<< 07-03-2015 >>

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00:19:01	federico3	(and afaict a set should support "in" as well)
00:19:08	federico3	oops
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00:44:21	mpthrapp	I'm having some trouble with the httpclient module. I'm trying to loop through the results I get back from an API call, but I'm getting "undeclared identifier: 'counter'"
00:44:40	mpthrapp	https://bpaste.net/show/fc6812773a83
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00:48:23	mpthrapp	Specifically, it's the StringTableRef object in the Response object.
00:52:45	Araq	why do you think it has a counter?
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00:53:00	Araq	that's a private field
00:53:23	mpthrapp	Ahhhh, okay. I was looking at the strtabs module and I didn't realize it was private.
00:53:33	mpthrapp	How do I iterate over the results then?
00:57:50	mpthrapp	.pairs?
00:58:32	Araq	sure
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01:41:55	onionhammer	I think _ is easier to use, but im not sure if it should be used all that much :P
01:41:58	onionhammer	oops
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01:48:31	flaviu	How about the GSOC? Wasn't the meeting today?
01:48:52	def-	flaviu: i wrote an email instead
01:48:58	def-	https://gist.github.com/def-/cb01b21094e34ece4c30
01:49:27	flaviu	def-: thanks
01:49:51	flaviu	Seems like they wanted to downsize the program this year, they also rejected some long-time applicants.
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02:39:54	Kasprosian	in nim, are there lightweight datastructures a la JSON?
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02:55:27	flaviu	"lightweight datastructures"?
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02:57:56	def-	flaviu: forum thread: http://forum.nim-lang.org/t/987/1#5951
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02:58:47	flaviu	How about the json data type?
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03:05:18	jferg2010	It's been a little while since I checked in, but I've finally got some new potential enhancements to the docs to share. I would love some feedback on this - http://www.unraveltechnology.com/img/times.html
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03:10:01	Varriount	jferg2010: You might want to check in with filwit - he was also working on something related to documentation.
03:12:04	def-	jferg2010: it certainly looks nice, but an immediate issue I have is that the site feels more sluggish than the current one
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03:14:18	Varriount	def-, jferg2010: Chrome says that react.js takes the longest to load.
03:15:07	flaviu	jferg2010: Looks great, but there should be more padding around .code, the text almost touches the border. "$(TimeInfo)" would be better as "`$`(TimeInfo)" IMO, that way it's syntactically valid.
03:15:34	def-	Varriount: not to load, scrolling is sluggish
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03:16:20	Varriount	def-: Oh, well I don't know why that would be. Doesn't feel sluggish to me.
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03:16:29	flaviu	I don't think the problem is so much in how long it takes to download stuff, but that rendering takes a moment.
03:17:01	def-	Varriount: it's the sidebar with absolute position probably
03:18:31	Varriount	Also, (and I don't know if this is something that should be changed) code examples aren't resized/repositioned with the rest of the layout.
03:18:56	flaviu	The scrollbar uses javascript actually, so dom reflows (I have no idea what I'm talking about) might be it.
03:21:00	Varriount	flaviu: I don't know what that is. I'm just looking at the page in device mode in chrome.
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03:38:11	jferg2010	def-: I did use a JS script to stick the sidebar. I can take a look at whether that's contributing to any sluggishness. I also need to switch to react.min instead of the dev version.
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03:40:09	jferg2010	flaviu: I'll fix the padding and the syntax on the operator procs.
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03:43:16	jferg2010	def-, varriount, flaviu: Do the different options under types to look at procs, etc that use that type or return that type make sense?
03:43:58	flaviu	"Argument to" makes sense
03:44:12	flaviu	Here is another mockup: http://reign-studios.net/philipwitte/nimrod/docs/docs.htm
03:46:53	flaviu	That's by filwit, so you'll probably want to have a chat with him when he shows up. He did the web stuff (except the current docs).
03:49:50	jferg2010	flaviu: Got it. I'll keep an eye out for filwit.
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04:31:31	onionhammer	oops
04:32:24	onionhammer	flaviu, typo: Desciptions
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05:16:05	kashyap_	Hi ... I am trying to implement a nim function that is meant to be invoked from C - http://lpaste.net/123407
05:16:22	kashyap_	It is supposed to copy a "char *" into another
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05:35:09	Varriount	kashyap_: You still there?
05:35:15	kashyap_	yes
05:36:17	Varriount	kashyap_: First off, a cstring is already passed via pointer
05:36:34	kashyap_	ok
05:37:44	Varriount	kashyap_: Have you looked at the generated C code to see how the generated function differs.
05:38:49	kashyap_	I looked at the generated c ....it looked right
05:39:44	kashyap_	This code http://lpaste.net/123407 works fine
05:40:08	kashyap_	it only reads from the input ... the moment I try to write to "o", I get a segfault
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05:42:19	Varriount	kashyap_: This is going
05:42:54	Varriount	Sorry, this is going to sound like a stupid question, but are you sure you're allocating the string?
05:43:32	kashyap_	yup .. I'll paste my c code
05:44:28	kashyap_	I've updated the link with c code --- essentially, I am storing the string on the stack and have validated it with a ccopy
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05:48:16	Varriount	kashyap_: What command line arguments are you using?
05:48:53	kashyap_	nim c --noLinking --os:standalone --deadCodeElim:on --noMain --parallelBuild:1 --gcc.exe:$(GC\ C) --passC:"-I$(NIM)/tinyc/win32/include" --passC:"-w" --passC:"-O2" --passC:"-Wall" --passC:"-Wextra" --passC:"-\ ffreestanding" --passC:"-mcmodel=kernel" --threads:on libmain.nim
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05:53:37	Varriount	Huh. I can't get the procedure to appear in the generated code. dead code elimination seems to be disabling it.
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05:55:11	kashyap_	let me push it to github
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05:59:40	kashyap_	Varriount - https://github.com/ckkashyap/nimc
06:04:14	Varriount	kashyap_: I'm on Windows. Will the makefile work with Mingw?
06:04:56	kashyap_	It's two commands essentially
06:05:08	kashyap_	first - compile nim file libmain.nim
06:05:23	kashyap_	and then gcc main.c nimcache/*.o
06:09:45	kashyap_	new finding ... I get the crash only when declare the parameter with var
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06:20:39	kashyap_	Varriount ... any luck?
06:21:59	Varriount	kashyap_: Yeah.
06:22:38	Varriount	kashyap_: I haven't tried compiling your program, but I was able to get the file to compile with the exported procedure (I had to add --header)
06:22:51	Varriount	I mean, I haven't tried compiling the program from the repo
06:23:07	kashyap_	ok
06:25:48	Varriount	kashyap_: A cstring (as defined in nimbase.h) is a typedef char* NCSTRING;
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06:26:23	kashyap_	ok
06:26:29	Varriount	So when you add 'var', it adds an extra pointer of indirection (which probably shouldn't happen)
06:27:03	kashyap_	hmm ... and without var, I cant compile
06:27:26	kashyap_	I need to write to cstring in the proc
06:27:32	Varriount	kashyap_: What about using a 'ptr char' and a cast?
06:27:46	kashyap_	I could do that
06:27:48	kashyap_	let me try
06:28:01	Varriount	kashyap_: Well, all you need to do is create a pointer to the pointer to the character.
06:28:39	Varriount	kashyap_: This is actually something that needs to be brought up. Exported types need to be stricter with regards to code generation.
06:28:40	kashyap_	you mean ptr uint8 rught
06:28:59	Varriount	kashyap_: Yes?
06:29:23	kashyap_	ptr uint8 instead of ptr char
06:33:15	kashyap_	Thanks Verriount ... your suggestion worked .. you can checkout the code on github .... do you need me to file a bug for the exported types ?
06:34:25	Varriount	kashyap_: Yes. Make a general bug stating that code generation for exported procedures needs to be strict with regards to argument and return types.
06:35:25	kashyap_	ok ... just so I understand, can you explain, once the bug is fixed, what would the generated code look like?
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06:36:36	Varriount	kashyap_: 'var cstring' wouldn't generate an extra '*'
06:36:53	kashyap_	oh okay got it
06:37:30	Varriount	kashyap_: For reference types, the 'var' keyword would do nothing. For object types, it would generate an extra pointer.
06:37:45	kashyap_	right
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06:38:23	Varriount	kashyap_: Of course, my ideas might be wrong (I am by no means an expert in C or C++) so Araq might say differently.
06:38:42	Varriount	If nothing else, how types are exported needs to be cleared up.
06:38:46	rkj-b	Have one more question.
06:38:54	cazov	how about for ptr types?
06:39:03	kashyap_	oh okay ... let me post a note on the forum then
06:39:21	Varriount	rkj-b: Yes?
06:40:16	Varriount	kashyap_: Uh, please don't. The forum is meant for discussion, not issues.
06:40:36	kashyap_	ok
06:40:59	Varriount	kashyap_: Unfortunately, some people don't know this.
06:46:56	rkj-b	Am comparing Nim to Rust. Rust avoids many "pitfalls" by having rather complex protective mechanisms. Now, would it be reasonable to say that nim seeks to avoid "pitfalls" by instead having carefully chosen extra (maybe somewhat high-level) features that avoid the usage of "pitfall" prone techniques???
06:47:31	Varriount	rkj-b: Pretty much.
06:47:46	Maxdamantus	parse.nim(132, 7) Warning: 'l' should not be used as an identifier; may look like '1' (one) [SmallLshouldNotBeUsed]
06:47:49	Maxdamantus	lol
06:48:16	Varriount	Maxdamantus: Well, it's true.
06:48:27	*	Maxdamantus wonders if that app1ies more generally.
06:48:44	Varriount	rkj-b: I can't say what Rust does (I haven't checked out the language much)
06:49:14	Varriount	rkj-b: However Nim generally takes the approach that 'things should be safe be default'
06:49:19	cazov	Maxdamantus, i think clang will also give that warning :]
06:49:24	*	Maxdamantus doesn't get that sense.
06:49:33	*	Maxdamantus gets the sense that Nim is just trying to be convenient, not safe.
06:49:46	Varriount	Maxdamantus: Well, that too.
06:50:08	Maxdamantus	eg, if you write anything generic, it's not actually typechecked until you instantiate it.
06:50:27	Maxdamantus	and when you do instantiate it, you're only checking it against particular types.
06:50:35	Varriount	Maxdamantus: I still don't see how you can typecheck a generic before you instantiate it.
06:50:50	Varriount	Isn't that the whole point of a generic?
06:51:09	Maxdamantus	Varriount: no. It's already been solved by languages like Java and Haskell.
06:51:28	Varriount	Maxdamantus: I've used Java, and I don't see how it solves the problem.
06:51:38	Maxdamantus	The way generics work in Nim is like templates in C++, which isn't exactly a well-thought-out language.
06:51:50	Maxdamantus	it was initially a bunch of hacks some guy thought would make C more convenient.
06:52:17	Varriount	Maxdamantus: I'm assuming type classes don't add anything to this?
06:52:21	Maxdamantus	Varriount: you can't get an error in someone else's code by using bad generic parameter.
06:52:26	Maxdamantus	(in Java)
06:53:26	Varriount	Maxdamantus: Um, what happens instead then?
06:53:48	*	Varriount is still confused
06:53:51	cazov	neither can you in c++*. all your template stuff is in _your_ compilation unit </pedantic>
06:53:52	Maxdamantus	Varriount: you get an error only at your invalid use of the type of thing someone else has provided.
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06:54:41	Maxdamantus	Varriount: proc add3[T](a, b, c: T): T = a + b + c
06:55:06	Maxdamantus	Varriount: add3(4, 5, 6) probably works, because `+` is usually defined for int, int: int
06:55:24	rkj-b	OK. For example, "I" read that in Nim there are statements and such that enable one to do things that in C that could not be done without pointers. (That's the sort of thing "I" mean.)
06:55:30	Maxdamantus	Varriount: but if you do add3("4", "5", "6"), it's going to point to the line inside that add3 proc.
06:55:40	Varriount	Maxdamantus: Oh, so what you're saying is that the error given by the compiler is unclear.
06:55:52	Maxdamantus	Varriount: no. I'm not saying that.
06:56:08	Maxdamantus	Varriount: I'm saying you can't get a type error in code you didn't write.
06:56:37	Maxdamantus	Varriount: the type error in Java would have to be at the bad usage of the add3 function.
06:56:46	Varriount	Maxdamantus: That's what I meant.
06:57:01	Varriount	It's a matter of what kind of traceback the compiler shows.
06:57:11	Maxdamantus	Varriount: not the unapplicability of T=string in some proc call in some expression in some line of someone else's code.
06:57:16	Maxdamantus	It's not.
06:57:51	Varriount	Could you perhaps give me something of a side-by-side comparison?
06:58:27	Maxdamantus	in Haskell, you'd be required to write something like: add3 :: Num a => (a, a, a) -> a; add3 a b c = a + b + c
06:59:04	Maxdamantus	so the type specifies that the + operation exists (by saying the type parameter `a` is in the `Num` class)
06:59:23	Varriount	rkj-b: I don't see exactly what you mean. Since Nim compiles to C, technically C can be converted to Nim.
06:59:31	Maxdamantus	if you didn't have `Num a => ..`, the definition of `add3` would fail to typecheck.
07:00:10	Maxdamantus	but since it does have the `Num a => ..` there, the typecheck will pass and you will never have a static error inside that function.
07:00:57	Maxdamantus	er, that should've been: Num a => (a, a, a) -> a; add3 (a, b, c) = a + b + c
07:01:12	Maxdamantus	(just changed `add3 a b c` to `add3 (a, b, c)`)
07:01:49	Varriount	Maxdamantus: Have you looked at type classes in Nim?
07:01:52	Maxdamantus	that correction should also still have `add3 :: ` at the beginning; accidentally chopped that off.
07:02:03	Maxdamantus	Varriount: yes. Typeclasses help there, but they're not enforced.
07:02:51	Demos	Maxdamantus, yes. Nim's generics sometimes check later than Haskell's. However this adds some flexibility and when type checking does fail the errors are pretty good tbh
07:02:56	Varriount	I would argue though that doing it the Java way causes you to lose information as to what part of the other person's code you are actually violating.
07:03:43	Maxdamantus	That should be irrelevant. The other person's code can change. It can be extremely complex.
07:03:59	Maxdamantus	You should have a type that specifies the constraints.
07:04:00	cazov	it could be argued that you don't need to know that; your type doesn't fulfill the interface that has[n't] been [properly] documented by the vendor
07:04:08	Demos	c++ is one of the only languages that does generic programming in a complete way, and it does pretty good. Aside from having a truly horrendous syntax for it. In fact c++'s templates are strictly MORE powerful than haskell's generics because c++ has variadic generics
07:04:20	Demos	s/strictly//
07:04:29	Varriount	(Which, unfortunately, Nim doesn't have yet)
07:05:07	Demos	Yeah, I want em really bad
07:05:20	Demos	they come up quite a lot in the code I have been writing
07:05:23	Maxdamantus	It's more powerful than Haskell's parametric polymorphism because its type system isn't turing complete (though there are GHC extensions for that)
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07:05:42	Maxdamantus	turing completeness means there's no guarantee the typechecker will finish.
07:06:13	Demos	Maxdamantus, you usually just limit the depth of recursion and then fail if too deep, which seems to work OKJ
07:06:14	Maxdamantus	though that's already the case in Nim because of macros (which I also generally dislike as a language feature)
07:06:38	rkj-b	I mean I read that Nim has statements and read Nim has techniques that make it possible to use less scary pointers and such. When transpiled to C the pointers would presumably reappear. That sounds like a nice way to promote safety. Wonder if it has other features that make it safer than C. Is it, all-in-all generally safer than C?
07:06:42	Maxdamantus	Demos: then it's not turing complete.
07:07:16	Varriount	rkj-b: Well, it has optional run-time checks (these are usually turned off in release mode)
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07:08:02	Demos	Maxdamantus, right, well I think it is specified as turing complete, but implementations limit it. In the same way that in reality computers behave more like a LBA than a turing machine
07:08:10	Varriount	rkj-b: Yes, it's generally safer than C
07:08:18	Maxdamantus	I'm not sure they do normally limit it.
07:08:31	Maxdamantus	Because I think they have a hard time coming up with suitable limits.
07:08:46	Demos	Maxdamantus, they do. Make a infinite recursive template in any C++ compiler
07:09:15	Demos	The compile will fail before you run out of memory
07:09:39	cazov	i think the gcc depth is 500 by default. there's a flag that lets you set it though
07:09:45	Varriount	Nom nom.
07:10:01	*	Varriount eat all of Maxdamantus' memory
07:10:14	Maxdamantus	Well, even if it has a maximum depth of something like that, you can still have it run essentially forever.
07:10:19	Maxdamantus	ie, millions of years.
07:11:57	Varriount	cazov: '-ftemplate'
07:12:09	Varriount	Sorry, '-ftemplate-depth=n'
07:12:13	cazov	yeah
07:12:18	cazov	i had to use that once
07:12:49	Demos	Maxdamantus, I mean you just need an algorithm that has a complexity such that with n=500ish it will take that long, but it is unlikely for a compile to take that long
07:13:41	Demos	and to be honest for most c++ projects template instantiation is not a huge portion of their compile time. The real killer is just reading from disk and parsing the massive amount of code that tends to be in each translation unit.
07:16:15	rkj-b	Sorry to pester. If safety of C is "1" and safety of Rust is "10", what is "x" safety of Nim? Subjective as heck, I know.
07:16:42	Maxdamantus	I'd say about 3.
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07:17:21	Demos	rkj-b, I would say maybe 8 or 9
07:17:22	Varriount	Maxdamantus: Have you taken into account effect tags and region pointers?
07:17:27	Demos	they are both totally memory safe
07:17:29	Maxdamantus	but it largely depends how the C and Nim code at least you're dealing with is written.
07:17:44	Demos	well totally aside from escape hatches :D
07:18:22	Varriount	rkj-b: I can't give any answers, not knowing Rust.
07:18:25	Maxdamantus	Varriount: I don't think they're very significant compared to the generics system.
07:18:49	Maxdamantus	and macros in general
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07:19:26	Demos	I really don't see how the generic system is less safe. Just gives errors perhaps later
07:19:42	Demos	but you will still get a compile error afaict
07:19:59	Varriount	I took 'safety' to mean 'errors the runtime and compile time systems don't catch'
07:20:06	Maxdamantus	No. You can write your generic code wrong and use it and not realise it's not wrong.
07:20:23	Varriount	cazov: Man, the number of options, arguments, and flags GCC takes is phenomonal
07:20:25	Maxdamantus	ie, doesn't have the correct type constraints.
07:20:34	cazov	yes. clang is worse about that
07:21:13	Varriount	cazov: How do they maintain/track them all? There must be some miniature macro system or something in place...
07:21:33	Maxdamantus	.eval proc foo[T](i: string): T = i; echo foo("hello world")
07:21:39	Mimbus	Maxdamantus: hello world
07:21:40	cazov	no idea. at my old job i went throught all of them hunting for size optimizations that might not be enabled even with -Os
07:21:52	Maxdamantus	.eval proc foo[T](i: string): T = i; echo foo(42)
07:21:56	Mimbus	Maxdamantus: eval.nim(4, 8) Error: type mismatch: got (int literal(42))
07:23:33	Varriount	Keep in mind mimbus only prints the first line of error output.
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07:24:41	Maxdamantus	Also, when you do get something wrong in a system using generics, it's preferable to have a single point of error rather than many possible points of error.
07:25:13	Maxdamantus	which is what happens in Haskell, as long as you declare types for definitions occasionally.
07:25:45	*	Maxdamantus usually doesn't bother reading much into the error message in Haskell, just looks for the approximate location.
07:26:31	Maxdamantus	otherwise it's essentially the same as debugging runtime errors using stacktraces.
07:26:48	Maxdamantus	where was the actual error? Maybe in one of these hundreds of positions, maybe not.
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07:30:21	Varriount	Hi untitaker
07:38:59	Varriount	cazov: Size optimizations? Usually it's performance optimizations that people want.
07:39:18	cazov	deeply embedded
07:39:48	cazov	like, we could only debug one TU at a time on the target because our memory was that limited :]
07:48:44	rkj-b	Too old to learn Emacs or Vim. For PCLinuxOS, would Geany, Scite, Notepad++ w/ Wine, Kate, or (If I MUST spend bucks) Sublime Text, be among the best answers? (Hate Eclipse.)
07:50:04	Demos	I think someone here has a good Kate syntax definition
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08:07:44	Varriount	rkj-b: Last I checked, Sublime Text was free-ish
08:08:29	Varriount	Of course, I maintain the Sublime Text plugin for Nim (currently undergoing major refactoring)
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08:13:13	rkj-b	I know Sublime Text "free-ish" but am too damn honest. I'm really wondering which one is the "best". There are many considerations; for example Kate could birth a KDevelope offspring. Sublime Text sure sounds smart, though.
08:28:33	Maxdamantus	https://gist.github.com/Maxdamantus/08b6cdf7fc02b325e273
08:28:38	Maxdamantus	lots of generics and tuples.
08:33:28	Maxdamantus	.eval type T = distinct proc(); var a = T(proc() = discard); a()
08:33:32	Mimbus	Maxdamantus: Error: execution of an external program failed; rerun with --parallelBuild:1 to see the error message
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10:48:33	Araq	Maxdamantus: when people talk about "safety" they usually mean "memory safety" or other aspects that are mostly concerned with runtime behaviour.
10:48:49	Araq	that nim's generics are lazy has nothing to do whatsoever with this question
10:49:10	Araq	I know this "feature" bothers you but please stay honest.
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10:54:00	Araq	and proc foo[T: Addable](x, y: T): T = x + y is not the best solution in the world either. With that you essentially write down the algorithm *twice*
10:55:25	Araq	now if it's all inferred like in Haskell that's pretty good indeed. But Nim embraces overloading and unrestricted overloading within a Hindley–Milner type system is NP complete.
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11:07:41	Maxdamantus	Araq: that's what safety would come down to in a language like C (assuming limited use of the CPP) or Java.
11:07:57	Maxdamantus	Things like macro systems can be unsafe if they produce invalid (non-compiling) code.
11:10:28	Maxdamantus	You could always just say that Java is completely safe because you can capture pretty much any error (I think there are a few that you can't .. maybe OutOfMemoryException)
11:15:37	Maxdamantus	btw, I added the relevant .isNil checks for tuple nodes' PTypes in the uses I could find.
11:17:13	Maxdamantus	There's an error intentionally thrown in evalffi.nim when packing anonymous tuples which I've only added a # XXX comment to.
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11:40:39	Araq	so when I use proc foo(a, b: int): int = a+b that is a type that is fuzzy, see dependent typing. Does that mean it's unsafe? Is Haskell then unsafe too?
11:41:17	Araq	that's not what people usually mean when they ask about "safety"
11:41:35	Maxdamantus	The legal uses of that definition are completely described in the type in Haskell.
11:42:10	Maxdamantus	That's not necessarily the case in dependent typing, and that's the main source of discomfort for me.
11:42:46	Maxdamantus	in Agda and Idris—haven't really looked into others—the source of the definition is also essentially part of the interface.
11:43:43	Maxdamantus	Num a => (a, a) -> a
11:44:03	Maxdamantus	The + you refer to in the definition in Haskell will come directly from the Num instance.
11:44:41	Maxdamantus	which is next determined at the use of the definition.
11:47:51	Araq	"that's what safety would come down to in a language like C (assuming limited use of the CPP) or Java." No, not at all.
11:48:55	Maxdamantus	A demonstration of what happens in Haskell might look like: proc foo[A](inst: Num[A], a, b: A): A = inst.add(a, b)
11:49:34	Maxdamantus	where: type Num[A] = object add: proc(a, b: A): A; ..
11:49:45	Araq	I know how it works in Haskell thanks
11:49:59	Maxdamantus	Okay.
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11:51:23	Maxdamantus	You can't actually represent all of that like that in Nim though (even restricted to things of kind *), because you'd need rank-two types.
11:51:54	*	Maxdamantus doesn't really like rank-two types.
11:52:36	Araq	Varriount: btw your musings that 'var cstring' should be 'cstring' are completely off ;-)
11:52:51	Araq	and 'var ref' cannot be 'ref' either.
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11:55:45	*	randomwalk wonders why fishing is called trolling...
11:56:26	Maxdamantus	Misspelling of "trawling"?
11:57:19	*	randomwalk thinks the waters are chum...the ignore list failing...
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12:02:22	Araq	Maxdamantus: Haskell doesn't prevent buffer overflows at compile-time, ergo Haskell is safer than C thanks to its *runtime* checks. Safety is about *runtime* aspects of a program. Your definition focusses on compiletime aspects and is as such completely off.
12:02:47	Maxdamantus	Safety is about catching errors early.
12:02:55	Maxdamantus	eg, before you use a definition.
12:03:16	Maxdamantus	in Haskell the definition is checked for all possible insantiations.
12:03:28	Maxdamantus	before you actually try to instantiate it.
12:04:31	Araq	and yet you will not find a *single* safety criticial hotfix thanks to this feature of Nim, because the runtime is not affected whatsoever.
12:05:15	Araq	maybe we need to distinguish between safety and security properly though
12:06:46	Maxdamantus	I think the focus on being able to catch runtime errors would be more of a security thing.
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12:07:52	Maxdamantus	high security would mean you could be given some object and call some method on it knowing it's not going to crash the system or open /proc/self/mem and write weird stuff to it.
12:08:09	Maxdamantus	both of which are offered by Java.
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12:15:42	Maxdamantus	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/security/Permissions.html
12:17:19	Araq	well "memory safety" is a term, "memory security" is not.
12:17:33	Maxdamantus	I don't think memory was mentioned in the question.
12:17:38	Maxdamantus	it was just safety.
12:17:57	Araq	when people talk about safety they mostly mean memory safety
12:18:05	Araq	especially in the context of Rust
12:18:39	Maxdamantus	Rust is also quite good at the other meanings of safety afaik
12:18:49	Maxdamantus	well, the other elements of it.
12:19:02	Maxdamantus	and they're relevant, because it has things like generics.
12:19:31	Araq	and that would be my next issue with your line of argumentation
12:19:44	Araq	for your unsafe generics are worse than no generics at all!
12:19:48	Araq	*for you
12:20:17	Maxdamantus	No.
12:20:27	Maxdamantus	For me unsafe generics are less safe than safe generics.
12:20:40	Araq	ok, good.
12:20:55	Araq	can't argue against that ;-)
12:21:04	Maxdamantus	I think unsafe generics encourage better safety than no generics, for certain tasks.
12:21:46	Maxdamantus	https://gist.github.com/Maxdamantus/9184ff4b72017a8de0cc
12:22:01	Maxdamantus	This is particularly unsafe, because Go doesn't have generics.
12:30:40	Maxdamantus	`interface{}` would be the analogue of `void *` in C.
12:31:21	Maxdamantus	though logically it doesn't represent a pointer.
12:31:26	Araq	and yet it's safer than C
12:31:38	Maxdamantus	Yes.
12:31:39	Araq	because it produces a runtime check
12:35:59	Maxdamantus	Better late than never.
12:36:43	Maxdamantus	or better then than later, when the error might have already caused undesired code to be executed.
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12:45:34	*	Maxdamantus has thought a bit about a dynamic language where everything is completely structurally typed.
12:47:55	Araq	proc `$`*[T: object](x: T): string =
12:47:56	Araq	result = ""
12:47:58	Araq	for name, value in fieldpairs(x):
12:47:59	Araq	result.add(" " & $value)
12:48:36	Araq	is it really so hard to accept that I'm not thrilled by using 'T: ObjectWhereEveryFieldTypeHasToString'
12:49:03	Araq	where ObjectWhereEveryFieldTypeHasToString is a generic that essentially repeats $'s body?
12:50:00	Maxdamantus	No. It's not hard to accept. You just don't consider safety as important as me.
12:50:12	Maxdamantus	s/as/as as/
12:54:51	Araq	btw this is safer than Java as toString in Java belongs to Object and all you can do is to override it to throw a runtime error
12:55:54	Maxdamantus	You can implement an alternative mechanism in Java.
12:55:58	Maxdamantus	but it will be uglier than Nim.
12:56:08	Maxdamantus	Well, Java probably already is.
12:56:24	Maxdamantus	at least in terms of syntactic clutter.
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13:10:56	Maxdamantus	anyway, if you find static typing restrictive, you could always just use plain dynamic typing :p
13:11:10	*	Maxdamantus sleeps.
13:12:11	Araq	yeah, and when I like to take a bath nothing else but the ocean works for me
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13:22:15	Jehan_	:)
13:22:52	Jehan_	I like static typing also, but I do tend to draw the line where the type-checker becomes a full-fledged theorem prover.
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13:30:39	filwit	hmm.. I'm trying to get 'parallel' working in this code: https://gist.github.com/PhilipWitte/81db3972b6dcee092e0f
13:31:02	filwit	but i keep getting error: (35, 19) Error: cannot prove: i <= len(people) + -1
13:31:27	filwit	it works if I remove the parallel and just use spawn/sync
13:31:55	filwit	what is hanging the disjoint checking up in this code?
13:32:49	Araq	well people.len is not known to be 20 by the compiler
13:33:24	filwit	so what are my options then?
13:33:25	Araq	'parallel' also tries to prove your array bounds
13:33:46	Araq	for i in 0 .. <people.len:
13:33:55	Araq	spawn people[i].greet
13:34:19	filwit	yeah... why am i not doing that in the first place... gah was thinking wrong
13:34:51	filwit	i wanted to spawn only two threads.. not one for each.. my brain this morning is not good. Thanks though.
13:38:47	filwit	Araq: btw, using `for p in people:` and `for i in 0 .. <people.len:` does not work, but `for i in 0 .. people.high:` does... I'm sure you're probably aware of that limitation right now, just wanted to put it out there in case you weren't
13:39:51	filwit	sweet though.. using parallel prevents the string copy :)
13:42:39	Araq	no, report it
13:44:16	filwit	really? Are strings special or something here?
13:44:49	filwit	i mean, i can totally hose the program now by modifying friend.name.. but i expected that.
13:45:57	filwit	ohh... wait sorry, you're talking about the 'people.high' vs '<people.len' thing... gotit, will report
13:46:41	Jehan_	filwit: Strings still sit in the main thread's heap, so it's not safe to do anything with them that causes reallocation.
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13:47:08	Araq	how can you modify friend.name?
13:47:13	filwit	Jehan_: yeah that's what I assumed was going to happen really.
13:47:25	filwit	i just wanted to prove it mostly
13:47:44	filwit	plus i want to monitor the ref-counts and see what's going on
13:47:56	Araq	er ... report this hole program. why doesn't it copy?
13:48:12	Araq	you're using 'ref objects' that's not safe
13:48:17	filwit	idk, it copies without the parallel (using spawn)
13:48:39	filwit	using ref-object's not safe with parallel/spawn?
13:48:51	Araq	well it needs to copy
13:49:03	Araq	you can cast to 'ptr' to avoid the copy
13:49:37	Araq	but then you're on your own so that's fine
13:49:59	filwit	so should I report the 'people.high' in a separate issue then, or is that already known?
13:50:10	Araq	no, that's another bug :P
13:50:16	filwit	k
13:50:23	Araq	thanks for testing it btw
13:50:34	Araq	it's high time this thing gets more tests
13:52:01	filwit	no problem.. though now i probably need to fix my raytracer.. i think it's relying on this bug now (it used to cast Pixmap, which is a ref-array, to ptr to process each region but i discovered i didn't need that anymore and thought it was a feature :P)
13:52:47	Araq	when you use Nim's parameter passing immutability it doesn't need to copy
13:53:04	Araq	but this immutability stops at 'ref'
13:53:24	filwit	that's why i said Pixmap was a ref-array
13:53:35	Araq	deep immutability for 'ref' would really help in the language
13:53:56	filwit	yes i completely agree
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13:54:52	Araq	but it's hard to do and for your example you can always do people[i][]
13:54:54	filwit	i mean.. i have kinda relying on the fact that that doesn't exist, but it really doesn't make too much sense to be able to modify components of a ref-type that's passed when you can't do that to a regular object
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13:55:18	Araq	well the compiler itself uses it everywhere
13:55:41	filwit	Araq: so make [] an "unsafe" operator on objects? or just warn about it at least.
13:55:53	Araq	and often what starts as "immutable" ends up as "mutable" for efficiency
13:56:24	filwit	we basically have the feature now anyways with auto-dereference
13:56:42	filwit	it just means you can't declare things as ref-object though..
13:56:55	Araq	no, we don't have this feature
13:57:14	filwit	er.. i just tested it a few days ago.. was it killed off for some reason?
13:57:41	Araq	when do person[] in your example, the thing 'friend' points to is still *mutable*
13:57:53	Araq	it's still not deep
13:58:08	Araq	(autoderef is still in the language, yes)
13:58:10	filwit	ah, right i see
13:59:21	filwit	so (about deep immutability).. can't you make [] unsafe for objects and add it in that way? What other problems are there that make the feature challenging to implement? Curious.
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14:00:52	Araq	I don't understand what you're saying
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14:01:18	Araq	[] is not unsafe for 'ref object' (ignoring the 'nil' issue)
14:01:25	filwit	you said deep-immut was hard cause of `people[0][]`
14:01:41	Araq	no it's hard because it is hard
14:01:47	filwit	k
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14:02:25	Araq	it's hard because you have 2 types that act like 1 type depending on the context.
14:03:26	Araq	it's time dependent, which is exactly what type systems are not very good at modelling since type system model invariants
14:05:43	Araq	we planned to have '!ref' for a mutable ref, and the other ref default to "deep immutability"
14:06:29	filwit	wouldn't that just be `var ref` instead?
14:06:38	Araq	no, it is not
14:07:04	Araq	proc setHeadofList(x: var ref T) = x = root
14:07:24	Araq	I don't understand why people have problems with what 'var ref' means...
14:07:42	Araq	'var ref' allows you to write the pointer
14:07:44	Jehan_	I have always wondered, why, unlike for the Pascal family of languages, the `var` comes after the colon in Nim.
14:08:05	filwit	Araq: yes i understand now
14:08:06	Araq	'!ref' would allow you to write *via* the pointer
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14:09:31	Araq	maybe we can still hack 'immutableRef T' into the language for 'parallel' support ...
14:09:47	filwit	Araq: you've obviously given this some thought and understand it's problems more than me, so it's fine. Thanks for the explanation.
14:10:06	Araq	Jehan_: because it obviously belongs to the type. Ada uses 'inout' after the colon too.
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14:10:26	Jehan_	Hmm, I think that's one thing that you can argue either way.
14:10:56	Araq	proc someview(x: var T): var S
14:11:03	Jehan_	I see why you'd say it belongs to the type, but one could also make a convincing argument that it's part of the calling convention for the parameter.
14:11:16	Araq	see my someview example
14:11:19	filwit	Araq: one thing though.. if you where going to add in `immutableRef`.. why not just default `ref` to that, fix the compiler, and make `mutableRef` instead?
14:11:21	Jehan_	I.e. part of the procedure's rather than the argument's type.
14:11:53	Araq	filwit: that breaks every nim program out there
14:11:58	Araq	not just the compiler
14:12:06	filwit	so? we're not at 1.0 :P
14:12:22	Araq	so? we still have not infinite resources
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14:12:48	Araq	either way, this needs a good migration path
14:13:05	Araq	and it's not easy to solve:
14:13:31	Araq	proc foo(): JsonNode # mutable or not? --> caller decides
14:14:24	Araq	it's not like we have a good design and it's just required to update every Nim project out there
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14:14:41	Araq	we don't even have a solid design that's proven to work
14:14:51	filwit	meh, just shelf it for Nim 2.0 far from now
14:15:19	filwit	so one distant date you can break things and people can adapt during that major junction
14:16:33	filwit	i agree.. i mean it would be great to get everything right up-front before 1.0.. but that's not realistic, obviously. So just fix things up and say if things do eventually change, they will happen at some major junction far down the road
14:16:54	filwit	"fix things up" == "make things stable"
14:17:14	filwit	(stable meaning remove bugs.. damn my words are confusing right now, lol)
14:17:38	Araq	I think it's far more important to communicate that we will break compat to get a better language, but we will do so with a very good migration strategy
14:17:59	Araq	so nothing like Python 2 vs 3 should happen
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14:18:17	Araq	and if that means we will have {.version: 2.0.} in the language, so be it
14:18:37	Araq	(language version pragma)
14:18:47	filwit	yes i agree with that. (idk about the Python analogy.. never used it much)
14:19:03	Jehan_	One concept I've been toying with is objects that can alternate between being immutable and mutable at runtime. Not sure if that is an idea that has a future, but it may be interesting.
14:19:23	Araq	Jehan_: that's what 'shallow' already gives us, to some extend
14:20:27	Jehan_	No, that's not really what I'm thinking of. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
14:21:01	Jehan_	Basically, such an object would support (let's call them) "freeze" and "thaw" operations.
14:21:24	Jehan_	It could be shared while in a frozen state, and could only be thawed while not shared.
14:21:56	BlaXpirit	i smell rust
14:21:58	filwit	so it's kinda like Rust's concurrent borrow checking system, only more explicit?
14:22:14	Jehan_	filwit: There's no static checking going on there, really.
14:22:20	BlaXpirit	lol how can something be more explicit than Rust?
14:22:29	Jehan_	So, not at all like Rust.
14:23:06	filwit	Jehan_: i see, so 'thaw' would runtime check for sharing (like ref-counting thread use)
14:23:14	Jehan_	Pretty much.
14:23:28	Jehan_	Note that it also has applications for single-threaded use.
14:23:44	Jehan_	E.g. to make sure that a collection does not change while iterating over it.
14:24:17	Jehan_	That's in fact where I got the idea from (an old Eiffel library that implemented this via preconditions).
14:25:10	filwit	idk, static-checking that seems more appealing, honestly
14:25:17	filwit	(for iteration i mean)
14:25:37	Jehan_	filwit: This is about things that cannot necessarily be type-checked.
14:25:56	Jehan_	Or rather, where the opportunity cost of type-checking greatly exceeds the gains.
14:26:25	Araq	and then there is also my "write tracking" algorithm, which I can simplify and will give us roughly the same with not much code breakage
14:26:49	Jehan_	In general, people tend to overestimate how much type-checking buys them once you get past a certain point and hit diminishing returns.
14:26:52	Araq	I think that's a good route to take for 'parallel'
14:27:01	Jehan_	Except for "if this software bugs out people will die" kind of situations.
14:27:43	Jehan_	Araq: Yeah, but, there are still the usual aliasing problems.
14:28:18	Jehan_	I've started looking at what I described above because aliasing doesn't cause any inherent problems for the scheme.
14:28:25	filwit	Araq: have you written anything about your write-tracking? I would love to read it if you have.
14:28:43	Araq	well I wrote an old blog post about it
14:29:04	Araq	http://nim-lang.org/blog/writetracking.html
14:29:34	gokr	I think I might end up giving a talk on Nim at the Stockholm Google Tech group meeting.
14:29:37	filwit	k, thanks
14:29:59	filwit	gokr: nice! :)
14:30:13	gokr	There will be a Rust and Go presentation too ;)
14:30:26	Araq	filwit: note that one can do it in a significantly simpler way
14:30:46	Araq	I think.
14:30:56	filwit	Araq: i'll keep that in mind.
14:31:03	Jehan_	Hmm, I guess I may have to write my post about constructors after all.
14:31:30	Araq	Jehan_: when you only track "writes something via its passed arguments" then an alias analysis is not required
14:31:50	filwit	gokr: i think we should make it an unwritten rule to always print-out and wear a paper crown when giving Nim presentations :P
14:32:08	Jehan_	Araq: I'm interested in a bit more than that (for my own purposes).
14:32:11	gokr	Has this rule been followed earlier? :)
14:32:28	filwit	lol no.. but never too late to start!
14:32:44	gokr	I can wear a crown, no problem. :)
14:33:01	filwit	(i'm mostly just joking.. but I think it would be a fun thing to do if I ever talked about Nim publicly)
14:33:28	gokr	If you design it - I will wear it. Make it so that I can print it on my color printer - cut it out, and then tape it together.
14:33:36	filwit	i mean.. the logo is a crown! it's would be so tempting to do, lol
14:33:47	gokr	I am with ya, all the way.
14:33:50	filwit	gokr: ha! awesome, you're on :)
14:34:36	gokr	And oh, can you give me a better logo to give them for this page? https://sites.google.com/site/stockholmgtug/2015-03-25
14:34:52	gokr	It even says "nimrod".
14:35:18	filwit	yes, I just gave def and flaviu all the artwork and the put it somewhere... one sec
14:37:01	filwit	gokr: well here's the logo... but we need one for a white background it seems: https://github.com/nim-lang/assets/blob/master/Art/logo-simple.png
14:37:48	gokr	Yeah... that doesn't fly on white.
14:38:04	filwit	yeah i'm making you one for a white-background. One sec.
14:38:24	gokr	No problem, I am going to go fetch my plate with lunch :)
14:38:40	dom96	hrm, I might add something to the forum which detects when a thread gets lots of referrals from a certain website and notifies us somehow. Totally missed this for example and it got the linked forum thread over 500 hits in a single day: http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/2y0izv/nim_forum_discusses_rust/
14:38:47	*	aidanh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
14:40:05	filwit	dom96: just check Google Analytics more
14:40:23	dom96	others might be interested in this information too though
14:40:45	filwit	you can make GA information public
14:40:57	filwit	they have tools for that.. idk much about it though
14:41:00	dom96	i'd rather not.
14:41:29	filwit	no i mean you don't make the whole thing public.. there's just tools which you can use that expose specific parts
14:42:05	flaviu	dom96: Another potential feature is to put a list of used IPs on user's profile pages for admins.
14:42:27	dom96	yeah. Tons of features need to be implemented.
14:42:33	dom96	Most importantly email notifications
14:42:38	dom96	and password reset
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14:43:29	filwit	not to mention my front-end additions.. which i've been completely putting off
14:43:35	dom96	I wonder if we should have banned runvnc, it seems that r/rust mods would have done so.
14:44:39	flaviu	dom96: Haha, nice: http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/2y0izv/nim_forum_discusses_rust/cp790j6
14:44:50	dom96	;)
14:45:08	filwit	dom96: a ban is too much, IMO.. it would be better if you could just change his title's post and edit his posts with an "this behavior will not be tolerated" message
14:45:18	filwit	post's title***
14:45:36	gokr	I dunno, IMHO (and its mine) web forums (normally anonymous etc) tend to ... invite to these "not so polite" posts.
14:46:03	flaviu	runvnc isn't anonymous though.
14:46:21	gokr	In what way is he not?
14:46:36	gokr	I can't see his name or email.
14:46:42	*	gokr fetching lunch...
14:46:43	flaviu	https://github.com/runvnc
14:47:06	gokr	Ok, fine. But that takes research to find.
14:47:50	Araq	dom96: I cannot see why a ban would have been justified
14:48:01	filwit	i don't like the idea of banning people just because they're abrasive.. at least not on first offense. Just change the title (if you can), or delete it. Then warn him in private.
14:48:27	flaviu	filwit's approach seems like the best idea.
14:49:06	dom96	What would you change the title of the forum thread to?
14:49:49	Araq	hum? "Rust pwnage"? you want to censor *that*?
14:49:53	*	vezzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
14:50:09	Araq	maybe pwnage doesn't mean what I think it does
14:50:33	dom96	yeah, it's not that bad IMO.
14:52:13	dom96	His post would be far better if he didn't write "LOL" at the end of each paragraph.
14:52:48	dom96	I do feel like we need to come up with concrete guidelines of what is and what isn't ok.
14:52:56	Araq	so now you want to censor "LOL"?
14:53:09	dom96	I don't want to censor anything.
14:53:24	flaviu	At this point, just leaving it be is probably the best solution. It'll drop off the front page soon.
14:53:37	filwit	honestly, i think even with his title and post, our responses did just fine in addressing this as-is
14:53:37	dom96	At this point, yes.
14:53:45	dom96	Question is what do we do in the future if a similar post shows up?
14:53:58	Araq	we'll continue to use our brains :P
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14:54:14	dom96	fair enough :P
14:54:27	gokr	IMHO its not about censoring, its about being nice or not.
14:54:45	ekarlso	http://185.56.186.94/#/
14:54:52	ekarlso	some new stuff deployed..
14:55:08	Araq	ekarlso: can I write a 'while true' loop now?
14:55:09	ekarlso	adding cc / version switch in a bit
14:55:12	ekarlso	Araq: haha
14:55:14	ekarlso	yeah
14:55:24	Araq	we'll see about that
14:55:38	filwit	flaviu: do i have push-rights to the nim-lang/assets repo?
14:56:01	flaviu	filwit: yep
14:56:07	filwit	k, thanks :)
14:56:21	Araq	"Output too long..."
14:56:32	ekarlso	:P
14:56:34	Araq	well but it didn't show a single line of output!
14:56:44	flaviu	Output playpen: timeout triggered!
14:56:49	dom96	ekarlso: Seems that "devel" overlaps some other text.
14:56:50	ekarlso	if your output is longer then 1k lines
14:56:57	ekarlso	it stops you :p
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14:57:21	Araq	er .. that's not how you prevent endless loops
14:57:30	Araq	the loop doesn't have to produce output
14:57:42	flaviu	Araq: That just prevents sending GBs back to the client.
14:57:53	flaviu	"Output playpen: timeout triggered!" prevents infinate loops.
14:58:00	Araq	ok ok, good
14:58:02	ekarlso	Araq: yeah I know..
14:58:06	Araq	gotta go, bbl
14:58:32	dom96	ekarlso: Very nice.
14:58:39	flaviu	ekarlso: API seems simple enough too. POST /runs, {"version":"devel","cc":"tcc","input":"while true:\n discard"}
14:58:52	ekarlso	flaviu: it is :p
14:58:58	dom96	ekarlso: might be better to just have one output box though
14:59:11	ekarlso	dom96: well got some ideas around that :p
14:59:12	dom96	For smaller screens you have to notice that it goes below your viewport
14:59:24	dom96	I would put it on the right
14:59:28	ekarlso	dom96: the idea is that anything that's not latest will be "hidden"
14:59:34	ekarlso	then have a scroll bar
14:59:39	ekarlso	so newest is always on top
14:59:39	flaviu	I like the multiple boxes, but wouldn't adding the output to the top be better?
14:59:47	flaviu	That way the most recent command is always on top.
15:00:08	ekarlso	patches are always welcome :p
15:00:14	dom96	hehe
15:00:16	dom96	Fair enough
15:00:38	ekarlso	got some code on my macbook also to allow options to be passed
15:00:55	dom96	I agree, it's easy to ask for things to be changed but the code is open source so we should just make the changes ourselves. I've been there :)
15:00:58	ekarlso	so like {"options": {"cc": "tcc", "checks": "off"}}
15:01:10	dom96	ekarlso: It uses jester right?
15:01:14	ekarlso	dom96: yeah :p
15:01:21	dom96	ekarlso: yay cool
15:01:25	ekarlso	https://github.com/ekarlso/nim-playpen < is the api
15:01:33	dom96	ekarlso: Now that you've had time to play around with Jester, what do you think of it?
15:01:44	ekarlso	dom96: it's pretty ok :P
15:01:56	ekarlso	still could have better support for stuff like auth etc :P
15:02:08	^aurora^	hello …
15:02:12	dom96	ekarlso: It's not even at version 0.1 yet :P
15:02:20	dom96	ekarlso: but please create issues on github for the stuff you want
15:02:23	*	aidanh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
15:02:37	^aurora^	i would like to ask if there's somewhere a little "tutorial" available of what exactly tainted strings are …
15:02:41	^aurora^	on this page for example:
15:02:42	ekarlso	dom96: eh, you are allowed too to do it :p
15:02:43	^aurora^	http://nim-lang.org/manual.html#taint-mode
15:02:58	^aurora^	it just says: "it is safe here to output the name without any input validation" …
15:03:02	dom96	ekarlso: to do what?
15:03:05	^aurora^	but it does not say, what it prevents :)
15:03:12	ekarlso	dom96: create issues on stuff _you_ want ;P
15:03:24	dom96	ekarlso: I don't need to, I own the project, it's all in my head
15:03:39	ekarlso	dom96: ah, you meant for jester :p
15:03:41	BlaXpirit	^aurora^, it prevents echo name
15:03:41	ekarlso	ok
15:03:43	dom96	^aurora^: It's only activated when you compile with --taintMode:on
15:04:29	dom96	ekarlso: yeah :)
15:04:39	flaviu	ekarlso: I'm not going to send a PR because I haven't tested locally, but `run in results.slice().reverse()` in https://github.com/ekarlso/nim-play-frontend/blob/master/src/app/runs/index.html#L42 should work.
15:04:58	dom96	^aurora^: So when you get data from stdin.readLine it's a TaintedString because it comes from an unknown source, the string could contain anything.
15:05:33	dom96	^aurora^: When taint mode is on, the compiler makes sure you are aware of this by making you explicitly convert it to a string.
15:06:19	^aurora^	dom96: mmm … ok i understand. so it's for example to prevent SQL injections or shell-injections and such kind of things?
15:06:20	*	aidanh joined #nim
15:06:27	dom96	^aurora^: Exactly.
15:06:36	^aurora^	dom96: thanks!
15:06:44	dom96	^aurora^: Of course converting it to a string is not all you need to do in that case.
15:06:51	flaviu	I'd hope it isn't your primary defense against SQL injections.
15:06:53	dom96	You should have some sort of escape procedure.
15:07:18	dom96	the db_* (db_sqlite etc) modules provide a slightly different mechanism for this though.
15:08:48	^aurora^	dom96: yes … i understand this. so it's just to make the developer aware of possible security implications. because i could also just use "normal" strings and validate / escape them
15:09:08	dom96	^aurora^: Precisely.
15:09:24	^aurora^	cool. thanks very much :) …
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15:10:10	gokr	filwit: New logo comijng? :)
15:10:21	gokr	filwit: New logo coming? ;)
15:10:46	*	davidhq joined #nim
15:10:55	filwit	gokr: yes i'm working on it now. I just need to remake the mono-chrome version cause I guess I didn't save that one before. Almost finished.
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15:16:02	gokr	My presentation will be the 25/3, about 40 minutes. After Rust and then Go after me.
15:16:23	gokr	It will not be only about Nim, I will try to mix it up with what we are doing with it. People like 3D :)
15:16:39	gokr	But it usually draws about 50 people at least, and I think they may record.
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15:17:14	filwit	gokr: https://github.com/nim-lang/assets/blob/master/Art/logo-monochrome-black.png
15:17:37	filwit	gokr: there's a white and blackSVG version in the parent director as well
15:17:53	filwit	gokr: if you want something specific, let me know.
15:18:23	gokr	Ok, yeah it works. :) One could imagine taking the one from the homepage but "cutting it out" as a "plaquet" with rounded corners or something. Like a banner.
15:19:27	*	aidanh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
15:19:38	filwit	gokr: I can make that if you prefer it that way. Want it?
15:19:42	gokr	In fact, if you take "new-design.png" and just cut it out.
15:20:02	filwit	sure
15:20:04	gokr	The only black version looked a bit... "dry".
15:20:21	filwit	np :)
15:20:25	dom96	gokr: you're making a presentation? where?
15:20:33	flaviu	gokr: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nim-lang/assets/master/Art/logo-github.png
15:20:42	gokr	25/3, GTUG Stockholm.
15:20:49	dom96	filwit: I like that.
15:21:15	gokr	Hmmm, well... I want the Nim name + and rounded corners :)
15:21:16	dom96	gokr: cool
15:21:49	gokr	I mean *with* the Nim name.
15:21:56	filwit	dom96: :) (ps. We've made it an unofficial rule to wear Nim crowns when giving presentations :-D)
15:22:03	gokr	dom96: I presented there before, its a good crowd.
15:22:13	filwit	dom96: paper cutout crowns i mean
15:22:27	gokr	Yeah, filwit will produce a paper cutout for me.
15:22:49	filwit	(just joking about the unofficial rule bit, but I think it's fun either way)
15:24:29	filwit	gah, i need to clean up this assets folder.. some of this artwork is older iterations of the logo and shouldn't be used
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15:35:29	filwit	gokr: https://github.com/nim-lang/assets/blob/master/Art/logo-withBackground.png
15:35:30	gokr	filwit: Something like: http://files.krampe.se/nim-banner.png
15:35:56	gokr	Ah, yes, yours is better.
15:36:42	filwit	gokr: please don't use that (the one you linked too).. that's exactly why I need to remove that 'new-design' thing.. it's old (notice it doesn't have all the effects, like white rim)
15:36:51	gokr	yes, I realized
15:37:28	flaviu	filwit: btw, what's happening with the shadow on the i's dot?
15:38:14	filwit	flaviu: you've got a good eye or your screens brightness is turned way up.. didn't notice that. Let me take a look.
15:38:47	gokr	filwit: Is this ok? http://files.krampe.se/nim-logo2.png
15:39:01	gokr	I can send him that, need to run now.
15:39:07	dom96	filwit: I like that rule :)
15:39:41	filwit	gokr: that's fine, though personally I would have left in all the padding, but maybe you need it at the resolution. Either way it's fine.
15:39:49	filwit	dom96: ;)
15:39:57	gokr	filwit: Cool, later
15:40:48	dom96	I would really love to get a Nim t-shirt. You guys know of any good companies that could make some Nim t-shirts?
15:43:00	ekarlso	lumx is pretty cool for UI
15:43:05	ekarlso	material design ftw
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15:48:01	TEttinger	dom96: shapeways
15:48:15	TEttinger	make the Nim logo in brass
15:48:35	TEttinger	who needs a t-shirt when you have the Nim Crown
15:49:53	dom96	hah
15:50:03	filwit	flaviu: i fixed the visual issue with the Nim 'i'. Nice catch, thanks.
15:50:22	ekarlso	I think honestly
15:50:29	ekarlso	I will switch packages too to use lumx
15:51:22	filwit	dom96: just pick any of the many online printing companies out there.
15:51:53	dom96	filwit: I'm sure there are many. Question is which one is the best and can deliver to the UK in a reasonable amount of time.
15:52:03	filwit	dom96: the main thing is how the shirts will fit, and the quality.. but that all depends on each person's body type and preferences.
15:52:14	BlaXpirit	lol just walking around in a crown
15:53:17	BlaXpirit	and no problem with fitting
15:53:46	filwit	ekarlso: lumx looks pretty cool.. i just usually don't like the current trend of bolting on JS as a front-end UI language.
15:55:49	filwit	I'm going to need to make the crown cutout in two sections so it can be printed on anyone's printer
15:56:48	dom96	filwit: ooh, you're actually going to make this? :O
15:56:59	filwit	of course!
15:57:07	dom96	Awesome!
15:57:16	dom96	I may just go into my lectures wearing it :P
15:57:24	filwit	hell yeah!
15:57:25	filwit	lol
15:58:16	filwit	makes me want to give a talk on Nim now :) We have the best logo for it.. other people just wear shirts be we have a good excuse to wear silly hats. it's brilliant, lol
15:58:54	dom96	:D
15:59:27	filwit	problem is printing it is going to be a pain for most people... i should two version: one anyone can print with a few steps, and one you have to take to kinkos (cause it'll be longer than a single sheet of paper)
16:00:04	filwit	there's no way you can accurately do two-sided printing (without a lot of drift) on most household printers
16:00:52	filwit	so we're going to have to like fill the whole page with gold on one side, black on the other,then print over that with a white outline so you can see where to cut.
16:01:13	flaviu	filwit: Sounds like more people need to get duplex printers :)
16:01:33	gokr_	go go :)
16:02:40	filwit	wait gokr: is your talk today? I don't think I can get this done in the next 15 mins...
16:03:20	filwit	i can try though
16:03:44	flaviu	Looks like it's 2015-03-25.
16:03:57	filwit	oh, okay nevermind
16:03:59	gokr_	yeah
16:04:15	gokr_	no hurry
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16:09:31	filwit	Araq, dom96: I've decided I don't really need vertical tabs in Aporia right now.. I mean, you can only really manage so many tabs at once, and a file-browser basically works for browsing a project.
16:09:58	dom96	filwit: that's good
16:10:25	filwit	i'll add de-indent on backspace eventually though, but I'm mostly going to just work on my own project now (and fix up the forums)
16:11:58	ekarlso	flaviu: :P
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16:22:31	BlaXpirit	guys, umm you're talking about printers
16:22:35	BlaXpirit	u cant just print gold
16:22:50	BlaXpirit	but there is gold/shiny hard paper
16:23:14	BlaXpirit	u could print a schematic easily and use it to cut with scissors or something
16:23:20	flaviu	You could print a cutting stencil
16:23:41	flaviu	Which you can tape on top of some gold paper and use a knife.
16:26:33	BlaXpirit	well yeah
16:27:28	filwit	not a bad idea
16:30:02	dom96	would be nice to get a cardboard crown
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16:53:53	filwit	Araq: unfortunately now even `0 .. nums.high` is not working inside a parallel :\
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16:55:00	onionhammer	ekralso i got the site to 'gulp' :P
16:55:05	onionhammer	ekarlso*
16:55:36	filwit	Araq: In fact I cannot get this to work at all anymore (it works with the more complex example, but a simplified version doesn't pass disjoint checking no matter what I do
16:55:44	*	gokr_ joined #nim
16:56:34	filwit	guess I'll just error report all the code
16:57:20	*	Matthias247 joined #nim
16:58:59	filwit	ahh.. it doesn't work with arrays.. but works with seqs
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17:02:33	ekarlso	onionhammer: ?
17:03:04	onionhammer	took me a half hour but i finally got the front end running :P
17:03:20	ekarlso	onionhammer: hah :p
17:03:23	onionhammer	not sure why u had to use *all* of the crazy front-end libraries u could find :P
17:04:18	onionhammer	does the app isolation stuff work on OS X?
17:04:42	Araq	filwit: report it, report it, report it
17:04:47	*	JusticeFries quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
17:05:04	Araq	people who developed a feature shouldn't be the same who test it ;-)
17:05:32	Araq	but 'parallel' should end up in .experimental anyway
17:05:44	Araq	not that it matters, everybody uses .experimental
17:07:17	filwit	probably shouldn't be the first slide on the website then
17:07:57	filwit	but heh, it's a great feature really
17:08:06	filwit	reported both issues
17:10:23	*	gokr_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
17:17:33	ekarlso	onionhammer: no :)
17:17:46	ekarlso	onionhammer: but there's a vagrant file that brings up a vm if you have vagrant installed !
17:19:06	onionhammer	ah ok
17:19:09	onionhammer	i'll maybe give that a spin
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17:47:20	reactormonk	Araq, want an issue for overlong arrays too?
17:48:26	reactormonk	actually, it does check.
17:55:04	gokr	Looks better, this time Nim ontop of Rust ;): https://sites.google.com/site/stockholmgtug/2015-03-25
17:55:30	reactormonk	gokr, except the image doesn't load here
17:55:35	reactormonk	ah, now it does
17:55:56	gokr	Oh, he actually linked from my site, hmm, ok.
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18:00:30	Araq	Maxdamantus: dunno why I didn't mention it earlier but type checking for generics when the generic types all have a type should really be done at some point
18:01:27	Araq	well I mean when every T is constrained by a "generic"
18:01:38	reactormonk	is `var` transitive?
18:01:49	reactormonk	ehh, rather the other way. is not `var` transitive?
18:04:04	*	UberLambda quit (Remote host closed the connection)
18:04:35	Araq	no its not
18:05:27	reactormonk	you can have an object with a var field?
18:10:17	*	UberLambda joined #nim
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18:15:23	ekarlso	onionhammer: bare in mind though I got a ok large patch atm here locally :p
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18:29:44	Araq	reactormonk: no you cannot
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18:36:28	novist	is c sources for bootstrapping version say 8_2 actually meaning 0.8.2?
18:37:57	onionhammer	ekarlso ah ok
18:38:01	onionhammer	i'll wait to see what u have in store
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18:39:12	BlaXpirit	what, novist?
18:39:42	novist	that https://github.com/nim-lang/csources/tree/devel/c_code/8_2
18:39:59	novist	trying to make sense of version cause apparently i have no better things to do
18:40:20	BlaXpirit	that's not versions
18:40:39	BlaXpirit	or is it..
18:40:51	def-	that's the combination of os and cpu architecture
18:40:57	def-	8 is the OS, 2 the cpu
18:41:08	BlaXpirit	coool
18:41:11	dom96	Araq: I refactored suggest in Aporia a bit. It might work a bit better now.
18:41:40	novist	now thats interesting
18:43:04	dom96	I think I will make nimsuggest exit with a pre-defined exit code if the port is already being used.
18:57:07	Araq	btw Maxdamantus gave Nim the alternative (int, int, float) syntax for tuples! :D
19:06:27	def-	nice work, Maxdamantus
19:08:22	BlaXpirit	how did you learn the workings of the compiler?
19:10:03	*	jsudlow__ is now known as jsudlow
19:15:40	Araq	BlaXpirit: believe it or not, some people can read and modify the compiler :P
19:16:14	dom96	implementing new things is easy, fixing bugs on the other hand...
19:18:09	filwit	gokr: Nim logo looks good. Looks like the Go gopher is a bit taken aback by it or something.
19:18:55	BlaXpirit	it's more than taken aback, because it doesn't even load for me
19:19:11	filwit	oh, that's unfortunate
19:19:14	filwit	loads here just fine
19:19:45	BlaXpirit	I was able to download it, but on page it just doesn't show o.o
19:19:54	filwit	odd
19:20:11	gokr	I can tell him to copy it
19:20:38	BlaXpirit	shows in chromium... don't mind this
19:21:59	*	lnr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:22:04	filwit	what browser where you using before? just tried in firefox and it works there too
19:23:38	flaviu	Doesn't work for me neither, firefox.
19:23:53	BlaXpirit	it is not a valid image file. it is not png, for sure
19:24:14	BlaXpirit	"RIFF (little-endian) data, Web/P image"
19:24:31	BlaXpirit	mm probably offtopic
19:28:39	BlaXpirit	will conversion from one integer type to another always work the same on every platform? for example, converting a large integer to uint8
19:29:07	flaviu	Yes.
19:29:43	flaviu	However, array[4, uint8] -> uint32 is UB
19:30:00	BlaXpirit	no, I mean like 345346364 -> uint8
19:30:13	flaviu	Yeah, that's fine
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19:33:33	BlaXpirit	uhh so converting it to uint8 works, but converting to int8 gives RangeError
19:34:58	flaviu	Well, int8 is a number, uint8 is a bit pattern. So it makes some amount of sense.
19:35:42	BlaXpirit	so how can I convert any integer type to any integer type, giving priority to little bits?
19:36:32	flaviu	and 0xFF?
19:36:54	BlaXpirit	?
19:37:27	flaviu	.eval let x: uint = 25940840239; echo(int(x and 0x7F))
19:37:31	Mimbus	flaviu: eval.nim(3, 14) Error: type mismatch: got (int64) but expected 'uint'
19:37:47	flaviu	.eval let x: uint = 25940840239u; echo(int(x and 0x7F))
19:37:52	Mimbus	flaviu: 47
19:38:22	BlaXpirit	i think that gives me enough information. thanks.
19:40:17	Jehan_	BlaXpirit: use cast?
19:40:26	BlaXpirit	I want consistent behavior
19:40:34	BlaXpirit	on litle endian, big endian
19:40:36	flaviu	Cast will be consistant.
19:40:47	BlaXpirit	how so?
19:40:57	BlaXpirit	hm this is news to me
19:40:58	flaviu	It's just when you're converting array[4, uint8] that it won't be consistant.
19:41:24	Jehan_	Because cast between ints have nothing to do with endianness. Casts between ptr int and ptr int8 etc. can.
19:41:28	BlaXpirit	cast is perfect then
19:42:29	Jehan_	Of course, I'm not sure if you want to really cast 0xffff to -1'i8, for example.
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19:53:46	federico3	getContent() from httpclient can raise TimeoutError. I'm trying to catch it but I'm getting an "undeclared identifier" build error
19:54:14	federico3	otoh, HttpRequestError is declared/defined
19:55:29	BlaXpirit	give code
19:59:09	*	federico3 hands http://paste.debian.net/160150/
19:59:18	federico3	line 69
20:01:39	dom96	federico3: You probably need to import net
20:02:54	federico3	dom96: thanks, it worked. Now: how am I going to find out which module I should have imported next time?
20:02:59	BlaXpirit	exactly
20:03:08	BlaXpirit	dom96, can you see the problem here?
20:03:49	flaviu	federico3: http://nim-lang.org/theindex.html
20:03:59	BlaXpirit	federico3, by examining every single module from "Imports"
20:04:00	flaviu	and you can search for Timeouterror.
20:05:40	dom96	BlaXpirit: I see it. Can you provide a reasonable solution?
20:05:55	federico3	out of curiosity, given that httpclient's procs can raise TimeoutError, why isn't httpclient also exporting that exception?
20:06:02	BlaXpirit	also ^this
20:06:22	BlaXpirit	well one solution would be to mention all the used external symbols in the docs...
20:09:18	dom96	httpclient doesn't raise it, net does.
20:10:56	BlaXpirit	httpclient has .raises. TimeoutError
20:11:14	BlaXpirit	awesome solution: make every symbol a link
20:11:35	BlaXpirit	then every doc page will weigh a couple megabytes, but whatever
20:11:52	flaviu	Compression!
20:12:54	BlaXpirit	i think this shouldn't even be very difficult
20:13:27	dom96	PRs welcome
20:13:28	dom96	bbl
20:17:13	Varriount	Araq: Well, I did say that I might be wrong.
20:26:11	BlaXpirit	then I wonder why cast[int](-1'i8) == -1
20:27:04	BlaXpirit	shouldn't it be 255
20:27:27	BlaXpirit	0xff casts to 0xffffffff
20:31:53	BlaXpirit	c++ says it's an invalid cast :o
20:32:57	BlaXpirit	oh i see now why it works like this...
20:33:03	BlaXpirit	simple C cast is used
20:33:52	BlaXpirit	I thought nim's cast is reinterpret_cast, and I was wron
20:33:54	BlaXpirit	g
20:34:26	BlaXpirit	(well obviously not literally C++ cast, but maybe implemented through pointers)
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20:53:36	Varriount	onionhammer: Can you explain to me exactly what the 'set project file' command is supposed to do?
20:56:42	onionhammer	Varriount it was used for idetools project file
21:02:34	dom96	you should add some detection mechanism for that
21:02:57	onionhammer	the detection mechanism should be in nimsuggest
21:05:46	dom96	agreed
21:18:26	*	bcinman joined #nim
21:26:54	ekarlso	onionhammer: around ? :p
21:27:25	*	reem quit (Remote host closed the connection)
21:30:03	federico3	I'm trying again with a new PR, #138
21:30:57	*	reem joined #nim
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22:01:50	Araq	reactormonk: did you really update our PR without testing anything?
22:02:02	BlaXpirit	is there a better way to write sizeof(T)*8 ?
22:02:09	reactormonk	Araq, which one?
22:02:20	Araq	the 'result' shadowing message
22:03:04	Araq	BlaXpirit: no. it's fine. octets did win three decades ago
22:03:41	BlaXpirit	thanks
22:05:54	reactormonk	Araq, apparently I tested the wrong branch -.-
22:07:01	*	reem joined #nim
22:09:17	BlaXpirit	why can't I do this?
22:09:19	BlaXpirit	.eval proc zero(T: typedesc): T = T(0); echo zero(int)
22:09:22	Mimbus	BlaXpirit: eval.nim(4, 9) Info: instantiation from here
22:10:32	BlaXpirit	well, all I want is turn stuff[int]() into stuff(int)
22:10:38	BlaXpirit	but apparently it's not such a good idea
22:10:57	Araq	yeah there are many typedesc related bugs
22:11:21	Araq	it's already reported btw, don't bother
22:11:40	BlaXpirit	thx for reply anyway
22:13:45	def-	.eval proc zero[T]: T = T(0); echo zero[int]()
22:13:48	Mimbus	def-: 0
22:14:20	ekarlso	def-: switching it to use the api soon ? :p
22:14:30	*	saml_ joined #nim
22:14:32	def-	ekarlso: switching what?
22:14:42	ekarlso	Mimbus:
22:14:48	def-	i have nothing to do with mimbus
22:14:51	ekarlso	ah ok
22:14:53	ekarlso	:P
22:15:32	def-	ekarlso: and the website still is unreachable for everyone after one person did a "while true" loop
22:17:09	ekarlso	while loops are the root of evil :(
22:17:57	*	Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
22:23:04	def-	even if something runs for just 1 second, you can't have the website unavailable for a second then
22:25:54	*	Menche joined #nim
22:29:18	ekarlso	def-: yeah, I gotta try out the asyncproc stuff :p
22:29:44	BlaXpirit	i'd just run everything on the same server that rust uses
22:29:55	BlaXpirit	let's be reasonable here
22:30:06	ekarlso	BlaXpirit: what you mean ?
22:30:20	BlaXpirit	it never occured to me that Nim would be used to run the server for playpen
22:30:39	ekarlso	BlaXpirit: what you mean ?
22:31:08	def-	ekarlso: he means that you could just have used this web interface: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-playpen
22:31:09	BlaXpirit	you are using Nim and Jester to run your playpen, is that correct?
22:31:37	ekarlso	BlaXpirit: and so ?
22:31:41	BlaXpirit	hah, even Rust's playpen uses Python
22:31:58	BlaXpirit	ekarlso, and so you might run into problems and get unnecessary work to do
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22:33:35	ekarlso	might as well fix it BlaXpirit ...
22:33:40	ekarlso	made alot of effort already :p
22:35:37	ekarlso	u dont like it BlaXpirit ?
22:35:39	ekarlso	:p
22:36:11	BlaXpirit	I don't like it when it's down
22:36:25	ekarlso	i'll try out the asyncproc in a bit
22:36:49	ekarlso	I wonder how to avoid the oom stuff though
22:38:42	onionhammer	ekarlso back
22:48:40	BlaXpirit	hah, workaround
22:48:49	BlaXpirit	proc zero[T](): T = T(0); proc zero*(T: typedesc): T = zero[T](); echo zero(int)
22:49:54	*	xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
22:50:02	ekarlso	BlaXpirit: dont think my effort is that bad :p
22:50:26	ekarlso	best of it is to get to learn more nim haha
22:50:50	BlaXpirit	man, i got myself on the wrong side of nim
22:50:55	BlaXpirit	doing all kinds of low level stuff
22:51:09	ekarlso	what you doing BlaXpirit ?
22:51:13	BlaXpirit	from C bindings to bitwise number manipulation
22:51:27	ekarlso	BlaXpirit: another thing I got locally also is a supervisord conf for it
22:51:35	ekarlso	so even if it crashes it'll be backup
22:51:53	BlaXpirit	that's nice but can it serve multiple people at once, at least?
22:52:10	ekarlso	BlaXpirit: that's why I hope for the async stuff
22:52:16	BlaXpirit	good luck
22:52:18	ekarlso	or i guess I'll have to do a thread pr thing :p
22:52:29	ekarlso	BlaXpirit: doesnt sound too positive :p
22:52:57	BlaXpirit	i'm always like that
22:59:20	flaviu	ekarlso: Can you disable minification for Play temporally?
23:00:57	ekarlso	flaviu: :/
23:01:01	ekarlso	a bit hard to do sorry
23:01:49	flaviu	fair enough, thanks for looking into it.
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23:05:27	ekarlso	flaviu: what's wrong ? :p
23:06:00	flaviu	It takes a moment to load, and I wanted to see what was taking all that time.
23:06:14	ekarlso	ah
23:09:08	BlaXpirit	flaviu, maybe it's because the server is not responsive?
23:10:23	dom96	what's minification?
23:10:23	flaviu	hmm, maybe. 862K JS? :O
23:10:28	flaviu	I think that's it.
23:10:43	flaviu	Since the CSS doesn't appear to load until the JS has loaded in.
23:11:02	flaviu	And there is no caching, so that JS has to be downloaded every time.
23:11:03	BlaXpirit	singlethreaded and whatnot
23:11:13	BlaXpirit	maan
23:11:22	ekarlso	think ill go back to plain jquery..
23:11:27	ekarlso	:p
23:12:04	flaviu	BlaXpirit: No, singlethreaded has nothing to do with this. I *think* HTTP2 would improve performnace here.
23:13:17	def-	dom96: usually making javascript smaller (and unreadable)
23:13:26	flaviu	ekarlso: Check out closure compiler, see how much it can squeeze out of that JS.
23:13:40	dom96	oh right
23:13:45	ekarlso	flaviu: ?
23:14:14	dom96	is this angular that's so big?
23:14:33	ekarlso	i tihnk it's the lumx crap
23:14:43	BlaXpirit	flaviu, I'm pretty sure it's minified as best as possible
23:14:44	ekarlso	that pulls in overkill stuff
23:14:53	BlaXpirit	these scripts are given in already minified state
23:15:11	*	jferg2010 joined #nim
23:15:27	flaviu	BlaXpirit: Closure compiler does some fancy stuff...
23:15:43	BlaXpirit	flaviu, what i mean is they might even have used it
23:16:31	onionhammer	ekarlso went a little overboard on the client side libs :p
23:16:37	dom96	Best way to fix this problem: remove lumx, reimplement the stuff you actually use out of it in Nim :P
23:16:42	ekarlso	onionhammer: :p
23:17:01	ekarlso	dom96: usually just scrapping lumx
23:17:03	ekarlso	should be fine
23:17:04	BlaXpirit	the only justifiable lib here is text editor
23:17:15	ekarlso	use aceeditor and jq
23:17:19	onionhammer	so i got the vagrant running ekarlso
23:17:22	onionhammer	what now? :P
23:17:39	dom96	what do you need jquery for?
23:17:54	ekarlso	what else you wanna do post etc with ?
23:18:22	BlaXpirit	well that's justifiable too
23:18:36	onionhammer	yeah jquery is fine imo, that and ace are all u need :p
23:18:57	flaviu	dom96: Everything is difficult without jquery.
23:19:16	dom96	I disagree.
23:19:35	onionhammer	not difficult, but more verbose
23:19:41	dom96	indeed.
23:20:04	dom96	Maybe you will reimplement some things that jQuery implements but you'll end up with leaner JS.
23:20:32	onionhammer	jquery is definitely bloated, dont get me wrong
23:20:36	Araq	you'll also learn lots of things and at the end you can debug it
23:20:48	dom96	http://youmightnotneedjquery.com/
23:21:15	dom96	it's not even that much more verbose
23:21:24	dom96	(Look for the AJAX section)
23:23:58	ekarlso	is there a simple css thing to use ?
23:24:02	flaviu	looks like closure compiler only does 866.33KB -> 706.3KB
23:25:12	flaviu	ekarlso: 97% of the css is unused.
23:26:21	flaviu	ekarlso: https://github.com/ben-eb/gulp-uncss ?
23:26:40	ekarlso	flaviu: or just scrap lumx..
23:27:05	flaviu	Dunno, lumx looks pretty great.
23:27:08	ekarlso	allmost tempted to let onionhammer code it :p
23:27:19	Maxdamantus	Araq: hm, so `proc foo[T: Bar, U: Baz]()` would be checked but `proc foo[T: Bar, U]()` wouldn't?
23:27:48	Araq	well actually more like
23:28:04	Araq	if would be checked but 'U' is like "ok, everything goes"
23:28:09	Araq	*it would
23:28:19	ekarlso	onionhammer: suggestions ?
23:28:23	dom96	ekarlso: This really shouldn't be that difficult. It's a very simple site, CSS should be minimal.
23:28:34	dom96	just grab normalise.css
23:28:42	dom96	and add some simple rules
23:28:50	ekarlso	dom96: ... I SUCK at css
23:28:53	ekarlso	and I do hate it :p
23:29:02	ekarlso	a reason why I go with bootstrap / lumx :p
23:29:22	dom96	ekarlso: You've got an excuse to learn it then :P
23:29:36	ekarlso	dom96: I got enough stuff at $job$ to learn :p
23:29:46	Maxdamantus	Araq: by "everything goes", you mean "this works for all types"?
23:30:20	ekarlso	what I dont get with lumx is why it puls stupid jq
23:30:26	ekarlso	when angular really doesnt need it
23:31:01	onionhammer	ekarlso im more than happy to let you do the coding, I was just offering to help you pretty up the front end styles more than anything :0
23:31:04	Araq	no, I mean if there is a 'u' of type 'U' then function(u) is valid for any function
23:31:13	onionhammer	Im only belly aching because it's such a PITA to get it set up and running :P
23:31:18	Araq	since it's unconstrained
23:31:25	Maxdamantus	because of things like: 22:27 < ljharb> NIH is a dangerous disease
23:31:27	ekarlso	onionhammer: yeh, readme's are lacking atm :p
23:31:32	flaviu	ekarlso: The minimal-effort, maximum-yield solution is to enable caching.
23:31:50	onionhammer	just use nginx and let it handle caching
23:31:50	Maxdamantus	Sorry ljharb.
23:31:58	ekarlso	flaviu: still I think lumx pulls in lots of stuff that even angular for this isn't needed ..
23:32:19	ekarlso	like jquery ..
23:32:38	ekarlso	it doesnt cache currently ?
23:33:29	BlaXpirit	apparently not
23:33:31	Maxdamantus	Araq: mm, so it becomes a bottom type.
23:33:35	onionhammer	are you guys counting gzipped too?
23:33:43	onionhammer	nginx would do the gzipping
23:33:45	BlaXpirit	if it's even gzipped
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23:33:49	BlaXpirit	which i doubt
23:34:01	onionhammer	also serve the static stuff
23:34:25	flaviu	ekarlso: http://imgur.com/hx0ByAG,PaYGMIZ
23:34:48	flaviu	You want as much as possible to be orange triangles.
23:34:49	ekarlso	flaviu: yeah, and that vendor thing
23:34:51	ekarlso	contains
23:34:51	dom96	Jester still needs to have caching implemented.
23:35:02	ekarlso	http://ui.lumapps.com/ < all of that
23:35:28	ekarlso	angular, jq, velicoity, moment.js,
23:35:36	ekarlso	+ aceeditor
23:35:40	*	Maxdamantus noticed he missed something in the parsercomb.nim test he added: forgot to specify the generics in the `fail` proc, which is the only one unused.
23:35:55	ekarlso	jq velocity and moment should be easy to kil
23:36:06	ekarlso	if one stopped using lumx
23:36:09	*	Maxdamantus wonders if he should make a PR for it.
23:36:21	flaviu	Let's point and laugh at lumx: http://i.imgur.com/cGxuH8N.png
23:36:38	onionhammer	yuck
23:36:42	ekarlso	ouch :p
23:36:48	BlaXpirit	i can't even
23:37:14	Maxdamantus	s/Result(/Result[T, O](/
23:37:42	Araq	Maxdamantus: btw why do you use generic methods?
23:37:44	flaviu	ekarlso: Try purecss? 4K of css.
23:38:05	Maxdamantus	Araq: I didn't realise the distinction methods made when I first tried to write them.
23:38:10	Maxdamantus	They should be procs.
23:38:37	*	reem quit (Remote host closed the connection)
23:38:45	Araq	Maxdamantus: well PRs are always welcome
23:38:59	ekarlso	flaviu: gimme some
23:39:10	*	reem joined #nim
23:39:16	Maxdamantus	Okay, might as well fix those few things then.
23:41:24	*	jferg2010 quit (Quit: Leaving)
23:42:14	Maxdamantus	Apparently that first fix causes invalid C code to be generated.
23:43:29	Araq	and now you have something to do ;-)
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23:45:06	Maxdamantus	it sounds like it's another case of that last .eval I did here.
23:45:42	Maxdamantus	.eval type T = distinct proc(); var a = T(proc() = discard); a()
23:45:47	Mimbus	Maxdamantus: Error: execution of an external program failed; rerun with --parallelBuild:1 to see the error message
23:46:09	Araq	distinct procs are unfair :P
23:46:19	Araq	never used these
23:46:44	federico3	dom96: the package check script could be run with TravisCI
23:48:06	dom96	federico3: right. I guess i'll need to set that up.
23:50:00	BlaXpirit	OderWat, here?
23:50:27	BlaXpirit	that reservoirSamples thing is pretty useful
23:50:30	OderWat	@BlaXpirit If you summon me like that :)
23:50:32	ekarlso	so nice
23:50:34	BlaXpirit	i definitely wanna add it to my lib
23:50:38	ekarlso	dog puked all over carpet :/
23:50:41	BlaXpirit	D:
23:50:44	ekarlso	damne furball
23:50:52	BlaXpirit	so why not just be content with that
23:51:03	BlaXpirit	and then insist Jehan's macro be added to stdlib
23:51:26	BlaXpirit	i even stopped trying to push my random lib into standard library
23:52:08	BlaXpirit	i've done so many reworks on it that i lost all confidence in its stability
23:52:36	OderWat	ekarlso.. look at my pull request for "nim-vm" please... just worked on that an hour :)
23:54:41	OderWat	@BlaXpirit Well I like that reservoir sampling thingy too. I translated that from some ruby code I found in an article. Actually I think I have some more cool algorithms in a book about using Haskell to solve stuff. Things where you are like "no way that could be done or optimized"
23:55:34	BlaXpirit	i remember myself inventing this algorithm, but i forgot about it since :D
23:56:12	ekarlso	merged OderWat
23:56:28	ekarlso	meh, so many freakin css frameworks :p
23:56:30	OderWat	so nice.. "nim-vm install devel" "nim-vm update devel" "nim-vm install v0.9.4" "nim-vm install v0.10.2" "nim-vm use v0.9.4" .. "nim-vm use devel" :) I love it! thanks for the idea and the script ekarlso
23:56:34	ekarlso	material, ionic, bootstrap, lumx ...
23:56:37	ekarlso	gawd :p
23:56:49	ekarlso	thank god my dayjob aint webdevel
23:56:58	ekarlso	or frontend rather
23:57:09	federico3	dom96: I'll try setting up a .travis.yml ifle
23:57:12	federico3	*file
23:57:24	dom96	federico3: thanks
23:57:44	OderWat	@ekarlso do you plan to output c code side by side to playpen? I saw this for GCC and Rust with ASM and thought thats cool to have and not to hard to implement I guess
23:58:13	ekarlso	OderWat: create a issue and we'll see :/
23:59:18	*	akiradeveloper joined #nim
23:59:27	flaviu	ekarlso: you need to add a scripts/ in the automatic installation
23:59:44	ekarlso	flaviu: ? :p