<< 06-09-2019 >>
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00:37:06FromGitter<awr1> lol
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01:23:32leorizedisruptek: nice!
01:26:45leorizeregarding not seeing any exit log is probably due to the fact that I now omit the 'exitcode 0' message
01:27:06leorizenimsuggest can crash without showing any error code
01:27:59leorizeshashlick: \o/ it does work on windows, but apparantly neovim is too unstable there atm
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02:06:22shashlicki'm on your main branch, what's in refactoring
02:13:25leorizea rewrite of several things in the plugin
02:13:29leorizeit also fixes some bug
02:18:07leorizeif possible, please switch to it and test if every features is still working correctly :)
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02:19:21shashlicki have, will keep you posted
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03:02:56FromGitter<awr1> nim permits compilation when importing multiple modules with conflicting symbols when you fully qualify the ambiguous identifiers at their point of usage, right?
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03:03:11FromGitter<awr1> or are you forced to just use `from xyz import nil`
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03:17:42FromGitter<mratsim> you can fully qualify them
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05:41:56FromGitter<gogolxdong> https://www.oschina.net/news/109651/the-chinese-official-site-of-nim
05:42:56FromGitter<gogolxdong> Will we link https://nim-lang-cn.org/ to https://nim-lang.org/?
05:43:58FromGitter<gogolxdong> Some people says they have saw five others chinese nim official site.
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05:57:50AraqI thought there already is a connection to nim-lang.org
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06:14:28FromGitter<gogolxdong> oschina is the biggest open source community in China, this message has been indexed on the first page, it brings 20+ people to our QQ group in two hours.
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06:18:49FromGitter<XMatrixXiang> @gogolxdong What is the QQ group number?
06:20:47FromGitter<gogolxdong> I'm writting the first blog about web full stack developpment in Nim, without knowing the exact theory of Karax and the relationship among Vue.js and React, I will let you review first.
06:21:09FromGitter<gogolxdong> 469329878
06:21:13FromGitter<gogolxdong> @XMatrixXiang
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07:37:51livcdcool!
07:47:59FromDiscord_<aolko> alrighty
07:48:03FromDiscord_<aolko> hi there
07:48:25FromDiscord_<aolko> who knows anything about writing interpreters here?
07:48:30FromDiscord_<aolko> (in nim)
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07:51:03PMunchWhat kind of interpreter?
07:51:32FromDiscord_<aolko> interpreter that can be mounted on apache/nginx
07:51:54FromDiscord_<aolko> yes, for a server side scripting language
07:52:26PMunchNot entirely sure what you mean
07:53:28FromDiscord_<aolko> like hack
07:53:37FromDiscord_<aolko> (the language)
07:56:12PMunchSo you want to write your own language?
07:56:14FromDiscord_<aolko> but instead of HHVM it's apache or nginx
07:56:25FromDiscord_<aolko> yes, i do want to write my own language
07:56:51PMunchWait, Apache and Nginx aren't execution engines though
07:57:02PMunchOr I guess Apache does PHP
07:57:27FromDiscord_<aolko> it's similar to php but incompatible
07:57:31FromDiscord_<aolko> yes, i've spent quite a while researching that
07:57:31FromDiscord_<aolko> no, none of the existing solutions work
07:57:31FromDiscord_<aolko> no, google doesn't help either
07:58:48PMunchSo you want to write an interpreter, anything in particular you're stuck on
07:58:48FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Can checks be disabled for a specific block of code via a pragma?
07:58:53FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Specifically range checks.
07:58:58PMunchkayabeNerve I think so
07:59:19FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I think so too except the system docs don't mention checks except for their existence and RangeError
07:59:43FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I have some code which converts an int to a char and I'm being yelled at since -58 isn't a valid char.
07:59:54FromDiscord_<aolko> yes, the whole thing, writing an interpreter, given that my grammar is not based on any known notation and therefore unique
07:59:59FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I generally have all checks disable, except I want them on for debugging.
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08:00:19FromDiscord_<aolko> and it goes, top to bottom, i.e. declare first, use later
08:00:34FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Found a weird bug where my array object (not a ref) gets set to 0.
08:00:47PMunchkayabaNerve, ah yeah, that change has broken some of my code as well..
08:01:11PMunchWhat you can do is convert it to a int8 and then cast that to a char
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08:02:09FromDiscord_<aolko> PMunch
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08:05:09PMunchkayabaNerve, it appears that just casting is what you should do: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/5903
08:05:24PMunchaolko, well you would need to implement a parser of course
08:05:32PMunchThere are many libraries out there for Nim to do this
08:05:37FromDiscord_<aolko> no deps
08:05:45FromDiscord_<aolko> that's one of the conditions
08:05:45PMunchWell, then you have to write your own
08:06:06FromDiscord_<aolko> gee whiz, i wonder ____how____ to do that?
08:06:24FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Sounds like I need to use the long form cast?
08:06:31FromDiscord_<aolko> (heavy emphasis on how, in case you didn't notice)
08:06:36FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Yep
08:06:37PMunchAnd of course some kind of VM that actually keeps the state and stuff for your program
08:06:42FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I found my problem
08:06:51FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Invalid memory access since I'm deleting elems as I iterate.
08:06:54FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Thanks PMunch
08:06:59PMunchAh, so you actually want to know how to write a parser aolko?
08:07:08PMunchkayabaNerve, no problem :)
08:07:23PMunchAnd yeah, that's never a good time :P
08:07:28FromDiscord_<aolko> Interpreter assumes all the parts within
08:07:33FromDiscord_<aolko> including the parser
08:07:53PMunchWell if you write it in Nim it will all get compiled into one binary anyways
08:08:03PMunchSo the dependencies are only for compile-time
08:08:09FromDiscord_<aolko> still
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08:08:30PMunchAssuming you're not using a library that's just a wrapper for some dynamic library
08:08:34FromDiscord_<aolko> and it might be two parsers since unique grammar
08:08:57PMunchWell every grammar is unique
08:09:08FromDiscord_<aolko> no, they use notations
08:09:18FromDiscord_<aolko> mine doesn't....well it has it's own
08:11:08FromDiscord_<aolko> it goes like https://hastebin.com/ogoqajiqov.coffeescript
08:11:20PMunchI'm looking for an article about writing parsers in Nim, not entirely sure if that ever got published though..
08:11:25FromDiscord_<aolko> `[% %]` denotes a simplified regex
08:11:51FromDiscord_<aolko> please don't shove me articles, there won't be any that'd fit, explain by yourself
08:15:56PMunchWell I'm not going to sit here typing out a full article if I can find the one I'm thinking about. It essentially walks you through how to write parsers in Nim, which is exactly what you're looking for
08:16:33PMunchAh, so you want to create a parser generator?
08:16:50PMunchLooking at your grammar snippet. Or was that just for illustration?
08:18:12FromDiscord_<aolko> if a parser generator is an option - maybe, so far i want a working interpreter + apache/nginx bind + stdlib
08:18:21PMunchWriting parsers can be a bit daunting, I would know, I've written a couple. But as long as your grammar is fairly straight-forward, then it should be pretty easy once you get the hang of it
08:18:40FromDiscord_<aolko> mine is straightforward, as you can see
08:18:49PMunchStill not entirely sure how you think this should hook into Apache/Nginx though
08:18:54FromDiscord_<aolko> it's inspired by treetop and css
08:19:01PMunchYeah if that's the entire thing it should be fairly simple
08:19:09FromDiscord_<aolko> like wsgi/fcgi/php-npm?
08:19:40FromDiscord_<aolko> that's another condition - entire source should be simple for every average Joe to tweak and build
08:20:07FromDiscord_<aolko> like wsgi/fcgi/php-fpm?
08:20:29PMunchHuh, never heard of those before. But it seems like it should be doable
08:20:53FromDiscord_<aolko> wsgi/fcgi - python/ruby
08:21:11PMunchWell how simple your source ends up being is a factor of many things
08:21:20FromDiscord_<aolko> it's a goal
08:21:26PMunchAnd a good one
08:21:32PMunchClean source code is always nice
08:21:55FromDiscord_<aolko> if it can't be simple that we should make sure that we have a damn simple tools to fiddle with it then
08:23:01PMunchWhat I did when I rewrote the TOML parser in Nim was to create a dot/graphviz file that coded the grammar, makes it a bit easier to see the logic of the code.
08:23:47FromDiscord_<aolko> and tools would mean gui-based editors
08:23:58FromDiscord_<aolko> like GOLD or similar
08:24:21FromDiscord_<aolko> http://www.goldparser.org/builder/screenshots.htm
08:25:04PMunchWell if you make a DSL then it should be fairly easy to edit and change
08:25:38FromDiscord_<aolko> no dsls so far, at least for now
08:26:10PMunchWell as I wrote about in a recent article they can really help with read and maintainability
08:26:37PMunchThat was actually about a small toy language I was writing, so the entire thing might be interesting for you: https://peterme.net/metaprogramming-and-read-and-maintainability-in-nim.html
08:27:18FromDiscord_<aolko> please, no articles, just step-by-step instructions
08:27:46PMunchI was tired of writing parsers at that point though, so it is essentially just split the string on spaces and run each token as a command or a number :P
08:28:08PMunchWell, I don't have time to sit around and hold your hand while you do this, so you will have to do some research of your own at some point
08:28:19FromDiscord_<aolko> and if PEG can skip tokenization/AST i guess my grammar can too
08:28:48FromDiscord_<aolko> i've told you, i did a research and i've fed up at this point
08:29:01PMunchThis module from the stdlib might be helpful to you as well: https://nim-lang.org/docs/parseutils.html
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08:29:18FromDiscord_<aolko> that's a dependency
08:29:26PMunchIt's in the Nim stdlib
08:29:32PMunchSo if you have Nim you have that module
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08:29:55PMunchYou're going to have a bad time if you want to re-implement the stdlib as well..
08:30:17PMunchYour project already seem to have a large scope, no reason to make it vastly larger.
08:31:00FromDiscord_<aolko> and yes, i'm one man, not a powerhouse of several developers 😛
08:31:47FromDiscord_<aolko> and by simples source i mean not only clean code, but __simple__ sources
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08:32:00FromDiscord_<aolko> no simpler than a bunch of functions
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08:43:26Araq__simple__ is not an objective criterion and usually just a synonsym with "familiar"
08:43:59Araqthere is nothing "simple" about functions and the involved parameter passing semantics when you start programming
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08:50:28FromDiscord_<me2beats> I would say the simple is that it is closer to human thinking. for example, assembler is not how a person thinks imo.
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08:54:16Araqfor many people assembler is simple ;-)
08:54:35Araqthere is of course a difference between "simple to implement", "simple to teach", and "simple to use"
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08:59:24FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I imagine how long and how hard it was using assembler to make all those amazing games on SNES and older. I don't think i ever wanna try that out D:
09:00:30Araqdevelopment time back then: about 1 year
09:00:43Araqdevelopment time for a game now: N years
09:00:51FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> How big were the teams though ?
09:01:02Araqsmaller than nowadays
09:01:54FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I really loved Zelda a Link To The Past, i wish they made more like it.
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09:09:40FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Well nowadays games all want to be 3D(atleast company ones) and 3D is a pain... an indie team for a 2D game ? 1 programmer, 1 graphics artist, 1 music/sound artist, 1 desginer, 4 people can do it, or even 3, but 3D ? oh man it nearly doubles instantly.
09:17:20FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I hope we can make an engine in Nim like Godot Engine one day, that would be great.
09:23:30FromDiscord_<aolko> simple as in simple and intuitive
09:23:44FromDiscord_<aolko> like ruby/python/lua/apple products
09:23:52FromDiscord_<aolko> brb
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09:28:19FromGitter<zacharycarter> Kiloneie: Just use Godot :P
09:29:13FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I will once i will get back to game dev, but i'd rather use Nim with it, ALTHOUGH Nim is so damn similar to Godot especially if you use it's 3.1 feature of type casting(and not dynamic typing)
09:29:21FromDiscord_<aolko> so yeah
09:29:27FromGitter<zacharycarter> use GDNative
09:29:53FromGitter<zacharycarter> I don't think Nim is very similar to GDScript - maybe in terms of syntax but that would be about it
09:29:58FromDiscord_<aolko> also simple as in even 4-7yo kid can get that
09:30:10FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Godot ? it can't
09:30:21FromGitter<zacharycarter> can't what?\
09:30:22Araq7yo kids will never understand parsers
09:30:34Araqhow do I know? I have one.
09:30:35FromDiscord_<aolko> the goal is
09:30:36FromGitter<zacharycarter> Are there 7 year olds that know Ruby? I doubt it
09:30:38FromDiscord_<aolko> wuth this one
09:30:45FromDiscord_<aolko> with this one that is*
09:30:58FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> i started with Game Maker when i was 11 and it was damn hard back then, now it's obsolete, Godot destroys it, it's language is too limiting
09:31:13FromDiscord_<aolko> i ain't talking about godot
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09:31:32FromGitter<zacharycarter> well the only real similarities Godot shares with Game Maker is that you can make games with them
09:31:43FromDiscord_<aolko> construct classic owns godot any day
09:31:52FromDiscord_<aolko> because of it's simple event system
09:32:04FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Well GM is for pure beginners, Godot requires more, but it can do more, faster
09:32:05FromGitter<zacharycarter> and unity / UE4 own all of these engines
09:32:12FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> i don't like Construct at all
09:32:18FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> i tried it and..... uhhh....
09:32:25FromGitter<zacharycarter> but you can already use Nim with Godot via GDNative
09:32:40FromDiscord_<aolko> godot people are too pretentious with their "Oh We AiM aT pRoFeSsIoNaLs"
09:32:43FromGitter<zacharycarter> but you can probably do the same things you do with Godot with SDL2 + Nim
09:32:47FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> i know that, will try it one day, got too much stuff to do right now with Nim
09:34:05FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Should be able to pump out 2-3 videos for Nim this weekend(no promises), i am trying to make a really good introduction and tutorial for non beginners to use Nim.
09:35:05FromDiscord_<aolko> so,Araq
09:35:21FromDiscord_<aolko> do you really know the thing or just chiming in?
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09:38:00Araqdo I really know how to write parsers? yes, I think I do.
09:38:14FromGitter<zacharycarter> aolko: Araq is the creator of Nim just FYI
09:39:18FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Now i know, i thought someone might be the author in here xD... Praise to you.
09:39:55narimiran@zacharycarter argh, you ruined potentially very interesting conversation! :D
09:40:12Araqaolko, I think I remember you, you occasionally show up here and ask about "__simple__" parsers and nothing is ever simple enough for you.
09:40:20FromGitter<zacharycarter> well - I figured I'd save us all some grief :P I still don't even know what aolko is trying to ask / get at
09:40:22Zevvnpeg! :)
09:40:57Zevv(shut the *** up zevv!)
09:41:30FromDiscord_<aolko> well, big whoop, someone who actually can remember past events
09:41:34Araqand well, if nothing is ever simple enough for you, maybe it's you and not the code.
09:42:01FromDiscord_<aolko> maybe stop blabbing and start explaining, how about that?
09:42:14Araqhow about you buy a book and read it?
09:42:21Araqwe gave you plenty of suggestions back then
09:42:42narimiranok, @zacharycarter didn't kill *all* of the fun :)
09:42:44FromDiscord_<aolko> how about you cut it out, i've explained why i won't do that beforehand
09:43:05Zevvooooooh
09:43:22narimiran"yo' mamma is so fat....."
09:43:51FromDiscord_<aolko> more like fat32
09:44:09FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Guys, chill out.
09:44:24FromDiscord_<aolko> i am chill, sick and tired and chill
09:45:46FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> You gotta try to do things more on your own than asking other to explain, do them for you, it's the best way to learn, regardless of how long it takes. I once took a month to fix a bug that was really simple, did i lose my shit ? Yes, but i did learn.
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09:46:54Araqaolko: read this https://github.com/stravant/LuaMinify/blob/master/ParseLua.lua it's written in Lua and uses functions
09:46:59FromDiscord_<aolko> okay, how do you expect a person to do something when the question of how wasn't even answered, because nobody bothered to even sratch their heads in order to answer it
09:47:23FromDiscord_<aolko> note for big brain people: i am not writing in lua
09:47:30FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Google, a lot ?
09:47:35FromDiscord_<aolko> nor my language is based on lua
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09:48:18FromDiscord_<aolko> @Kiloneie do that for 6 months and i'll look at you in the eye with a smirk and a google/article/blabber link
09:48:43FromDiscord_<aolko> and i'll see how you'll start losing your shit
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09:50:05FromGitter<zacharycarter> aolko: what is your question even? You came in here saying you wanted to write an interpreter in Nim. People have already written interpreters in Nim
09:50:20FromGitter<zacharycarter> you said google couldn't answer your question... maybe you should spend some time actually thinking about what your question is
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09:50:42FromGitter<zacharycarter> because all you've done since you joined this chat is spewed a bunch of nonsense - and you can't expect us to answer nonsense questions
09:50:47Araqwe have answered the question multiple times already, enough of this
09:51:13FromDiscord_<aolko> you maybe think you did, but no one did in reality
09:51:42Araqmaybe #nim is not #Icannotwriteparserspleasewritemeanessay
09:52:01FromDiscord_<me2beats> Step by step
09:52:05Araqyou should create this channel and invite people to it
09:52:15narimiranbut surely is #weContinuallyFeedTrolls
09:52:22FromDiscord_<aolko> you should not try to manipulate people
09:52:56FromGitter<zacharycarter> b7 time
09:53:30PMunchAy Kiloneie, I also started using GameMaker around 10-11 yo
09:53:58PMunchActually how I started getting better at English as well, by trying to figure it out through the forums
09:55:08FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Yeh same, it was hard enough understanding what all that jargon english means, yet alone what the code does
09:55:22FromDiscord_<aolko> So, PMunch, that url above is how __not__ to write a parser 101 since it has hardcoded grammar
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09:57:28FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I did do a demo of a game i was making years ago, but it was too ambitious. When i returned to it a year or two ago, everything made sense, i did such mistakes it was a pain looking at my old code. Then i found Godot, and everything you can do in Game Maker, is much easier in Godot. (Game Maker also used to be slow as hell, that demo actually went under 30 fps with just a few particle effects running around on a 3K by 3K pixel map)
09:58:21FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Took me years of looking till i found Nim my perfect language, Pure Basic was close, that thing was dying though...
10:00:31PMunchKiloneie, yeah I remember looking at some of my old game code. Lot's of obvious mistakes :P
10:00:44PMunchBut you learn as long as you live right?
10:00:58Araqhttp://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/WirthPubl/CBEAll.pdf still worth reading for PMunch and others
10:01:34PMunchOh, interesting
10:03:57FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Yep, it was fun, i needed that, i got bored of games back then, i played Warcraft 3 for like a decade. Right now i want to make a living, do what i want to do, anything with Nim, Game Dev, playing games. So i am focusing right now on making Nim video tutorials(written also, buit i fcked my domain by trying out Wix premium -.- oops, too much work for starters anyways). I am doing this because i got like no views playing the game i got real
10:04:29FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> What games did you try to make ? Mine was supposed to be a multiplayer build a straship and battle game with inside of the ship micro managing.
10:05:24FromGitter<zacharycarter> not to be an ass - but I think off-topic would be a better place for this convo
10:06:22FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Yeah sorry, not many actually use that one though.
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10:06:50FromGitter<zacharycarter> No worries - but better to leave this one for convos focused on Nim
10:06:57clyybberzacharycarter: I'd say as long as it is not interfering with any on-topic discussion it's okay?
10:07:24FromGitter<zacharycarter> fine with me
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10:08:33FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I have a question, if i put up a video introducing Nim(i know i said something similar a few weeks ago, stuff came in between woops...) in the next few days, will you guys watch it and give your thoughts ? I really want to make it correct and GREAT, big views wiii...
10:08:57AraqI will
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10:09:31clyybberI will too
10:09:34FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Do you want to read the synopsis before hand ? I haven't finished it yet, but close.
10:10:16Araqyes
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10:11:47FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> https://justpaste.it/7kf11
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10:14:23Araqkiloneie: too generic
10:14:50Araqdon't just repeat what the website says, maybe make a video that shows how to install Nim
10:14:55FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Okay, how about the tutorial itself: https://justpaste.it/3kad3
10:15:10Araqthen a video how to handle command line arguments
10:15:26Araqthen a video that shows some os.nim features (iterate over directories etc)
10:15:37Araqthen a video about basic IO
10:16:37Araqand then about how to use Nim with Godot, or SDL2 or ...
10:16:57Araqdepending on your expertise and preferences
10:17:19FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I am seeing myself doing that sometime after teaching all the basics, objects and such
10:17:45FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> how about the tutorial i linked though ? Do you like that one more ? https://justpaste.it/3kad3
10:18:48Araqyes, indeed
10:22:33livcdi cant load it
10:22:34livcdweird
10:23:42FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> let me re paste it
10:24:42livcdit's good now
10:24:49livcdcloudflare showed that it's down
10:24:55FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> http://oneclickpaste.com/98121/
10:25:00FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> okay heres a ssecond one
10:25:06FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> just in case
10:37:45FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Araq: when you meant to generic, did you also mean explaining when it was made ?
10:37:45FromDiscord_<Kiloneie>
10:37:45FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I know i gotta get to the point of explaining exactly why one would want to use it, and yeah didn't nail that one yet., should be 0 references to the website, all of that should be in the EXTRA links in the description.
10:37:45FromDiscord_<Kiloneie>
10:37:48FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Should i compare it with C and Python or not ? Me and my friend both thought it was a good idea, since how popular those languages are, and how unknown Nim is.
10:42:55AraqKiloneie: compare it or not, the point is don't give a long talk about what is basically also covered by our index.html webpage
10:44:51FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Okay, i will try to dumb it down as much as i can.
10:47:16FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I will take a look at some books, especially my copy of Game Maker's Apprentice and how IT appealed to me.
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10:52:06PMunchOh yeah, I remember when that book came out, pretty decent read
10:52:28PMunchI was making different kinds of games, but nothing that ever got finished..
10:53:05FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> The Companion one didn't ring a bell with me, that one was sub par.
10:59:39FromGitter<mratsim> I remember trying RPG maker when I was like 15
10:59:43euantorThanks for merging my PRs Araq :)
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11:01:21PMunchKiloneie, The Companion?
11:01:31PMunchmratsim, oh yeah RPG maker was fun
11:01:32Araqeuantor, ah if you're here
11:01:44Araqare your additions based on detect.nim's output?
11:01:54euantorI'm usually idling about, feel free to ping if/when needed
11:02:19euantordetect.nim doesn't work on OpenBSD unfortunately: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/12138
11:02:26euantorAnd I'm too dumb to figure out what the problem is
11:03:29euantorI have a bunch more OpenBSD issues too, see here for a paste of the errors from runCI: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/12105#issuecomment-528444310
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11:51:14livcdserious question: Is "Nim" selling commercial support ?
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11:54:18livcdAh I see
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12:32:04Araqlivcd, yes
12:43:22Zevvhttp://ix.io/1Uqp because everybody loves boxes and arrows \o/
12:44:02PMunchOoh fancy
12:44:22Zevvbecause ascii, right?
12:44:42PMunchYeah I don't think I've even seen a diagram like that in ASCII before
12:45:09Zevvnot sure if it is actually more readable than the source, but still, fun to make :)
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12:45:57PMunchI really like that kind of diagram, so I'm all for it :)
12:46:01PMunchIs it auto-generated?
12:46:23Zevvof course, that's the idea
12:47:57FromGitter<kaushalmodi> Zevv: I don't understand that diagram, but +
12:48:04Zevvhaha
12:48:05FromGitter<kaushalmodi> .. +1 for ascii diagrams! :D
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12:49:23FromGitter<kaushalmodi> I like non-gui diagram generators.. whether the final outcome is ascii or not, the diagram source should be ascii
12:49:28FromGitter<kaushalmodi> so PlantUML rocks
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12:50:17Zevvif only it did railroad diagrams
12:50:53FromGitter<kaushalmodi> TIL this ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax_diagram ) is a thing.. huh
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12:55:00PMunchYeah dot/graphviz doesn't do railroad diagrams either :(
12:55:06PMunchAt least not in any easy way..
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13:38:16disruptekunder which (if any, or all) scenarios are concepts so broken that i shouldn't use them?
13:41:24disruptekkaushalmodi: http://nomnoml.com/
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13:48:53Araqdisruptek: it's hard to answer for me
13:49:06AraqI do mind their design much moreso than the implementation bugs
13:49:27disruptekdo you not want to see them in code?
13:49:46disrupteki think the answer to that is as good an answer as i need. ;-)
13:50:14Araqit's fine to use them if you don't mind to rewrite the declarations eventually when we figured them out
13:50:38Araqtime to write my RCF I guess
13:50:50disrupteka related question is whether there is a not-very-painful way to do the same thing?
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13:51:31FromGitter<mratsim> They do work for the couple parts that I need
13:51:53disrupteki'm only asking because i've waited a long time to hear some real arguments on them but it seems few people talk about the real issues.
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13:55:08Araqwell let's start with the fact that
13:55:09Araqproc p(x: ConceptHere)
13:55:09Araqcan be written as
13:55:09Araqproc p[T](x: T)
13:55:10Araqto a good approximation, the T variant gets less type-checking
13:55:11Araqand might not be overloading-friendly
13:55:14Araqbut it allows you to write anything in p's body as generics are close to C++'s templates
13:56:06disruptekso far so good. ;-)
13:57:16Araqand IMO concepts should deal with the generic type system loopholes, they should be our ticket to type-checked generics
13:57:59Araqand in their current form they don't, so their complexity doesn't bring enough value
13:58:53disruptekah, that makes sense. so it's an impl issue.
13:59:04Araqno, it's a spec issue.
13:59:12Araqwe need a spec.
13:59:45disruptekoh, it's just too abstract a concept for the compiler to vet?
14:00:22livcddisruptek: whoa that's cool
14:01:15Araqno, Nim moved on. we don't follow the "principle of least surprise" anymore, it's a desaster for language design. We follow "write a spec, implement the spec, notice how they diverge"
14:01:56disruptekthen i will wait for the spec, thanks. :-)
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14:03:48disrupteklivcd: yeah, it's something i'd like to see in nim. maybe we can build something that can do railroad diagrams or force-directed as a stylistic flavor of the same engine.
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14:28:47owl_000what is `defer`, ttps://nim-by-example.github.io/files/ examples are not working. Error: defer statement not supported at top level, where to put it?
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14:29:45FromGitter<alehander42> it "defers" something to be ran in the end of a function call
14:30:01FromGitter<alehander42> hm .. does it add a "finally" handler ?
14:30:03FromGitter<alehander42> not sure
14:30:37FromGitter<alehander42> probably it doesnt make sense to run on top level, as with the finish of the program most things are released
14:30:56owl_000oh, i dunno
14:34:21FromGitter<awr1> in a loose sense it attaches things to execute at the end of the current lexical scope
14:35:05FromGitter<awr1> it is slightly more complicated than that in reality though
14:35:48owl_000so why the examples are not working?
14:36:08FromGitter<awr1> because it's tied into the exception system and tries to guarante itself to execute even if exceptions are raised
14:36:27FromGitter<awr1> which examples don't work?
14:36:53owl_0002nd and 3rd
14:37:12FromGitter<awr1> oh just put it all in a `block`
14:38:05FromGitter<awr1> https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=1UqK
14:39:21owl_000thanks it is working now
14:41:15owl_000not supported at top level, top level means toooplevel, and other are inside something.
14:50:29clyybberReminds me of wanting to make defer work at toplevel
14:50:31Araqdon't use 'defer' ;-)
14:50:35*Araq hates defer...
14:50:51clyybberWhy?
14:54:03Araqbecause it's unclear which scope it refers to, it only works because every other language construct in Nim actually has sane scoping
14:54:55Araqdesign a 'defer'-like 'if' statement to see for yourself
14:54:58FromGitter<alehander42> defer is a bit like COMEFROM
14:55:01FromGitter<alehander42> maybe?
14:55:11FromGitter<alehander42> comefrom <error location/finish location>
14:56:04Araqdo(); defer: undo() is not clear code, the connection between 'do' and 'undo' is still not written down
14:56:58Araqsomething like do() ~> undo() might work
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14:58:23AraqI wouldn't say it's COMEFROM, but it's a weird beast
14:59:17FromGitter<alehander42> well, its a bit like ⏎ COMEFROM end_of_artificial_finally_added_to_end_scope ⏎ compiler_try { other code } ⏎ compiler_inserted_finally (label) [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5d72744471aa13329fcf684d]
14:59:21FromGitter<alehander42> but i might be wrong
14:59:51FromGitter<alehander42> (it's more like comefrom : do x; goto after_end )
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15:05:22FromGitter<awr1> defer *can be* useful for things that require manual cleanup because it syntactically couples initialization with destruction
15:05:59Araqbut it doesn't as I've tried to explain
15:06:14FromGitter<awr1> i should have said "could be"
15:07:03FromGitter<awr1> also i didn't see
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15:17:15shashlickDoes C system() inherit the parent process environment?
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15:32:22AraqI think so
15:35:41disruptekanyone know why StringStream isn't avail in js backend?
15:37:41Araqit's hard to port, I gave it a shot
15:38:06disruptekokie, thanks.
15:39:22disruptekit's surprising that i can't read json at compile-time when compiling to js, but i guess i don't care if i can't read yaml, either. ;-)
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15:47:20FromGitter<alehander42> i still dont undestand
15:47:29FromGitter<alehander42> why CT code depends on the runtime target
15:48:04FromGitter<alehander42> it is just platform-independent bytecode
15:48:14FromGitter<alehander42> is it because of using CT generated values
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15:49:15Araqbecause of sizeof(T)
15:49:52FromGitter<alehander42> but what does it matter
15:49:53Araqbut usually there is not a technical problem really, it's however really hard to write code that works at CT, at runtime and with the JS backend at the same time...
15:50:05FromGitter<alehander42> ah, probably
15:50:11FromGitter<alehander42> so i guess staticExec should work
15:50:16FromGitter<alehander42> for those json cases disruptek
15:50:28FromGitter<alehander42> both for yaml and json?
15:53:52disrupteksorry, bot went awol
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15:54:22disrupteki don't need staticExec, as if it was capable of doing anything good, i'd ask the user to do it for me.
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15:55:37FromGitter<alehander42> what is the problem with it:
15:55:46FromGitter<alehander42> distributing a callable binary to call?
15:56:08FromGitter<alehander42> this theoretically is not a problem, as you can call your own binary with different args
15:56:11disruptekthe maintainer of `yq` already does that.
15:56:33FromGitter<alehander42> wait, the last part doesnt really make sense nvm
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17:16:05Cadeydisruptek: wait what, is yq like jq for yaml?
17:25:05FromGitter<kaushalmodi> Cadey: .. and xml too
17:25:33FromGitter<kaushalmodi> when yq is installed, I think `xq` is symlinked or something to `yq`
17:26:03FromGitter<kaushalmodi> and I can pass the xq output to jq as it converts the xml to json
17:30:54disruptekmade an example: https://github.com/disruptek/openapi
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17:49:59FromDiscord_<treeform> disruptek: I started working on a JS string stream with same API: https://github.com/treeform/jsutils/blob/master/src/jsutils/streams.nim
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18:01:56disruptektreeform: sweet, does it work?
18:09:29disrupteki think it would have to get integrated into nim-yaml for me to use it, unfortunately.
18:14:39FromGitter<iffy> Any tips for this error? `stdlib_asyncdispatch.nim.cpp:2207:8: error: use of undeclared identifier ⏎ ⏎ ``` 'NIM_UNLIKELY' ⏎ if (!NIM_UNLIKELY((deq.count < ((NI) 1)))) goto LA3_;```` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5d72a20fc59390272024b502]
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18:16:00Araqiffy: get an updated nimbase.h
18:16:18*FromGitter * iffy tries
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18:18:07FromGitter<iffy> That did it; thank you!
18:28:10FromDiscord_<treeform> disruptek, I found that most of the stream users use the pointer based API where they copy bytes - that is not supported in JS. It would only work if nim-yaml uses a more constrained byte reader api.
18:28:27disruptekright.
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18:43:00Araqactually it's not that bad
18:43:51Araqthere is readDataStrImpl and lexbase uses that if available
18:43:54Araqand nothing else
18:44:14Araqso all the parsers based on lexbase can start working with JS if you write a string stream that supports readDataStrImpl
18:45:33disruptekthat doesn't sound all that difficult.
18:46:49Araqirk
18:46:52Araqikr
18:47:06ZevvPMunch: more: http://ix.io/1UrV. It looks nifty and all, but not sure if it is worth the extra code, given that it is not even possible to properly represent peg grammars :)
18:47:43disruptekhey, those are cute.
18:49:14disrupteki have to figure out a js-friendly httpclient before i worry about parsing json/yaml, i guess.
18:52:10FromDiscord_<treeform> disruptek, I was going to work on "a js-friendly httpclient" that next 🙂
18:52:31disruptekwhy are you building this stuff, if you don't mind my asking?
18:53:25FromDiscord_<treeform> I work on internal tools. I wrote the backend for internal tools in nim.
18:53:38FromDiscord_<treeform> Now I am porting front end of internal tools to nim
18:54:01disruptekah, neat.
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18:55:24FromDiscord_<treeform> I also really like rewriting libraries
18:55:36FromDiscord_<treeform> I feel I get a really deep understanding of the problem domain that way
18:55:50FromDiscord_<treeform> I think thats the number 1 issues in programming today:
18:56:23FromDiscord_<treeform> "programmers use too many libraries without understanding them"
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18:56:53disrupteki'd say `programmers use too many libraries` full-stop.
18:57:12FromDiscord_<treeform> well its fine to use tons of libraries provided you know them well?
18:59:22FromGitter<mratsim> @treeform you should go deep learning instead of deep understanding ;)
19:00:20disruptekjust too much code. so hard to escape it.
19:00:30FromDiscord_<treeform> I tried deep learning, it takes soo long or too much $$$ to train anything usefully... I kind of got bored.
19:01:50FromDiscord_<treeform> I did a ton of Genetic Programming back in the 2000s... but a competing technology - deep learning won instead. I am still a bit sore about it.
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19:10:17FromGitter<mratsim> deep learning didn’t win against genetic algorithm, far from it
19:10:52FromGitter<mratsim> reinforcement learning agents use deep learning for perception but they are often trained via genetic algorithm
19:11:07FromGitter<mratsim> look into NEAT for example (Neuro-Evolution)
19:13:21FromDiscord_<treeform> genetic algorithm, not genetic programming...
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20:41:03federico3https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/12152 anybody else getting poor performance with Json?
20:44:08disrupteknope.
20:48:07disrupteklemme try your repro.
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20:50:20disruptekfor me, it's 3.6s with release, 2.9s with danger.
20:51:45disruptekit's "only" 2800 lines but ~360mb.
20:52:33federico3with devel or the same version of Nim?
20:52:41disruptekdevel.
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20:53:08disrupteki can generate 43k lines of nim from an 81k json input in 20s.
20:54:38disruptekdid you try -d:danger?
20:57:04FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> PMunch Game Maker's Companion i meant
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21:02:23federico3disruptek: yep, same
21:02:38federico3disruptek: yep, same
21:03:34disruptekdid you try devel?
21:03:53federico3not yet
21:04:23disruptekthe fact that python is faster rules out a lot of usual suspects.
21:13:55FromGitter<brentp> @frederico3 try with -d:danger
21:14:25FromGitter<brentp> oh. i'm late to the party. that's already been suggested.
21:14:59Zevvillegal json btw, escaping / with \ :)
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21:23:52Araqlz4: command not found
21:25:26Araqtrying to use homebrew but it takes forever
21:26:25Araqstill have to meet a single package manager that is not a pain in the ass...
21:27:52disruptekit took gentoo all of 14.4s to install.
21:28:21FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Question: Whats the ETA on the next version(possibly 1.0 ?...) ?
21:28:47Araqit's complete, we're doing QA on it
21:28:48federico3Same performance with Nim 0.20.99
21:29:12FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> it's not 1.0 yet is it ?
21:30:38Araqwe screwed up versioning IMO, 0.19.6 should have been 1.0
21:31:18FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Man did i pick the timing, find Nim just before 1.0 or right on it XD
21:32:34Araqfederico3: 6s for me with -d:danger and --gc:markAndSweep
21:33:02FromDiscord_<DeltaPHC> Does the 1.0 stability guarantee also cover experimental features? As in, will experimental features just function however they function throughout 1.x?
21:33:41federico3Araq: Python is taking 4 on the same host
21:34:29AraqDeltaPHC, I would say, exception: the 'do' notation
21:34:38AraqDeltaPHC, I would say yes, only exception: the 'do' notation
21:35:10Araqfederico3: have the Python script handy?
21:35:12disruptekwith gc:markAndSweep, i get 2.045s. that's a pretty big bump.
21:35:41Araqdisruptek: 2s?! what cpu do you have?
21:35:54disrupteki7-8700k
21:36:50federico3with markAndSweep it went from 20s to 10.9
21:37:31disrupteklet's see the python.
21:37:44FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Does this test you guys are doing use multiple cores ?
21:37:51federico3nope
21:37:51disrupteknah.
21:38:16Araqfederico3: most likely cause: overly long lines that screw up our IO buffering
21:39:01Araqin fact, my editor refuses to show the lines completely
21:39:31FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> if you guys need 153Ghz of compute power for anything, ask me, i got a server for data mining collecting dust.
21:40:07federico3they are JSON objects, average size 33KB with some up to 1MB
21:40:56disruptekit takes me 1.2s just to count the newlines with `wc`.
21:43:57Araq153Ghz compute power? how does that work?
21:44:03disruptekquickly.
21:45:22FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> okay not the best term for it but um, i got 4 cpus each with 16 cores at about 2.2 Ghz to a bit more on turbo
21:45:45FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Was dad's for chess(he was damn good)
21:51:35FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I can't think of a use for it, tried mining crypto coin with, figured out it's not worth it, either sell it if it's still worth anything or data mine something... no idea what.
21:52:19Zevvplay starcraft on it, very fast
21:52:31FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> sadly starcraft is single core...
21:52:35FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> all of them
21:53:03Zevvplay 64 starcrafts in parallel, moderately fast
21:53:44FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Wait..... why the hell do i need web hosting provider when i can host on that...
21:54:50Zevvdude.
21:55:06Zevvwell, nevermind, I'll stop the feeding. ZzzZ, goodnight kiloneie!
21:55:14FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> xD, you too
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22:04:55Araqgot it down to 2.8s
22:05:19Araqfactor 3 speedup
22:06:27Araqfederico3: interested in the code?
22:09:33FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Araq: what did you guys use besides Nim's JS backend for the website, as in tools ?
22:09:48Araqyou don't want to know
22:10:35FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Did you write html and css by hand xD ? That would of taken a while.
22:23:46Araqwe use Jekyll, some Ruby based stuff
22:24:38FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Interesting
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22:25:49Araqwe had something much better, built with Nim's docgen
22:26:49FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> I am looking for something to design a website without manual coding html and css so i can use Nim's JS with it, found a ton, and yet nothing really shines out.
22:29:30Araquse 'karun'?
22:30:58FromDiscord_<Kiloneie> Do you have a link, i found nothing on "karun" on google, by also writing web design, it found me something but not sure if it's what you meant
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22:51:11Araqkarun is a tool that ships with karax
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22:56:26federico3Araq: sure, I can try it on the slow host doing 20s and see where we get
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