<< 06-05-2023 >>
00:00:08FromDiscord<jmgomez> Better yet, a rfc for a pluging system that allows to hooks backends into the compiler
00:00:40FromDiscord<jmgomez> (edit) "pluging" => "plugin"
00:01:40FromDiscord<jmgomez> haxe interop may also be interesting if they have already working bindings for C stuff too
00:01:58FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Shit that's my plan for my hypothetical language
00:02:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Use WASM to implement all backends
00:25:04FromDiscord<Gumbercules> https://github.com/Kode/Kinc
00:25:25FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @jmgomez "Better yet, a rfc": In case you weren't aware of this project ^
00:26:03FromDiscord<Gumbercules> This is what that blender armory engine depends on
00:26:26FromDiscord<Gumbercules> And maybe heaps? I have no idea on that one
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00:36:08FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I believe it's similar to bgfx, diligent engine, sokol, etc...
01:47:50FromDiscord<Patitotective> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4viD
01:58:58FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Use an object variant
02:00:12FromDiscord<Gumbercules> I don't really understand fully what you are trying to do
02:00:45FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Oh, assign a default I see
02:01:23FromDiscord<Gumbercules> You're trying to assign a typedesc not an instance of that type
02:02:13FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Try adding parentheses at the end of the default value assignment
02:10:02FromDiscord<Patitotective> let me try it, thanks
02:15:26FromDiscord<PunchCake> Cniles have invaded
02:16:41FromDiscord<huantian> What’s that
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05:05:31amaanHello
05:06:01amaanAny idea when is 2.0 stable releasing?
05:34:19FromDiscord<emanresu3> I thought it was gonna be last year lol↵(<@709044657232936960_amaan=5b=49=52=43=5d>)
05:39:33amaanthought so, been listening and following closely, but patience isn't a good friend.
05:48:23FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @amaan "Any idea when is": Yesterday it was said that is going to be released around may, more specifically when there are no showstopper bugs around
05:48:33FromDiscord<haxscramper> I asked about it in the #internals and that was the answer I got
05:48:50FromDiscord<haxscramper> It is not a set deadline of course
05:56:42amaanI don't get one thing about nim
05:57:07amaanIt is very very fast and easy and has many unique features that make it the perfect language
05:57:11amaanat least for me
05:57:30amaanthen howcome it never really took off in the market? Why not even a little?
05:59:39FromDiscord<emanresu3> people were discussing this earlier, mainly they say no coorporate backing, lack of leadership and no one cares to fix tooling
06:00:22FromDiscord<emanresu3> still I think nim is extremely underrated
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06:33:09FromDiscord<haxscramper> I'm hearing about mojo for the last week, and from their site it literally looks like nim reskin
06:33:33FromDiscord<haxscramper> But they got a huge amount of hype and does not seem to have anything to show
06:33:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It even worse than a Nim reskin
06:33:46FromDiscord<haxscramper> Plus there are sketchy PR practices on the front site
06:33:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a Rust reskin 😛
06:34:02FromDiscord<haxscramper> 7x speed for C++ ... oh, we only tested mandelbrot, right
06:34:34FromDiscord<haxscramper> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104295121144516658/image.png
06:34:39FromDiscord<haxscramper> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104295141121994843/1vidur-1.png
06:35:17FromDiscord<bitnom> I kept saying in the live-streams "Sounds like Nim"
06:35:50FromDiscord<haxscramper> https://chrisvoncsefalvay.com/2021/03/07/julia-a-post-mortem/?amp=1 the article is about julia, but the "lets replace python with XXX lang" vibe is essentially the same
06:35:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> As I will continue saying, it's quite funny in many regards cause it's like a Rust, but worse
06:36:20FromDiscord<haxscramper> There are many languages that are like good languages but worse
06:36:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> They want move semantics in the static typed code, but then also have `def` for dynamically typed code. Whilst forcing users to declare hooks and use `^` to move memory
06:37:15FromDiscord<haxscramper> I mean if you look closely enough it is literally every fancy language out there that is bad
06:37:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> All with nice borrow checking semantics
06:37:59FromDiscord<haxscramper> Like, what is their package management game? "Oh, we will strap on something later"
06:38:17FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Cause what Python programmers needed was explicit move semantics and borrow checking to make their code faster
06:38:18FromDiscord<haxscramper> Ctrl+F package -> 0, Cltr+F modul -> 3 results, 2 of which is "modular AI"
06:38:20FromDiscord<bitnom> lol nobody is gonna use it then
06:38:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's really odd they mention Nim, but do not copy the best part about it's move semantics, they're not in the way
06:39:30FromDiscord<haxscramper> they have it in extended docs, sorry↵↵> There are a number of features that are missing that are important to round out the language fully, but which don’t depend strongly on other features. These include things like: [...] Improved package management support.
06:39:43FromDiscord<haxscramper> In reply to @Elegantbeef "It's really odd they": They mention it?
06:39:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> yea
06:40:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I think it was mentioned somewhere
06:40:49FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> > We also benefit from tremendous work on other languages (e.g. Clang, Rust, Swift, Julia, Zig, Nim, etc), and leverage the MLIR compiler ecosystem
06:41:21FromDiscord<huantian> In reply to @Elegantbeef "It's really odd they": The main issue is that do Nim move semantics actually work yet
06:41:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes
06:41:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Orc/Arc do work barring implementation bugs
06:41:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Regardless if the implementation works the plan is sound
06:42:13FromDiscord<huantian> True
06:42:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Implicit copies when you cannot move, do not force the programmer to implement hooks, allow cycles using a cycle breaker
06:42:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> That's all sound and creates a very low barrier to entry in programming
06:43:25FromDiscord<bitnom> on that note, was just checking in on arraymancer and nimtorch. no movement in forever
06:43:26FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Forcing the programmer to understand move semantics and to use `^` to move memory into `owned` arguments is inane
06:43:35FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Especially since it's aimed a fucking python programmers
06:44:19FromDiscord<haxscramper> I think mratsim either left or busy with status or left
06:44:21FromDiscord<huantian> We still need some more infra + docs, I’d say, to allow newer folks to maybe more easily see that they could accidentally see they did an unnecessary copy
06:46:09FromDiscord<emanresu3> mojo's syntax is weird
06:46:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean we can disable `=copy` we can hint on `Performance`, ...
06:46:36FromDiscord<Rika> In reply to @haxscramper "I think mratsim either": I believe he is just busy
06:47:26FromDiscord<emanresu3> one thing that mojo does have over nim is notebook support
06:47:32FromDiscord<bitnom> guys, we need this on the nim docs site\: https://supabase.com/docs↵click the search at the top and then "Ask Supabase AI"
06:47:40FromDiscord<emanresu3> that's already a better repl than inim
06:48:05FromDiscord<bitnom> it's not hard to do. just get a cheap qdrant cluster for neural search to augment chatgpt api
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06:49:24FromDiscord<bitnom> might help bring more ppl in. I know it would have been great when I was learning nim
06:57:01amaanI also heard about mojo, sounds like a "going to fail" project to me. It really is the worst combination of things I have had to see. They say that AI would be eaiser to work with mojo. But really, most important parts of AI has already been written in languages like C/C++, why would someone care to reprogram all that in mojo (not to mention the uncertainity of performance equality to c++)
06:57:55amaanPython is only used for basic scripting, ie defining models of AI. It has near native training performance with how everything performant is written in C++.
06:58:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The idea is you can just paste your python in and speed up that code, whilst writing slow code in a static setting, no clue how close to the mark that is
06:58:46amaanJudging by how it is closed beta, I can guarentee you that a lot of their posted examples are probabbly handpicked.
07:00:19amaanlook, I still believe it is going to be a memory hog
07:00:49FromDiscord<haxscramper> bUtTheir cEo CreAtEd Swift
07:01:02amaanand llvm too
07:01:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I think if you use only mojo it'll likely be fine since it's manually managed memory
07:01:13FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Hey he also created LLVM!
07:01:43amaanYeah, not every project is deemed to be sucessful. Maybe, I just really hate it thatmuch
07:02:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I'm not going to speak to how successful it'll be, I just think it's design misses it's purpose
07:02:53FromDiscord<emanresu3> will mojo even compile to binaries?
07:03:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yea
07:03:05FromDiscord<emanresu3> if not, nim is infinitely superior
07:03:06FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a system language
07:03:40FromDiscord<emanresu3> ok, but will it also be interpretable like python or nimscript?
07:04:27FromDiscord<emanresu3> well dumb question, if it's running in jupyter notebooks it probably is
07:04:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nope
07:05:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I mean yes, but no clue if it has an API for it
07:05:10amaanWhat do u all think about nimscript? I find it annoying to know that their is not an API for using nimscript in our code. For example to create developer toolings.
07:05:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://github.com/beef331/nimscripter That's about how I feel about it
07:05:48amaanlike `nimscript.run("blah blah blah")`
07:06:32FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vjk
07:06:43FromDiscord<emanresu3> I once tried it, but couldn't make it work, maybe I'll give it another shot
07:06:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The Nim VM is an API
07:06:56FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You didnt make an issue so... who's fault is that?
07:07:03amaannice, last time I checked it, It didn't had the best of documentation
07:07:17amaannow it seems to have plenty
07:07:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It still doesnt have much documentation cause it's quite a thing to document, but I try 😄
07:08:18FromDiscord<emanresu3> I wasn't using choosenim at the time and had other issues then, that's why I'll try it again
07:08:40FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Well if you have issues hit the issue button and document it, so problems can be resolved
07:09:40amaandoes it bundle the vm inside the resulting executable?
07:09:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Of course
07:10:16amaanok, imma go and create some dev tooling right away
07:10:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Gabbhack even has https://nimplay.gabb.eu.org/ which uses it in WASM
07:10:37FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> No clue what dev tooling you want to do
07:10:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There is the macroexport example
07:11:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://streamable.com/c6farb kinda a dev tool
07:11:59FromDiscord<emanresu3> alright, I think I'll finally get a github account again
07:12:11amaanwdym?
07:12:28amaanall these years, you weren't on github?
07:12:47FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a platform owned by MS, do you blame them?!
07:13:04amaanumm, ok, afterall I am a kid
07:14:37amaanso, was it gitlab all these years?
07:15:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> There are countless repo hosts
07:16:03amaan:|
07:16:11FromDiscord<emanresu3> I did have a github, then delete it, then gitlab, then codeberg and my private cgit server↵(<@709044657232936960_amaan=5b=49=52=43=5d>)
07:20:20amaanMy nim skills are getting rusty (no pun intended). Any new popular libraries on ur mind? Maybe some AI stuff, game engines, etc..
07:20:56FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Heh game engines in Nim
07:20:57FromDiscord<emanresu3> for how unintuitive mojo is, if it ever replaces python I think it's a good change, but nim is just superior syntax.
07:21:48FromDiscord<emanresu3> I wanted to port the gettext C library to nim but failed miserably↵(<@709044657232936960_amaan=5b=49=52=43=5d>)
07:22:21FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I think Nico is probably the closest to a pure Nim game engine that is usable
07:22:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I do have a package for my game project but it's not very documented since it's made just for me really
07:24:50amaani get it, I tried to port pygame to nim but hugely underestimated pygame's size.
07:25:14FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nico is quite nice
07:25:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Limited to cpu rendered and 256 colours, but still quite a good tool
07:27:13amaanI like the retro vibe to it
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09:43:41NimEventerNew thread by mildred: How to cast or pass a {.closure.} as a callback to a C API with userdata pointer?, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10173
10:52:00NimEventerNew thread by choltreppe: Bug (?) with nested templates in generic proc, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10174
11:16:08NimEventerNew thread by RonH20: Question from a complete Newbie, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10175
11:45:26NimEventerNew thread by xTrayambak: How can I create a process completely detached of my process?, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10176
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14:27:14FromDiscord<Bung> `Current Nim version does not match the one NimLSP is built against 1.9.3 != 1.6.12` where this message coming from ? when I open a nim project with my vscode-nim-lsp extension
14:29:24PMunchIt comes from NimLSP
14:29:54PMunchSince NimLSP includes nimsuggest it has to be built against the version you intend to use it with
14:30:19PMunchIt has a small check to make sure that the version currently in use matches the version NimLSP was built from
14:35:13FromDiscord<Bung> ah, I see , guess I need reinstall it after switch nim version
14:35:25PMunchIndeed
14:38:48PMunchI was hoping to get it to rebuild automatically for those who uses choosenim: https://github.com/dom96/choosenim/issues/146
14:43:47FromDiscord<Bung> yeah, that's a needed feature, hope dom96 can create an organization for managing his projects as I haven't seen him for a while
14:46:44PMunchHe retired from the community. We're working on moving his tools over to the organization so we can maintain them
14:48:24FromDiscord<Bung> so some of you guys have rights to merge PR?
14:55:17PMunchNot in his current repository
14:56:02FromDiscord<Bung> okay, could you send me the link
14:57:02PMunch"The" link?
14:57:04PMunchWhich link?
15:07:06FromDiscord<Bung> the organization
15:10:19FromDiscord<Bung> by the way, doesn't that error consider as a fatal error?
15:21:21FromDiscord<willyboar> In reply to @PMunch "He retired from the": I suggest to create a new org like nim-tools or even nim-community because main org has a lot to support. You can lead this effort.
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15:44:46FromDiscord<deech> In reply to @PMunch "He retired from the": Is it worth keeping any of this tooling around? The community is small enough that nimble and choosenim could be replaced with something better.
15:47:57FromDiscord<deech> FWIW I suspect language specific build systems and package managers are on their way out. Most orgs are investing in Guix/Nix/Bazel which is a better fit for heterogenous environments.
15:49:30FromDiscord<deech> (edit) "FWIW I suspect language specific build systems and package managers are on their way out. Most orgs are investing in Guix/Nix/Bazel which is a better fit for heterogenous ... environments." added "environments and furthermore maintainers of language specific tooling are struggling to integrate them with agnostic reproducible build"
15:50:02FromDiscord<haxscramper> I tried using nix recently
15:50:13FromDiscord<haxscramper> I spend three days trying to figure out whether this is something I can use or not
15:50:20FromDiscord<haxscramper> Still don't understand how to "properly" install package
15:50:38FromDiscord<haxscramper> So, with all due respect, let's aim for tooling that can work for IQ<120
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15:55:22FromDiscord<deech> Same, Nix usability sucks, Guix is slightly better but doesn't work on Macos and Windows support for both is basically non-existent. I don't know enough about Bazel to comment. Hopefully something better will come along in the meantime I think they are worth targeting because the days of single language projects is over. Nim's interop makes it attractive for bindings so even in your typical solo Nim project you're already dealing with at le
15:56:00FromDiscord<deech> (edit) "is" => "are"
15:56:31FromDiscord<haxscramper> Also, and this part is literally a broken record at this point, having static, easily readable package config is likely to help with integrating with guix anyway
15:56:46FromDiscord<haxscramper> nix/bazel/asdf etc.
16:02:30FromDiscord<deech> ;'/s.x
16:03:03FromDiscord<deech> (edit) ";'/s.x" => "~~;'/s.x~~↵sorry, cat"
16:05:47FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @deech "Is it worth keeping": I agree 💯 0
16:07:12FromDiscord<Gumbercules> It'd also be an opportunity to get rid of any coupling between Nim and Nimble since the latter has a tendency to hold up releasing updates for the former
16:07:52FromDiscord<gloopsies> I don't know where is the correct place to ask for help in here but I could really use some help with running opengl with nim
16:08:03FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Choosenim needs a better name and a better implementation/design as well
16:08:08FromDiscord<gloopsies> specifically with gtk4 and owlkettle
16:08:17FromDiscord<Gumbercules> In reply to @gloopsies "I don't know where": #gamedev is your best bet
16:08:21FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Oh
16:08:26FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Then #appdev
16:08:35FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Maybe a combo of the two
16:08:46FromDiscord<gloopsies> is it okay if I post in both?
16:08:51FromDiscord<Gumbercules> Of course
16:11:57FromDiscord<jmgomez> FYI @deech I remember you asked once about it, it's implemented https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/21648
16:12:10FromDiscord<jmgomez> At least something similar of what you asked for
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17:41:28FromDiscord<least antisemitic pole> did anyone else try using nim js (only for app logic) with svelte? does it work? am I crazy?
17:44:11FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @least antisemitic pole "did anyone else try": what is svelte, and what do ym app logic
17:45:34FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/AUa
17:45:42FromDiscord<gloopsies> Svelte is a js framework somewhat like React but way better
17:46:27FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @not logged in "what is svelte, and": https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte#readme
17:46:30FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @gloopsies "Svelte is a js": ah, well for nim js just use karax afaik
17:54:30FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @not logged in "Can someone please explain": i think i have encounterted this before but idk
17:56:13FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> async procs can’t have `var` parameters
17:56:44FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @michaelb.eth "async procs can’t have": then what am i supposed to do...↵My whole system depends on var params
17:58:10FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> can you use ref instead?
17:59:13FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=4vl5
18:01:43NimEventerNew Nimble package! sunk - Few async tools for nim (then, catch, finally, and more), see https://github.com/archnim/sunk
18:02:40FromDiscord<huantian> In reply to @haxscramper "Still don't understand how": As a nix user, Nix learning curve sucks↵My answer to your question is that you should never install an application, other than NixOS system wide with `environment.systemPackages` ↵In other situations it’s less of installing a package but adding it to an environment lol
18:03:31FromDiscord<huantian> But still I agree Nix difficulty level tooling isn’t what we want at all
18:04:09FromDiscord<haxscramper> that's literally the problem https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1104468661181354035/2023-05-06_22-03.png
18:04:25FromDiscord<haxscramper> "you should not" -- yes, after someone tells you you know
18:04:29FromDiscord<haxscramper> but before that?
18:04:57FromDiscord<haxscramper> "hi, I'm a dumb arch user, can I please get a binary installed? Thank you. Oh, `nix-env`, right, well that's what docs says, must be legit"
18:05:02FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @michaelb.eth "can you use ref": does ref replace var?
18:05:20FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> researching…
18:05:58FromDiscord<huantian> In reply to @haxscramper ""hi, I'm a dumb": Yeah I feel that, there’s literally a site made to tell people to not use it for installing packages
18:06:15FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @not logged in "does ref replace var?": Here’s an old thread, but I think the problem is still the same today: ttps://forum.nim-lang.org/t/1623#10148
18:07:38FromDiscord<huantian> Nix definitely has a documentation problem, some of which is outdated, some of which is just bad, some of which just doesn’t exist↵However, it seems like things are being worked on, more people are getting involved in documentation specifically, hopefully that helps
18:08:32FromDiscord<haxscramper> I tried to approach it like I do approach conan/pyenv, this seemed like a more 'correct' solution, but I can't say I got anything out of it
18:08:56FromDiscord<haxscramper> And yeah, the task was to get clang 16 working
18:09:01FromDiscord<haxscramper> So this might be a high bar
18:09:19FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @michaelb.eth "Here’s an old thread,": so you can't use ref and need to use ptr?
18:09:24FromDiscord<haxscramper> From what I understand at least
18:10:08FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @not logged in "so you can't use": Well there he referred to C# ref being equivalent to Nim’s var
18:12:12FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @not logged in "so you can't use": This issue might be relevant to your use case, but I’m not 100% sure: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/14429
18:15:22FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @michaelb.eth "This issue might be": so i just remove the var part? let me try
18:16:36FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> it does not work
18:21:32FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @not logged in "it does not work": Same error message or different?
18:22:05FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @michaelb.eth "Same error message or": the expected x is immutable error
18:31:04NimEventerNew thread by archnim: Few async tools for nim, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10178
18:38:20FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> sent a long message, see http://ix.io/4vlc
18:38:43FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> (edit) "http://ix.io/4vlc" => "http://ix.io/4vld"
19:02:46FromDiscord<Nlits (Ping on reply)> In reply to @michaelb.eth "long discussions that touch": i will try ptr
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