<< 30-11-2017 >>
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02:27:50nim_newb@dom I see you are working on improving the json.to macro. Last time I used it, it did not work for all integer types. Is that expected or going to be fixed now?
02:29:23FromGitter<zacharycarter> that's not the right dom nim_newb just fyi
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02:31:11nim_newbAh. I meant @dom96
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02:44:23Tangero
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02:55:56FromGitter<RedBeard0531> Hi. I'm curious about the relationship between FileHandle/AsyncFD/AsyncFile. In particular, is doing something like this supposed to be valid? ⏎ let p = startProcess(cmd, options=flags) ⏎ let outputF = p.outputHandle.AsyncFD.newAsyncFile()
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03:40:06FromGitter<zacharycarter> https://imgur.com/a/q04rs
03:40:14FromGitter<zacharycarter> getting prerendered sprites down for ldjam :D
03:43:20FromGitter<RedBeard0531> Why does all() from asyncfutures use .callback= rather than addCallback? This seems like a bug since it will prevent waking anyone else waiting on one of those futures. https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/ff7cb3ec66d52f0a76a80273162b3bc4b049c2ae/lib/pure/asyncfutures.nim#L336 (and #L358)
03:50:07FromGitter<RedBeard0531> I am trying to build a graph of nodes and tracked down a hang in `await all inputs.map(build)` to that. Changing all() to use addCallback solved the issue.
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04:35:56FromGitter<Varriount> @RedBeard0531 It would probably be best to either ask when @dom96 is around, or post in the forum, or post an issue.
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04:49:19nim_newbwhat is the `--run` equivalent for `nimble build`
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05:30:38how_do_I_even_mahi, I see that the list is long, but is anybody in here active right now?
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05:31:08how_do_I_even_mathats the opposite of what I was hoping for but thats cool
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06:55:32skrylarmratsim: so.. any opinions on flexnets?
06:56:08skrylarit seems like with distinct types we could probably have fixed precision ints that were pretty easy to use
06:57:22FromGitter<mratsim> Didn't have time to read the paper yet. trying to release Arraymancer 0.3 this weekend.
07:06:00skrylarah.
07:06:18skrylarit sounds interesting but i don't know if i want to break all my tensors for it
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07:30:46skrylarmratsim: so am i correct in reading arraymancer has some magic thing where you can define math formulas like normal and its auto-arranging them in to calls
07:31:22skrylarmy old c# code didn't use tensors, so slower but read pretty easy. the nim version does but its all manually crammed in to like 4 scratch tensors and hand-converted
07:32:24FromGitter<mratsim> It's an autograd, operations are traced in a graph and when you call backprop it triggers backward propagation on the graph.
07:33:03skrylaroh. not quite what i was looking for
07:33:49skrylarstill just using torch7 style "simplenets" but it would be neat if i could just write the update formulas for GRUs instead of all this manual tensor_add tensor_mul stuff
07:34:37FromGitter<mratsim> Very short logistic regression example: https://github.com/mratsim/Arraymancer/blob/master/benchmarks/ex01_xor.nim
07:35:41FromGitter<mratsim> Or I directly exposes the primitives, here is torch vs Arraymancer: https://github.com/edubart/arraymancer-demos?files=1
07:36:05skrylarwell
07:37:09skrylar(hidden * value) + bias == scratch[0].set_mul(self.hidden, self.values); scratch[0].add(inputs, [...]) is more the pain in the arse
07:37:51skrylardid google register allocators and they are.. not simple
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08:03:40FromGitter<mratsim> Araq mentionned in the destructors blog post that it would be nice to lift `proc foo(a: Tensor, var result)` into something useable like this `let a = t.foo().foo().foo()` i.e. we can define the proc without a return variable but still use it in function chains like in Lua
08:04:27FromGitter<mratsim> sorry `proc foo(a: Tensor, result: var Tensor)`
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08:14:15skrylari just recently encountered a use case for call chains
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08:30:16FromGitter<mratsim> So GUI programming is a hue pain in Python as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/7gclo8/where_to_start_gui_programming/
08:30:21FromGitter<mratsim> huge*
08:34:23miran*hue paint :D
08:45:37FromGitter<Varriount> @mratsim I wonder how hard it would be to get UWP application running with Nim
08:45:48FromGitter<Varriount> (Universal Windows Application)
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08:55:03skrylarmratsim: gui programming is a pain everywhere.
08:55:14skrylari'm working on it, but ..
08:56:16skrylarmiglayout is deferred until i write this sparse matrix thing.
08:57:20skrylarthat implementation ought to endgame laying out widgets by hand, since it's pretty easy to define stuff with tables
08:57:47skrylarcobweb (which sorta half works but mostly crashes) does dataflow, so that should take away managing so much UI state by hand
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09:48:42FromGitter<tim-st> Another thing I didn't expect: I can use the iterator runes() and can compare each rune using a case but I cannot compare the runes by == operator, is that intended?
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09:52:26FromGitter<tim-st> Ok, I've seen now, that == is not defined on type Rune, although it's an int?!
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09:59:15FromGitter<mratsim> @skrylar, sparse matrix? Like Netflix's Vectorflow?
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10:07:05skrylarmratsim: haven't heard of it
10:07:27skrylari just need one to store when someone puts a tall grid element in somewhere and it can check that it needs to skip over that cell
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10:16:08FromGitter<tim-st> Nice, didn't know that!
10:21:14FromGitter<nitely> I think most things in strutils now have a `ASCII` suffix to prevent that issue. But maybe the old procs/iterators/templates are still there for a deprecation period. I've not checked.
10:22:07FromGitter<nitely> not only coz of that, but coz they only work with ASCII
10:23:46cremMost of functions in strutils also work with characters other than ascii! Only the categorization (like isSpaceAscii) functions only categorize ascii, that's why they are called that way.
10:24:23FromGitter<nitely> well, I meant the ones with the ASCII suffix, otherwise that would be qute misleading
10:24:32FromGitter<nitely> *quite
10:25:32FromGitter<nitely> There are lots of them isUpperAscii, toLowerAscii etc
10:26:07cremYes, those are geniune ASCII functions. :)
10:30:39FromGitter<tim-st> Does anyone has an idea how much slowdown runes() has vs. iterating over string index? Basically I'm not interested in every Rune I just want to detect them to know that the next char belongs to the previous..
10:31:07FromGitter<tim-st> for example "ä" has len 2 and "a" len 1
10:31:22FromGitter<andreaferretti> @mratsim I vote for RNN :-)
10:33:29cremFor UTF-8 string, you can just check two upper bits of the codeunit. If it's 10, then it's continuation, else it's first beginning of a codepoint.
10:34:01FromGitter<tim-st> @crem that's exactly what I wanted to know, what would be the code?
10:34:49FromGitter<tim-st> I'm not skilled with bits^^
10:36:20cremproc isUtf8Continuation(x: char): bool = return (x and 0xc) == 0x80
10:36:43FromGitter<tim-st> @crem Thank you very much!
10:37:26crem(not tested but should work). Returns false for first byte of utf-8 char, true for the rest.
10:37:51FromGitter<tim-st> do you know what is the max. len of a unicode continuation?
10:38:00FromGitter<tim-st> "ä" was 2 is there a longer one?
10:38:10cremHm, should char be converted to ints to be able to be compared to ints?...
10:38:18cremYes, 4 is the longest possible length
10:38:26cremhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Description
10:38:51FromGitter<tim-st> Thanks! That will speed up my code very much
10:39:13FromGitter<tim-st> Because I expect many ascii chars
10:39:46cremfixed: proc isUtf8Continuation(x: char): bool = return (x.int and 0xc) == 0x80
10:39:54crem(added .int)
10:39:56AraqI doubt it will speed up much, the runes iterator is no slug
10:40:28FromGitter<tim-st> @Araq Have now seen it in fastRuneAt, but will have a look
10:44:05cremI don't know what that depends on (readline library?), but in python REPL when I press up I go through history (also the line is editable, e.g. left-right arrows work), while `nim secret` just prints control codes.
10:46:42Araqkoch boot -d:release -d:useLinenoise
10:47:03Araqmaybe we can make it the default
10:47:48FromGitter<nitely> @tim-st be aware there are grapheme clusters, which are composed of many unicode characters although they visually look like a single character
10:51:35skrylari dont know if araq ever took any of that skutf stuff ig ave him
10:51:50Araqnope, sorry, lost it
10:51:51skrylari don't want to relive the unicode nightmare. already been there, learned about graphemes, and stremaing safe encodings, and bidi markers
10:52:14Araqunless it was some PR
10:52:20Araqthen I probably merged it
10:52:27skrylari don't think it was a pr
10:52:32skrylaryou said you wanted it and i dumped it somewhere
10:52:39skrylarif i see it again i'll poke it
10:52:47Araqty
10:53:26skrylartl;dr efficiency goes to hell when unicode is involved
10:53:44skrylartechnically unicode requires indefinite memory because there is no limit on how many diacritics can be on a single character
10:53:50skrylaryou can have 500eb of bytes for one letter
10:53:50cremOn my pre-previous job I wrote text layouting for bidirectional text! That's actually not that bad, Unicode standard describes it well.
10:54:25skrylarthe "stream safe" encoding is 20, so that's what i set the limit to, and had a grapheme iterator that did let you just say "for every grapheme in this string"
10:54:27FromGitter<nitely> there is a practical limit of 30 characters according to some of the unicode annex
10:54:42skrylarnitely: there's a subset with that rule yes
10:54:55FromGitter<tim-st> @nitely Ok thanks, I think when runes() is performant I will start with this iterator, btw. can I call Rune.char() on every rune? what would be the return value if the rune has len 2,3,4 for example?
10:55:20FromGitter<tim-st> Didn't find it here: https://nim-lang.org/docs/unicode.html#Rune
10:55:37skrylarAraq, https://github.com/Skrylar/skUnicode herp
10:56:28skrylarah yep, theres "iterator Utf8Graphemes"
10:56:30skrylar^______^
10:56:56FromGitter<nitely> @tim-st You cannot. Well you can, but won't work as expected. Use the `utf8` iterator if you just want the string version of unicode characters
10:57:20FromGitter<nitely> skrylar: https://github.com/nitely/nim-graphemes
10:57:26FromGitter<tim-st> No, I don't just want the string version, so it would throw an exception?
10:57:59skrylarnitely: nifty.
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10:58:24skrylari know i did something more recently with the old skylights code. not sure if skUnicode still compiles
10:58:30FromGitter<nitely> @tim-st It won't. `char` will truncate the int and return some nonsence
10:59:04FromGitter<tim-st> @nitely So the method is not good at all?
10:59:11FromGitter<nitely> It will work fine for unicode characters lower than 256
10:59:38FromGitter<nitely> the `char` for unicode? no. Don't use that for unicode
10:59:56skrylarimport vicodent
11:00:09FromGitter<tim-st> @nitely Ok, thank you!
11:00:32skrylarso unicode (utf8) is a series of uint8s which have a pseudo-huffman prefix for length
11:00:41skrylarand then on top of that, varible length elements
11:00:58Araqskrylar, thanks, looks useful
11:01:20skrylarAraq, when i looked (before you broke case styling >:|) you had most of whats in there, except the grapheme and safe-split stuff
11:02:31skrylarlooking over it, you do get utf-32 code points but they're unpacked and used for the grapheme object
11:02:50skrylari had some normalization code but that never got ported from C
11:04:33FromGitter<nitely> skrylar: how that graphemes iterator works without looking the unicode database??
11:05:05Araqany new unicode implementation should be generated from the unicode database so that updating it is easy
11:06:00FromGitter<nitely> skrylar: https://github.com/nitely/nim-normalize
11:06:07FromGitter<nitely> and https://github.com/nitely/nim-unicodedb
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11:06:13skrylaryou don't need the database for that
11:06:17FromGitter<nitely> Araq: but he ain't using no unicode database
11:06:19skrylardiacritics are above a certain range
11:06:34skrylari DID have the database, for normalization and case changing
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11:06:46skrylarwith a neat little ruby script where you could ask for a fat db or a slimmer one
11:06:53FromGitter<nitely> mmmh, did you tested it o the test data provided by the unicode consortium
11:07:05FromGitter<nitely> I've been lied if that works
11:07:14FromGitter<mratsim> @andreaferretti RNNs would be cool but marketing-wise OpenCL would be the first. I'm not aware of Numpy-like tensor library with first class OpenCL support.
11:07:32skrylari did rnns kinda.
11:07:36skrylarGRUs.
11:07:55skrylarI mean elman layers in C# but who uses those anymore?
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11:08:02skrylarusually when they say 'rnn' they mean 'lstm'
11:09:42skrylarnitely: technically they COULD add more diacritics outside the BMP plane, then skUnicode would be derpy about those
11:10:18skrylarSo would every other unicode app, which does a worse job on average
11:10:27skrylarex. .net/java with their 16-bit chars
11:11:12FromGitter<nitely> Does it work with nim 0.17? I'll try it and let you know
11:11:46skrylardoubt it. last time it was touched was many versions ago
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11:13:43FromGitter<nitely> if it does works, it does not make sence why would recommend using a DFA
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11:13:57FromGitter<nitely> *why would they recommend
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11:14:32skrylarthere are a lot of random things in that spec
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11:14:53skrylarone of which is like, a 400-rule setup for Korean
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11:16:04skrylarfor fun, actually try to put korean or japanese in to random programs some time
11:16:16skrylaryou'll find out a lot of "unicode aware" software butchers it completely
11:16:28skrylaror inconsistently supports it and then has random ???'s in the same window
11:23:36FromGitter<tim-st> btw is there any downside/difference in using a += 1 instead of inc(a) ?
11:24:11Araqmaybe slower debug builds
11:24:37FromGitter<tim-st> but the compiler should translate it the same, or?
11:24:56FromGitter<nitely> skrylar: there's at least a few graphemes that code won't work on. Emojis.
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11:25:52skrylarnitely: it was always called conversational for a reason
11:25:56FromGitter<nitely> Some do not have a character combinator
11:26:08skrylarwell you mean emojis as in lenny?
11:26:31FromGitter<nitely> I mean unicode emojis
11:26:43skrylar( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) is multiple graphemes
11:26:55FromGitter<nitely> http://unicode.org/emoji/charts/full-emoji-list.html
11:27:17skrylarbrowsers trying to load it
11:27:21FromGitter<nitely> that's not an emoji according to unicode though
11:27:29FromGitter<nitely> ahahaha
11:27:33skrylargoing to hazard a guess that those are outside the BMP plane
11:28:23FromGitter<nitely> :P
11:28:38skrylarthe original skUtf code (which was C99, and partly ported as skUnicode) carried with it a warning that non-BMP stuff was where dragons lay
11:29:03skrylarthe rule that just checks the numbers was also there for if you *didn't* include the database module
11:29:29skrylarbecause the database is like 60mb or some shit, and ~1mb when selectively trimmed and using weird indexes
11:29:59FromGitter<nitely> there are techniques to make it waaaay lighter
11:30:10skrylari used them
11:30:15skrylarit's still megabytes.
11:30:24FromGitter<nitely> https://github.com/nitely/nim-unicodedb#sizes
11:30:30FromGitter<nitely> take a look
11:30:43skrylarthe ruby script had an option to do one that was 'just' diacritics and casing, no names and it merged some stuff
11:30:57skrylari forget the name of the technique that was also involved to get the size of indexes down
11:31:14FromGitter<nitely> multi-stage tables
11:31:27Araqnitely, nice things. any chance of getting some of that into the stdlib?
11:31:44FromGitter<nitely> all of it. If you want it
11:31:58skrylartime to bookmark multistage tables all over again
11:32:09Araqis it compatible with unicode.nim?
11:33:08FromGitter<nitely> It is
11:33:49FromGitter<nitely> I would put the unicodedb in its own module though
11:34:29FromGitter<nitely> well that's what python does. There's not really a reason to
11:36:11Araqown module would be good, not sure though the existing unicode does have some lookup tables
11:36:16Araqoutdated ones.
11:37:49FromGitter<nitely> although go-lang does not has all of this (normalize, graphemes, etc) in the stdlib and it's doing fine..
11:38:12FromGitter<nitely> another option would making it an official library or something
11:41:03Araqanother official unicode package is fine with me, but what do we do about keeping unicode.nim up to date?
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11:44:56Araqugh, my shared pointers finally compile...
11:45:07Araqthat was a pita to implement
11:46:39Araqspeaking of which how do I get an atomic swap in C++?
11:47:32FromGitter<nitely> Araq: I dunno how the current tables where generated for the unicode module, but I would guess that's how you would keep them up to date
11:48:05AraqI took them from Plan 9 manually XD
11:48:16FromGitter<nitely> hahahaha XD
11:49:13skrylarwell.. plan 9 did many goods.
11:52:35cremAraq: in C++ you can only atomically swap std::atomic<T>s (with atomic_exchange).
11:53:36Araqcrem, my goal is that swap(p1, p2) can be used to exchange pointers in a threaded program
11:54:00Araqbut I read it requires double CAS which C++ doesn't have since the hardware usually doesn't offer it
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12:35:17FromGitter<RedBeard0531> @tim-st if you expect mostly
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12:44:21FromGitter<RedBeard0531> (Blarg didn't mean to hit send yet) @tim-st if you expect mostly ascii and care about perf you should try to avoid doing byte-by-byte or rune-by-rune processing. Utf8 is amenable to simd processing of 16 bytes at a time. As an example of case folding in simd https://github.com/mongodb/mongo/blob/master/src/mongo/db/fts/unicode/string.cpp#L170-L256
12:47:50FromGitter<RedBeard0531> I was somewhat sad to see that all of the string processing in the stdlib was byte by byte. @Araq any plans to add native simd support to the language?
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12:56:55AraqPRs welcome
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13:00:28FromGitter<RedBeard0531> I can pr the algorithms, but I don't feel comfortable adding simd to the core language. I only started using nim a week ago :)
13:01:19Araqwell it's not that you won't get any help with the PRs
13:05:32FromGitter<Varriount> How good are C/C++ compilers at vectorization?
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13:06:46cremYou can test at https://godbolt.org/, generally pretty good.
13:06:54cremEspecially clang.
13:07:15FromGitter<RedBeard0531> meh
13:08:07FromGitter<RedBeard0531> they can do a lot (sometimes borderline magical) but they also trip own their own feet frequently enough
13:09:36FromGitter<RedBeard0531> Also, they can't rewrite the algorithm to be more simd-friendly. They also aren't allowed to read any bytes of memory that they can't prove would be read otherwise. This gets really hard when you need to call out to other functions in your slow path.
13:10:28FromGitter<Varriount> @RedBeard0531 I'm all for a "SIMD" module, however one has to keep in mind that Nim has backends other than C/C++
13:11:53FromGitter<RedBeard0531> Sure, I assume there'd be something like a `when simd:` block. You always need the byte-by-byte fallback for short strings anyway.
13:12:59FromGitter<RedBeard0531> Also https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/SIMD :) (although I now see that attempt was aborted)
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13:19:18FromGitter<mratsim> You can ask jcosborn or jlp675 (something like that): https://github.com/jcosborn/qex/blob/master/src/simd/simdAvx.nim
13:21:20FromGitter<mratsim> Btw there is an article currently on HN about Faster, a Rust simd wrapper. And a discussion about runtime feature detection. (Not unlike what is talked about in the forum)
13:25:14FromGitter<mratsim> Also one of the best way to ensure efficient code is to use restrict and builtin_assume_aligned
13:28:59FromGitter<RedBeard0531> Actually gcc generates better code (at least for avx-capable cpus) if you tell it to assume that the buffer is completely *unaligned*. AVX has full support for unaligned access, but gcc still tries *really* hard to inject an alignment prolog/epilog. I once benchmarked a 2x improvement in a trivial example by adding a pragma to indicate that the buffer was unaligned.
13:30:15FromGitter<RedBeard0531> and many string processing algorithms rely on unaligned reads
13:30:34FromGitter<mratsim> It doesn't use avx2 instructions if it's unaligned though
13:31:14FromGitter<alehander42> Araq: I am adding js codegenDecl support currently ⏎ The ref says ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` ⏎ ... [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5a2008223ae2aa6b3f6c20d0]
13:31:24FromGitter<mratsim> Well I don't know for strings I only tested for numrical computing.
13:38:02dom96alehander42: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/6841#issuecomment-348189957
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13:45:03FromGitter<alehander42> @dom96 overally, `emit` was the wrong tool for changing codegen for a function delcaration and `codegenDecl` seems perfect, so I am adding support for `codegenDecl` in the js backend
13:45:25dom96yes, I see that
13:45:30dom96I still don't think this is necessary however :)
13:45:47dom96So please answer my question
13:46:02dom96oh, I see you did
13:46:28FromGitter<alehander42> yep, I fail to see why do you expect `{.emit.}` to be generated immediately before a function
13:46:46dom96what I have in mind is to generate the entire function and put it in an emit
13:47:13FromGitter<alehander42> how can I generate the js source of a function in a macro ?
13:47:22dom96but now that I think about it some more that would be a lot of duplication
13:47:24Araqthat JS doesn't support .codegenDecl is an inconsistency anyway
13:47:27FromGitter<alehander42> (and still a codegenDecl solution seems more beautiful for me)
13:48:03dom96oh, I thought it was a new feature
13:48:12dom96since it exists already then sure, sounds perfect
13:48:26FromGitter<alehander42> ah yeah it seems to work for C
13:48:35Araqeven better. It's a documented feature :-)
13:49:23FromGitter<alehander42> yeah, so again, Araq: for codegenDecl and js the first parameter (return type) doesn't make much sense: should I always keep it an empty string?
13:50:05Araqnot sure, how does asm.js annotate the return type? it doesn't, right?
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13:50:35Araqto keep it future proof it seems wise to map the return type in .codegenDecl
13:50:51Araqeven though it's currently impossible to make use of
13:50:57FromGitter<alehander42> > An asm.js function's formal return type is determined by the last statement in the function body, which for non-void functions is required to be a ReturnStatement. This distinguished return statement may take one of five forms:
13:51:21FromGitter<alehander42> ok
13:51:40Araqomg, asm.js is an abomination
13:51:42dom96also, it seems that 'await' support is actually pretty good https://caniuse.com/#search=await
13:52:00dom9671% support based on usage
13:52:46Araq71% is pretty good
13:53:30dom96Another thing regarding the PR: can we avoid introducing a new module and implement this in asyncdispatch?
13:54:23Araqnot wise, it would be a long 'when defined(js): ... else: ...' section
13:54:40Araqyou can move the impls to include files
13:55:07Araqbut it's still messy. maybe we just switch the stdlib path for the JS target
13:57:17dom96we already have a 'when' in asyncdispatch
13:57:45FromGitter<alehander42> I am not sure which option is better, another idea I had was to include it in `jsffi` as people usually import it for js code
13:58:09FromGitter<alehander42> including it in asyncdispatch doesn't sound bad too
13:59:08dom96the idea is to allow code written for the C backend to work on the JS backend as well
13:59:10dom96(as much as possible)
13:59:36Araqasyncfile -- impossible?
13:59:44Araqasync sockets -- possible?
13:59:51dom96some modules are impossible indeed
14:00:22AraqJS is a messy target I would keep the core libraries clean tbh
14:01:10dom96it will be clean, it will all be under a define
14:01:27FromGitter<alehander42> maybe including an asyncjs file in asyncdispatch for defined(js) would be a good compromise
14:02:41FromGitter<RedBeard0531> Since asyncdispatch was mentioned, is there any way to get the generated docs to be better? They seem to be missing a *lot* of the available functionality. For example, the Future type can't be found and the ability to wait on Events and processes is only visible if you go read all the code.
14:03:09Araqthe ability to wait on events and processes is new
14:03:24Araqdocs are constantly improving
14:03:45Araqmore automatic linking is probably the next big thing the docgen needs to do
14:03:47dom96RedBeard0531: please create issues for these sorts of things
14:05:57FromGitter<RedBeard0531> Are the docs supposed to represent master or 0.17.2? The source links go to master, so that is what I end up reading when I dig in.
14:06:07dom960.17.2 == master
14:07:58*FromGitter * RedBeard0531 must have flipped to devel when browsing github at some point last night. That explains a lot... :-/
14:09:12FromGitter<RedBeard0531> oh, its the default branch. So if you enter from docs you go to master, if you enter from github you go to devel.
14:10:56FromGitter<RedBeard0531> @dom96 (reposting from last night now that you are online) Why does all() from asyncfutures use .callback= rather than addCallback? This seems like a bug since it will prevent waking anyone else waiting on one of those futures. https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/ff7cb3ec66d52f0a76a80273162b3bc4b049c2ae/lib/pure/asyncfutures.nim#L336 (and #L358) ⏎ I am trying to build a graph of nodes and tracked down a hang in
14:10:56FromGitter... `await all inputs.map(build)` to that. Changing all() to use addCallback solved the issue.
14:11:12nivTWIMC, nim is used to build the data files for a recent game release (Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition)! https://github.com/niv/neverwinter_utils.nim it has saved us SO much time.
14:11:43Araqwth ... that is awesome :-)
14:12:33dom96RedBeard0531: addCallback is a relatively recent addition, please make an issue for this or better yet a PR :)
14:12:34nivthe old tooling was in c++ from 15 years ago, partially lost in time. rewriting it took me a couple of days and it was totally worth it.
14:13:27FromGitter<RedBeard0531> @dom96 will do. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't intentional and I was missing some subtlety.
14:14:20dom96niv: ooh, didn't realise you were making an enhanced edition for Neverwinter Nights! :O
14:14:28nivconsider yourself informed!
14:16:30dom96Can I tweet about it? :)
14:16:40nivfeel free
14:16:56nivtag #neverwinternights and @beamdog if you want to ;)
14:18:45dom96done
14:19:07nivfancy, with a pic. awesome.
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14:19:29nim_newb@dom96 :point_up: [November 30, 2017 7:57 AM](https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5a1f6ca6ba39a53f1aff9834)
14:20:17dom96nim_newb: yes, thanks. I saw that. You should really create issues for this sort of thing though. Do you have a code sample that reproduces the problem?
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14:20:39nim_newbI had a code sample. let me check.
14:20:45FromGitter<zacharycarter> I <3 NWN
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14:22:45FromGitter<mratsim> Baldur's Gate > NWN.
14:22:46dom96I still need to play some Baldur's Gate: Enhanced edition ;)
14:22:57nivme too, if it's any consolation
14:23:30FromGitter<zacharycarter> Baldur's Gate is great but NWN was special
14:23:48FromGitter<zacharycarter> mostly because of the ability to create your own campaigns and play online, this of course was before BG:EE
14:24:12FromGitter<zacharycarter> @dom96 - Did you see my pre-rendered sprite from last night?
14:24:21niv@zacharycarter: online community is still going fairly strong, with peak players of about 600/day
14:24:50FromGitter<zacharycarter> @niv if I didn't spend all my time making games / tooling I'd probably try to get involved
14:25:05nivhttps://neverwintervault.org/
14:25:20FromGitter<zacharycarter> thanks
14:25:22dom96zacharycarter: nope, link?
14:25:37FromGitter<zacharycarter> https://imgur.com/a/q04rs
14:26:05FromGitter<zacharycarter> just using mixamo and blender - but I think it will allow me to quickly pump out isometric sprite art for LD
14:26:26nim_newb@dom96 Here is an example https://play.nim-lang.org/?gist=916724ab3aa3c4e676311fb427773dd5
14:27:00dom96nim_newb: thanks, i'll fix it
14:27:20Araqonce it's fixed we need to optimize it ...
14:27:50Araqit creates the full JSON and then converts it to native Nim types, that's not required
14:27:58nim_newb@dom96 - this issue is also for float types
14:28:09FromGitter<mratsim> Yeah I probably spent more time creating monsters and maps in NWN than coding in Nim (for now). The Aurora engine was awesome.
14:28:27FromGitter<zacharycarter> agreed
14:28:52FromGitter<mratsim> For BG2 I'm quite content with the base BG2 + mods like SCS (sword coast stratagems).
14:29:01nivif you want to get involved with the EE, check out the beamdog forums instead. more activity related to that.
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14:30:04FromGitter<zacharycarter> niv: do you work for beamdog?
14:30:14nivyes
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14:30:24FromGitter<zacharycarter> Cool :D Any Nim programmer job openings?
14:30:27FromGitter<mratsim> Now if NWN 1 is rewritten in Nim hum hum, maybe I'll build neural networks for NWN :D. What do you think @skrylar?
14:30:35nivhaha. i'll post here if that ever happens.
14:30:43dom96Araq: You mean you want it to use only the json parser directly?
14:30:50FromGitter<zacharycarter> :D sweet!
14:30:51Araqyes
14:30:57dom96Araq: PRs welcome ;)
14:31:10nivnwn1 in nim? omg. i can't even imagine the amount of work that would be.
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14:31:55FromGitter<mratsim> I meant an API, scripting engine or something.
14:32:21Araqdom96, in retrospect I wonder why we didn't adapt marshal.nim to use getType()
14:32:37nivwait a week or so and we'll have nwnx ported over. (tl;dr: a preloadable for the server that allows you to do anything you want to it)
14:33:20dom96niv: what does the rest of beamdog think of Nim? :)
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14:33:46nivhappy with the tooling. and it's better than D.
14:34:12dom96awesome
14:34:23dom96means we're doing something right :)
14:34:45nivit's not really widely used or anything. this is the only project so far, and the main driver behind it was me.
14:34:53nivbut It Works(tm)
14:36:04FromGitter<mratsim> I'm pretty sure a blog post on that would be a hit in r/gaming, r/programming and HN.
14:36:15dom96^^
14:36:29FromGitter<mratsim> Might be too much pressure after though.
14:36:41dom96Happy to accept a guest post on nim-lang.org if you're up for it :)
14:36:52nivhrrrrmmmh
14:38:44PMunchCool to see that more and more people are using Nim for actual serious stuff :)
14:41:17FromGitter<mratsim> "serious" + games ? Some might disagree ;).
14:41:38PMunchSerious as in business serious, not as in application serious :)
14:42:02nivoh, nwn is quite is SRZ BIZNEZ if you listen to some online community members
14:42:22PMunchHaha, I don't doubt it
14:43:56Araqniv, GC vs no-GC?
14:44:14nivdefinitely GC as far as I am concerned. the nim GC gets out of the way nicely
14:46:16PMunchniv, make sure to give me a call if you need more nim devs in the future :)
14:46:35nivif i were writing a realtime game that has hard limits for each frame, i might reconsider. haven't evaluated the GC from that standpoint. but for tooling and network server daemons, it's great.
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14:48:18AraqI'm thinking about a data driven approach for MM but so far no good ideas came up
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14:52:19FromGitter<mratsim> MM ? Matrix Multiplication :D?
14:52:26PMunchWould be fun to get into game-dev again :)
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14:53:36FromGitter<mratsim> Some of the game devs articles in the past months were quite depressing (the one about Mass Effect Andromeda, the one from Kotaku about the rampant burnout and project management issues).
14:54:09PMunchmratsim, links?
14:56:09FromGitter<mratsim> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/opinion/work-culture-video-games-crunch.html
14:56:14Araqmratsim: memory management
14:56:51FromGitter<mratsim> https://kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428
14:59:48FromGitter<RedBeard0531> Is running `setGlobalDispatcher newDispatcher()` supposed to be required? Adding that line seems to shave a fixed ~500ms from my execution time.
15:00:20PMunchHmm crunch is pretty normal in many IT fields isn't it? Not exclusively limited to games
15:00:53FromGitter<zacharycarter> Game dev crunch is definitely far worse
15:01:08FromGitter<zacharycarter> although I know non game devs that work for Amazon who have hellish working hours
15:01:16PMunchAlthough since games have a broader audience I guess many game developers would get more personally invested with the product
15:01:27FromGitter<zacharycarter> I think a lot of it depends on the company and publisher behind the game
15:01:36PMunchzacharycarter, well Amazon isn't known to be the best company to work for..
15:02:01FromGitter<zacharycarter> true
15:02:07PMunchzacharycarter, definitely. I wonder as well how early access games are in this regard
15:02:56PMunchWith no firm deadline and more continuous development I'd guess it could stave of some of that crunch pressure
15:03:12FromGitter<zacharycarter> Maybe - I think game dev in itself is a long grind
15:03:19FromGitter<zacharycarter> You're working on a concept for years at a time
15:03:51FromGitter<zacharycarter> It's tough not to get distracted / bored / frustrated with a single project for that length of time
15:06:06PMunchYeah, I noticed that when I started programming games when I was younger. You'd think of all these great ideas and start working. After a while the core was done and working, and it was time to add all the content. But by then I had already thought of a new cool idea and ditched the last project.
15:06:21PMunchGot a lot of programming experience from it, but not that many actual games :P
15:08:09FromGitter<tim-st> @RedBeard0531 Thanks for the link, that's interesting!
15:09:11FromGitter<tim-st> I'm wondering what's best to close a filestream automatically, that is used inside an object. Is this done by gc?
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15:10:51FromGitter<tim-st> The filestream should stay open as long the object lives
15:11:11Araqcurrently you need to write a finalizer for this to work
15:11:41FromGitter<tim-st> Is there an example for a "finalizer" in nim?
15:11:54FromGitter<tim-st> Maybe in the docs
15:11:59dom96RedBeard0531: that shouldn't be necessary
15:13:22FromGitter<tim-st> I read that Python GC closes the file object automatically and file.close is not necessary in Python
15:13:33FromGitter<tim-st> I thought maybe nim would have a similar effect
15:15:53dom96does it? Why does Python have a 'with' statement then? :)
15:17:47FromGitter<tim-st> The with statement calls *exit* on the object but I read that this doesn't have an effect at all because of gc, but maybe I'm not 100% correct, I remember some guys on sx texted it
15:18:11federico3tim-st: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4599980/python-close-file-descriptor-question
15:19:37FromGitter<tim-st> @federico3 yes, that was the page^^
15:20:06FromGitter<tim-st> "Strictly speaking, using with is not "explicitly" closing the file"
15:21:31FromGitter<tim-st> Nonetheless, I'm not sure how to solve this. Maybe someone implemented it before on FileStream.
15:24:34FromGitter<RedBeard0531> @dom96 https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/6846
15:27:57FromGitter<RedBeard0531> @dom96 @tim-st python's with is for *deterministic* destruction. It is guaranteed by the language to happen at the end of the with block. The finalizes are a fallback and are non-deterministic. (It happens that they are deterministic in CPython because it uses ref-counting, but the language explicitly allows other kinds of GC and that doesn't hold for pypy or jython)
15:29:17FromGitter<RedBeard0531> See http://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/cpython_differences.html#differences-related-to-garbage-collection-strategies for much more details
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15:30:52FromGitter<tim-st> @RedBeard0531 Ok, but in fact I never heard of a finalizer and because of this don't know how to implement it. The following alternatives are possible: 1) Always reopen and reclose the file for each method call. 2) if nim closes the file through gc after object not used, jsut ignore it 3) let the file open as long the process runs
15:31:12dom96tim-st: what are you trying to solve?
15:31:22dom96a finalizer is just a callback you specify to the new() proc
15:31:28dom96(when you're allocating a GC'd ref)
15:31:54FromGitter<tim-st> ""
15:32:00FromGitter<tim-st> "I'm wondering what's best to close a filestream automatically, that is used inside an object. Is this done by gc? ⏎ The filestream should stay open as long the object lives"
15:32:25FromGitter<wdecoster> Hi, I have experience in Python and would like to learn a second language for speeding up some more computationally heavy parts, while keeping it integrated with the Python code. Would something like that be possible with Nim?
15:33:19dom96tim-st: new(YourRefObjectType, proc (x: YourRefObjectType) = x.file.close()
15:33:20dom96https://nim-lang.org/docs/system.html#new,ref.T,proc%28ref.T%29
15:34:00FromGitter<tim-st> @dom96 Thanks, that looks easier than I thought :)
15:34:25dom96wdecoster: yep, this talk might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVgNVJdizHg&feature=youtu.be
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15:38:55FromGitter<wdecoster> Thanks for the link!
15:39:24FromGitter<tim-st> @dom96 Maybe it would be good if the line you wrote, could be added to the streams doc, I think people who come from Python will ask the same because they first reach the streams manual: https://nim-lang.org/docs/streams.html
15:44:53dom96I'm about to head out to lecture, so maybe you could make a PR for that? :)
15:46:07FromGitter<tim-st> @dom96 I'm not really familiar with Github but will try
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15:52:49FromGitter<Varriount> @Araq @dom96 Do we still have project files?
15:53:19FromGitter<Varriount> I'm updating NimLime's project file support, and want to know if it's still a thing.
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16:03:20Demos[m]Presumably the kernel closes filehandles at process teardown
16:11:01FromGitter<alehander42> hey @Varriount I often have this problem when NimLime generates new files with output in my sublime, is it a known bug ?
16:11:15FromGitter<alehander42> (otherwise thanks for the excellent plugin)
16:13:12FromGitter<Varriount> @alehander42 Are you using OSX?
16:13:20FromGitter<alehander42> ubuntu 16.10
16:13:24FromGitter<Varriount> Hrm.
16:13:35FromGitter<Varriount> What happens if you completely restart Sublime Text?
16:14:17FromGitter<alehander42> i have this trick that I do one nim c after I open sublime and before saving any nim file but I am not sure if it's connected somehow
16:14:28FromGitter<alehander42> well usually it works fine then
16:15:01FromGitter<Varriount> There's a problem with how Sublime Text is firing setting change notifications that causes it.
16:15:13FromGitter<Varriount> I'm planning on fixing it today.
16:16:30FromGitter<alehander42> no problem, gl
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16:22:23FromGitter<mratsim> @tim-st use finalized if your type is ref object or a destructor (`=destroy`) if your type is an object
16:22:32FromGitter<mratsim> Finalizer*
16:23:57FromGitter<tim-st> @mratsim Thanks for your help, will try it
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16:31:45nim_newbwhy am i getting `Error: unhandled exception: len(ver) == 0 or contains({0, 35, 48..57}, ver[0]) Wrong version: master\build [AssertionError]` when i run `nake` in https://github.com/yglukhov/nimx/tree/master/test folder?
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16:53:16nivdom96: you wrote asyncnet, if i recall? got a sec to answer a question?
16:55:02Araqvarriount: nimsuggest detects the project when you pass it a directory
16:55:11Araqbut these still exist, yes
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17:23:08dom96niv: don't ask to ask, just ask
17:24:13niveh. i'm confused. apparently, dial() returns with the connected socket, but recvLine() fails with "" (meaning socket disconnected) immediately after.
17:24:27nivthis goes on through a couple dozen loops until it finally connects for real.
17:25:04nivi'm sure i'm doing something horrible.
17:25:49nivif you could cross-check me i'd appreciate it, i have been banging my head against this for the past two hours. code: https://gist.github.com/niv/7576e958ff0dce050a436c28934c504c output: https://gist.github.com/niv/3853e9bf871f7646c7a7f49c2269ddb5
17:28:43nivreally easy to repro: just kill the serverside daemon (nats) while the loop is running. it'll try to connect rapidly until suddenly noticing it's not actually working
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17:42:00dom96I guess I'd need to install this NATS thing :\
17:42:30nivdo you have docker?
17:42:37dom96nope
17:42:43nivdrats.
17:42:58nivwell it should be a single static binary you can run
17:43:01dom96instead of testing with such a large app, write just a simple reproduction of this
17:43:21nivsure.
17:43:31dom96it'll help you diagnose the problem
17:43:40dom96but I wonder how you got this far if you've had such issues
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17:46:55nivthats a bit harsh.
17:50:33dom96Sorry, I didn't mean it in a harsh way! :/
17:55:06nivdom96 figured it out. its docker-proxy.
17:55:26nivit kills first the demon, then the proxy, but the proxy port is still open while the backing service shuts down
17:56:27dom96Awesome. Glad you worked it out :)
17:57:22nivsome days .. i hate all software.
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17:58:33FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Even my Windoze?
17:58:44FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I love Windoze 24/7. Gives me so much freedom
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18:12:25jjidoI think it is called windows 365
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18:18:21rbrtso this seems to work https://gist.github.com/jrwells/3669e151b04803e6c51405be2926e381
18:18:58rbrtcan i make the wrapper proc more simple?
18:20:12rbrtalso, im not 100% on why i need to pass in a ref
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18:28:12dom96rbrt: probably because a non-ref object lives on the stack
18:28:18dom96so it disappears once the function returns
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18:44:18rbrtdom96 lol of course! that makes sense
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18:52:06rbrtoh actually i was wondering why i've been unable to create a new ref inside the proc (vs passing in a ref and changing what the ref refers to)
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18:53:14rbrt(using ref now, but haven't been able to get it to work with ptr either)
18:59:58dom96why can't you?
19:02:16rbrti guess i've just been unable to figure out how, probably messing up the syntax
19:04:17dom96show me what you're trying :)
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20:52:25copygirlHereos and Generals, a P2W MMOFPS
20:55:16FromGitter<zacharycarter> ?
20:55:18copygirlWrong channel, apologies.
20:55:30FromGitter<zacharycarter> hehe Hereos
20:55:35FromGitter<zacharycarter> sounds like a cookie
20:55:49FromGitter<zacharycarter> or a breakfast cereal
20:56:05copygirlMhhh *drools*
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22:18:46FromGitter<Quelklef> What's happening when I set a proc var to an overloaded proc?
22:19:11FromGitter<Quelklef> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5a2083df71ad3f87364ea167]
22:19:47Araqthe compiler disambiguates properly as your example shows
22:20:07FromGitter<Quelklef> Sure, but why's the error message say what it does?
22:20:38FromGitter<Quelklef> I can get why it doesn't work conceptually, 'cause I'm not specifying a type, but the error seems to report something else
22:20:38Araqthe set of overloads has the type "None" ?
22:20:57Araqerror messages could always be better
22:21:15Araqbut guess what in this stage of the compiler we lost the AST and only know the type
22:21:33FromGitter<Quelklef> o shit
22:21:41FromGitter<Quelklef> i dont think i know enough about compilers
22:21:49Araqerror messages are not bad because we're mean.
22:22:07Araqthey are bad because they often abstraction breaking within the compiler's code
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22:23:04FromGitter<Quelklef> often? is that a typo or am i not reading this right
22:23:39Araqtypo
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22:24:23Araq"they are bad because often in order to make them better you would need to break the internal abstractions"
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22:24:50Araqlike passing an AST around instead of a type just so that we can generate better error messages.
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22:27:16FromGitter<Quelklef> Oh like during type checking?
22:27:29Araqyes
22:28:30FromGitter<Quelklef> makes sense
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