<< 05-05-2023 >>
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02:00:34FromDiscord<ieltan> What's flatbuffers?
02:00:49FromDiscord<ieltan> Nvm I'll just rtfm
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02:03:56FromDiscord<Rika> Woah what cool
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07:51:33FromDiscord<luteva> Hi! Does anyone know how to start an external programm (a server process) and keep it running? When I try to start an external programm it immidiately goes into <defunct> state. so, how do i do this?
07:58:34advesperacityou could try something like this https://pastebin.com/raw/mVhw0yPT
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08:35:02FromDiscord<luteva> thx i'm gonna have a look at it.
09:37:54om3gaHi! do we have memory profiling tools?
09:38:45om3ganimprof seems only calculates perf vise statistics
09:51:09om3gafound this: --stackTrace:on -d:memProfiler --gc:regions
09:53:52PMunchIf you use -d:useMalloc I believe you can use C-based memory profiling tools
09:54:37PMunchMaybe with `--debuger:native` as well, not sure how much info those need
09:54:53om3gaPMunch: aha, thanks
09:55:29om3gaI use malloc, the program can be little bit slow, but it is ram usage sensitive
10:03:27om3gawow, with enabled profiler it works very slowly
10:22:10PMunchSure profiling slows things down
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10:22:31PMunchAnd yeah, malloc can also slow things down, there's a reason why it's not the default
10:23:59FromDiscord<ezquerra> In reply to @Recruit_main707 "i dont know if": That is awesome! We do use them 🙂
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10:38:14NimEventerNew thread by alexeypetrushin: Why operator template doesn't work?, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10170
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11:05:41FromDiscord<ezquerra> In reply to @Recruit_main707 "i dont know if": I just tried the latest flatc compiler and it does seem to work (i.e. you can generate nim code from a .fbs file). However, the generated code does include an "import flatbuffers" line. I see that in the flatbuffers source distribution there is a nimble package but I does not seem to be "published" (i.e. it cannot be installed by a simple `nimble install flatbuffers`)?
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12:07:08FromDiscord<abdu> List please nim ritten best app. ?
12:07:21FromDiscord<abdu> (edit) "ritten" => "written"
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12:25:36Amun-Raabdu: https://github.com/ringabout/awesome-nim
12:25:57Amun-Rathat's usually called "awesome <insert-term-here>"
12:26:07PMunch"best"
12:26:23Amun-Raright
12:26:41PMunchA very subjective measurement
12:38:42NimEventerNew thread by cmc: Good Languages Borrow, Great Languages Nim, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10171
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12:55:11FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> Is there any way to use pandoc in nim other than running commands. Like a libpandoc or smth
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13:03:14FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @not logged in "Is there any way": I found this just now, but it's been stale for about 6 years: https://github.com/ShabbyX/libpandoc
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15:35:54FromDiscord<RaycatWhoDat> Nim is such a cool language. It does almost everything you could want but, because it's not Rust, people tend to dismiss it on its face. It's a shame, really.
15:37:53FromDiscord<RaycatWhoDat> I say this as someone who has gone through a rotation of languages like Haxe, D, Nelua, Raku, and even Rust, evaluating each as a language to pair with Lua.
15:38:11FromDiscord<RaycatWhoDat> (edit) "I say this as someone who has gone through a rotation of languages like Haxe, D, Nelua, Raku, and even Rust, evaluating each as a language to pair with Lua. ... " added "(I'm a web/mobile dev.)"
15:44:37FromDiscord<emanresu3> imo nim has the best syntax and features of any language I know of
15:45:29FromDiscord<emanresu3> but tooling is lagging behind, whereas rust tooling is the best I know of
15:46:36FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> does anyone know where are nim packages stored in windows ?
15:46:44FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> the ones installed by nimble i mean
15:47:27FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> nimble readme says its stored in my appdata roaming, but i dont see nimble there
15:50:33FromDiscord<emanresu3> what does `nimble path <somepackage>` show?↵(@⚶ Zeno)
15:51:32FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> In reply to @emanresu3 "what does `nimble path": oh it is in my user directory, alright thanks mate
15:52:59FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> (edit) "directory," => "directory itself,"
15:59:29FromDiscord<PunchCake> Guys if i plan on using nim in production would i have a hard time finding nim devs?
16:06:32FromDiscord<federico3> Good question. There's probably much more offer (of Nim devs) than demand.
16:12:55FromDiscord<PunchCake> I plan on using it with qml
16:13:05FromDiscord<PunchCake> Since i dont really wanna mess with C++ anymore
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16:36:42FromDiscord<Ayy Lmao> Is there a way to inject a type into a module at compiletime without having to deal with wrapping the whole thing up in a template or macro?
16:38:48FromDiscord<PunchCake> Isnt that the point of macros?
16:42:36FromDiscord<Ayy Lmao> In reply to @PunchCake "Isnt that the point": A macro would work but it is exploding the complexity of my code.
16:42:57FromDiscord<PunchCake> In reply to @Ayy Lmao "A macro would work": Bro so your code is a mess?
16:43:52FromDiscord<Ayy Lmao> In reply to @PunchCake "Bro so your code": Pretty much. I'm trying to un-mess it.
16:44:05FromDiscord<PunchCake> Can i see whats it looking like
16:45:52FromDiscord<auxym> In reply to @PunchCake "Guys if i plan": a few companies are using reddit in prod (reddit, exercism, status, etc). I suspect that they mostly hire people without a specific background of Nim but willing to learn
16:46:05FromDiscord<auxym> (edit) "reddit" => "nim"
16:46:22FromDiscord<Ayy Lmao> In reply to @PunchCake "Can i see whats": If you want. I'm making an audio plugin and trying to abstract a framework. https://github.com/Alkamist/clap/blob/main/clap/audioplugin.nim
16:46:24FromDiscord<PunchCake> Yeah nim is easy to learn
16:46:58FromDiscord<PunchCake> In reply to @Ayy Lmao "If you want. I'm": My brother what is this mess
16:47:15FromDiscord<PunchCake> Only a complete rewrite would save
16:47:15FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> In reply to @PunchCake "Yeah nim is easy": i slightly disagree, the docs and error messages can give one hard time
16:47:29FromDiscord<Ayy Lmao> In reply to @PunchCake "Only a complete rewrite": That's what I'm doing.
16:48:20FromDiscord<PunchCake> In reply to @QuiteQuietQ "i slightly disagree, the": I mean wouldn't take more than a week to learn nim for an experienced programmer
16:48:25FromDiscord<Ayy Lmao> A complication is the fact that Nim doesn't seem to be able to export a variable.
16:48:46FromDiscord<PunchCake> Export?
16:48:59FromDiscord<PunchCake> You mean importing a variable from one file to another?
16:49:19FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> In reply to @auxym "a few companies are": what do you all think is the future of Nim? is it starting to get noticed more? it is about 5 years since version 1.0 already.. do you know the community's opinion and how is the development going, since one of the main devs left?
16:49:47FromDiscord<Ayy Lmao> In reply to @PunchCake "You mean importing a": Exporting an external symbol in a shared lib.
16:50:02FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> In reply to @PunchCake "I mean wouldn't take": yeah, that is true↵i would not recommend it to a beginner, though
16:50:34FromDiscord<PunchCake> In reply to @QuiteQuietQ "what do you all": Nim isnt really gonna be popular ever, it lacks corporate backing↵↵I think it would still be in the same niche langs like elm and crystal
16:54:04FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> it is a pity to hear that↵another thing might be that it is trying to do everything -- it does not have a specific thing (or more) that it is trying to solve.. it just offers "good dev experience"↵my experience is that when someone or something is doing everything, then it is actually not use for anything
16:54:08FromDiscord<PunchCake> Plus most devs think like this
16:54:39FromDiscord<PunchCake> "Nim isnt popular so i wont use it" so the lack of it not being popular would make a lot of devs not use
16:54:51FromDiscord<PunchCake> Therefore its a loop of forever being unpopular
16:55:25FromDiscord<PunchCake> In reply to @QuiteQuietQ "it is a pity": Nim is for high performance software
16:55:29FromDiscord<PunchCake> Thats its niche
16:55:51FromDiscord<PunchCake> The biggest feature of nim is that its compiled
16:56:29FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> isn't Zig and Odin too? yet, I have an impression that Odin might grow bigger than Nim in the future
16:57:13FromDiscord<PunchCake> Yes but nim is easy
16:57:21FromDiscord<PunchCake> Zig is very hard to use
16:57:46FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> In reply to @PunchCake ""Nim isnt popular so": because eventually people think about getting a job with what they are using.. or want to use↵NIm, at the moment, is a nice hobby/toy language
16:58:00FromDiscord<PunchCake> Yeah
16:58:12FromDiscord<PunchCake> And also the ecosystem is a bit clapped for nim
16:58:20FromDiscord<PunchCake> Half of the nim libraries i see are abandoned
16:58:44FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> yeah :/.
16:58:51FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> (edit) ":/." => ":/"
16:59:50FromDiscord<PunchCake> And there is the idea of if i can use nim i can use rust
16:59:53FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> i wonder how it is with Rust for example↵I heard there is one library for one thing, so people are not creating new libraries and abandoning them
17:01:26FromDiscord<PunchCake> Pretty much yeah
17:01:46FromDiscord<PunchCake> Like wgpu for example is one of the best libraries in any modern langauge
17:14:02FromDiscord<auxym> In reply to @PunchCake ""Nim isnt popular so": pretty much that I think. Nim has a small community and no large corporate sponsor. Rust is hard, but it has Mozilla behind it, so people see it as a less risky bet (that thet language and ecosystem will keep growing and being maintained and such).
17:14:47FromDiscord<treeform> Rust has Microsoft behind it more at this point then Mozilla.
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17:39:04FromDiscord<jtv> It has nothing to do with corporate backing. I’ve had a dozen friends and coworkers try since I started with it. The tooling ecosystem sucks, the error messages are abysmal, the documentation is too reference focused.
17:39:32FromDiscord<jtv> And nobody cares enough to do anything about it.
17:40:45FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @jtv "It has nothing to": it is though because it lacks resources
17:40:47FromDiscord<jtv> For instance I had 3 vi users grousing just this morning about how none of them can get a good setup because nimsugget crashes so much. And nimble isn’t much better
17:41:26FromDiscord<jtv> No, the leadership doesn’t prioritize a good entry experience into the language.
17:42:42FromDiscord<jtv> There’s a hate page on our internal Notion called “Nim’s abysmal error messages” that are all things people saw in their first week where they lost tons of time because the compiler wasn’t clear.
17:43:16FromDiscord<jmgomez> They should go a try out C++ to see nice messages
17:43:22FromDiscord<jmgomez> (edit) "a" => "and"
17:43:39FromDiscord<jtv> They are all people who can already write in C, C++, Rust, etc
17:43:43FromDiscord<jmgomez> I mean, Im totally in with the tooling lacking but I can see why it lacks
17:43:47FromDiscord<jtv> Very senior people.
17:43:51FromDiscord<emanresu3> I remember rust being heavily focus on error messages a few years ago
17:44:29FromDiscord<jtv> They’re using Nim because I tried it out and they’re working with me, but they now would never choose it for their own projects even though it sounded great in theory
17:44:33FromDiscord<jmgomez> So template/traits errors are better than Nim's for them?
17:45:09FromDiscord<jtv> Nobody in my circles would choose C++ these days either. C or Rust for most systems stuff, depending on the person.
17:46:10FromDiscord<jtv> But I’ll bet they’d be much happier to go work on a C++ project next time
17:46:43FromDiscord<Gumbercules> yeah, none of that is really surprising to hear
17:47:24FromDiscord<jtv> I was bringing it up from the moment I picked up the language, and I think it’s all generally acknowledged but just not anyone’s burning desire to improve any of that
17:47:55FromDiscord<jtv> I think blaming it on money is silly. If it were ready for prime time the money would show up.
17:48:45FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I mean it's always been a theme - the man with the plan in their head doesn't like to spend time dealing with minutiae.
17:49:27FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and there is like a single core dev at this point besides them
17:49:40FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah, it’s all project culture. I was around in the early days of Python and everyone was mostly focused on being as easy for everyone as possible
17:50:12FromDiscord<jtv> And I was around when Python core was four people all working at CNRI
17:50:51FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Nim certainly doesn't feel like a "team project" and never really has
17:50:52FromDiscord<jtv> It’s never going to take off past where it is, but it could sustain where it is I suppose
17:51:31FromDiscord<jtv> Python was all Guido for a while and was always the clear decision maker, but he did work well at attracting and working with a team
17:51:44FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Nimskull even has this feeling in comparison
17:52:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> yeah the same cannot be said for Andreas, not to fault him - everyone has different personalities and some people work better with others
17:52:27FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but I think Andreas wanted someone else to wrangle the team aspect of the project, and the person that was doing that before was pretty abysmal at it / had no interest in doing it
17:52:54FromDiscord<Gumbercules> maybe room / opportunity is still there for someone to step in and do it but I also don't see anybody lining up
17:53:00FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @jtv "I think blaming it": Pay someone around here 100k and they will do it
17:53:16FromDiscord<Gumbercules> that's not generally how successful open source software projects evolve
17:53:29FromDiscord<Gumbercules> people aren't just handing out 100k
17:53:30FromDiscord<jmgomez> I know, but there is definitely a lack of resources
17:53:30FromDiscord<jtv> Do what? Make Nimble not suck and nimsuggest work and docs and …?
17:53:52FromDiscord<Gumbercules> all that is even doable right now - there are people around who could do that work
17:53:57FromDiscord<jtv> It’d take a lot more than that of peoples time
17:54:33FromDiscord<jtv> Really the culture has to be more open and community driven. If it were, it would be easy
17:54:44FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but the Nim project doesn't foster a sense of teamwork
17:54:54FromDiscord<jtv> Even Python as a dictatorship, was very much about community
17:55:00FromDiscord<jtv> Exactly
17:55:05FromDiscord<jtv> That’s my point
17:55:16FromDiscord<jmgomez> I was just trying to make the point that is not just because "leadership" is not good
17:55:17FromDiscord<jtv> The culture is just wrong for getting adoption
17:55:38FromDiscord<jtv> Well, culture starts at the top
17:55:39krux02well, it is not just about being able to do thing, it is also about being able to accept that some parts are not good and that work needs to be done, instead of denying problems and insisting on not fixing them because the problem doesn't exist
17:55:43FromDiscord<Gumbercules> it's like - this task is over here that no one wants to do - are you willing to sign up and spend your time doing this for everyone else? well say thank you and publish a change log but beyond that we will barely interact with you and probably at some point get into some petty exchange of words as well
17:55:59FromDiscord<Gumbercules> yes well krux02 can comment more on this than any of us can 🙂
17:56:50FromDiscord<jtv> Right, yeah, I early on once said I’d sign up to do some grunt work here if I knew it was going to get accepted if good, and there were crickets, of course 🙂
17:57:38FromDiscord<jtv> I’m still going to use the language until something I’m more fond of comes along, but I cannot recommend it to anyone besides myself 😦
17:57:56krux02it is kind of sad to see the state of Nim not evolving, but on the other hand, I mentiend what needs to be done in order to get Nim to a more widespread userbase, it didn't happen and I don't feel like Nim evolved drastically in the time I wasn't around anymore.
17:58:11FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Yeah and I mean - `{.virtual.}` was just added and `{.codegendecl.}` is working on types now I think? Things that I thought were necessary two+ years ago but had to stand on trial to defend the inclusion of
17:58:16FromDiscord<jmgomez> I havent been here for a long time as you are but I can say yes communication can be improved but also I see how a lot os people submit prs and they are accepted. Not so easy on other langs
17:58:34krux02some nice things about non-gc nim happened, but a lot of stuff really needed to be happening.
17:58:42FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @Gumbercules "Yeah and I mean": virtual is still WIP
17:58:47FromDiscord<RaycatWhoDat> This conversation is eerily similar to D
17:58:49FromDiscord<Gumbercules> well, either way
17:59:12FromDiscord<jtv> I have to say the language’s good spots were inspiring enough to me that if I hadn’t have unretired before finding it, I would have been willing to work on it full time. But that was before seeing the culture up close
17:59:17FromDiscord<jmgomez> the original point, from what I saw is that there is a lack of resources
17:59:18krux02RaycatWhoDat: I can imagine, D also had a fork didn't it?
17:59:25FromDiscord<jmgomez> not denying anything else
17:59:40FromDiscord<RaycatWhoDat> In reply to @krux02 "<@73855171343417344>: I can imagine,": Of its standard library, yeah
17:59:43FromDiscord<Gumbercules> the point is people want to contribute but what is allowed and what direction the language goes in isn't up to the community - it's what Andreas wants to work on and thinks should be priority
17:59:52FromDiscord<RaycatWhoDat> Long gone days, but it did happen
18:00:31krux02there should be leadership, but instead there is just uncommunicated tinkering.
18:00:34FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Obviously we can suggest things, and his mind can be changed, but often it's a brutal struggle people aren't willing to trog through
18:00:37FromDiscord<jtv> Plus, as a compiler guy, the nim source would be about as fun to go work on as GCC… too much accumulated tech debt
18:00:41FromDiscord<RaycatWhoDat> But you replace Andreas with Walter and/or Andrei and you'd have the same convo
18:00:43FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @Gumbercules "the point is people": I dont know, that may be truth. But the point is someone receives 100k to make a decent editor, that someone will do it
18:00:48krux02and sneaking in feautures nobody asked for, because it was cool to work on it.
18:01:08FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @jmgomez "I dont know, that": sure just like someone received a bunch of money to add hot code reloading and look where that went
18:01:13FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @jtv "Plus, as a compiler": Im not a compiler guy, but it easier to follow than UE's
18:01:28krux02UE yea mean unreal engine?
18:01:34FromDiscord<jmgomez> yes
18:01:54krux02yea, unreal is older, and in general game engines are more complex than compilers.
18:02:08krux02But compilers can also become arbitrarily complex, like game engines
18:02:13FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @Gumbercules "sure just like someone": adding hot reloading definitely was a bad decision lol
18:02:18krux02so it is much more a "it depends" situation.
18:02:45FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @jmgomez "adding hot reloading definitely": and Nim is littered with them
18:03:06krux02yea, but all the money would have been lost if the code would not have been merged.
18:03:10FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and who is going to fix them is the question?
18:03:17krux02that was the reasoning behind it, to prevent code rot.
18:03:39FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah the fact that the language has played w such a wide variety of ideas and jettisoned none of them is what makes it a bear
18:03:48FromDiscord<jtv> The code itself is generally clean enough
18:04:15krux02I rememebr hot code reloading being in development. I had many concerns with the code and had a long list of "this needs to be fixed before it can be merged" but in the end I wasn't asked. Hod code reloading was merged without communicating with me and since than it caused only pain
18:05:03krux02In my own fork, reverting hot code reloading was pretty much the first thing I did.
18:05:10FromDiscord<jtv> Yet still dealing with cyclical dependencies is a huge nightmare in a way that surpasses C 🙂
18:05:19krux02I looked into the diff of hot code reloading, looked what it did introduce, and deleted all of it.
18:05:29krux02was some work, managable
18:05:40FromDiscord<jtv> And that seems like table stakes for any modern language
18:06:25krux02yea in Nim you pretty much don't do cyclinc dependencies, which is in my opinion, ok. You just have to accept that you shouldn't do cyclic dependencies and learn how to avoid thim
18:06:48FromDiscord<Gumbercules> this conversation is really making me want to work on my Nim project
18:06:56FromDiscord<Gumbercules> thanks all
18:06:59FromDiscord<Gumbercules> 😄
18:07:07FromDiscord<jtv> Eh, they tend to naturally evolve in large code bases. Even in very clean ones
18:07:08krux02but instead the Nim documentation tells you how to do cyclic dependencies in a way that is just bad, and I see that it is bad so I never did it, but a lot of people didn't see how bad it was and were lead directly into suffering
18:07:50FromDiscord<jtv> So given you can’t really externally prototype the way you would in C you end up w continual refactors and larger modules than should be needed
18:08:25krux02I would have prefered if cycling dependencies would be documented as "really, don't do it, it isn't really working, but if you really really can't manage to uncycle here are some workarounds", but my real preferd solutoion would have been like in Go: remove support entirely, because the compiler can't handle it
18:08:44FromDiscord<haxscramper> nimble and everything else are overwhelmingly techical problems↵(@jtv)
18:09:41krux02I even hate the name nimble, it is as nimple as the democratic republic of <inesrt country name here> is democratic
18:09:48FromDiscord<haxscramper> Why we forked? Yeah, sure, some personalities and whatever, but this was just a blocker for addressing the actual problem and which is that the code is quite depressing to put it mildly
18:10:12FromDiscord<haxscramper> like c'mon, is it that hard to understand that putting 9 one-variable names into a function is a bad idea?
18:10:32FromDiscord<haxscramper> Or that writing nothing but a commit tile for 12 years?
18:11:05krux02regarding the commits, yea commit history wasn't really cared about at all.
18:12:21krux02and I didn't really care about it. I've tried contributing to nimskull as well and the strictness of PRs was a bit too much hassle for me. At my current job we just do squash merge with the original PR title and description as commit message
18:12:30krux02that works quite well
18:12:33FromDiscord<jtv> Well good on you all. If it were me, I wouldn’t have forked I would have started from the ground up just because there is way too much tech debt in the complexity
18:13:22FromDiscord<haxscramper> mhm, I can't say that writing it up from scratch would've been easier
18:13:23FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah good communication is neither over communication not under communication.
18:13:38FromDiscord<haxscramper> I mean, the core idea is effectively the same, so
18:13:41krux02jtv: well I have my own compiler project now, but it is a very slow process, since I don't work on it full time and it happens that I have breaks in between because my full time work gets stressful etc.
18:14:12krux02there are other nice looking languages out there, but they lack macros like Nim has them
18:14:15FromDiscord<jtv> Well for me it would have been, but I’ve been doing compiler work of some sort pretty steadily for 30 years at this point 🙂
18:14:27krux02Nim really nailed how macros and templates fundamentally should work
18:14:37om3gakrux02: nim compiler or C?
18:14:38krux02but then, the macros library really is a mess
18:14:38*beholders_eye joined #nim
18:15:03krux02om3ga, nim is a compiler to C? so what do you mean?
18:15:14om3gawhat compiler you code?
18:15:33om3gato use with which language
18:15:38FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah I agree on that, tho I think the type system has too many weird nooks and crannies and too few good error messages. And yeah the support for making macros easy to read and write robustly is lacking
18:15:42krux02well I started from scratch, with the core ideas I learned from all my programming languages that I've used and worked on over the years.
18:15:54om3gaand will it bootstrap itself krux02 ?
18:15:58krux02A lot of Nim, but also a lot of functional programming like in scala
18:16:13krux02a lot of C++, but the important c++ aspects were already in Nim
18:16:34om3gac++ is ugliest lang ever
18:16:34krux02om3ga, maybe some day, but that really isn't the main motivation
18:16:57FromDiscord<jtv> c++ is ugly, but ugliest language ever??? Not by a mile
18:17:04krux02Maybe if I start hating the language that I write the compiler in, because my language is so much better, but not earlier
18:17:11krux02and I write the compiler in Go
18:17:14om3gajkl: I know java is worse
18:17:29krux02Go seems to be a good language to write a compiler in.
18:17:33om3gajkl: I just not think it's worth to mention java
18:17:33FromDiscord<jtv> Perl is perhaps the worst that ever got heavy use
18:17:45FromDiscord<haxscramper> Most of the complaints about C++ actually rooted into very anemic API for the stdlib
18:17:46FromDiscord<treeform> In reply to @jtv "Perl is perhaps the": cobolt?
18:17:50om3gayeah, perl is one of that league
18:18:07FromDiscord<jtv> I guess go could be fine. C is better from my view
18:18:08FromDiscord<haxscramper> I did a test project where I basically coded some important stuff, like bitsets and so on
18:18:15FromDiscord<haxscramper> Basically sane APIs
18:18:22om3gabut I used perl sucessfuly many years ago
18:18:27FromDiscord<jtv> COBOL was verbose but not ugly
18:18:44FromDiscord<haxscramper> and you can write C++ code that looks quite adequately, even if you compare to nim
18:18:47*lumo_e joined #nim
18:18:58krux02jtv: I like the idea of not writing CMake/Make/<insert_your_favorite_meta_build_system>
18:19:12krux02and still have good editor support with completion etc
18:19:18FromDiscord<treeform> you want ugly, then APL?
18:19:43FromDiscord<treeform> can't even type APL without a special symbol keyboard
18:20:06krux02τ ι
18:20:07om3gaC is the king
18:20:09FromDiscord<jtv> APL for sure but it was only modestly used in the 70s and early 80s. I never saw it in the wild
18:20:29krux02I have a keyboard will lots of symbols
18:20:30FromDiscord<jtv> No C isn’t near the top of the list in my view.
18:20:41krux02but then I actually tried to type APL on my keyboard and nothing worked
18:21:09krux02and then I realized that τ in APL is not τ from the greek alphabet, it is a different unicode point, it looks identical but it isn't
18:21:20FromDiscord<jtv> C is one of the most low level which can make it very hard, but when you look at Perl code, even if you wrote it you might not be able to read it
18:21:21FromDiscord<treeform> APL got you!
18:21:42krux02so even though I have many APL symbols, I actually don't have them, because APL symbols have their own APL specific unicode points
18:22:00krux02to make sure these symbols really are only useful for APL and nothing else
18:22:01FromDiscord<jtv> Whereas anyone half decent at C I can understand their code and they can understand mine.
18:22:16FromDiscord<jtv> Not that it’s near the top of the pile either
18:22:22FromDiscord<treeform> I think most verbose language is probably assembly
18:22:36FromDiscord<treeform> its also hard to understand and obscures meaning
18:22:51krux02yea
18:23:03krux02but assembly is something I should learn more to read
18:23:17krux02as a compiler guy not properly knowing assembly feels shameful
18:23:18FromDiscord<treeform> I wrote a toy OS in assembly, it was fun
18:23:53FromDiscord<jtv> I mean, it’s not really been meant for anything other than a high level proxy to the actual machine code for decades and decades. Nobody writes meaningful programs in asm
18:23:53FromDiscord<treeform> I really like the FASM assembler and syntax over NASM or MASM or GAS.
18:23:58om3gaI cannot understand how to interprete the memProfiler report, what is 900%? number of allocs?
18:24:15FromDiscord<jtv> I could, just it would be idiotic
18:24:34om3gawe need OS completely in nim
18:25:01FromDiscord<treeform> In reply to @jtv "I could, just it": SIMD is basically asm, we did Guzba did a ton of work with SIMD for pixie.
18:25:03krux02it's not that I didn't do it at all, I just barely did it and I never really had to use assembly that I could always get around it, and I think that is pretty bad, programmers these days should learn assembly and learn how higher level languages map to machine instructions, otherwise they might become completely detached from reality and think that running everything on javascript might be a good idea
18:25:27FromDiscord<treeform> I agree
18:25:38krux02SIMD are part of assembly
18:25:51FromDiscord<treeform> (edit) removed "we did"
18:26:05FromDiscord<treeform> but also SIMD is not part of javascript ... go figure
18:26:12FromDiscord<treeform> (edit) "not" => "now"
18:26:32FromDiscord<jtv> I have often had reasons to go down to asm; hunting low level bugs. Exploitation. Optimization before llvm got good. Etc
18:26:38krux02a lot of assembly instructions are also not part of C
18:26:49FromDiscord<jtv> Using processor features that have no library support
18:26:59krux02so C really isn't an ideal target language to compile to
18:27:03om3gakrux02: C is high level lang
18:27:13FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah I in-line bits of assembly all the time
18:27:22FromDiscord<jtv> C is not a high level language
18:27:48krux02om3ga, compared to what? to assemply yes, compared to javascript, certainly not
18:27:53om3gait is, define your view of "high level"
18:28:04Amun-RaI'd say it was
18:28:20om3gakrux02: you mentioned instructions of cpu
18:28:31FromDiscord<jtv> It’s either the highest level low language or the lowest level high level language 🙂
18:28:39Amun-Ra;>
18:29:19om3gawell, you type function names there, you allocate object in ram just like in any other high level lang
18:29:38krux02om3ga, I can't recall an instruction that I know doesn't exist, but I can recall an instruction that exists in two operators
18:29:43krux02integer division
18:29:45om3gawhile you have machine codes, mnemonic assembly - this is really low level
18:30:00krux02`a / b` or in nim syntax `a div b`
18:30:21om3gakrux02: you can do that in C without any problem
18:30:24krux02integer division is one of the slowest instructions, even slower than float division
18:30:52krux02it should be avoided if performance matters, or at least reduced, and when really necessary, fewer bits are helpful
18:31:28FromDiscord<willyboar> krux02 ping me when you have something public.
18:31:38krux02`div` asm instruction always computers the division result and the remainder.
18:32:04krux02`div` returns one register and `mod` returns the other register
18:32:19krux02essentially duplicatiing the command.
18:32:20FromDiscord<jtv> Not anymore: 1) there are plenty of slower instructions because a lot of high level stuff has been pushed into the hardware architecture
18:32:33FromDiscord<jtv> 2) compilers are VERY good at strength reduction
18:32:51FromDiscord<jtv> Eg Replacing division with cheaper alternatives wherever possible
18:33:01krux02I is sad tha optimizer can optimize it out, but it is also very likely that optimized just don't detect it.
18:33:28krux02it would be better if the language would just provide some `divmod` like in assembly that always computes both
18:35:04krux02jtv: when I build a compiler that is optimized for fast iteration cycles/very very fast compiles, then optimizations are turned of unleass they are absolutely trivial to apply
18:35:51FromDiscord<jtv> I’d be shocked if llvm weren’t capable of avoiding the instruction twice when you actually use the remainder nearby
18:36:03om3gakrux02: but what langs it will compile?
18:36:08krux02if you go through llvm you already have slow compile times
18:36:15FromDiscord<jtv> If they don’t then there’s no meaningful performance benefit in any program they’ve ever seen
18:36:16krux02llvm isn't particularly fast
18:36:33FromDiscord<jtv> To compile. But it generally produces fast code.
18:36:44om3gakrux02: do the native nim compiler
18:36:55om3gait will be awesome
18:36:57krux02you are right it does the optimizations for you, and might probably do this optimization, but llvm might be too bloated for a fast compiler
18:37:29krux02yea, no I won't do that for Nim, after all I am still banned
18:37:38krux02I can't open a PR
18:37:52FromDiscord<jtv> I do, nim’s performance is good too, but depending on the backend you’ll end up using llvm or gcc’s optimizer
18:38:05FromDiscord<jtv> And they are both good, with various strengths and weaknesses
18:38:15om3gakrux02: :) why moderators banned you?
18:38:39FromDiscord<jtv> But llvm is now generally better at optimization than gcc these days.
18:38:47krux02I like that nim allows to choose many C backends, it really helps Nim to work on so many different platforms.
18:39:04om3gayou mean C compilers?
18:39:07*lumo_e quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
18:39:24FromDiscord<jtv> Works on more platforms where it will barely get used though :(. I’d rather see it be widely used than widely available.
18:40:08krux02om3ga, not moderators, Araq himself banned be, because I criticized his decision making
18:40:50*rockcavera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
18:40:54FromDiscord<jtv> That’s disappointing to hear.
18:41:22*messngaumin joined #nim
18:41:37om3gakrux02: that happens sometimes, I was banned many times for saying my own opinion
18:41:40krux02for almost a year I was full time developer on the Nim compiler
18:42:57krux02https://nim-lang.org/blog/2018/10/25/hired-krux02.html
18:44:42messngauminSex in a Minecraft world? It is more than possible! Read the spellbinding tale of Justin Bieber, Mariah Carey, and an English teacher from Regina who meet up, have a threesome, and even make hot pockets! The Minecraft pigs oink with pleasure as they watch the orgy from their pigsty! Read all about it today! https://justpaste.it/MariahCareyMinecraftALHotPocket
18:45:50krux02yay spam
18:46:18om3gaban him please
18:46:26krux02lol
18:46:43om3gaspam everywhere, I cannot tolerate that
18:46:56messngauminBan me? Aren't you going to check out this minecraft fantasy?
18:47:03om3gano
18:47:04FromDiscord<jtv> Krux, sorry you had to deal w/ that. Hope you've found a good professional community since!
18:47:04messngauminDon't worry. Nobody gets raped by creepers
18:47:04krux02I prefer to reference spammers as `it` because I assume it is a bot, not a human.
18:47:23om3gamessngaumin: unsend your message
18:47:26krux02creepers just blow up your house
18:47:40krux02or in creeper world, they drown you
18:48:02FromDiscord<willyboar> <@&371760044473319454>
18:48:16messngauminimpossible
18:48:31om3gayoutube got mad
18:48:34krux02this is IRC, there is no unsending messages
18:48:46om3gathree or four commercials one after another
18:48:59om3gaand they spam me with scizophrenia pills
18:49:03om3gaI can sue them
18:49:04krux02don't you use add blocker?
18:49:21krux02I recommend μBlock Origin
18:49:21om3ganot on iphone
18:49:32FromDiscord<Phil> Allow me to unsend it for you
18:49:34krux02pi-hole?
18:49:55messngauminOm3ga Mrs. Skilton stuffs her corn and peanut laden shit up Mariah Carey's twat
18:50:00messngauminand Justin Bieber eats it out
18:50:06messngauminas the piggies watch with glee
18:50:08om3gamessngaumin: :(
18:50:18om3gawhy I should know that
18:50:30krux02don't reply
18:50:30messngauminmore reason to read this fan fiction
18:50:33messngauminbased on Minecraft
18:50:40krux02messngaumin, fuck off
18:51:04messngauminChatGPT creates some good stuff
18:51:47FromDiscord<Phil> There we go, good as new
18:52:03krux02did you delete the messages on discord?
18:52:03FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I want my money back
18:52:05*messngaumin quit (K-Lined)
18:52:15FromDiscord<Phil> I am, I'm getting around to doing so on matrix
18:52:34krux02because I can still see them all here on irc, IRC has no history changing operations
18:52:46om3gayeah
18:52:50krux02the spammer is here on IRC
18:52:52FromDiscord<Phil> I can't really do anything about IRC
18:53:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> IRC is a platform
18:54:04krux02jtv: yes I have found a professional community, I am working with a lot of people from my university now. I don't really work on my dream project anymore, but at least I work with cool people
18:54:07om3gaI prefer irc
18:54:15FromDiscord<Phil> I'm aware, but I apparently can ban them from matrix so I can contain the problem....to IRC...maybe?
18:54:36om3gadiscord is not how I imagine good conference channel app
18:55:13FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> sent a long message, see http://ix.io/4vgm
18:55:20krux02I also prefer IRC, it is so uncomplicated, and I feel like I actually have a conversation, not multimedia and meme spam
18:55:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Guess who had a meme spam
18:55:51krux02yea and long messages like that one are usuilly completely hidden
18:57:42FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @QuiteQuietQ "omg, everytime I want": you can't imagine how much people left nim community.
18:57:57om3gakrux02: exactly, my eyes bleed from that multiple colors and images
18:58:16krux02less is more
18:58:25FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> In reply to @willyboar "you can't imagine how": another nail into a coffin
18:58:37FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @QuiteQuietQ "omg, everytime I want": that "main dev" wasn't really contributing anything that that point
18:58:57FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and the reasoning behind the departure was probably long in the making
19:00:21FromDiscord<Gumbercules> just for clarification
19:01:12FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> why is it when i just `nimble install nico`, things work fine, but when i do `nimble --nimbleDir:nimble install nico`, it warns me of the code using `except:` instead of `except CatchableError:` and then never continues ?
19:01:27FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> i updated from 1.6.10 to 1.6.12 if that changes something
19:01:31FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> (edit) "i updated from 1.6.10 to 1.6.12 ... if" added "before"
19:02:04FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> (edit) "why is it when i just `nimble install nico`, things work fine, but when i do `nimble --nimbleDir:nimble install nico`, it warns me of the code using `except:` instead of `except CatchableError:` and then never continues ... ?" added "compiling"
19:03:55krux02Zeno: because nimble is a mess and nothing ever gets done about it
19:04:17FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> damn
19:04:25FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> i see, alright
19:04:52krux02In my project i fixed all nimble relade issues by not using nimble anymore, I use git submodules instead (I really don't like submodules), and everything works like a charm
19:05:16FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> yeah i might aswell do that, thanks
19:05:40krux02I usa a submodule for every dependency (including the transitive ones, lucky me there were none) and then compile without nimble path
19:05:56krux02you're welcome
19:06:46FromDiscord<exelotl> I also do this and it works well
19:07:31FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> In reply to @exelotl "I also do this": i see, alright, thanks aswell
19:08:17FromDiscord<jtv> @QuiteQuietQ In terms of the "they" thing, there was apparently a mail over a year ago that was the reason for dom leaving the community, because he expressed a deeper sentiment, that not only did he feel (wrongly) that it's incorrect english, but the whole notion is against his religious beliefs. It's definitely something that continues to give me pause.
19:09:08krux02Imagine having invented nimble, and then somebody comes along and says your entire project is worthless piece of shit and can be replaced by git submodules and then even all the issues with nimble are fixed, imagine how that would make you feel.
19:09:37om3gaif something not works, better to suggest how to fix it
19:10:13krux02yea nimble is doms work
19:10:30krux02so dom is the "main dev" that was talked about?
19:10:39om3gaor not to criticise that much, to sound like disrespect talk
19:11:03FromDiscord<QuiteQuietQ> In reply to @krux02 "so dom is the": yes, if i remember the name from twitter correctly
19:11:20krux02yea, I still have his book about Nim.
19:13:54FromDiscord<planetis> Aha a doomer
19:14:07krux02if you care about my 2 cents here. I personally don't think that loosing dom is a big loss. Pretty impressive that he managed to publish a book about nim, I will give him that. But his contributions in code were not that great. I really don't like the style he teaches in the book.
19:15:12FromDiscord<jtv> I don't know Dom and the code he left behind seems to be pretty dodgy, but he was clearly the #2 person and he left for reasons that would give me pause.
19:15:18krux02what I really hated was, while I was still active I remember that we had several times really talented people contribute stuff, and these people were the people Araq attacked instantly. I had the feeling he really hated them, or talent in general.
19:15:46krux02He wasn't looking for talent, he was looking for obedient people who don't question his decisions.
19:15:58krux02And that is what kills a project in the long run.
19:16:07FromDiscord<jtv> Some people feel threatened by people they deep down fear might be smarter than them, and defend themselves. Others want to surround themselves with people better than them.
19:16:08FromDiscord<planetis> Tbf Araq did try to give you a second chance and you cursed at him
19:16:15FromDiscord<jtv> Guess which kind Guido was? 🙂
19:16:15krux02Alienating talent and attacting yes-sayers
19:16:41krux02planetis: I don't remember a true second chance
19:16:51krux02wait
19:16:54krux02wrong wording
19:16:54FromDiscord<planetis> That low key means I am not talented because I didn't have problems from him
19:17:19FromDiscord<planetis> Which I accept btw
19:17:26FromDiscord<Nerve> In reply to @krux02 "what I really hated": Nim is a BDIC project, when the BDIC tells you you're off-track, you either get back on track or leave
19:17:38FromDiscord<Nerve> I don't think anyone was sold a false bill of goods here
19:18:08krux02I did criticise Araq, my framing wasn't nice, I will admid that, but the criticism was honest and in the interest to bring the project forward. So I don't think it should be taken back.
19:19:17FromDiscord<jtv> The "B" stands for benevolent. Generally some patience and understanding for the bad behavior of others is implied there.
19:19:29krux02planetis: I am sorry I wasn't talking or thinking about you when I wrote that, I was thinking about several times really good and constructive feedback got into Nim and immediately got alienated
19:19:37FromDiscord<Nerve> Keyword "bad"
19:19:45FromDiscord<planetis> Nah it was a joke
19:19:51FromDiscord<jtv> I see too much apathy about the people using Nim to call it benevolence 🙂
19:20:27krux02jtv: totally agree here
19:20:45FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Most people talking about krux's departure weren't here when it took place, and those of us who were know how it went down, so...
19:21:15FromDiscord<jtv> I'm not basing my view of the people involved based on what Krux has said whatsoever.
19:21:30krux02yea I attacked Araq many times for his decision making, and looking back, I should not have made it the way I did.
19:21:30FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I wasn't referring to you, sorry for the confusion 🙂
19:21:40FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I think you both fucked up
19:21:42FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but that's l ife
19:21:45FromDiscord<Gumbercules> (edit) "l ife" => "life"
19:21:45FromDiscord<Nerve> In reply to @Gumbercules "Most people talking about": Well then describe it or all of this discussion is useless, if it comes down to "You can't really know just trust us" then I have no reason to listen
19:21:55FromDiscord<Gumbercules> hopefully you both learned something
19:22:38FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @Nerve "Well then describe it": first of all, I wasn't conversing I'm just pointing out you're making assumptions about who was sold what and you weren't there
19:22:42krux02well I can give my perspective, but it is now multiple years ago, and biased
19:22:45FromDiscord<Nerve> I realize there's people on both sides here but I'm working with very little
19:22:52krux02I certainly didn't tell the full story
19:23:01FromDiscord<Gumbercules> secondly, I'm not an on-demand Nim historian and there are IRC logs you can comb through if you really want to figure it out
19:23:14FromDiscord<jtv> I mean, nobody is perfect, and people are capable of maturing rapidly too
19:23:18FromDiscord<Gumbercules> if you don't want to do that work then you will have to just trust us, or not throw your two cents in
19:23:24om3gavery strange, I get only 3 entries in memProfiler report, while the project relatively is huge
19:23:39FromDiscord<Nerve> I think those 2 cents apply regardless, it's a valid comment
19:24:07om3gadoes the memProfiler reports only problematic parts?
19:24:15FromDiscord<Gumbercules> it's not because you don't know what the working agreement between krux and araq was and how their interactions played out, but whatever
19:24:35FromDiscord<jtv> For me the issue is that Nim isn't likely to take off, I find it due to the community's culture in general. I have my views on the whys from my immersion, but fundamentally it's not too relevant. I do, however, seriously doubt the necessary change will occur
19:24:39FromDiscord<planetis> I think I get mad at people when I have no face to face contact, so I am going to blame all this on how hard it's to cooperate remotely and under pressure.
19:24:57FromDiscord<Gumbercules> plenty of software projects work over mailing lists
19:25:07krux02I got banned after my working agreement already ended, the reasoning was fishy
19:25:27FromDiscord<Gumbercules> yes and there was quite a lot of drama between you two before it ended
19:25:36FromDiscord<Gumbercules> as well as after
19:25:45FromDiscord<Nerve> In reply to @jtv "For me the issue": This says...nothing? What are the changes you'd personally hope to see
19:25:52FromDiscord<jtv> Scroll up.
19:25:55krux02still I contributed full time for several months after my employment, but I worked on stuff I saw as most critical, not stuff Araq wanted me to do
19:26:13krux02that bothered him a lot, but he also didn't pay me anymore
19:26:15FromDiscord<Gumbercules> yeah...
19:26:53krux02(the story misses many many details and a lot of setup)
19:26:54FromDiscord<Nerve> In reply to @jtv "Scroll up.": You want it rebased to llvm IR?
19:27:06om3gacan nim turn into nonfree toolset ?
19:27:34om3gasince there is warning , Araq owns all the rights
19:27:49FromDiscord<jtv> No, you didn't scroll up enough. In a nutshell, the tooling not sucking, the error messages not sucking, and a general focus on an easy onramp and a welcoming environment for newbies. I'm forcing several people to use Nim who are very senior people who are all expert at C and plenty of other languages, and they have all been left with a bad taste in their mouth over those issues.
19:29:21FromDiscord<Nerve> Every language community constantly hems and haws and gnashes teeth about new user onramping, I don't think anyone has good answers to that or answers that will be satisfactory to everyone
19:29:23FromDiscord<that_dude> What does tooling actually mean? I've seen it get thrown around all the time, but I don't actually know what it refers to
19:29:36krux02but one day I had a conversation with araq about `when compiles(xxx ...)` and that it doesn't properly work in the compiler and really shouldn't be done. So I went ahead and made a PR that replaced all instances of `when compiles(xxx)` in the compiler with something else that doesn't need it, and it worked. It was 1 day+ of work I made a PR it was big. And Araq's response was, "I never asked for this, nobody told you to
19:29:36krux02do this", and then I said, yes you did tell me to do it and here is the IRC chat log where you said that when compiles should be replaced, he hated that didn't merge the pr just closed it because he didn't want to review it.
19:30:11FromDiscord<jtv> @Nerve I totally disagree. Python nailed it, Go nailed it. Rust didn't, but still is 5000x better than Nim.
19:30:33FromDiscord<ericdraven> fwiw, I found nim rather easy to start with compared to many other languages I've tried.
19:30:40FromDiscord<Nerve> What does Python do that Nim should? Also all of these languages have very, very large budgets
19:30:52FromDiscord<jtv> Python didn't when it nailed it.
19:31:11FromDiscord<ericdraven> (I just randomly started hacking on nimdow, and learned on the way).
19:31:23om3gaI not agree, python not does the same as nim, and rust is slow
19:31:30FromDiscord<jtv> I'm not going to keep repeating myself, someday I'll blog a bit about why I use nim but will never recommend it.
19:31:36krux02I had easy going when I started with Nim, but I also had a background of 10+ languages
19:31:55FromDiscord<planetis> I am pissed that StarCoder LLM doesn't have nim support.
19:31:58FromDiscord<jtv> Huh? om3ga, the discussion is about the onboarding experience not the language itself
19:32:01FromDiscord<planetis> Hopefully the next one
19:32:10FromDiscord<Phil> Similarly I got started with nim after being pretty solid in 3 others, then again Compilers and Compiletime where things I hadn't been aware of yet so that may not mean much
19:32:21om3gaanybody with experience in three or more langs will easily start with nim
19:32:51FromDiscord<ericdraven> I think the most annoying thing I found was choosenim not working well on arm macs. But I guess I fixed that by using nix instead
19:33:06krux02Phil: do you mean you worked with interpreted languages most of the time?
19:33:06om3gait's not about the languages, but with huge experience of coding and knowledge of algorithms
19:33:29FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @krux02 "<@180601887916163073>: do you mean": No, it's just that the one language that wasn't interpreted was java
19:33:30FromDiscord<Nerve> In reply to @jtv "I'm not going to": Okay then, I'll wait for that blog but I'm still not sure what Python does better, the docs are much worse designed than Nim's even though they do have more info. And I'll add that I'm another polyglot who had an easy time onramping by myself, gcc and particular linking requirements have been my only painpoint, Nim itself works fine.
19:33:31FromDiscord<planetis> I had trouble adapting to Java because OOP is so foreign here
19:33:34FromDiscord<Nerve> (edit) "painpoint," => "pain point,"
19:33:50FromDiscord<jtv> I just told you that I have forced a bunch of senior people to use it, they all know C, Rust, Python, Go and plenty of others. And they don't want to be using it now that they've used it some.
19:33:56FromDiscord<ericdraven> onboarding with c++ and cmake is just so much worse 🙂
19:33:59FromDiscord<Nerve> We're not them
19:34:18krux02Phil: actually, java and python both compile and run on a bytecode interpreter, no real structual difference here
19:34:20FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Nimble does not work well, Nimsuggest does not work well, Choosenim does not workw ell
19:34:34FromDiscord<Gumbercules> these are not really debatable - they are objective facts
19:34:49FromDiscord<jtv> Python when it took off had great reference docs, great tutorials, a bunch of howtos, and a lot of friendly people happy to help on mailing lists. It has much more robust tooling.
19:34:54om3gayes, and that's why python and java are not better
19:34:59FromDiscord<Gumbercules> when people talk about shitty tooling, this is what they are referring to
19:35:04FromDiscord<ericdraven> pip also does not work well.
19:35:07FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Java has great tooling
19:35:22FromDiscord<Gumbercules> the JVM has some of the best - so I'm not sure what you're talking about there mo3ga
19:35:26FromDiscord<Gumbercules> (edit) "mo3ga" => "om3ga"
19:35:31FromDiscord<ericdraven> maven? 😄
19:35:36krux02the thing is, you can easily fix a lot of issues by stopping the support of `nimble` and just promote to use git submodules instead and say that it is the recommended way to do things.
19:35:38FromDiscord<ericdraven> yay recursive xml
19:35:47FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I'm not saying it's well designed I'm saying it works
19:35:55krux02choosenim is also one of these pointless projects in my opinion
19:35:58FromDiscord<jtv> Yes, doesn't matter which major language's tooling you hate, 3 of my people are 20+ year VI users who can't get nimsuggest to work with it w/o crashing continually.
19:36:00FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and they also have gradle so a declarative scriptable dependency manager
19:36:03FromDiscord<jtv> And this was a problem a year ago.
19:36:09FromDiscord<emanresu3> pip is probably the work package manager i've ever used↵(@ericdraven)
19:36:14FromDiscord<jtv> The community doesn't care enough to do anything about it.
19:36:15krux02I already have a package manager, I don't really want yet another manager just for my nim version
19:36:19FromDiscord<Gumbercules> python has alternatives to pip as well
19:36:27FromDiscord<Gumbercules> nimble isn't just a package manager - it's also a build system
19:36:30FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and neither side of it works well
19:36:42FromDiscord<Gumbercules> it didn't even have fucking lockfiles until 2022?
19:36:55FromDiscord<Gumbercules> couldn't make a reproducible build before then
19:36:57krux02and if I really want Nim in a very specfic version I just compiler from git, I never got the point of choosenim, it doesn't solve any problem, but it introduces problems becaues it doesn't really work well
19:37:02FromDiscord<Nerve> The more Nim can depend on already existing tools rather than reinventing the wheel, the better; if it's already just cloning git repos, the case for it already isn't strong
19:37:09FromDiscord<jtv> If you stray off nimbles happy path, it's disastrous. And it has a tiny little happy path.
19:37:10FromDiscord<ericdraven> jtv: I recently got a pr merged for nvim-lspconfig to support langserver. It seems to work more stably in nvim nimlsp for me. But I agree nimsuggest seems to have some serious issues.
19:37:10FromDiscord<Gumbercules> this is like the bare minimum of a package manager - deterministic builds
19:37:31FromDiscord<Gumbercules> (edit) "this is like the bare minimum of a package manager - ... deterministic" added "enabling"
19:37:37FromDiscord<emanresu3> I use neovim with the 'alaviss/nim.nvim' plugin and is well enough↵(@jtv)
19:37:45FromDiscord<Gumbercules> the good news is that these things are solvable
19:38:05krux02gumbercules: you can build with just `nim` no nimble just fine
19:38:10FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Nim's compiler complexity / barrier to entry to work on is a much tougher cat to skin and is ultimately why Nim was hard forked (plus reasons)
19:38:15krux02nimble really isn't needed to build a project
19:38:15FromDiscord<ericdraven> seems like we're pretty close to a working treesitter implementation as well.
19:38:18FromDiscord<Gumbercules> krux02: I know this of course
19:38:31FromDiscord<Gumbercules> https://github.com/Tail-Wag-Games/frag/blob/master/config.nims
19:38:47FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but I'm just trying to prevent the pile on of @jtv with a bunch of nonsense handwaving
19:38:50FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and finger pointing
19:39:16FromDiscord<Gumbercules> because the issues are real and do exist and pointing out that other languages have the same issues isn't the solution
19:39:35FromDiscord<Gumbercules> those other languages are already popular and have wide adoption - Nim has neither of those going for it and to break through it NEEDS a good tooling and onboarding story
19:39:50FromDiscord<Gumbercules> (edit) "onboarding" => "ramping up"
19:40:09FromDiscord<AmjadHD> When to use `new` instead of a constructor ?
19:40:20krux02for a long time all I could think about was how to make Nim successful
19:40:23FromDiscord<jtv> The tendency to defend the flaws instead of acknowledging them and providing an environment that encourages working together to fix them is part of the community's broad challenge 🙂
19:40:32FromDiscord<Gumbercules> it also needs a community that feels like they can influence the direction of the project and to feel some sense of ownership / pride in contributing rather than it just being a chore driven by some task master that might choose to be a dick to them on a random day
19:40:47FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> krux02: i am stupid, so can you lead me in how can i go around using submodules ? if you are free of course, you can keep talking if you want, i can wait
19:40:48FromDiscord<Nerve> In reply to @AmjadHD "When to use `new`": When you want a managed heap reference instead of a stack-managed scoped reference
19:40:55krux02jtv: No that is a challenge of leadership.
19:40:57FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @AmjadHD "When to use `new`": Nim doesn't have constructors but I assume you mean vs `MyObj()`
19:41:18FromDiscord<Nerve> (edit) "stack-managed" => "stack-lifetime"
19:41:36FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @krux02 "jtv: No that is": leadership should set the example here
19:41:50krux02I good leader doesn't fix all the problems on its own, he/she/them/they/it/whatever builds the environment where things get addressed and fixed by the people
19:41:59FromDiscord<Gumbercules> right but it's the whole lead by example thing
19:42:07FromDiscord<Gumbercules> if Araq wants to solve all these tooling challenges
19:42:12FromDiscord<Gumbercules> he should be diving into nimsuggest code first
19:42:22FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and not be working on incremental compilation for N years
19:42:24krux02Zeno I can link you my example
19:42:46FromDiscord<Nerve> In reply to @Gumbercules "it also needs a": I'm not convinced of this and have seen this argument happen numerous times in other BDIC arguments. The BDIC wants one thing, talented people who (rightly or wrongly) think they know better want more "community direction", and ultimately those people have to leave because it's just not a community project, it's a BDIC project.
19:42:50FromDiscord<that_dude> In reply to @jtv "The tendency to defend": I feel like it can be kinda hard to tell flaws apart because people still complain about case, overloading, ufcs(I think) which some consider great features
19:42:51FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> In reply to @krux02 "Zeno I can link": that would be awesome, may you send it ?
19:42:52FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I'm sure though we'll end up with some half-finished IC implementation and more compiler complexity
19:42:57FromDiscord<Nerve> (edit) "arguments." => "projects."
19:43:02FromDiscord<that_dude> (edit) "case," => "case insensitivity,"
19:43:03krux02I have submodules here: https://github.com/krux02/opengl-sandbox/tree/master/submodules
19:43:12NimEventerNew thread by inv2004: Can someone help to understand how closure iterator works?, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10172
19:43:26FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @Nerve "I'm not convinced of": no
19:43:26FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> alright, thanks, i'll look into it
19:43:55krux02and then you need a config file for the nim compiler
19:43:56krux02https://github.com/krux02/opengl-sandbox/blob/master/nim.cfg
19:44:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Araq has been swayed in numerous directions by the input of others and the general gripes of the community - it has very little to do with Araq wanting a different direction and people not being able to convince Araq
19:44:25krux02just say you don't want to use the nimble path and add all submodules to the path and then you just compile with `nim c main.nim`
19:44:44FromDiscord<Gumbercules> it has much more to do with the fact that Andreas can be extremely difficult to work with and likes to argue and will often engage in petty bickering, etc...
19:45:09FromDiscord<⚶ Zeno> In reply to @krux02 "just say you don't": oh i see, thanks for the help, appreciate it
19:45:26FromDiscord<Gumbercules> add on top that he likes to build new things and experiment with new ideas and gets bored with the minutiae that comes with running a successful public software project with lots of users
19:45:55krux02yes that is the biggest problem
19:45:59FromDiscord<Gumbercules> he doesn't want to take the time to deal with maintaining and managing a community and the last person that he gave that responsibility to sucked at it and didn't care either
19:45:59FromDiscord<jtv> In reply to @that_dude "I feel like it": Well, most of the complaints are handled too dismissively. Have a FAQ about them that's respectful. But also, listen to what's at the core of them. For instance, I quite like ufcs, but there are common places where it breaks unintuitively to the average user, and the error messages usually don't even make it clear what the problem is.
19:46:05FromDiscord<AmjadHD> In reply to @Gumbercules "Nim doesn't have constructors": Yes.
19:46:30FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @AmjadHD "Yes.": `new MyOjb` is going to allocate on the heap and return a traced reference
19:46:33krux02there was a time where I really wanted to take over the leadership
19:46:36FromDiscord<Gumbercules> so that it will be eventually freed by Nim's GC
19:46:41krux02but yea, It didn't happen (and won't)
19:46:46FromDiscord<jtv> For instance, the fact that [] is used for static type actuals, but is ambiguous wrt. array indexing, but array indexing wins.
19:46:53FromDiscord<Gumbercules> `MyObj()` will do the same thing if `MyObj` is a ref object
19:47:07FromDiscord<Gumbercules> if it's just an object then `MyObj` will be allocated on the stack
19:47:29FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @krux02 "but yea, It didn't": Nim simply needs a community manager / ambassador
19:47:31FromDiscord<jtv> There are a few other ambiguities not resolved in ufcs's favor which leads to hours wasted if the error messages aren't helpful
19:47:57FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but I'm not sure who is willing to sign up for that sort of job when there is zero pay and you have to deal with Andreas and this community
19:48:04FromDiscord<AmjadHD> In reply to @Gumbercules "`new MyOjb` is going": I meant `new MyRef` vs `MyRef`.
19:48:04krux02yea Araq really isn't a good presenter at events, I don't feel the enthusiasm
19:48:13FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @AmjadHD "I meant `new MyRef`": there is no difference then
19:48:18*lumo_e joined #nim
19:48:30FromDiscord<AmjadHD> (edit) "`MyRef`." => "`MyRef(...)`."
19:48:53FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Gumbercules "Nim simply needs a": I think Miran is the community manager
19:48:55FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @Gumbercules "Nim simply needs a": "simply" 🙂
19:48:56FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @krux02 "yea Araq really isn't": I mean not everyone is a people person or is super charasmatic
19:49:09FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @ericdraven ""simply" 🙂": well the solution is simple in that this is all that is required
19:49:15FromDiscord<Gumbercules> obtaining one is another story completely 😄
19:49:23FromDiscord<jtv> I'm an introvert myself, a lot of people in the community are. That doesn't prevent them from being collaborative.
19:49:27FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @willyboar "I think Miran is": yeah well if they still are they are the absolute worst
19:49:43FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @jtv "I'm an introvert myself,": no, but some people aren't as grown up in this area as others
19:49:53FromDiscord<jtv> Right, agreed 🙂
19:49:56FromDiscord<Gumbercules> every job I've had there are people, usually very bright, who are exceedingly difficult to work with
19:50:17FromDiscord<Gumbercules> they're not bad people or less good at what they do because of this, it's just they never honed those soft skills I guess
19:50:40FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and I mean, it can definitely impact their ability to work in a given role - generally these aren't the people you task with leading others
19:50:52FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Gumbercules "yeah well if they": there isn't better candidates than pmunch and beef
19:51:19FromDiscord<Gumbercules> ehhh I would want someone a bit more professional than beef and less professional than pmunch
19:51:27FromDiscord<jtv> Yes, some of them are capable of taking the feedback, but never get the chance because the people they're around people are too put off to try. Others will always just be too defensive.
19:51:32FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but in terms of passion I agree
19:51:40FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Gumbercules "ehhh I would want": then both of them
19:51:41krux02when I worked full time, I remember that miran got hired. I like him so I don't want to sound too critical. But he didn't have strong opinions/personality profile. Imho Leadership needs these strong opinions to focus the project.
19:51:54FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @willyboar "then both of them": could be a solution - but then you'd need Andreas's sign off
19:52:07FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @krux02 "when I worked full": miran is just like a yes man I feel like
19:52:22FromDiscord<Gumbercules> give him a task to do, they nod and smile and go get it done
19:52:34FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and if you ask their opinion on something they just nod and smile
19:52:40krux02totally agree here
19:53:19FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @krux02 "when I worked full": We have talk about that a lot with gumber. The best community i ve seen in a programming language is Gleam one.
19:53:41FromDiscord<jtv> Again, I think I'll drop into this channel in 5 years and it'll only be a matter of time before there's a similar discussion. The signals I read say, Nim is where it is. If you're happy enough with it as-is, then all good, but it's not going to suddenly explode... or disappear.
19:53:42FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I haven't been in Gleam's discord in a while but the author is very approachable
19:53:55FromDiscord<Gumbercules> yeah Nim has legs but are they going anywhere is the question
19:54:12krux02I don't remember deep and thoughtful discussions wtih miran. But to say something good about Araq, I actually have very long discussions with Araq, especially at the beginning when I was the first full time employee and the direction of everything wasn't clear yet.
19:54:14FromDiscord<Gumbercules> it's been that way for a while though - since probably 2018/2019
19:54:25FromDiscord<jtv> 100% no, imo. Nim will long be standing near the spot it's standing today.
19:54:58krux02jtv: so it won't move?
19:54:58FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case - the only reason that would change is a major shake up at the top
19:55:01FromDiscord<ericdraven> jtv: You almost seem to want this.
19:55:13FromDiscord<Gumbercules> @ericdraven it's not hard to extrapolate given Nim's history
19:55:13FromDiscord<jtv> Not at all.
19:55:37FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I mean I've been using Nim since 2015 and Krux before me
19:56:13krux02is it really that long ago when I started with Nim?
19:56:23FromDiscord<Gumbercules> you've had Rust, Zig, and Odin emerge during that time
19:56:37FromDiscord<ericdraven> And now Mojo 😉
19:56:37krux02Rust I tried before starting with Nim
19:56:39FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and lots of othrs
19:56:41FromDiscord<Gumbercules> fuck Mojo
19:56:44FromDiscord<jtv> I do think I'm no longer willing to invest in helping the community because I've learned it's not geared to capitalize on it. But I'd love for it to get its act together.
19:56:47FromDiscord<Gumbercules> gd
19:57:08krux02Mojo has the full python compatibility thing going, and that is a big big plus
19:57:36FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @jtv "I do think I'm": yeah but it also has the whole buzzwordy corporate marketing aspect to it which is enough to turn me off
19:57:39krux02scala would never be as successful as it is without it being wrapper free java compatible
19:57:46FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @jtv "I do think I'm": Once the community gets its shit together will you be willing again
19:57:55krux02C++ would not be where it is if it wasn't wrapper free C compatible
19:58:01FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @jtv "I do think I'm": I think there are still areas worth contributing to - but they aren't anything under the Nim org
19:58:26FromDiscord<jtv> Yes, definitely. I said an hour or so ago, I'm still happily using Nim myself. The people working w/ me on it are less happy about it 🙂
19:58:37FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I think what @sOkam! is doing with the webgpu stuff is worth building on
19:59:00krux02imagine Nim being a 100% superset of python that can use the full python ecosystem
19:59:09FromDiscord<Gumbercules> @ringabout should be everyone's hero at this point for the effort they've been putting in
19:59:24FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but we need more than one hero at this juncture
19:59:31krux02I wouldn't like it, because I don't like python, but it would be a big benefit to get a lot of python devs actuall use it in their codebase
19:59:41FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @krux02 "imagine Nim being a": yeah I was about to say - fuck Python tbh
19:59:47*demetera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
19:59:57FromDiscord<jtv> Well, 100% superset of Python doesn't sound like the right thing to me. Python's got too much in terms of dynamic semantics to ever be a good systems language
19:59:57FromDiscord<Nerve> In reply to @krux02 "imagine Nim being a": That sounds hellish to maintain, probably moreso than compiling to C
20:00:10*demetera joined #nim
20:00:12FromDiscord<Gumbercules> honestly I'm a little relieved we don't have all of the Python developers out there using Nim
20:00:37FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I can't imagine what trying to answer questions in the Python IRC is like
20:00:38krux02I don't like python, but something needs to be done to suck python developers away from pything through a path of least resistence, otherwise python will continue to exist for eternity
20:00:50FromDiscord<jtv> Really? I think it should have been a goal to make systems programming easy enough that anyone could do it 🙂
20:01:07FromDiscord<Gumbercules> didn't Java already do this?
20:01:13FromDiscord<jtv> The focus on the user is what's lacking
20:01:14krux02whatever system's programming is
20:01:26FromDiscord<jtv> No, Java isn't a systems programming language, nor is Go for that matter.
20:01:34FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Why not?
20:01:39FromDiscord<jtv> Rust is, C is.
20:01:47krux02jtv: because it needs a runtime to exist
20:01:50FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Okay but how is Python one and not Java?
20:01:56FromDiscord<ericdraven> python is not one
20:01:57FromDiscord<jtv> It isnt one
20:02:00FromDiscord<ericdraven> it's a dynamic language
20:02:08FromDiscord<Gumbercules> dynamism has nothing to do with anything here
20:02:21FromDiscord<ericdraven> well it needs a runtime 🙂
20:02:23FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and I was confused - I thought you were saying Python was a systems programming language
20:02:25FromDiscord<Gumbercules> sure
20:02:41FromDiscord<jtv> Systems languages are suitable for low-level (close to the machine) use cases, cases where vertical scalability is important, etc
20:02:41FromDiscord<jtv> NOOOO
20:02:41FromDiscord<ericdraven> (I don't think I know any dynamic/scripting languages that doesn).
20:02:43FromDiscord<Gumbercules> okay so we're saying that's the barrier to entry is if you need a runtime you cannot be considered a systems programming language
20:02:51FromDiscord<Gumbercules> ?
20:03:26FromDiscord<Gumbercules> what about scheme / lisp?
20:03:31FromDiscord<jtv> No, C and Nim both have runtimes, and Go's is even better suited for some things like distributing a single static binary
20:03:35FromDiscord<Gumbercules> right
20:04:09FromDiscord<jtv> Systems languages are generally going to run within 1.5x of C code, be very compatible with the native ABI, etc.
20:04:28FromDiscord<jtv> In short, you could use them for writing device drivers.
20:04:30FromDiscord<Gumbercules> yes and my confusion was that I thought someone had stated Python qualified as one
20:04:33FromDiscord<Gumbercules> which is why I brought up Java
20:04:56FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but in that case - no I don't want every Python programmer using systems programming languages because programming systems is inherently difficult
20:05:16krux02you can use `C` without the C standard library and it's runtime, only the instructions that your code generated, and that makes it a system language, it can be used as the root process
20:05:19FromDiscord<Gumbercules> ultimately there are more things to think about and more concepts to understand
20:05:39FromDiscord<jtv> A good systems programming language can do far more than just system programming.
20:05:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Clearly we do dragon ball fusion and problem solved↵(@Gumbercules)
20:06:13FromDiscord<jtv> One of the coolest things about Nim (that I don't personally use) is that it also targets the Javascript backend, for instance.
20:06:33FromDiscord<ericdraven> Writing a kernel in python would be tricky I guess.
20:06:51FromDiscord<Gumbercules> well you'd inevitably be calling some C
20:06:57FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and assembly
20:07:17FromDiscord<jtv> But if you just wanted to hack together some build tooling in Nim, if you know both languages really well, it's not much harder in Nim than Python.
20:07:34FromDiscord<Recruit_main707> In reply to @ezquerra "I just tried the": have you figured it out?↵if not try with this one:↵https://github.com/elcritch/NimFlatbuffers↵Its a fork of mine but im not sure how further it was developed, i still had some issues
20:07:41FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I think the sweet spot Nim hits is language flexibility
20:07:57FromDiscord<Recruit_main707> it does say it is based on it so maybe...
20:08:07FromDiscord<Gumbercules> if you want to just write high level application code and not think about systems programming concepts you can and it does well here - it's easy enough to pick up that you should be able to replace most bash and python scripts with it quite easily
20:08:25FromDiscord<jtv> A user-centric systems language would be my ideal here. Flexibility is a mixed bag... when you've got 500 ways to do things, well, readability tends to suffer.
20:08:33FromDiscord<Gumbercules> if you want to replace C with something with a better type system - you can do that to, you can even bring your own stdlib
20:08:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean Nim is user centric
20:08:51FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I mean flexibility in design and use cases not necessarily semantics
20:08:59FromDiscord<jtv> Yes, exactly. That's the thing about Nim for me... the language itself is pretty user centric, but only if the community were.
20:08:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> like 90% of things can be implemented in user code
20:09:05FromDiscord<jtv> And the tools 🙂
20:09:16FromDiscord<Gumbercules> well the community is user centric but to a fualt
20:09:19FromDiscord<Gumbercules> (edit) "fualt" => "fault"
20:09:28FromDiscord<Gumbercules> it's that everyone is the sole user that is thought of most of the time
20:09:35FromDiscord<Gumbercules> we need a community to more community centric
20:09:40FromDiscord<Gumbercules> (edit) "a" => "the"
20:09:57FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and you see it in some spots - like we have a science org and a embedded org
20:10:02FromDiscord<jtv> Well, that's not what we generally mean by "user centric". Assuming you're the average user is a huge anti-pattern
20:10:23FromDiscord<jtv> If the community were user centric, the tooling wouldn't have been so bad for so long
20:10:50FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I think the problem there is that the community doesn't feel empowered or equipped to fix these things
20:11:23FromDiscord<Gumbercules> if today I decided I was going to try and fix nimsuggest - I wouldn't have a single person I could tap that would have a clear understanding of the problem and how to go about fixing it
20:11:43FromDiscord<jtv> Maybe so
20:11:47FromDiscord<Gumbercules> which is fine, but there's also no one that would be willing to spend time helping me figure that out or pointing me in the right direction as far as how to figure that out
20:12:22FromDiscord<Gumbercules> so it's easier for me to just deal with the shitty software than try to be proactive or community minded
20:12:22FromDiscord<ericdraven> I was just trying to figure out how I can open a PR fix the 'edit' link in the manual 🙂
20:12:32FromDiscord<ericdraven> Seems it broken when it was renamed from rst to md
20:12:48FromDiscord<ericdraven> (edit) "broken" => "broke"
20:13:35FromDiscord<ericdraven> guess it's nim-lang/website
20:14:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It'd be inside `nim-lang/nim` since the manual is generated with the docgen
20:15:24FromDiscord<ericdraven> I guess stuff like this doesn't really build morale (oldest issue in website). https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104139300444045472/image.png
20:15:51FromDiscord<jtv> @ElegantBeef to be fair, any criticism of the community you ever see from me does not apply to you. You go above and beyond 🙂
20:16:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I know my insults are free, it's crazy
20:16:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I should start monetising them
20:16:37FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah, I've paid a lot more for less quality entertainment 🙂
20:16:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Wait until you learn this is staged like the WWE
20:17:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> There are plenty of people who have gone above and beyond over the years
20:17:17FromDiscord<jtv> Wow, my life is a lie!!!
20:17:18FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but they inevitably burn out
20:17:40FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah, no doubt.
20:17:45FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and it's why Nim's contributor graph looks like it does
20:18:05FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and the makeup of the community over time as well
20:18:51*lumo_e quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20:19:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I just don't know how you fix anything at this point so I share your overall sentiment
20:19:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean it doesnt help that the "community manager" will mock people for a language barrier
20:19:11FromDiscord<jtv> I mean, I think the core point is that, if Araq hasn't noticed these trends and been willing to invest in objectively understanding and addressing, it's not going to improve.
20:19:23FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @Elegantbeef "I mean it doesnt": who? Miran?
20:19:32FromDiscord<jtv> Wow, that's also not right 😦
20:19:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea
20:19:39FromDiscord<willyboar> community manager should be voted 😜
20:19:41FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @jtv "I mean, I think": I believe he has and his response has been to back away even further
20:19:48FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @willyboar "community manager should be": please no haha
20:20:05FromDiscord<Gumbercules> it's not a popularity contest - it's about the ability to successfully manage and build a community
20:20:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Stefan mistook 'dude' as an insult due to the general sentiment, and later on Miran called Stefan dude multiple times due to that
20:20:20FromDiscord<jtv> Yes and I respect people just wanted to do their own thing with their own time. Getting popular doesn't have to be his goal
20:20:31FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Stefan mistook 'dude' as": yeah this kind of shit is just beyond ridiculous
20:20:45FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Stefan wrote a fucking book about Nim
20:20:57FromDiscord<willyboar> I don't understand why core team dont like stefan
20:21:05FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and a good book at that - one that's objectively better than Nim in Action - and all leadership has done is shit all over him
20:21:07FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and his efforts
20:21:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10101#66729 is... yea
20:21:59FromDiscord<Gumbercules> `less developed regions such as Africa and Asia` is this even debatable?
20:22:13FromDiscord<Gumbercules> much less xenophobic?
20:22:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I already have a nice long response to that comment so that's all i'll say here
20:23:08FromDiscord<Gumbercules> okay I take back my comment about Miran being a yes man
20:23:14FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Miran is simply an idiot
20:23:40FromDiscord<Gumbercules> but I mean, this is also just evidence on top of evidence
20:23:50FromDiscord<willyboar> miran response was very childish
20:23:55FromDiscord<jtv> Wow, that thread is incredibly disappointing
20:24:08FromDiscord<Gumbercules> there was some big debacle a while ago with Miran not taking some very serious issue seriously. I think it was that whole security incident.
20:24:13FromDiscord<jtv> Tho your response is quite good, firm but professional
20:25:27FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Miran's response is comical in so many ways
20:25:28FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @Elegantbeef "https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10101#66729 is... yea": That is super sad 😦
20:25:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> See you just load a response up with big words and everyone thinks you're suddenly a professional
20:25:45FromDiscord<Gumbercules> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vhJ
20:25:59FromDiscord<jtv> Well, I load up my responses with big words and everyone thinks I'm a chatbot 🙂
20:26:02FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Well Miran, "some dude" has a PhD and has written a book about Nim
20:26:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The issue jtv is you say things like "I'm very hydrocarbon"
20:26:33FromDiscord<Gumbercules> all you've done is provide extremely mediocre and arguably shitty community management over the past few years
20:26:44FromDiscord<jtv> When I tried to have some well reasoned discussions on the forum, that was the kind of ad hominem crap I'd get that pushed me away from there.
20:27:12FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and arguably hurt Nim in the long run due to your lack of skill in executing in the role you signed up for
20:28:07FromDiscord<jmgomez> I know you guys doenst like twitter, but Im just going to add that the guys that manages twitter does it pretty badly
20:28:25FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @jtv "When I tried to": the thing is - Araq has gotten better here but all leadership needs to
20:28:26FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @jmgomez "I know you guys": Miran
20:28:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> @jmgomez\: we all know elon musk is bad at twitter 😛
20:29:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> i'll retreat to my hide hole these types of conversations just annoy me
20:29:17FromDiscord<willyboar> (edit) "Miran" => "Miran. If you are talking about Nim Twitter."
20:29:26FromDiscord<jmgomez> lol
20:29:35FromDiscord<jmgomez> yes, I am
20:29:48FromDiscord<Gumbercules> no one is replacing what dom was supposed to be
20:30:17FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and without that replacement and an effective one, I don't have much hope for the trajectory either - the same old things that have been blockers to progress will continue being so
20:32:07FromDiscord<jtv> It could be randos on the forum saying those things, and the fact that it's generally okay to say it, is an issue. People should be able to discuss different opinions objectively
20:32:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> No Jtv, you're wrong.
20:32:58FromDiscord<jtv> I've also seen plenty of people blasted hard on that forum for asking basic questions, instead of treated with respect and pointed to the right resource
20:33:12FromDiscord<jtv> Thanks, @ElegantBeef I appreciate your different perspective 🙂
20:33:49FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I'm replying now, if only the nimforum wasn't so shitty and I could figure out how to quote someone in RST
20:40:02FromDiscord<Gumbercules> https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10101#66729 - done
20:43:28FromDiscord<willyboar> Lock is coming...
20:44:20FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @willyboar "Lock is coming...": hopefully a ban too - then I won't have to use the shitty ass forums anymore
20:44:49FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I was surprised i wasnt banned
20:46:56FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Elegantbeef "I was surprised i": If they banned you for this would be a scandal
20:47:10FromDiscord<Gumbercules> miran should ban himself
20:47:16FromDiscord<Gumbercules> tbqf
20:48:55FromDiscord<jtv> I'm def keeping that page around in case I ever do end up writing "Why I use Nim but think you should not" 🙂
20:50:21FromDiscord<Gumbercules> if there's one thing I will love Nim for, forever, it's this thread: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/5582
20:50:30FromDiscord<Gumbercules> and everything related to it
20:58:19FromDiscord<jtv> 🤯
21:00:01*demetera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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21:04:15FromDiscord<Dale> Wat
21:04:43FromDiscord<Dale> How did that project come to exist
21:05:04FromDiscord<jtv> That's quite the question
21:05:16FromDiscord<jtv> I'd see that movie
21:05:36*sagax joined #nim
21:07:32FromDiscord<Gumbercules> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vhP
21:07:59FromDiscord<Gumbercules> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vhQ
21:08:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> What if it was chatgpt 5 with a time machine
21:08:53FromDiscord<Gumbercules> might very well be
21:10:05FromDiscord<willyboar> That happened in the great Nim days
21:10:59FromDiscord<willyboar> It was nice hanging in Nim server back then
21:11:14FromDiscord<willyboar> (edit) "It was nice hanging ... in" added "around"
21:11:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Now there's just this beef asshole
21:12:29FromDiscord<ericdraven> Did you sue netflix for stealing your brand?
21:12:59FromDiscord<ericdraven> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104153791852462170/220px-Beef_28TV_series29_poster.png
21:18:24FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Now there's just this": You are one of the few reasons I remain in this server.
21:20:20FromDiscord<jtv> Same
21:21:41FromDiscord<ericdraven> This nimacros book is amazing. I love chapter 4, teaching mv usage and emacs keybindings.
21:22:03FromDiscord<jtv> Is that the book from that thread?
21:22:26FromDiscord<ericdraven> yes - https://github.com/FemtoEmacs/nimacros/blob/master/nimdoc.pdf
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21:25:55FromDiscord<willyboar> This book is a piece of history. It belongs to Nim museum
21:27:05FromDiscord<jtv> Chapter 19 is legendary
21:27:18*advesperacit quit ()
21:27:29FromDiscord<jtv> Thanks for actually looking. I'll repeat my sentiment:
21:27:31FromDiscord<jtv> 🤯
21:30:05FromDiscord<Gumbercules> still no clue who this person / these people are
21:30:31FromDiscord<Gumbercules> as time goes on, more evidence of them being actual people emerges but it's still the most bizarre shit ever
21:30:44FromDiscord<Gumbercules> like, what group of people on earth share the same forum account
21:30:48FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Gumbercules "still no clue who": Probably we will never find out
21:30:55FromDiscord<Gumbercules> yeah, I'm doubtful
21:31:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> one of those mysteries of the universe we aren't supposed to know
21:31:47FromDiscord<ericdraven> Def uploading this to my remarkable for a proper read through
21:33:31FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I love my remarkable
21:33:47FromDiscord<Gumbercules> esp + https://github.com/reHackable/awesome-reMarkable
21:33:47FromDiscord<ericdraven> I'm glad to hear that 😉
21:33:57FromDiscord<Gumbercules> do you work for them or something?
21:33:59FromDiscord<ericdraven> yes
21:34:03FromDiscord<Gumbercules> oh cool!
21:37:11krux02I just read the discussion about the Nim book and how hostile the Nim people are towards Stefan the author. This would be pretty much in line with my experience that Nim is generally pretty hostile towards people who do actual value contributions
21:37:19FromDiscord<jtv> LOL, someone on our slack just told me, "I just got a decent error message from nim!" Then 10 seconds later, "No wait, that's from gcc in emitted C"
21:37:32FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah
21:38:39krux02interesting, I didn't have too much problem with nim error messages
21:39:03krux02just that they were a little bit inconsitent in the usage of quotes and how to reference symbols
21:39:56FromDiscord<jtv> I said an hour or so ago that we have a BIG page on our internal wiki called "Nim's Dumb Error Messages" or something like that
21:40:08krux02Gumbercules: sharing the same forum account is something I would have considered to be a good idea as a 14 year old
21:40:38FromDiscord<ericdraven> This seems more like an art project than a 14yo tho
21:41:06krux02jtv: It's such a pitty, I when I worked on the Nim compiler, I really enjoyed to fix such probles such as error messages, because that was the code that actual people cared about.
21:41:12FromDiscord<willyboar> I strongly believe that was a single person work
21:41:13FromDiscord<Gumbercules> @jtv
21:41:20FromDiscord<Gumbercules> @QuiteQuietQ In terms of the "they" thing, there was apparently a mail over a year ago that was the reason for dom leaving the community, because he expressed a deeper sentiment, that not only did he feel (wrongly) that it's incorrect english, but the whole notion is against his religious beliefs. It's definitely something that continues to give me pause.
21:41:20krux02it wasn't this esoteric features that still had to prove themself
21:41:34FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @michaelb.eth "I found this just": oh no
21:42:34FromDiscord<jtv> Here is a small sampling of our page. I fill out the 3rd column after I help people:
21:42:53FromDiscord<jtv> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104161315997614151/Screenshot_2023-05-05_at_5.41.37_PM.png
21:44:11FromDiscord<Gumbercules> This is also quite disappointing to hear And it's hard to imagine that anyone thinks the Bible weighs in on something as trivial as pronouns. I'm pretty sure the Bible stresses love over any other action so too use it as an excuse for making someone else uncomfortable regardless of how you feel about there decision making or whatever, is pretty lame
21:44:31krux02I personally think that people have the right to reject the they/them pronoun for people as non-binary without getting canceled for it. This framing of people as "trasphobic" because they don't use the right pronounts is really very toxic and not very constructive.
21:44:37FromDiscord<Gumbercules> The Bible is the story of you and when I say you I mean every person
21:45:04krux02s/for people as non-binary/for people who identify as non-binary/
21:45:32FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I don't disagree with you but it's not hard to refer to someone as them if they're asking you to it doesn't mean you sign up for any ideology or are embracing anything You're just doing something that makes someone feel better in a given situation which we should all strive for
21:46:01FromDiscord<Gumbercules> No one likes to feel excluded or left out or be treated differently because of who they think they are
21:46:09FromDiscord<jtv> Well, let's put it this way. If I said, "Hi, my name is John, but I don't like it, please call me Jack", and you insisted on calling me John, you'd be a huge asshole, pretty objectively.
21:46:22FromDiscord<Gumbercules> The big offense in my opinion is to use religion as an excuse
21:46:25FromDiscord<jtv> It's no different in my mind, or the minds of many.
21:46:33FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I mean the Bible is just the story of each of us the whole thing is allegorical
21:46:46FromDiscord<Gumbercules> So to say that it weighs in one way or the other on an issue like pronouns is silly
21:47:32FromDiscord<Gumbercules> It's not the Bible that's causing you to think that way it's you that's causing you to think that way
21:48:26FromDiscord<Gumbercules> If you don't want to embrace pronouns or changing gender norms or whatever that's your decision but at least own it Don't say you have that decision because you believe in God. You're then just cheapening what it means to believe in God
21:48:32FromDiscord<that_dude> In reply to @jtv "Here is a small": Would it be possible to post more of the page? I would love to see more common issues
21:49:31krux02I don't think that religion and science goes well together. And computer science is science.
21:49:38FromDiscord<jtv> Maybe some day I'll clean it up, I dunno. Not sure I should post more w/o getting people's okays, there's a ton of cursing in there 🙂
21:49:43FromDiscord<Gumbercules> They do go well together and they did for most of human history
21:49:44FromDiscord<leetnewb> In reply to @Gumbercules "The big offense in": I think it also goes back to the original part of the conversation - nim needs community, so don't torch community
21:50:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Religion and science being exclusionary of one another is a relatively recent advent
21:50:07FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @not logged in "oh no": how would i attempt to wrap that in nim
21:50:24krux02yea, maybe that doesn't make too much sense, but I want to say, I agree that nothing should be excused with "religious believes"
21:50:47FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Right because we all have free will
21:51:05FromDiscord<Gumbercules> And God is inside every human God is what created us and we are all creators so to say another human is ungodly is nonsensical to begin with
21:51:06FromDiscord<ricky> In reply to @jtv "Well, let's put it": that's some reinterpret_cast level shiet
21:51:17FromDiscord<ricky> ya'll got runtime polymorphism irl?
21:51:20FromDiscord<Gumbercules> God is everything and God is nothing God is the box God is the space inside the box and God is the space around the box
21:52:05krux02the difference between "belief" and "religious belief" is, when you believe something, somebody may have a different opinion and you can discuss it and maybe change your opininon, when somebody disagrees with your "religious belief" it's called blasphemy and has to be punished by buring you alive
21:52:20FromDiscord<Gumbercules> So I don't know why religion has to be dragged through the mud - Even if someone just wants to drag religion through the mud and leave God and spirituality alone that's fine but defending intolerant or rude behavior with these themes is ignorant
21:52:46FromDiscord<jtv> sent a long message, see http://ix.io/4vhV
21:52:50FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @krux02 "the difference between "belief"": Yes at least in the case of organized religion and dogma which go hand in hand
21:53:03FromDiscord<jtv> (edit) "long message," => "code paste," | "http://ix.io/4vhV" => "https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vhW"
21:53:10FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> shouldn't religion talk go in #offtopic ?
21:53:11FromDiscord<jtv> (edit) "https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vhW" => "https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vhX"
21:53:14FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I personally don't mind the religious undertones in Nim
21:53:23FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Well interestingly enough it is on topic given today's discussion
21:53:30FromDiscord<Gumbercules> At least to some degree
21:53:49FromDiscord<jtv> That's you tried to take a reference to a non-ref type. But how the heck is anyone supposed to know that?
21:53:59FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @Gumbercules "I personally don't mind": undertones?
21:54:11FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Name was originally named Nimrod who is a biblical figure
21:54:20FromDiscord<jtv> I think he means it's pretty explicit
21:54:23FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Nimble was originally named Babel after the Tower of Babel
21:54:37FromDiscord<jtv> I mean, it's in a bunch of places for sure.
21:54:46FromDiscord<Gumbercules> There are literal Bible verses quoted in certain nim modules
21:54:55FromDiscord<Gumbercules> It's pretty obvious if you look around a bit
21:54:57krux02hmm, that might explain why me and Araq didn't get along after all, I had no idea all these years
21:55:11FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Gumbercules "Nimble was originally named": Fits better 😃
21:55:13FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @Gumbercules "Name was originally named": oh no.
21:55:22FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> i did not know that
21:55:28FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Why is that an oh no thing?
21:55:42FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> and I though "nimble" cause it is fast and made in nim
21:55:46FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> play on words
21:55:47FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> ig not
21:55:54FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Like I don't get the reaction when someone finds out something has a religious theme associated with it
21:55:56FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @not logged in "shouldn't religion talk go": I am slo smelling the offtopic in here
21:55:59FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah I don't care if religion is important to people or not. I care more about how they treat others.
21:56:05FromDiscord<Gumbercules> It's not inherently bad or good although depending on your beliefs I guess you might consider it a very good thing
21:56:06FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @Gumbercules "Why is that an": because of my lack of knowladge
21:56:17FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Okay that makes sense excuse me then
21:56:20FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> (edit) "slo" => "also"
21:56:38FromDiscord<leetnewb> It could rub people the wrong way if seen as proselytizing. not going to wade into that one in main though
21:56:48krux02some people prefer to avoid anything that is remotely religious to avoid certain kinds of situations
21:56:55FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> Ok, on topic question: how would I go about wrapping a C lib without losing brain cells
21:57:11FromDiscord<Gumbercules> The whole religion is bad thing is as tired as the trope of religious people all being bigots
21:57:15krux02and when you find out that something was religious for a very long time you just didn't know it is an "oh no" moment
21:57:49FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @krux02 "some people prefer to": Yeah I guess I wasn't really asking as far as why he might be saying it but more as why is that the common response these days?
21:58:02FromDiscord<jtv> futhark aims to make it as easy as possible, @Nlits (Ping on reply)
21:58:24FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @jtv "futhark aims to make": i have looked at it once before, and lost brain cells. I might just not get it, idk
21:58:28krux02for some people religion is important, and equally for other people it is important to stay out of it.
21:58:33FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I have run into my fair share of intolerant religious people but many religious people are extremely tolerant and are some of the nicest people I know
21:58:52FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Yeah but coding Bible verses doesn't infer someone's religious it just means they read the Bible and like to quote it
21:59:02FromDiscord<Gumbercules> The Bible is pretty separate from organized religion
21:59:09FromDiscord<Gumbercules> And modern Christianity
21:59:12FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> I’m not a moderator, but can we please move discussions about religion, fish on Fridays, pronouns, and dog petting into #offtopic
21:59:47FromDiscord<jtv> Well, a lot of it is about whether the expressed views of Araq have an impact on the community. That part feels ontopic
21:59:58FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @michaelb.eth "I’m not a moderator,": Again the convo branched off And it is tangential because of nims relationship to these themes
22:00:07FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I am also not saying we can't move the discussion there I'm fine with that
22:00:18FromDiscord<Gumbercules> But it wasn't just a random topic FYI
22:00:40FromDiscord<Gumbercules> It was brought up in response to something someone said earlier about a situation on the d language forms
22:00:44krux02when I hear religion, I think "communal narcissist", or Jehovah's Witnesses (pretend to be nice but actually be extremely cruel to people who disagree with you)
22:02:09FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @Gumbercules "<@659045544659779605> In terms of": Everyone should be entitled to their religious beliefs, but programming communities need to be secular.
22:02:50FromDiscord<voidwalker> I believe in the Nim god, how is that secular ? : D
22:02:51FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> sure, and I like to discuss/debate religion, etc. in general, but I think we can leave this channel to mostly technical discussions on programming with Nim
22:03:06FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> (edit) "general," => "general fwiw,"
22:03:18krux02programming languages are actually pretty religious if you ask me, just think about the tabs vs spaces discussions
22:03:29FromDiscord<jtv> That doesn't bother me, if someone names a language to honor their dog, doesn't mean I have to fawn over their dog. But I think it's equally fine.
22:04:39FromDiscord<jtv> Eh, so you don't want any discussion about the overall advancement of the nim community, just tech discussions. 🙄
22:04:51krux02instead of praying you contribute with pull requests and stuff and get a lot of commitment, and when somebody leaves the community to join another community they are the apostates
22:05:07FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @krux02 "programming languages are actually": St. Ignucius would probably agree
22:05:24FromDiscord<⃟⃟> stallman is an idiot
22:05:28FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @ericdraven "Everyone should be entitled": I don't know that I necessarily agree with this
22:05:46FromDiscord<Gumbercules> But I think the only alternative is embracing all forms of spirituality
22:05:59FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @Gumbercules "I don't know that": I think it's the only way everyone's religion can be respected. But then I've grown up in a secular society 🤷‍♂️
22:06:31FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Right but religion and spirituality are very separate things and even religion and organized religion have a lot of divergences
22:06:37krux02stallman is not an idiot, ho mad (in the now long distant past) many very important contributions to the free software idea
22:06:38FromDiscord<dinHeld> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that Nim suffers from the lisp curse
22:06:58FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I think dogma is the issue and it's a community lacks dogma and embraces everyone if the leader wants to theme things spiritually I don't know why that would be a non-starter
22:07:00FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @dinHeld "Correct me if I'm": infected through the macro system probably.
22:07:04FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @jtv "Eh, so you don't": I think it’s very good to discuss those things, actually, maybe there could be a #Community channel
22:07:09FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @dinHeld "Correct me if I'm": What is lisp curse?
22:07:17*sagax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:07:34krux02but Stallman is not a person I would enjoy to hang out with. I can't name it, but his character has some unlikeable traits.
22:07:43FromDiscord<⃟⃟> In reply to @krux02 "stallman is not an": stallman is an idiot, look at the stuff like his stupid ignucius and gravmass, plus hes ANTI freedom in many important aspects, ironically
22:07:50FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @michaelb.eth "I think it’s very": It'd be nice if it was easier to have new channels provision but I'm not even sure who can do that now
22:08:09FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Doesn't stallman want to end humans? I'm pretty sure he thinks human should stop reproducing because he hates human so much
22:08:11FromDiscord<dinHeld> In reply to @willyboar "What is lisp curse?": tldr: many people tinkering on their own thing, but not much collaboration
22:08:31FromDiscord<⃟⃟> nim should BAN stallman from contributing because of his personaly views
22:08:34FromDiscord<jtv> I spent a lot of time with him about 20 years ago, and I can attest to him being smart and idealistic but also quite manipulative and unkind.
22:08:42FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @krux02 "but Stallman is not": Like foot eating?
22:09:03krux02it's not like stallman does any form of significant software contributions anymore these days
22:09:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I never thought of him as Dom or an idiot but I do question a lot of the things he claims to stand for
22:09:28FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Dumb
22:09:36FromDiscord<willyboar> Nim suffers from community management.
22:09:45FromDiscord<jtv> Heh, have you met rms as well? He always used to insist on family style dining, and would then eat kind of like a cave man
22:09:56krux02Stallman is pretty annoying when it about calling Linux GNU/Linux because linus is just this small kernel in this huge GNU project
22:10:00FromDiscord<willyboar> (edit) "Nim suffers from community management. ... " added "@dinHeld"
22:10:22FromDiscord<jmgomez> Still complaining about Nim guys? xD
22:10:45FromDiscord<jtv> I have a friend who used to LOVE to bait him by saying "Linux" around him, then arguing quite extensively that there isn't enough "gnu" in distros relative to Linux to merit the credit.
22:11:10FromDiscord<jtv> And certainly not in the kernel
22:11:14FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @jtv "Heh, have you met": I think his fight for free software is a good one as well as free information but if you want to win a fight in public trying your hardest to look like a basement dweller who hasn't gone outside in quite some time, probably isn't the best approach especially in a society as materialistic as ours
22:11:30FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Nor is telling people that you want to put an end to their species
22:11:37FromDiscord<Gumbercules> There's a lot of self-defeatism going on with that man
22:11:48krux02jmgomez: nah, I evolved somehow into defending Richard Stallman, for some reason
22:12:35FromDiscord<⃟⃟> stallman spreads disinformation on his website too
22:12:37FromDiscord<Gumbercules> It's like the incel community
22:12:52FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Complain about not getting laid and then spend all your time on the internet blaming someone else for not getting laid
22:13:26FromDiscord<Gumbercules> But I think this is the number one problem facing humanity - lack of accountability and ownership and it being easier to blame someone else rather than look in the mirror
22:13:28krux02I think there is decades of agony accumulated in Richard Stallman that made him into this totally non-likeble person he is these days. But I like to belive that in the 80s he was a pretty cool dude
22:13:40FromDiscord<jtv> sent a long message, see http://ix.io/4vi0
22:13:47FromDiscord<jtv> But wouldn't have repeated that in a group
22:14:14FromDiscord<dinHeld> In reply to @willyboar "Nim suffers from community": Yeah. Lisp doesn't really have a leadership, that's how it ended up like that. It's sad to see Nim slipping into this pattern
22:14:44FromDiscord<jtv> Lisp used to have Guy Steele
22:14:48FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @dinHeld "Yeah. Lisp doesn't really": Lisp would have had a difficult time no matter what avoiding that fate I think
22:15:25FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Lisp is much more an academic endeavor and has always attracted people who are more interested in the theoretical side of computer science rather than be practical side
22:16:00FromDiscord<⃟⃟> what was this convo even about? nim book in africa/asia?
22:16:01FromDiscord<jtv> It used to be in lots of big pros envs in the 90's and early 2000's
22:16:14FromDiscord<Gumbercules> And because it is exceedingly simple to implement many scheme and lisp specifications, you have a deluge of people building their own which leads to a fragmented ecosystem
22:16:16FromDiscord<jtv> It's more that better functional languages came along
22:16:43FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Nim never had these problems but Nim has other problems like having no specification
22:16:47FromDiscord<dinHeld> maybe. I don't really know the details
22:16:50FromDiscord<jtv> The original lisp is basically still around as scheme, it's not too different from lisp in the 1950's
22:16:56FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @⃟⃟ "what was this convo": How do you not have a name on this server?
22:17:03krux02Gumbercules: Nim has a "specification"
22:17:13FromDiscord<⃟⃟> In reply to @michaelb.eth "How do you not": are you on mobile
22:17:14FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @krux02 "<@204328759715692544>: Nim has a": I'm sorry but the manual doesn't count
22:17:21FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @⃟⃟ "are you on mobile": Yes
22:17:35FromDiscord<⃟⃟> my name is a unicode that phones seem to not display
22:17:36FromDiscord<jtv> And CLOS definitely got way too clunky. But even I have written tons of lisp... 80% elisp 🙂
22:17:39FromDiscord<⃟⃟> idk why
22:17:40*Notxor quit (Remote host closed the connection)
22:17:49FromDiscord<ericdraven> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104170109360160808/image.png
22:17:57FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @⃟⃟ "idk why": Gotcha, was just curious
22:18:07FromDiscord<⃟⃟> yeah its those diamonds
22:18:08FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I'd say the common lisp community at this point is probably healthier than Nims
22:18:15FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Even if it has less users
22:18:17FromDiscord<⃟⃟> idk why but mobile dosent render it
22:18:20krux02my lisp is also mostly elisp, and I have to say, I kind of like elisp for what it does.
22:18:31FromDiscord<jtv> Same
22:18:35FromDiscord<⃟⃟> based emacs!!!
22:19:16FromDiscord<⃟⃟> nim anti stallman group represent
22:19:26krux02it is not a shoehorned language, it is made for one thing and does it pretty well, without these shoehoring artifacts that are pretty common when shoehoring happens
22:19:50FromDiscord<Gumbercules> The elephant in the room is that the people or maybe person who can do something about all this community strife most likely isn't and most likely won't read any of this
22:19:58FromDiscord<ericdraven> I did give emacs/evil a go for a couple of years but couldn't stand the slow. much happier in neovim these days. Even stopped using org mode.
22:20:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> (edit) "The elephant in the room is that the people or maybe person who can do something about all this community strife most likely isn't ... and" added "reading"
22:20:11krux02may I say that stallman wrote elisp with also the java dude
22:20:18FromDiscord<⃟⃟> In reply to @ericdraven "I did give emacs/evil": the problem was using doomemacs
22:20:32FromDiscord<⃟⃟> or evil
22:20:34FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Gumbercules "I'd say the common": I heard good things about chicken scheme
22:20:38FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @⃟⃟ "the problem was using": I tried spaceemacs before that and even rolled my own config.
22:20:46FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @willyboar "I heard good things": Chicken scheme is cool but no native threads
22:20:46FromDiscord<ericdraven> haha you can't say the problem was using evil.
22:21:02FromDiscord<⃟⃟> In reply to @ericdraven "I tried spaceemacs before": i launch a whole new emacs instance when i open file and its fine
22:21:21krux02I used spacemacs in the past as well, I did not really enjoy it, I wrote my own custom config instead, but now I dumped it in favor of doom emacs.
22:21:29FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @⃟⃟ "i launch a whole": stockholm syndrome.
22:21:51FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> vanilla Emacs with bbatsov’s prelude is a nice setup, been using that combo (with some personalizations) since ~2012
22:21:59FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Lack of multi-threading is how chicken scheme achieves its speed as it's garbage collector only needs to deal with a thread local heap
22:22:01krux02every programming language and every religion is basically stockholm syndrome
22:22:10FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Which is very similar to what Nim did before the advent of ark and orc
22:22:27FromDiscord<⃟⃟> In reply to @ericdraven "stockholm syndrome.": lol. i also use vscode so im not a slave of emacs, emacs has problem but speed isnt one , except for single really lines
22:22:33FromDiscord<Gumbercules> And why sharing memory between threads and nim used to be so painful
22:22:38FromDiscord<jtv> I'm an emacs user, and you have to be able to laugh at yourself. Eight-hundred Megs And Constantly Swapping. Escape-Meta-Alt-Ctrl-Shift, Emacs Makes All Computers Slow
22:23:16FromDiscord<⃟⃟> emacs using 27mb for gui instance rn for win10
22:23:33krux02way too much
22:23:37krux02should be 8
22:23:44FromDiscord<⃟⃟> why
22:23:56FromDiscord<jtv> Well, back in the day, most emacs users did EVERYTHING in emacs. Read email, news, shells, ...
22:24:00krux02Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping
22:24:19krux02also eat and sleep
22:24:30krux02play tetris
22:24:31FromDiscord<jtv> It was originally Eight, then people started using Eighty when that became more realistic. I just upped it to keep up with computing power 🙂
22:24:54FromDiscord<jtv> Yeah, M-x eliza was the canonical example of emacs bloat
22:25:10krux02have a therapist session (doctor)
22:25:41FromDiscord<⃟⃟> i dont consider that bloat since it dosent get in the way
22:25:49FromDiscord<ericdraven> Now we're on to the good religious discussions :p
22:25:50krux02what is eliza?
22:26:16FromDiscord<⃟⃟> suckless is possibly worst thing done to computer industry in last 300 years, now people think feature is bloat
22:26:18FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @krux02 "what is eliza?": AI therapist that has shipped with Emacs for years and years
22:26:23FromDiscord<⃟⃟> In reply to @krux02 "what is eliza?": chatbot
22:26:35krux02the thing I like about emacs is, I used it for Nim, now I use it for Scala and Python, I can use it for C++ and it just works.
22:26:49FromDiscord<Nanjizal> wow nim channel is on fire about Stallman but only read a little on Nim so no knowledge on this, was hoping haxe would target Nim but seems the project stalled. Would Reflaxe make it more viable.
22:27:05krux02I don't have to relearn yet another IDE, I really don't want to do IDE hopping anymore I already do language and distribution hopping
22:27:12krux02I need some consistency
22:27:15FromDiscord<ericdraven> krux02[irc]: same applies for neovim or vscode tho
22:27:30FromDiscord<⃟⃟> neovim does not just work, vscode does
22:27:31FromDiscord<ericdraven> well basically all the things that can use lsps I guess
22:27:43FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Nanjizal "wow nim channel is": Someone here hoping Nim to target BEAM 😜
22:28:02FromDiscord<⃟⃟> vim is prototype brain melting tech computer peter
22:28:07FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @⃟⃟ "neovim does not just": There's a lot of plugins to configure for vscode as well 🙂
22:28:16FromDiscord<ericdraven> These days I just use lazyvim tho
22:28:18FromDiscord<Nanjizal> https://github.com/RapidFingers/Craxe↵https://github.com/RobertBorghese/reflaxe
22:28:27FromDiscord<Nanjizal> Beam?
22:28:31FromDiscord<ericdraven> (https://www.lazyvim.org)
22:28:38FromDiscord<⃟⃟> heres an obvious example
22:28:41FromDiscord<⃟⃟> why is it
22:28:52FromDiscord<⃟⃟> left down up right
22:29:19FromDiscord<⃟⃟> eventhough up/down is more natural
22:29:21FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Nanjizal "Beam?": Erlang VM
22:29:59krux02yea, but I have religious conflicts with vscode, and neovim I've tried in the past used it a lot and never understood the hype. It's nice to have a common editor for so many different things yea I get it, but this modal editing was just not really that much of an improvement, but very painful to learn, and the config language was just a mess, I never managed to understand how the syntax actually worked and I ended
22:29:59krux02having commants, or things I thought were comments, as part of the error messages
22:30:29FromDiscord<⃟⃟> btw
22:30:34FromDiscord<⃟⃟> why u on irc lol
22:30:42FromDiscord<⃟⃟> u cant see pfps!!
22:30:55FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @krux02 "yea, but I have": At least with modal you're less likely to get carpal syndrome 😉
22:31:15krux02yea I already use neo keyboard layout to prevent that one
22:31:20FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @ericdraven "(https://www.lazyvim.org)": Interesting 🤔
22:31:21FromDiscord<⃟⃟> In reply to @ericdraven "At least with modal": correction: vim is not the only modal style
22:31:22FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @Nanjizal "wow nim channel is": Why target Nin with haxe when you can just target the languags Nim compiles to?
22:31:32FromDiscord<⃟⃟> emacs can become modal very easily
22:31:35FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Nim targeting Haxe would make more sense....
22:31:39FromDiscord<⃟⃟> without packages
22:31:40FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @⃟⃟ "correction: vim is not": well we were comparing to emacs?
22:32:15krux02pfps? what is that?
22:32:22FromDiscord<⃟⃟> vim also is unideal for anti carpal tunnel
22:32:38FromDiscord<⃟⃟> buy a ergo keybord
22:33:14krux02most ergonomic keyboards fuck up tha layout so much, that the de neo layout becomes pretty much a mess to use
22:33:22FromDiscord<Nanjizal> I find vscode quite heavy on old thinkpad, was hoping new editor would arrive, rust have Lapce which seems interesting and also I am aware pop_os have some stuff within iced that may go somewhere. Personally having moved to linux miss textmate
22:33:47FromDiscord<willyboar> Lapce is cool
22:33:47krux02just learn to use emacs
22:33:48FromDiscord<Nanjizal> does nim have an editor
22:34:06FromDiscord<⃟⃟> In reply to @krux02 "most ergonomic keyboards fuck": the traditional kb layout is unideal tho
22:34:07FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Nanjizal "does nim have an": Yes moe
22:34:13krux02it is horrible, but at least you won't need to ever leave it behind
22:34:15FromDiscord<⃟⃟> like ur pinky gets raped
22:34:23FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> There’s always evil-mode if you want Emacs and Vim in the same editor: https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil
22:34:26FromDiscord<Nanjizal> can i code other stuff in moe?
22:34:43krux02or doom-emacs
22:35:00FromDiscord<⃟⃟> ur thumb presses literally one button on both hands
22:35:13FromDiscord<Nanjizal> would moe work with haxe code, as I have stuff to finish on that
22:35:23krux02that is as of right now, the most feature rich full batteries included, emacs distribution (if that is an actual term)
22:35:29FromDiscord<⃟⃟> In reply to @krux02 "pfps? what is that?": profile pictures
22:35:50FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Nanjizal "would moe work with": I didn't use it. Just know that exists
22:35:57krux02lol, IRC and profile pictures
22:36:17FromDiscord<⃟⃟> irc considered harmful
22:36:46FromDiscord<⃟⃟> u benefit from discord proxying images so someone dosent steal ur ip cuz u click a link i assume
22:36:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I can see the chat didnt get more reasonable
22:37:00*marcus joined #nim
22:37:09krux02and I can't read you username, I guess that's fair isn't it?
22:37:13marcusirc is awesome <3
22:37:36krux02IRC is awesome ♥♥♥
22:37:38krux02♣♦♥♠
22:37:49FromDiscord<Nanjizal> For neovim I think someone in haxe community has been working on making plugins easier, https://github.com/danielo515/haxe-nvim but yet to try neovim. Perhaps can port to nim
22:37:51FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @Elegantbeef "I can see the": I have almost 2 years to enjoy a convo in Nim server
22:38:00FromDiscord<⃟⃟> just sayin the discord irc relay gives you guys robot pfps, do you like being represented like that, as a green robot
22:38:06krux02neo layout is awesome because it allows me to send ♥♥♥ on IRC
22:38:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> well it's actually a gravatar pfp
22:38:41krux02gravatar?
22:38:54marcushttps://dogfood.convos.chat/file/2/18c5yXFcCFJXJGnw fromdiscord is a rainbow of some sort in my irc client.
22:39:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The bridge uses gravatar to give irc users profile pictures
22:39:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So you get a different profile picture based off your name
22:39:21krux02it's a robot head, isn't it?
22:39:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> image.png https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104175577067429998/image.png
22:39:33FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Picture of the different avatars you schmucks have
22:39:52FromDiscord<willyboar> Robot portraits
22:40:00krux02no I am a pickle
22:40:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Pickle rick, the funniest shit i've ever seen
22:40:41marcusapparently I'm a mona lisa, not a green robot?
22:41:26krux02I guess in the future we will have midjourney paint picutures for us based on our chat history and how it imagines a person who could write stuff like that
22:41:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Hell yea I always wanted to be a neckbeard
22:42:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I hope i get the coolest fedora
22:42:08FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @krux02 "I guess in the": Nice project idea. Aivatar
22:42:23krux02that it is not so different from what I actually do in my head when I don't see profile pictures at all and I have to rely on my very own neural network to come up with images for all of you
22:42:55krux02keep the brain cells active
22:45:09FromDiscord<Marcus> hmm, I'm now in this channel on all three sides of the bridge. I might have a chat client problem. 😕
22:45:31marcusoh, matrix goes via discord to irc? :) fun
22:46:32FromDiscord<arne> I just wanted to ask midjourney to imagine an elegant beef that wears a fedora, but I can't reach the channel anymore for some reson
22:47:00FromDiscord<arne> btw, I don't have a profile pacture on discord either, I guess the pickle from IRC is even better
22:47:42FromDiscord<Nanjizal> not a fan of 'schmuck', in my non code day job a rich condsending idiot cursed me when I had tried very hard to serve him right at end of shift it really annoyed. In terms of midjourney, i feel somewhat indifferent in the same way as getting into photography as I can when bothered paint well, so why not make my own image. But like a calculator.. it is likely a tool that you use where needed, but perhaps it is not needed as much as some
22:48:25FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @arne "btw, I don't have": Take the pickle bot image and put it on discord
22:48:47FromDiscord<ericdraven> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104177905208135861/ericdraven_an_elegant_beef_wearing_a_fedora_a191165a-765e-4e76-9430-ac5abe89b761.png
22:49:26krux02btw arne=krux02
22:49:52krux02nice
22:49:55FromDiscord<willyboar> Beef new avatar
22:50:08krux02@Elegantbeef that should be your new avatar
22:51:50FromDiscord<willyboar> @ericdraven please try mine too
22:52:21FromDiscord<Nanjizal> AI images may look cool but it is rather a coarse tool, if any nice image is ok then fine but it seems more of an inspiration tool than something like a paint brush where you have real control
22:53:47FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @willyboar "<@264720288556515349> please try mine": https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104179160563331072/ericdraven_Willy_The_Boar_wearing_a_Fedora_fe450bb6-60db-4e86-8cec-53e97fbe3cb5.png
22:53:50FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @Nanjizal "For neovim I think": I still don't get all the haxe talk
22:54:09FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Or why you'd want to compile haxe to Nim
22:54:48FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @ericdraven "": I'll bite if you have the time and credits
22:54:48FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @ericdraven "": Cool! Thank you.
22:55:02FromDiscord<arne> ok
22:55:06FromDiscord<Nanjizal> at least with AI code you can ask it to do better when it does not create a working algorithm.. but with images from what I have seen there is less connection with requirements or way of sculpting the result properly.
22:55:08FromDiscord<arne> I am now that pickle
22:56:00FromDiscord<arne> @Nanjizal it is being worked on to have more control on AI imagages
22:56:03FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @Nanjizal "at least with AI": Language is very inadequate for describing art
22:56:11FromDiscord<Nanjizal> I have used haxe for a long time so it would be nice to use nim directly only when need speed
22:57:57FromDiscord<arne> well, there is also JAI as a nim alternative
22:58:11FromDiscord<ericdraven> In reply to @Gumbercules "I'll bite if you": https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104180266475454535/ericdraven_the_son_of_gumby_and_hercules_wearing_a_fedora_cfab3c0e-36dc-4d77-9df2-ee6986339ebe.png
22:58:26FromDiscord<Nanjizal> I have taught painting and trying to tell someone how to paint is very hard often easier to show them, it seems to take a long time with words. Words work well with symbolism, images are not as related to symbolism and often the opposite
22:59:12FromDiscord<arne> but being in the Jai beta I feel so much like I am in Nim, but 5 years ago, all the same discussions
22:59:14FromDiscord<Nanjizal> the mind often works with symbolism and does not look.. with art you have to block that to
22:59:42FromDiscord<Nanjizal> actually feel and to see
22:59:57FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @arne "but being in the": When jai would be open source?
23:00:10FromDiscord<arne> I would assume after the game has been launched
23:00:12FromDiscord<Nanjizal> so i am not sure AI is really yet able to be sculpted that way
23:00:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean Jai will never be open source given Jblow's views 😛
23:01:48FromDiscord<arne> I think strong views are important for success, and with strong views you will have people who disagree
23:02:05FromDiscord<arne> if you don't ever disagree with anybody you are set up for failure
23:02:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well there are strong views and dumb views based in what i can only imagine is egotism
23:02:14FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @arne "I think strong views": Yeah but someone with his views aren't just strong there built on fabrications
23:02:26FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Like his views on open source
23:02:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "Pull requests are offensive"↵"Open source software should have a group of 'contributors' that control the code that enters the code base"
23:02:58FromDiscord<Gumbercules> They're even
23:02:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Like you cannot make this shit up 😄
23:03:09FromDiscord<ericdraven> Braid was still a pretty cool game
23:03:28FromDiscord<arne> I don't know too much about that, I just know that he doesn't like the idea to become an an open source pull request maintainer, and I can fully respect that opinion
23:03:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "Open source software never does anything unique"
23:03:54FromDiscord<Gumbercules> It could be the coolest game ever and his stance on open source software would still be ridiculous
23:04:00FromDiscord<arne> but he is kind of right.
23:04:02FromDiscord<Nanjizal> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4gGJ7XXlC0 mojo is not released yet, you can only consider languages that are not tied tightly to corporations and are open, anything beyond is like an unimplemented idea?
23:04:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Lol
23:04:20FromDiscord<Nanjizal> mojo is not yet relevant.
23:04:28FromDiscord<arne> Open source softwar, at least the big software, always tries to copy an existing commercial solution.
23:04:43FromDiscord<arne> gcc -> a free C C++ fortran etc compiler
23:04:54FromDiscord<arne> gimp -> a free photoshop
23:05:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> there are plenty of counter examples
23:05:12FromDiscord<arne> blender -> a free 3D modeler
23:05:27FromDiscord<arne> linux -> a free unix
23:06:26FromDiscord<arne> and then there are all the open source reverse engineering projects
23:06:33FromDiscord<ericdraven> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_C_Compiler apparently the first c compiler was bsd licensed?
23:06:38FromDiscord<arne> a free NTFS driver
23:06:55FromDiscord<arne> a free diablo source code reverese engineering project
23:07:05FromDiscord<arne> Open Transport Type Deluxe
23:07:19FromDiscord<arne> Open Roller Coaster Tycoon
23:07:32FromDiscord<arne> Spring RTS on open soruce Total Annihilation
23:07:48FromDiscord<arne> Open Red Alert
23:07:51FromDiscord<ericdraven> just listing things that are copies of commercial software doesn't prove your point 😉
23:08:12FromDiscord<arne> no it doesn't prove anything, but thoes are the free software projects in my mind.
23:08:34FromDiscord<ericdraven> most things in general are copies or iterations over existing things.
23:08:50FromDiscord<arne> gnu octave -> open soruce matlab
23:09:49FromDiscord<arne> I think a lot of open source projects don't have a clean leadership, but if you try to mimic something that already exists, but as free software, everybody knows the direction
23:10:04FromDiscord<Nanjizal> well ideas in haxe seems to have been replicated with creation of swift and Typescript but then borrows much from targets, expect nim has same. I think the open aspect is important for developers because investment of time and career is important, but idividuals have limited capacity of time and money, but to a corporation they create new ecosystems to make money or leave ones that are not giving them money, and the time capacity or mone
23:10:22FromDiscord<Nanjizal> (edit) "well ideas in haxe seems to have been replicated with creation of swift and Typescript but then ... borrows" added "haxe"
23:11:10FromDiscord<arne> I just think that JBlow isn't totally wrong with his opinions on open source software
23:11:27FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean video game reimplementations are a dumb example
23:11:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Cause their entire point is archival and posterity
23:11:52FromDiscord<Nanjizal> so for an individual it makes more sense to invest in a less popular language that will be around in 50 years than to embrace a corporations language that will last only a decade.
23:12:02FromDiscord<arne> yes, but those are also the projects that work well in open source
23:12:30FromDiscord<Gumbercules> @Nanjizal re:haxe it makes noSENASE
23:12:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's quite a simplistic view of software to say open source copied another software
23:12:33FromDiscord<Gumbercules> sense
23:12:34FromDiscord<Gumbercules> sorry - baby
23:12:39FromDiscord<arne> free softwar is most of the time, people work on stuff they want to work on, there is no command hierachy
23:12:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's not like photoshop was the first software to do photo manipulation
23:12:51FromDiscord<arne> and that naturally leads to certain types of projects
23:13:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There is no such thing as original work in my view everything is a derivative
23:13:17FromDiscord<arne> a common thing in open source software is: lots of ports to all sorts of platforms, something that just doesn't happen in closed soruce applications
23:13:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So to say that OSS is derivative whilst dismissing proprietary is a silly statement
23:13:27FromDiscord<Gumbercules> you'd be compiling to nim which compiles to C/C++
23:13:33FromDiscord<Gumbercules> which haxe can already compile to
23:13:49FromDiscord<Gumbercules> the route to go is Nim being able to compile to haxe
23:14:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> that makes way more sense
23:14:45FromDiscord<arne> I am not saying that OSS is derivative per se, but I am saying that derivative OSS is usually the more successful OSS
23:15:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That's a chicken and egg problem, of course replacement software for other software will be popular
23:15:19FromDiscord<arne> it just works better in the environment that OSS provides
23:15:22FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> If no one has a need for the software how does it succeed 😄
23:15:39FromDiscord<willyboar> I believe programming languages must always be open source.
23:16:40FromDiscord<Nanjizal> There are times when opensouce emulates parts of closed as that is what users will use, and there are times when closed source sees how well opensource solutions work and copy them. It is all just ideas, corportations can pay some of the best to keep ideas more closed but it is best to limit the use of closed idea systems, it is normally a balance, just many focus on one side or the other.
23:16:51FromDiscord<arne> on the other hand, if you write truely innovative software that has the potential to change the work and you have the option to make it free software for everybody, or to charge and butload of money per usage knowing tha people will pay for it because it is so revolutionary, what decision would you do?
23:17:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean I'm vehemently against proprietary software in my tooling
23:17:49FromDiscord<arne> me, too
23:17:50FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I view software as a tool and if I cannot fix it, it's a massive downside
23:18:05FromDiscord<Nanjizal> Opensource individuals will try to find models that keep some of the core open but pay the bills.
23:19:02FromDiscord<arne> yea, vscode vs vscodium
23:19:10FromDiscord<arne> chrome chromium
23:19:18FromDiscord<Nanjizal> code is kind of like science it is crazy to have it closed, but much of parmacuticals is closed?
23:19:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Github vs 9000 different git hosts 😄
23:19:41FromDiscord<arne> parmacuticals 😛
23:20:01FromDiscord<Nanjizal> I need AI spelling !
23:20:40FromDiscord<arne> it is not like there are no github, but in open source, projects
23:20:58*xet7 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
23:21:54FromDiscord<ericdraven> github search is frickin' amazing. 😕
23:22:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The new search is ok
23:22:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The old search was like using a match to search through a full oil bin
23:22:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "Yep there's oil, and i need new eyebrows"
23:23:45FromDiscord<ericdraven> yeah, I ,meant the new one. 🙂
23:24:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I know it's a data scale problem, but who'd have though an exact match was so hard to implement
23:31:12FromDiscord<Marcus> Is there no way to install nim with winget on windows?
23:36:55FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @Marcus "Is there no way": Not sure but choosenim in an MSYS2 Bash shell works nicely, thoug iirc you have to mkdir a directory in $USERPROFILE before running the choosenim install script
23:37:07FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> (edit) "sure" => "sure,"
23:38:08FromDiscord<ericdraven> I'm starting to lose faith in choosenim.
23:38:11FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @Gumbercules "the route to go": a backend for ahxe hah, didnt thought about it. That will piss them off for sure lol
23:38:20FromDiscord<jmgomez> (edit) "ahxe" => "haxe"
23:39:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nim -\> Haxe -\> C -\> Clang -\> WASM -\> Wasm2native -\> Native
23:39:56FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a bullet proof chain
23:40:00FromDiscord<jmgomez> xDD
23:40:06FromDiscord<jmgomez> go a debug it
23:40:27FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean `echo` works and if you need more than echo your code is probably more complex than i write, so sod off
23:41:45FromDiscord<ericdraven> works on beef's machine
23:42:33FromDiscord<ericdraven> nim finish.exe made me install mingw 😱 wonder where that went
23:42:36FromDiscord<Nanjizal> well there is a go to haxe repo https://github.com/go2hx/go2hx
23:42:52FromDiscord<⃟⃟> OPEN SOURCE SUCKS
23:42:56FromDiscord<⃟⃟> proof: suckless
23:42:57FromDiscord<Nanjizal> and possibly a haxe to go one less advanced
23:43:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> suckless is proof that it doesnt suck
23:43:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It is code that lacks sucking
23:43:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Why do we keep this diamond troll around
23:43:34FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> They don't even have charm like dis
23:43:58FromDiscord<⃟⃟> suckless terminal cant even scroll without a patch/recompile
23:44:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You dont need your backbuffer if you did it'd be the front buffer
23:44:42FromDiscord<⃟⃟> what
23:45:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I out inaned the inane pro, send help
23:45:11FromDiscord<jmgomez> beef, I know you like scans on strutils, is this the correct signature for skip? `proc skipConst(input: string; start: int; seps: set[char]): int ` ?
23:45:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Skip what?
23:45:42FromDiscord<ericdraven> wezterm ❤️
23:46:01FromDiscord<ericdraven> I guess it's not suckless, but I don't think it sucks 🙂
23:46:52FromDiscord<jmgomez> the pattern fn, i.e `$[skipConst]` over `$` / `$` not sure if there is more than one signature or not
23:47:14FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Oh you mean is that a proper signature for a custom matcher
23:47:34FromDiscord<jmgomez> (edit) "`$`" => "`$+`"
23:47:36FromDiscord<jmgomez> yes
23:47:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://nim-lang.org/docs/strscans.html#user-definable-matchers indicates yes
23:48:10FromDiscord<jmgomez> Yeah, the part Im asking about is what this refers to: ` # Note: The parameters and return value must match to what ``scanf`` requires`
23:48:27FromDiscord<jmgomez> It suggest that the signature may vary?
23:48:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It can vary if you look at the second example
23:48:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> an `n: int` was added
23:49:28FromDiscord<jmgomez> lol didnt see that second example, time to go to bed
23:50:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> it For a matcher it needs to be `(string, valueType, int, ...): int` for a matcher it needs to be `string, int, ....`
23:51:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Whoops
23:51:15FromDiscord<jmgomez> In reply to @Elegantbeef "an `n: int` was": although that's referring to something else, to pass a parameter rather than to vary the match
23:51:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> We'll say `${}` is a binder, and `$[]` a matcher
23:51:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> binder needs `string, valueType, int, ...): int` matcher needs the other
23:51:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea same thing though
23:52:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> you can provide parameters after the int and pass it
23:52:22FromDiscord<jmgomez> ok, I just though that the macro may be able to detect based on the next token the type what you were looking form and adapt the signature base on it
23:52:23FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The macro turns the call into a `proc(string, var value, int, yourArgs)`
23:52:47FromDiscord<jmgomez> (edit) "form" => "for"
23:54:36FromDiscord<jmgomez> yeah, I was referring to the comment being confusing as hell
23:55:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well learn to use it then document it better if need be 😛
23:56:52FromDiscord<jmgomez> maybe someday if I ever manage to finish this vfunc thing
23:56:57FromDiscord<jmgomez> right mindset though 😛
23:58:48FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @Nanjizal "well there is a": Could always create a rfc for a Haxe backend for the Nim compiler