<< 06-12-2023 >>
00:02:10FromDiscord<guttural666> when building things yes, rather fail fast and hard
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00:02:23SamuelMarkshi
00:02:32FromDiscord<guttural666> tighter feedback loop, makes youl learn more faster
00:04:18FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The real stupid solution would be to use `ref int` 😄
00:05:15FromDiscord<bostonboston> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/CgTmD
00:24:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I suppose someone should say 'hi' to that person that said 'hi;
00:25:55FromDiscord<guttural666> In reply to @SamuelMarks "hi": buongiorno!
00:26:36FromDiscord<guttural666> @ElegantBeef this should work somehow? https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1181753521750675476/image.png?ex=658234bb&is=656fbfbb&hm=2f95f2d672f7f02b752d67e8365ec650ad0413ad728005eeed05b26d26a57135&
00:26:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Using async across threads is a nono
00:27:01FromDiscord<guttural666> maybe return the Futures as ptrs and keep them alive in the scheduler?
00:27:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> The creating thread should finish the future as each thread has it's own dispatcher
00:27:31FromDiscord<guttural666> well it would be contained to the scheduler, and if fullfilled passed to the caller
00:27:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Does not matter where it's contained the async loop is thread local
00:28:01FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So you should use channels likely to send results of async around
00:28:19FromDiscord<guttural666> thread to thread communication?
00:28:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes
00:29:21FromDiscord<guttural666> mhhmmmm, okay, gonna write that down, channels I think are a thing in nim as well
00:29:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Your main thread tells your consumers what they're working on then send a response to a channel which is a queue
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00:33:53FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Depending what you're doing malebolgia/taskpools are better
00:48:08FromDiscord<graveflo> is there a convenience `proc` that converts a `NimNode`s data to string properly? Like it's kind and all of it's children and their kinds etc?
00:48:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `repr`?
00:48:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> `treeRepr`?
00:49:50FromDiscord<graveflo> I think `repr` gives you what the syntax would look like if it were typed out, which is nice. I'll try `treeRepr`. Those procs seem to give you AST style output not necessarily data structure type of layout. Like if a `NimNode` has 3 sons it's hard to tell that and their kinds from those `procs`
00:52:24FromDiscord<graveflo> like if you had an `nnkCall` `NimNode`, say `node` and you do this: `node[0]` that might be something, but its hard to get an idea of what the 0th element of a `nnkCall` node is without seeing the data structure as a string as opposed to it's resulting AST
00:52:59FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You don't have the entire Nim AST memorised?!
00:53:06FromDiscord<graveflo> no T.T
00:53:29FromDiscord<graveflo> I'll do it soon! I just need more time!!
00:53:30FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://github.com/beef331/nimscripter/blob/master/examples/macrorepl/macrorepl.nim this project does someone help with that though it's just more of a test of nimscripter
00:54:08FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://streamable.com/6m5ww1
01:21:21FromDiscord<saint.___.> In reply to @Elegantbeef "https://streamable.com/6m5ww1": What editor are yo using ?
01:23:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> I was using vscode there
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04:25:19NimEventerNew thread by ggb-sw1: How to create local packages, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10734
04:26:19NimEventerNew thread by sls1005: 2nd level parameter typing, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10735
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05:40:39FromDiscord<alireza0x0> anyone knows if nim strtabs with string keys are collison safe or not?
05:40:59FromDiscord<alireza0x0> i didn't find anyinformation about this...,
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05:55:38FromDiscord<alireza0x0> hmm i think its not as its not supposed to be ...
05:57:24FromDiscord<alireza0x0> by the way, today is 6 December , are the mastering nim book challenge winners choosen? I didnt receive any email 😱
06:02:37FromDiscord<huantian> In reply to @alireza0x0 "anyone knows if nim": nim uses MurmurHash, so might be worthing looking at that
06:04:28FromDiscord<alireza0x0> In reply to @huantian "nim uses MurmurHash, so": interesting ! i wonder why this is not written in hashes docs...
06:05:13FromDiscord<alireza0x0> (edit) "written in" => "written/mentionedin"
06:05:15FromDiscord<huantian> yeah not sure
06:05:17FromDiscord<alireza0x0> (edit) "written/mentionedin" => "written/mentioned in"
06:05:43FromDiscord<huantian> one proc in the code that's used is `murmurHash` so i just assumed tho
06:06:07FromDiscord<alireza0x0> yea, google says its a very famous alg for hash tables
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07:17:35NimEventerNew thread by kobi: Hardware-software interaction in Nim, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10736
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13:09:20FromDiscord<9ih> nim is a great aoc language
13:09:34FromDiscord<9ih> (edit) "nim is a great ... aoc" added "language for" | removed "language"
13:10:22FromDiscord<nnsee> indeed
13:10:30FromDiscord<nnsee> check out the #aoc channel for more aoc-related chatter
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13:11:18FromDiscord<Phil> Conceptual channel question:↔If I send a message through a channel, how does it actually go from Thread A to thread B?
13:11:55FromDiscord<Phil> Does it go "Thread A sends messages to OS which forwards it to thread B" ?
13:16:33FromDiscord<nnsee> In reply to @isofruit "Conceptual channel question: If": i would assume that channels are an abstraction over a queue in memory (count of messages in the channel + data) and a lock/semaphore that handles safely accessing the queue
13:16:43FromDiscord<nnsee> not really sure what you mean by "messages to OS"
13:18:09FromDiscord<nnsee> actually, the channels implementation doesn't seem to be very complicated or long at all https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/version-2-0/lib/system/channels_builtin.nim
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13:36:09FromDiscord<odexine> All references are pointers in that sense
13:36:25FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> In reply to @odexine "All references are pointers": Ah, okay. Thanks @odexine
13:37:34FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/YMLmn
13:39:59FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> (edit) "https://paste.rs/Sa4AQ" => "https://paste.rs/0XU7D"
13:53:50FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @nnsee "not really sure what": Mostly whether the OS is somehow involved in message passing, thinking it through tough I don't think it is, since it is the semaphore that triggers the Callback on the other thread and all of this is basically just possible due to shared memory between the threads
13:57:07FromDiscord<nnsee> indeed
13:57:24FromDiscord<nnsee> well, the OS is involved by orchestrating memory management between threads :p
13:57:35FromDiscord<nnsee> but that's probably not what you had in mind
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14:47:44FromDiscord<nnsee> hey, Nim is on the funny orange site
14:47:45FromDiscord<nnsee> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543491
14:48:27PMunchnnsee, just titled "Nim" :P
14:48:37FromDiscord<nnsee> yeah i noticed that
14:49:25FromDiscord<ringabout> That's a funny title, but btw clicking on a shared URLdirectly doesn't increase the ranking of the article on the hackernews
14:49:39FromDiscord<nnsee> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1181970713003962448/image.png?ex=6582ff01&is=65708a01&hm=c080c8d8a9946eee253ecae75576deb459599376a17538e8ce3955ea2bea1102&
14:49:40FromDiscord<nnsee> wow
14:49:50FromDiscord<nnsee> i think this is more indicative of the person's own mind
14:50:04FromDiscord<nnsee> because i've seen that cover like 5 times now and that image hasn't ever crossed my mind
14:51:07FromDiscord<Zoom> Yay, riding the HNFP!
14:51:25FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @nnsee "i think this is": Was a case of "Now that you mentioned it I can't unsee it" for me
14:52:50FromDiscord<ringabout> Well, that picture was generated by AI in order to create a crown, it didn't occur to me when I saw it
14:53:00FromDiscord<Phil> FUCKING LOL
14:53:08FromDiscord<Phil> AI with a dirty mind
14:55:44PMunchCan you blame it? We trained it on stuff created by humans after all :P
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15:18:57FromDiscord<Phil> Next concurrency question:↔To be on the safe-side that I understand Malebolgia correctly - It is a solution for e.g. running "map" on a list concurrently, correct?↔As in, you have a queue of independent tasks and you have a thread-pool that works through that queue one by one
15:22:40FromDiscord<fowl.mouth> In reply to @nnsee "because i've seen that": My wife saw it right away
15:23:08FromDiscord<fowl.mouth> Thought it was intentional 😂
15:48:09FromDiscord<agent90702> Great language.
15:49:42FromDiscord<Clonkk> I think it shows, once again, that Nim needs an org that handles communication & marketing.↔(@nnsee)
15:55:13FromDiscord<so what i am a> helo every1 i am new 2 nim and i want to interface discordjs
15:55:49FromDiscord<so what i am a> import { Client, GatewayIntentBits } from 'discord.js';↔const client = new Client({ intents\: [GatewayIntentBits.Guilds] });
15:56:00FromDiscord<so what i am a> how do i do the client
16:00:59FromDiscord<so what i am a> sent a long message, see https://paste.rs/yc4gZ
16:16:45FromDiscord<nnsee> In reply to @PMunch "<@961485620075720734>, just titled "Nim"": title is changed now
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16:35:19FromDiscord<spotlightkid> Yeah, that's what I wrote in the freeform comment entry of the Nim survey as well.
16:36:05FromDiscord<so what i am a> guyes hellp
16:37:45FromDiscord<Phil> There's not that many people that are more knowledgeable on the JS backend on the nim side that I'm aware of↔As per the usual obligatory @hotdog6666 ping for this
16:38:10FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "more" => "all that"
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17:31:32FromDiscord<Phil> I wonder if I can use sysrand at compiletime
17:33:16FromDiscord<systemonia> Maybe you can use the static block in some way, or you can pass base64-encoded random data via string definitions (although that is kinda clunky)
17:33:29FromDiscord<Phil> The answer is no
17:33:43FromDiscord<Phil> Nah, generally stuff that calls "out of nim" is not compiletime
17:33:49FromDiscord<Phil> sysrand belongs to that
17:33:55FromDiscord<systemonia> oh
17:34:51FromDiscord<Phil> I just had hopes that I might be able to generate a random string at compiletime for an application id if the user forgets to set one 😅
17:35:19FromDiscord<systemonia> Hm... You could supply it as a build argument.
17:35:29FromDiscord<systemonia> But again, that is quite clunky.
17:35:35FromDiscord<systemonia> (edit) "clunky." => "clunky and annoying"
17:35:47FromDiscord<Phil> It also doesn't work because if you supply it as a build argument that means the user of your lib is supplying it, meaning they need to know about it
17:35:58FromDiscord<Phil> While the point is to generate something so they don't have to
17:36:21FromDiscord<Phil> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/KJ5Q2
17:36:49FromDiscord<systemonia> Now I am curious if you can use nimble tasks to do that.
17:36:52FromDiscord<gyatsoyt> Is anyone working on chess library?
17:37:14FromDiscord<systemonia> (edit) "do that." => "automate it."
17:38:50FromDiscord<Phil> Not that I'm aware of
17:43:17FromDiscord<systemonia> I tried taking advantage of nimble's before tasks but then quickly realized that nimscript lacks an FFI so std/sysrand is not available.↔In other words, it really is impossible. If it is absolutely important that the user sets a random seed then you can throw a fatal error on compile-time. But that might be annoying.
17:44:42FromDiscord<Phil> Turns out I really just did not understand how gtk notifications work
17:44:50FromDiscord<Phil> Which is to say they require you to have a desktop.ini file
17:44:54FromDiscord<Phil> Which I didn't
17:45:20FromDiscord<Phil> Wait, no... damn my head, right I still want to be able to avoid multiple identical notification thingies
17:45:32FromDiscord<so what i am a> [@hotdog6666](https://matrix.to/#/%40_discord_472459996068839424%3At2bot.io) can you help me please
18:11:47FromDiscord<systemonia> In reply to @so what i am a "{.emit\:""" import { Client,": Quick question, what features of discord.js do you plan to use?
18:12:40FromDiscord<systemonia> (edit) "In reply to @so what i am a "{.emit\:""" import { Client,": Quick question, what features of discord.js do you plan to use? ... " added "Do you only plan on using Client and GatewayIntentBits?"
18:25:38FromDiscord<can.l> Or is it just "undefined behaviour"?
18:26:25FromDiscord<can.l> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/nVIht
18:26:26FromDiscord<Phil> A stack overflow from unlimited recursion
18:26:37FromDiscord<systemonia> Its quite confusing
18:26:45FromDiscord<systemonia> Im gonna guess the same.
18:27:05FromDiscord<can.l> The question is basically, should a proc be able to deallocate its own closure?
18:27:10FromDiscord<can.l> In reply to @isofruit "A stack overflow from": Why that?
18:28:38FromDiscord<can.l> The current output is quite inconsistent: compiling it normally it outputs `99` with `-d:useMalloc` it outputs `10`
18:29:18FromDiscord<Phil> Create callback never finishes calling itself, there's no end condition that I can see
18:29:50FromDiscord<systemonia> It doesnt call it I think
18:29:52FromDiscord<can.l> It does not call itself though, it just replaces itself.
18:30:25FromDiscord<Phil> Missed the result on my phone
18:30:28FromDiscord<Phil> Hmm
18:30:39FromDiscord<can.l> With `--m:none` it outputs `10` again, with `--m:arc` it outputs `99`
18:31:11FromDiscord<can.l> (edit) "`--m:none`" => "`--mm:none`" | "`--m:arc`" => "`--mm:arc`"
18:31:19FromDiscord<can.l> `--mm:boehm` outputs `10`
18:32:43FromDiscord<can.l> This is my attempt at reducing https://github.com/can-lehmann/owlkettle/issues/145#issuecomment-1826929998 btw
18:39:37FromDiscord<Phil> Honestly I'm mostly chalking this one up as doing a thing you shouldn't
18:40:03FromDiscord<Phil> You don't manipulate data that belongs to the main thread in a side-task
18:41:12FromDiscord<Phil> That and the chess example were the reason I found myself trying to figure out an implementation for a server-client setup with owlkettle
18:44:41FromDiscord<can.l> The issue comment I linked to should definitely be ok though.
18:44:50FromDiscord<can.l> (edit) "be ok" => "work"
18:46:10NimEventerNew thread by can-lehmann: What is the expected behaviour for a proc replacing its own closure?, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10737
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18:59:39FromDiscord<so what i am a> i want to use it to make a bot so client stuff only↔(@pengwyns)
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19:00:50FromDiscord<systemonia> Have you looked into using a pure Nim library for Discord? Since using Discord.js in nim requires wrapping it which might be a pain.
19:01:59FromDiscord<so what i am a> yea but i also want to understand how to do wrapping stuff
19:02:03FromDiscord<so what i am a> so i can wrap things that do not already have bindings
19:03:53FromDiscord<systemonia> I don't know much about wrapping Js libraries myself but I found these useful links: https://nim-lang.org/docs/jsffi.html https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#implementation-specific-pragmas-importjs-pragma
19:03:57PMunchMaaaay I interest you in Futhark?
19:04:10PMunchOh, you where talking about JS stuff, never mind
19:05:15FromDiscord<so what i am a> i looked at those before and figured out how to wrap basic functions but idk how to wrap stuff that return objects or wrap constructers
19:10:01PMunchAoC stream is live! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb-DrWCb_VE https://twitch.tv/pmunche
19:12:24FromDiscord<so what i am a> if i try adding "new" keyword i also get a type mismatch
19:13:46FromDiscord<so what i am a> sent a long message, see https://paste.rs/3kX3a
19:25:53FromDiscord<Phil> I'd like to question making a field private when you provide a proc that exposes it anyway
19:26:03FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/7UQNu
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19:26:13FromDiscord<Phil> For the rest let me see
19:28:23FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> Okay, I got the point.
19:28:40NimEventerNew thread by ML: Forum dark theme, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10738
19:29:07FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> @Phil I just want to read only table
19:29:09FromDiscord<Phil> Wait... what version of nim are you using?↔How is `this._items` not murdering your compilation way before it even gets to that point?
19:29:11FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> (edit) "https://paste.rs/nzsZn" => "https://paste.rs/ypNVq"
19:29:33FromDiscord<Phil> Because `_` as the first character of a symbol should blow up in your face
19:29:38FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> (edit) "@Phil I just want to ... read" added "implement"
19:29:59FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> In reply to @isofruit "Because `_` as the": That's for showing here
19:30:07FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> I am using mItems
19:30:25FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @kcvinker5420 "<@180601887916163073> I just want": In that case wouldn't that be simply providing a distinct table type, but only providing your own access procs without any mutation procs
19:30:41NimEventerNew thread by vonH: An Ode to my Goddess Nim., see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10739
19:30:56FromDiscord<Phil> Let me write up an example
19:33:10FromDiscord<Phil> I'm not that fast writing this code, give me a moment 😄
19:33:26FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> Oky
19:33:34FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> (edit) "Oky" => "Okay"
19:33:58FromDiscord<odexine> i just got here i didnt backread
19:34:17FromDiscord<odexine> you dont, `tables` defines that proc generically
19:34:40FromDiscord<odexine> how would `this[key]` work otherwise haha
19:34:43FromDiscord<Phil> They want a read only table overall
19:35:01FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/bzz1w
19:35:35FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> In reply to @odexine "you dont, `tables` defines": If i didn't implemented the `[]` overload, I will get the type mismatch error
19:35:59FromDiscord<odexine> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/D1VM3
19:36:14FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/tUk0x
19:37:14FromDiscord<Phil> Which I feel like should be more than enough of a warning sign for a programmer to not do that and instead work with your abstraction
19:37:33FromDiscord<odexine> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/A7ptd
19:38:01FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/oPlsT
19:38:48FromDiscord<Phil> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/AYFot
19:39:00FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> In reply to @isofruit "Which I feel like": Solved with @odexine 's answer.
19:39:21FromDiscord<kcvinker5420> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/ZMqfq
19:52:53NimEventerNew thread by nim-horse: How to wrap JS object returned from a JS function, see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10740
20:04:14FromDiscord<9ih> what is actually the audience for nim
20:04:21FromDiscord<9ih> like I like it and I want to use it
20:04:32FromDiscord<9ih> but I'm just like your standard js soydev
20:04:37FromDiscord<9ih> is the audience for nim just javascript soydevs
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20:10:10FromDiscord<systemonia> I am not a javascript dev (never was) but I enjoy programming it. Nim is used for quite a lot of things: embedded systems, web apps, data processing and I remember someone writing a kernel in it too!
20:10:40FromDiscord<systemonia> Nim is just a great language to use whenever. It has no specific niche I think
20:10:55FromDiscord<systemonia> (edit) "I am not a javascript dev (never was) but I enjoy programming ... it." added "in"
20:31:02FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @9ih "but I'm just like": Note that there's no particular nieche.↔I'd say activity is more focused on embedded, appdev, gamdev and for webdev mostly the backend parts.↔There is of course the JS frontend and some folks are rather prolific in it, but that's not a terribly large amount of folks.↔Basically it makes more sense to ask that question in who uses which backend and I'm not aware of a ton of people doing more elabor
20:32:04FromDiscord<Phil> That's not to say that won't change, hotdog stated he wanted to do some work on karax docs and I'm looking forward to them quite a bit, particularly since I'd be tempted to try a rewrite of the snorlogue frontend if he does.
20:32:52FromDiscord<Phil> Which might spiral into other things like how owlkettle somehow spiraled into me writing a lib about spawning a thread as a server for easy multithreading
20:33:05FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "Which might spiral into other things like how ... owlkettle" added "contributing to"
20:33:23FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "server" => "server-like-backend" | "server-like-backendfor easy multithreading ... " added "with owlkettle (or generally any "frontend")"
20:33:32FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "Which might spiral into other things like how contributing to owlkettle somehow spiraled into me writing a lib about spawning a thread as a server-like-backend for easy multithreading with owlkettle (or generally any ... "frontend")" added "native"
20:34:22FromDiscord<9ih> I'm wondering rn if it might be a fun sorta scripting language
20:34:27FromDiscord<9ih> in the same way that Unreal uses C++
20:34:34FromDiscord<9ih> (edit) "in the same way that Unreal uses C++ ... " added "for scripting"
20:34:36FromDiscord<9ih> (edit) "scripting" => ""scripting""
20:34:43FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You could use it the same way
20:34:53FromDiscord<voidwalker> I use it instead of bash for random scripting in a more sane way
20:34:55FromDiscord<Phil> enu uses nim for scripting which is based on godot 3
20:34:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a language that can technically be used "anywhere"
20:34:57FromDiscord<9ih> how easy is it to embed? like insert into a C program
20:35:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Enu uses nimscript\
20:35:03FromDiscord<9ih> (edit) "how easy is it to embed? like insert into a C program ... " added "and execute"
20:35:05FromDiscord<9ih> wait
20:35:12FromDiscord<9ih> nvm I forgot it was compiled
20:35:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nim is not a scripting language, nimscript is
20:35:21FromDiscord<9ih> (edit) "how" => "~~how" | "execute" => "execute~~"
20:35:34FromDiscord<Phil> Ah, fair, I just saw the code and assumed it was actual nim
20:36:12FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @9ih "nvm I forgot it": I mean, that and nim's most used backend is the C backend
20:36:16FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You could use Nim just like Unreal uses C++
20:36:41FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Compile into a system library and reload that using your own version of hot code reload(nim's HCR is broken)
20:36:44FromDiscord<9ih> I haven't actually looked into how Unreal uses C++. does it compile to like a library file? like dll or something
20:36:55FromDiscord<9ih> and can nim be compiled into a dll?
20:37:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's a system language
20:38:20FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @9ih "I haven't actually looked": Why wouldn't it? It compiles to C, integrates easily with it and its toolchain.
20:38:46FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Phil responding to the wrong part of the message 😄
20:39:53FromDiscord<9ih> hm okay interesting
20:40:07FromDiscord<9ih> even though I'm struggling to see the specific like
20:40:12FromDiscord<9ih> or not specific but even general kinda usecase for nim
20:40:17FromDiscord<9ih> I think it's honestly just a really nice language
20:40:20FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Thanks to jmgomez's work you can even use NimForUE and use Nim inside UE
20:40:37FromDiscord<9ih> I love all of the design features and it just seems to be well rounded
20:40:44FromDiscord<9ih> so maybe I can find my own use for it
20:40:44FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Nim exists for the same reason Rust, Zig, Odin, C, C++, exist
20:40:57FromDiscord<9ih> I don't see how Nim can really compete with Rust Zig or C/C++
20:41:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It does
20:41:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Performance wise
20:41:28FromDiscord<9ih> I mean you're necessarily dropping performance by compiling to C in the first place
20:41:32FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It gives tonnes of control so it's not down to the language it's down to the logic implement
20:41:36FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> No you're not
20:41:41FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @9ih "I mean you're necessarily": What?
20:41:47FromDiscord<Phil> Okay, please elaborate how you come to that conclusion
20:41:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> C is not inherently faster than any language
20:42:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You can write shit code in any language
20:42:01FromDiscord<9ih> how can it be faster than C if it's compiling C?
20:42:04FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> What it comes down to is the programmer
20:42:10FromDiscord<9ih> that's like Nim >= C
20:42:13FromDiscord<9ih> necessarily
20:42:19FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @9ih "how can it be": That's not how this works
20:42:24FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Cause the code you can write in Nim can be optimised for humans and not machine but output code that is faster than idiomatic C
20:42:45FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> We have proper macros for instance, so any low level optimisation can be done in a highlevel way and be readable
20:42:46FromDiscord<systemonia> Also C compiler generally have good optimizations to ensure that code runs performant.
20:43:07FromDiscord<9ih> ya but it's never going to generate perfectly optimised code
20:43:12FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So Nim allows more productivity and an easier window into optimisations
20:43:28FromDiscord<Phil> Fundamentally it's all about the amount of operations needed to do a thing.↔Your code is faster the more optimal your pattern is.↔Nim is going to generate you faster code because getting to more optimal patterns is just easier than it is in C.
20:43:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> https://nim-lang.org/blog/2021/07/28/Nim-Efficient-Expressive-Elegant-Benchmarking.html refer to this
20:43:38FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Language is never the bottleneck it's thecleverness of the proigrammer
20:44:29FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "Fundamentally it's all about the amount of operations needed to do a thing.↔Your code is faster the more optimal your pattern ... is.↔Nim" added "of operations"
20:44:48FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "the cleverness of the programmer is"\
20:45:10FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Language is never the": Java.
20:45:15FromDiscord<systemonia> One way Nim is slower is in fx. compilation times but that's obvious. It would of course take some time to generate C code from Nim code.↔For all the wonderful perks we get with Nim, I am okay with slightly higher compilation times.
20:45:54FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Hey I do not see a Nim compiler written in C sitting around 😛
20:45:56FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @pengwyns "One way Nim is": Fun fact if you want to play around with that and have 20GB or so harddrive space free, arne's nlvm repo now comes with a repl
20:46:17FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @9ih "how can it be": simple: depends on how the C code is written. The C code generated by Nim’s C backend is designed to compile to fast and efficient executable. A human can write similar C code but may or may not be as fast/efficient depending on the developer and how well s/he understands the compiler toolchain, etc.
20:46:18FromDiscord<9ih> I mean I'm just basing off the output it generates for JS
20:46:27FromDiscord<9ih> as far as I can tell, the code it generates for JS is going to be unbearably slow
20:46:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Or you could just use https://github.com/arnetheduck/nlvm/releases Phil
20:46:28FromDiscord<Phil> And if I understood the repo correctly it goes directly to binary through llvm's IR rather than C
20:46:28FromDiscord<systemonia> Oh really? Thats amazing! I never tried nlvm tho but now thats one more reason to give it a shot.
20:46:37FromDiscord<9ih> (edit) "as far as I can tell, the code it generates for JS is going to be unbearably slow ... " added "compared to just writing JS"
20:46:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> JS does not have many of the features of Nim
20:46:56FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Or you could just": That makes a lot more sense
20:46:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> So you have to bootstrap features of Nim inside JS
20:46:58FromDiscord<systemonia> I generally dislike LLVM but I think my dislike is irrational rather than rational
20:47:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's also targeting ES3
20:47:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Plus you likely are not doing `-d:danger`
20:47:15FromDiscord<Phil> Now I wonder how the heck an AppImage of that works
20:47:25FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's 43mb
20:47:28FromDiscord<Phil> -d:danger does anything for JS?
20:47:31FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It includes llvm
20:47:42FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It removes a lot of checks and aggressively DCEs
20:47:47FromDiscord<Phil> But in JS?
20:47:52FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Yes
20:47:57FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It reduces size substantially
20:48:02FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Removes any Nim stack info
20:48:15FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It's mostly about code size there
20:48:28FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> It also removes some checks though iirc
20:48:44FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @Elegantbeef "It includes llvm": No I don't think you get what I mean:↔I never opened an AppImage that wasn't a gui, I'm not yet sure if I can just double click that binary
20:49:00FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> You `chmod +x` and use it like you use nim
20:49:04FromDiscord<systemonia> Try running it thru the comamnd line
20:49:17FromDiscord<systemonia> (edit) "comamnd" => "command"
20:49:35FromDiscord<Phil> Ohhh it functions as a CLI tool
20:49:40FromDiscord<systemonia> Exactly
20:49:42FromDiscord<9ih> In reply to @Elegantbeef "Plus you likely are": sorry but there's no way https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1182061324218417172/image.png?ex=65835365&is=6570de65&hm=185867a8c598f2aa3ebb5475b33544f201bf35aa69477b662877670a3813611e&
20:49:54FromDiscord<9ih> 75 line nim code
20:51:47FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Bridge died
20:51:50FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/371759389889003532/1182061860921561188/image.png?ex=658353e5&is=6570dee5&hm=cc5c81c3b56e16f1ef5259e30e6ba07a669e3178c5a05fbcf940153f0452c142&
20:52:30FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> But anyway using JS output as a benchmark has got to be a joke
20:53:01FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> JS as a backend language means you need to reimplement many things that Nim has
20:53:17FromDiscord<systemonia> I don't think its that much slower than vanilla Js. But, who knows.
20:53:23FromDiscord<systemonia> (edit) "I don't think its that much slower than ... vanilla" added "pure"
20:53:54FromDiscord<systemonia> Browsers regularly execute thousands upon thousands of lines of js.
20:53:58FromDiscord<Phil> I don't think he was implying to use nim-js for backend
20:54:04FromDiscord<Phil> That would seem like a strange idea
20:54:15FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Like you have to replicate value types, Nim exception handling, Nim runtime type information
20:54:19FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> I mean a Nim backend language phil
20:54:28FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Nim's JS generator is Nim's JS backend
20:54:43FromDiscord<systemonia> Like C or C++. Not actually using Js as a backend :P
20:54:45FromDiscord<Phil> Oh wow, webdev brain "Backend" => Server lang
20:55:01*disso-peach quit (Quit: Leaving)
20:55:03FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> What's your point?
20:55:05FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> "There's a lot of code"
20:55:06FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Ah there we go
20:55:07FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Did you compile with `-d:danger`, then run it through a minifier or the closure(clojure) compiler?
20:55:09FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Did you also actually benchmark it?
20:55:10FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Ping
20:55:12FromDiscord<systemonia> oh no
20:55:13FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Fucking slowpoke
20:55:23FromDiscord<Phil> That beef guy sounds like he has great ideas
20:55:25FromDiscord<systemonia> (edit) "oh no ... " added "(nvm)"
20:55:28FromDiscord<Phil> You should learn from him beef
20:55:31FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Indeed
20:56:58FromDiscord<Phil> Beef, can I do kind of like a mixin but for a generic type of a generic proc?
20:57:07FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> What does that even mean
20:57:37FromDiscord<Phil> Like I know the name of the types, I know they will exist, I just have to generate it first because I generate all the fields belonging to them
20:58:38FromDiscord<Phil> They just strictly speaking don't exist yet
20:58:49FromDiscord<Phil> but they will in the user's code!
20:58:51FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Use a concept
20:59:05FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Or inheritance
20:59:07FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Whichever you prefer
20:59:37FromDiscord<Phil> I am legit uncertain how a concept for that would look like
21:00:10FromDiscord<Phil> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/XF0wH
21:01:26FromDiscord<Phil> Wait, that doesn't reduce my problem, that just narrowed down my generic.↔I still have 3 generic parameters that I'd like to shrink down to 1
21:01:48FromDiscord<Phil> Since I know the name of 2 of the 3
21:01:56FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> I'm so lost at what the actual issue is
21:02:04FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Why do you have a generic procedure if you do not want it to be generic
21:02:42FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> If the user will implement `ServerMessage` and `ClientMessage` forward declare them and force the user to either use a macro or include it
21:02:50FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/rRS6y
21:03:04FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @elegantbeef "Why do you have": Essentially, ServerMessage and ClientMessage are object variants I generate based on types/procs the user annotates with my pragmas.
21:03:22FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> So why not just make `createListenerEvent` a template?
21:03:25FromDiscord<Phil> I hide some of the interaction with those variants from the user
21:03:31FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> That way it's created when invoked
21:03:37FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Instead of inside of your program
21:04:01FromDiscord<Phil> Good point, haven't tried it out yet, will do.↔Templates are one of the things I tend to just not think of
21:04:32FromDiscord<Phil> I have triggers in my mind that make me think of generics and macros when appropriate, for template I only have stuff where I want to write a context-manager
21:04:46FromDiscord<Phil> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/Kfq5d
21:04:49FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> One thing I've realised is templates can be used as generics that always resolve scope at callsite
21:04:54FromDiscord<systemonia> For how long will `-d:nimOldCaseObjects` continue to work? I really hope it won't get removed soon, since I just finished writing my config parser library.
21:05:15FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> No clue, it's very nice to be able to change branches
21:05:34FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @elegantbeef "One thing I've realised": I get what you mean, but I think I'll just have to internalize that more
21:05:37FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Though I think the new way is to use `{.cast(uncheckedAssign).}:...`
21:05:52FromDiscord<Phil> ~~Like an internalized string, being ever present until destruction~~
21:06:13FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#types-cast-uncheckedassign @pengwyns
21:09:01FromDiscord<Phil> Worked like a flipping charm
21:09:52FromDiscord<imagio> Is there a way to sort/filter on https://nimble.directory/ ? I just discovered nim and am exploring libraries. Unfortunately most of the results on nimble.directory are unmaintained for 4+ years. I'd like to see some of the more popular/active projects in nim.
21:10:17FromDiscord<imagio> (edit) "see" => "check out"
21:10:56FromDiscord<imagio> (edit) "Is there a way to sort/filter on https://nimble.directory/ ? I just discovered nim and am exploring libraries. Unfortunately most of the results on nimble.directory ... are" added "I've clicked on"
21:11:17FromDiscord<Phil> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/IZ72r
21:11:54FromDiscord<Phil> not that I'm aware of sadly, trending packages is the best you've got there.↔If you want to dive into karax though it should be pretty doable to add a sorting functionality ^^'
21:13:47FromDiscord<Phil> Slap a dropdown onto the "browse all packages" - Assuming there's not some github API limitation that is the root of the issue
21:14:12FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "Slap a dropdown onto the "browse all packages" ... -" added "with a changed event-listener that triggers a sorting proc"
21:14:23FromDiscord<imagio> Of course as someone who works in TS daily I'm used to the terrible state of the JS ecosystem where something that hasn't been updated for 3 months is probably broken. I'm guessing older nim code probably works just fine.
21:16:35FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @isofruit "There's not *that* many": The bat signal was raised đŸ«Ą
21:16:50FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @hotdog6666 "The bat signal was": There actually is now a nim thread calling for your aid!
21:17:14FromDiscord<Phil> Question, is there actually a repo for the nimble.directory
21:17:19FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "Question, is there actually a repo for the nimble.directory" => "https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10740"
21:18:58FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @so what i am a "guyes hellp": Are you still having trouble? Post in #webdev in might be easier to separate from the messages in main
21:19:13FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @isofruit "There actually is now": Ah
21:19:28FromDiscord<Phil> It's the same guy ^^
21:19:34FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @isofruit "not that I'm aware": There is even a basic Karax example along these lines
21:19:58FromDiscord<Phil> Fun fact, I have no idea where the rpeo for that site is
21:20:25FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "rpeo" => "repo"
21:20:52FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @imagio "Is there a way": @Phil @imagio https://github.com/karaxnim/karax/blob/master/examples/ajax/ajax.nim this might be a good starting point
21:21:02FromDiscord<piqueiras> If I have a seq of arrays with 2 elements is there a cool way to find the minimum of the elements in position 0 or just do normal way
21:21:23FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @isofruit "It's the same guy": Oh I’m on mobile, hard to follow what’s happening
21:21:51FromDiscord<piqueiras> Or turn a seq of arrays[N] into an array[N] of seqs
21:22:11FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @piqueiras "If I have a": I assume you already looked in sequtils and math?
21:23:12FromDiscord<Phil> Or just looked for min in the holy searchbar (I swear I'll make a stylized gif about clouds and angels singing framing that thing one day)
21:23:22FromDiscord<Phil> (only to have it inevitably used against me)
21:23:46FromDiscord<piqueiras> In reply to @isofruit "I assume you already": i mean there must be some weird lifting seqs thing
21:24:10FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @piqueiras "i mean there must": There is, but have you checked or are you banking on me typing into the searchbar 😛 ?
21:24:57FromDiscord<piqueiras> is
21:25:00FromDiscord<piqueiras> is zip for that?
21:25:19FromDiscord<Phil> I mean, without having found any docs for it, try @[1,5,3].max
21:25:34FromDiscord<piqueiras> i mean
21:25:37FromDiscord<piqueiras> i know about that
21:25:51FromDiscord<piqueiras> but i have a seq of arrays
21:26:21FromDiscord<Phil> Ahh check, in that case the functional way would be map and then max
21:26:25FromDiscord<nnsee> use `fold`
21:26:25FromDiscord<Phil> Which is wasteful to hell
21:26:37FromDiscord<Phil> Yeah fold likely is better
21:27:35FromDiscord<piqueiras> hmm
21:27:42FromDiscord<piqueiras> In reply to @piqueiras "Or turn a seq": and this?
21:28:57FromDiscord<Phil> I may be developing a cold because I can't even conceptualize the question and I know I should be able to
21:29:03FromDiscord<nnsee> In reply to @piqueiras "Or turn a seq": array sizes must be known at compile time
21:29:14FromDiscord<nnsee> seqs can be of any size
21:29:23FromDiscord<nnsee> so that won't even conceptually work
21:30:57FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> It does work if they want to only grab the first X
21:32:31FromDiscord<nnsee> i'm probably not fully understanding what they mean
21:33:20FromDiscord<piqueiras> In reply to @nnsee "array sizes must be": yeah ive had some problems with that
21:33:32FromDiscord<piqueiras> so take seq of seqs
21:33:41FromDiscord<piqueiras> and turn it the other way
21:34:28FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Really though that can jusut be `s: seq[T]`
21:34:50FromDiscord<piqueiras> so yea just make one oneself
21:35:11FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> Yea, it's not a common thing to convert a seq to an array
21:35:15FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> It's pretty pointless
21:35:25FromDiscord<piqueiras> understandable
21:35:53FromDiscord<ElegantBeef> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/LePIw
21:43:59NimEventerNew thread by Boston: Dealing with arrays (of bytes) across library boundaries, specifically C# , see https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10741
21:44:59FromDiscord<imagio> In reply to @isofruit "Slap a dropdown onto": Could be a good learning exercise. Unfortunately it seems that the package_directory repo doesn't compile under nim 2.0. I forked it and it fails on `nimble install` but that's a good learning exercise too 🙂
21:57:57FromDiscord<Phil> ... erk, yeah, a lot of that is mostly telling the compiler to shut up from what I can see about global access
21:58:23FromDiscord<Phil> Copious amounts of `{.cast(gcsafe).}`
21:58:32FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "`{.cast(gcsafe).}`" => "`{.cast(gcsafe).}:`"
21:58:44FromDiscord<imagio> yeah it's complaining about util.log being not gcsafe because it's a top level/global definition
21:58:54FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @imagio "yeah it's complaining about": That one is fairly easy tbh
21:59:00FromDiscord<imagio> I haven't read enough of the manual yet to understand why or what to do about that lol
21:59:32FromDiscord<systemonia> `{.cast(gcsafe).}:` brings me so many memories of trying so hard to create global variables. (Even though `threadvar` was way easier)
21:59:43FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @imagio "I haven't read enough": Essentially accessing globals is never safe because another thread could be manipulating those, etc., you can never be sure what state they're in
21:59:55FromDiscord<Phil> But in this case "you know better", so you use brute force, which is cast-gcsafe
22:00:09FromDiscord<Phil> It looks ugly and intentionally so, to discourage global usage
22:00:17FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "global" => "globals"
22:00:20FromDiscord<imagio> First I tried threadvar, but `Error: a thread var cannot be initialized explicitly; this would only run for the main thread`
22:00:39FromDiscord<imagio> Then I discovered `cast(gcsafe)` but I haven't learned enough yet to figure out if that's safe or not
22:00:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Then pass it to the thread as a `ptr T` from the main thread
22:00:55FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Globals are bad
22:01:05FromDiscord<systemonia> Oh I just made a proc to initialize the `threadvar`, I thought that was a normal thing to do.
22:01:16FromDiscord<Phil> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/CyJrd
22:01:21FromDiscord<Phil> But that is assuming you run in a multithreaded environment that needs locking datastructures
22:01:36FromDiscord<Phil> In a single threaded scenario it's still bad, but you're not running into multithreading issues
22:01:39FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> Right if you don't need locking and there is no gc'd memory you just pass a `ptr T`
22:01:42FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "In a single threaded scenario it's still bad, but you're not running into multithreading issues ... " added "that a lock would oslve"
22:02:30FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "oslve" => "solve"
22:02:51FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/9NEj0
22:03:04FromDiscord<imagio> I'm a total newbie to nim here, and I haven't done enough reading yet. This is not my code, I just forked https://github.com/FedericoCeratto/nim-package-directory to investigate adding a sort/filter as a learning exercise and it didn't compile for me due to this gcsafe global.
22:03:06FromDiscord<systemonia> Not sure why `let`s aren't considered gcsafe, even though they are immutable.
22:03:08FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @isofruit "But in this case": if you’re using `refc` then you can end up with SIGSEGV even if “you know better” because of opaque things happening with the gc
22:06:26FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @imagio "I'm a total newbie": It probably needs an older version of Nim
22:06:36FromDiscord<imagio> looks like this project has a bunch of globals that trigger the same problem
22:08:07FromDiscord<imagio> i'll try nim 1.6.16
22:09:32FromDiscord<systemonia> good luck
22:16:46FromDiscord<imagio> In reply to @pengwyns "good luck": Yep it works on 1.6.16. Is it common for older code to have problems compiling on 2.0?
22:23:30FromDiscord<Phil> Can you... not have a default value for template params?
22:24:48FromDiscord<odexine> do you see what you wrote xd
22:25:31FromDiscord<odexine> why? see parameter name
22:26:26FromDiscord<Phil> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/uFPr3
22:27:13FromDiscord<odexine> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/XoHqZ
22:28:19FromDiscord<Elegantbeef> They're not constants you can do `myLet.addr[] = ....`↔(@pengwyns)
22:34:44FromDiscord<Phil> In reply to @odexine "that expands to ": I think I just never considered it to be able to do code substition on a field name, no idea why
22:36:20FromDiscord<Phil> I think I can cut out a couple servers in that first block
22:36:25FromDiscord<Phil> (edit) "I think I can cut out a couple servers ... in" added "words"
22:37:06FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @imagio "Yep it works on": what’s the codebase?
22:37:26FromDiscord<Phil> https://github.com/FedericoCeratto/nim-package-directory↔Jester with karax essentially
22:37:47FromDiscord<Phil> sent a code paste, see https://paste.rs/Z0R5g
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23:40:45EvolverI'm not the only one to think it or say it: What's up with the offensive book cover suggesting a female lying down: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/MEDIAX_792452-T1/images/I/71C29j2CfJL._SL1500_.jpg The cover is totally trollish and irrelevant to Nim itself.
23:41:43EvolverI don't need an answer. It's just something to think about.
23:41:54EvolverBBL
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23:41:57FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @imagio "Yep it works on": Upgrading is not too bad in Nim, but for older projects they may have just not been upgraded yet. 2.0 was a bigger jump (being a major version) than other releases. I think the nimble package directory is not as actively developed at the moment
23:42:00*fallback quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
23:42:11FromDiscord<michaelb.eth> In reply to @Evolver "I'm not the only": how about taking the question/discussion to #offtopic
23:42:40FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @Evolver "I'm not the only": I don’t think it was intentional
23:43:54FromDiscord<hotdog6666> In reply to @hotdog6666 "Upgrading is not too": Fwiw I have projects that I upgraded to 2.0 and it was smooth and pretty quick