<< 07-08-2018 >>
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04:35:47FromDiscord<treeform> i report bugs I don't fix them, does this mean I delay nim 1.0?
04:39:09leorizetreeform: that means you're helping Nim to have less bugs before 1.0 :)
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07:02:19Araqzacharycarter[m], busy day,
07:02:54Araqyou can use 'if n.info ?? "temp.nim": echo typeToString(n.typ)' to get conditional output
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07:56:06federico3useful for karax? https://blog.acolyer.org/2018/08/07/bleak-automatically-debugging-memory-leaks-in-web-applications/
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10:25:24leorizedoes nim support some kind of system-wide nimblepath?
10:27:16Araqfederico3, seems useful.
10:32:33PMunchleorize, what do you mean?
10:33:36leorizePMunch: I mean a nimble directory that's shared by all users
10:34:21PMunchAah
10:34:25PMunchHmm, not sure
10:45:22dom96leorize: yes: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/config/nim.cfg#L49
10:45:26dom96Nimble doesn't support it yet
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11:24:03federico3dom96: it doesn't?
11:24:27dom96indeed
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14:36:29dom96:/
14:36:32dom96oprypin:
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15:08:15dom96Big news: https://nim-lang.org/blog/2018/08/07/nim-partners-with-status.html 🎉
15:09:56mirangreat news! congrats!!
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15:12:45miranbtw dom96, what was the conclusion - what is the best way to donate to nim? (the least amount of fees)
15:13:30dom96Depends on where your bank account lives.
15:13:52dom96If EU then Araq can probably give you his account number for a transfer
15:14:13miranit lives in croatia, so it is EU but we don't use euro.
15:16:14mirani see there are some options to donate X-per-month, but i would like to make a one-time donation, if that makes any difference
15:16:31Araqone-time donations are fine too
15:17:27rayman22201awesome news about status! you guys will still take my monthly PayPal donation right?
15:18:20rayman22201also, the gitter bridge is down. just FYI.
15:18:38Araqof course, we still collect money like we used to.
15:19:05rayman22201cool
15:19:57dom96Status is effectively a (big) contributor now
15:21:03rayman22201awesome
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15:37:23PMunchGreat news with Status!
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15:51:35stefanos82this is incredible news! well done Nim team! ^_^
15:52:18stefanos82how about HN?
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15:59:54federico3"We will now be able to stay focused ..." is not very clear: how many of the existing core contributors are going to work full-time on Nim?
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16:20:33euantorAwesome news, nice one!
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16:30:12krux02Araq: I have a question regarding tsize.nim
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16:31:12krux02when you look at the current implementation of that test, it checks that the size of TMyRecord is 40 bytes, even though TMyRecord uses both int and float as members.
16:31:57krux02int has a size that depends on the target, meaning the size of TMyRecord depends on the target
16:32:00krux02that test is wrong
16:34:12Araq krux02 quite possible
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17:09:44dom96federico3: AFAIK it'll be Araq + two (or so) people he hires
17:14:28krux02I just compiled with nim_temp and I can't find the generated C file in the nimcache folder
17:14:36krux02Is that on purpose, or am I just blind
17:20:47krux02Araq: I am in the tests folder, and I can't find the generated c file for the test
17:20:54krux02I compile on the command line with nim test
17:23:17leorizekrux02: they're in the nimcache at the top level of the source
17:23:22leorizenimcache/tests/...
17:24:22krux02I found them, they are in /tests/misc/tests/misc/nimcache/compiler_tsizeof.c (WTF)
17:26:28stefanos82dom96: the most logical thing Araq would or should do is to look the most active contributors on github and if they are interested, he will hire them.
17:27:21krux02stefanos82, most active is not necessarily the most important thing.
17:27:58stefanos82krux02: it can be if their contributions have to do with bug fixes and language implementations
17:28:47krux02stefanos82, All I want to say is that "most active" is not necessarily the best metric.
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17:29:11krux02I have seen people very active and interested with PR to Nim.
17:29:14stefanos82I didn't make it clear that "the most active contributor" will consist of multiple parameters
17:30:26krux02The problem is, some people contribute and want something in the standard library, because stuff in the standardlibrary is magically maintained and they don't need to do it anymore.
17:31:12krux02some people also just want to add a ton of features that do not match the idea of core Nim.
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17:33:26oprypinSorry, people, the Gitter<->IRC bridge was down today :(
17:33:54stefanos82krux02: personally, what I wanted from a language is to have a solid core with a huge set of standard modules.
17:36:39krux02stefanos82, How do you think small development team and huge set of standard modules works together?
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17:37:45krux02I believe in rock solid but small core and standard library and package manager so that the community is enabled to deliver this huge set of other features.
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17:38:53FromGitter<brentp> i've been building some nim command-line apps using holy build-box (centos 5). when I update to nim 0.18.0 from 0.17.2, I get an error about missing `sys/eventfd.h`. has anyone else encountered and solved this? or have any ideas about fixing it?
17:40:39krux02sorry, no idea
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17:41:32FromGitter<kaushalmodi> @brentp I use this script to build on RHEL 6.8 (which I believe would be close to centOS 5?): https://ptpb.pw/w34h/bash
17:42:06FromGitter<kaushalmodi> You should need to update only the `nim_install_dir` var on line 104
17:42:24FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Nimble manages dependencies for libraries you install. Is there a way to manage dependencies for apps? NodeJS allows you to use the same package.json, but Nimble will install the app as a library when it gets the dependencies no matter what.
17:43:09FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Or for now do I just have to include a README covering the versions/saying to run `numble install`?
17:43:17FromGitter<kaushalmodi> @brentp To run the script: clone the Nim repo, cd to it, copy the script in that dir, `./mybuild.sh` (to install Nim devel)
17:43:56FromGitter<brentp> @kaushalmodi I have a script that works to build, just not on CentOS 5 with nim 0.18.0 or newer.
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17:50:29FromGitter<Varriount> @brentp I dare you to target RHEL 6 >:D
17:52:45FromGitter<kayabaNerve> @Varriount Ubuntu 8 or you don't support legacy computers at all.
17:53:48stefanos82krux02: that's what I meant. I don't like how C++ and Python are being expanded nowadays. They have become very bloated, feature-wise speaking
17:54:24stefanos82whereas with Nim, I have a feeling I can express myself better thanks to its metaprogramming with macros
17:54:38FromGitter<kayabaNerve> And kernel 2.2 ofc.
17:55:33krux02Araq: where is the size of int32 int64 initially set?
17:56:01krux02I implemented logic the checks the target to set the alignment correctly.
17:56:07krux02that logic is never triggered
17:56:21krux02because that that time the size is already set.
17:58:21FromGitter<kayabaNerve> *2.6
17:58:26krux02I found it
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17:59:14FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I'm not an archaic monster; just a reasonable LTS person.
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18:05:29zacharycarter[m]Having trouble calling - 'if n.info ?? "temp.nim": echo typeToString(n.typ)'
18:06:07zacharycarter[m]I get an error about incorrect parameters, it wants a ConfigRef as the first argument passed
18:06:27zacharycarter[m]but I'm not sure how to do -
18:06:27zacharycarter[m]`if c.graph.config ?? n.info, "test.nim":`
18:07:32krux02zacharycarter[m], what is ??
18:08:49krux02zacharycarter[m], normally when you are in the compiler you are in an environment where a lot of config ref is passed to fucntion,
18:09:15krux02just look up and down a bit and see if there is somedthing like foobar(n.config, ...)
18:09:21krux02for foobar(conf, ...)
18:09:30krux02when that is the case use that config ref
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18:15:30TheLemonManzacharycarter[m], use `??`(arg1, arg2, arg3)
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18:24:17zacharycarter[m]Thanks TheLemonMan and krux02
18:24:23krux02kayabaNerve: I was once on LTS, too, I hated upgrades. Then I switched to Arch.
18:26:15krux02I am a different person Now. Being on edge is simple now.
18:26:21krux02anyway I have to go, bye
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18:28:21FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I dislike forced upgrades
18:28:42FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I generally get latest on my Desktop, but all my servers are LTS
18:29:32FromGitter<kayabaNerve> And Ubuntu Mate FTW
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18:38:59FromGitter<timotheecour> I'm trying to install nim from source on windows to test a PR that's failing on windows; what's the easiest way to get gcc on windows? do i have to use cygwin? instructions here (https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim) mention gcc but not how to get it
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18:41:03FromDiscord<treeform> `startProcess("foo", args = ["-c=", line])`
18:41:03FromDiscord<treeform> the problem is that `-c=` gets a space:
18:41:03FromDiscord<treeform> `-c= "foo"`
18:41:03FromDiscord<treeform> nim's parseopt2 does not parse spaces items.
18:41:04FromDiscord<treeform> How do you guys call processes compiled with nim from nim with arguments?
18:43:07FromGitter<kungtotte> @timotheecour I think the fastest way to get gcc is http://mingw.org/ but the fastest way to get *Nim* is https://github.com/dom96/choosenim
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18:59:24Araqrun finish.exe
18:59:31Araqit installs GCC for you.
19:03:37TheLemonManzacharycarter[m], need some pointers for that TLS issue?
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19:05:38TheLemonManAraq, I have a fix for that closure issue but I have no idea why it works heh
19:06:52FromGitter<kayabaNerve> TDM GCC FTW
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19:12:23AraqTheLemonMan, are the tests green?
19:16:44TheLemonManAraq, yes, but I'm afraid it's gonna break down sooner or later if nobody knows why the code works :)
19:19:10Araqcreate a PR please
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19:28:21TheLemonMandone
19:30:25Araqone problem to keep in mind is that closure iterator creation can only be done once the environment has been computed completely, otherwise the codegen might produce incomplete struct definitions and GC tracing procs
19:31:04Araqand c.tooEarly tried to do something about that problem
19:31:20Araqbut the closure iteration tranformation has been rewritten since then
19:33:05FromGitter<tim-st> @dom96 I created a forum account ~3 weeks ago now I tried the confirmation link on my mobile mail app but it doesnt seem to work :\
19:33:30dom96What's your username?
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19:33:52FromGitter<tim-st> "Tim" (not "tim" who exists too^^)
19:34:00FromGitter<tim-st> (I found out later)
19:34:16Araqhuh I doubt that's allowed, isn't this comparison case-insensitive?
19:34:25FromGitter<tim-st> nope
19:34:34FromGitter<tim-st> but the old user is from 2015
19:34:44dom96lol what
19:34:47dom96This should be disallowed
19:35:01AraqSqlite usually does some case insensitive comparisons by default
19:35:12FromGitter<tim-st> should I pick an other name?
19:35:19dom96yeah, please create a new account
19:35:33FromGitter<tim-st> ok, do you delete the account?
19:35:43dom96https://github.com/nim-lang/nimforum/blob/master/src/forum.nim#L609
19:36:17dom96So SQLite isn't performing a case insensitive check
19:36:42Araqsurprising
19:36:53FromGitter<Varriount> Isn't that what you want?
19:37:16Araqhttps://stackoverflow.com/questions/973541/how-to-set-sqlite3-to-be-case-insensitive-when-string-comparing
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19:40:34dom96bah, that's annoying
19:40:43Araqindeed
19:40:51dom96I guess I'll just use toLower
19:41:04dom96But that sucks :(
19:41:11FromGitter<tim-st> no `-` allowed in name?
19:41:21dom96indeed
19:41:59Araqdom96, why not add " COLLATE NOCASE" to the query?
19:42:09dom96Yeah... I'd have to test this
19:43:23Araqnah, trust Stack overflow :P
19:44:39FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Isn't there a program which will automatically fix program errors with the top SO answer?
19:44:40FromGitter<tim-st> I get a blank page on my mobile phone, is javascript involved in confirmation?
19:45:48Araqnah, you only need a browser that supports wasm
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19:46:10Araqsorry, just kidding
19:46:15FromGitter<tim-st> I have android firefox and android chrome
19:47:11FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I found this but I can't find what I'm referring to https://github.com/MilesCranmer/gso
19:47:21FromGitter<kayabaNerve> That's useful. What I'm thinking of is roulette...
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19:51:33FromGitter<timotheecour> @kungtotte , @araq thanks for the answers on gcc; will try mingw first since from my understanding finish.exe tries to installs gcc from mingw; we probably should mention these in README>md
19:53:20TheLemonManyeah, the closure iterator transform has a lot of edge cases
19:53:40FromGitter<tim-st> ok, my guess was correct, the activation only works with javascript on
19:54:53Araqreadme.txt tells you to read install.txt which has "Installation on Windows" which tells you how to install it
19:54:56TheLemonManAraq, wrt #8410 I stopped changing the Windows types because I don't develop on Windows, I've relaxed the checks in #8095 so that those adjustments aren't necessary
19:55:46AraqTheLemonMan, yeah I need to review it, what's the link?
19:56:15TheLemonManAraq, https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/8095
19:58:41FromGitter<timotheecour> @araq gotcha. but these (install.txt, readme.txt etc) are not mentioned in readme.md ; PR accepted to clean this a bit and make doc more DRY?
19:59:42Araqdunno. the problem is that readme.md is for github users and github users are thought to use 'git' for building the compiler from source
20:00:45Araqwhereas all the others got to https://nim-lang.org/install.html
20:00:52Araqand find appropriate instructions too
20:00:56FromGitter<timotheecour> having both readme.txt and readme.md with partially overallping info is confusing; how about: option 1: rm readme.txt; (I mean, readme.md are super common those days); option 2: make readme.txt an file with just 1 line: see readme.md
20:01:23Araqreadme.txt is for the double-click Windows losers though
20:01:30Araqthey can't open a readme.md
20:02:22Araqbut readme.md can link to https://nim-lang.org/install.html for a non-source-based installation
20:08:37dom96oooh https://twitter.com/TheRegister/status/1026908664962068480
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20:10:41krux02Araq: I have seen how the alignment of an uint/float is initialized. But the alignment also needs to be set for enums where the size is manually set.
20:10:51krux02How can I do that without copy pastin the code?
20:11:02krux02I haven't found a nice way.
20:11:32dom96We're in The Register :O
20:12:30krux02the most normalized way I can think of is to put a field in the ConfigRef that says the int64 float64 align, next to intsize and floatsize.
20:12:35krux02dom96, what register?
20:12:44TheLemonManRAX
20:12:58dom96krux02: https://twitter.com/TheRegister/status/1026908664962068480
20:23:38Araqkrux02, enums always have an alignment that's equal to their size
20:24:00krux02Araq: enums compile to integer types
20:24:08krux02uint32 uint64
20:24:17krux02therefore it aligns to that type alignment
20:24:40Araq...so?
20:25:20krux02it means it aligns to whatever the int64/int32 etc type aligns
20:25:27krux02that is not necessarily itself
20:28:26Araqno? I thought only float64 is affected by this nonsense
20:28:52krux02nope
20:29:02krux02Araq: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/611123/long-long-alignment-problem-msvc-vs-gcc
20:30:17krux02this nonsens is what makes the implementation of sizeof/alignof so hard
20:31:19krux02Araq: for your understanding, the alignment padding bytes in that example are appended at the end of the struct, not before the ``long long``.
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20:36:32Araqkrux02, well just use a template to avoid the copy&paste
20:37:55krux02I don't need a template to avoid a copy paste, the problem is, the implementation is not visible via imports because it was an implementation detail and to be honest I like it keep it as an implementation detail.
20:38:24krux02I just don't know where to put the logic, so that both integers get the right alignment value for initialization and enums.
20:38:45krux02the problem is that the size for enums is set via a pragma.
20:38:55Araqyou write a new module and import it in semtypes.nim?
20:38:58krux02it is not that semtypes knows already the size of the enum
20:39:21krux02the size of the enum is set in pragmas.nim
20:40:44Araqso import it in pragmas.nim. I dunno, create a PR, I will tell you how to refactor it
20:40:49Araqif necessary.
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20:42:13krux02is it ok if it will just be part of my bigger sizeof-alignof branch?
20:42:24krux02I recently resolved all merged conflics with it.
20:42:52krux02it is almost done, I think this is the last tiny but that still needs to be implemented.
20:44:05Araqthat branch was completely wrong for OSX
20:44:33Araqhave you fixed that? .import'ed objects do not have reliable sizes.
20:44:41Araqthey can and do lack fields.
20:47:58FromGitter<timotheecour> the joys of windows.... after running finish.exe stable nim runs fine, but I want to build nim from source: .\build64.bat says gcc is not found; If I edit build64.bat to "SET CC=vccexe" instead of "SET CC=gcc" it fails with "exception: The system cannot find the file spe ⏎ Requested command not found: 'cl.exe'. OS error" ; I could only find https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/2770 but it only mentions using visual
20:47:58FromGitter... studio, not mingw (installed via finish.exe)... happy to clarify that in docs in a PR if someone helps
20:48:51Araqfinish.exe offers to add gcc to your path
20:51:14FromGitter<cooldome> Hi Araq, what is the correct order of passes in your opinion. lamdalifting then transf or the opposite?
20:52:12FromGitter<timotheecour> bin/nim.exe is already in your PATH [Skipping] Found a MingW directory that is not in your PATH. \\Mac\Home\Downloads\nim-0.18.0_x64\nim-0.18.0\dist\mingw64\bin Should it be added to your PATH permanently? (y/n) => I cliked y ; but when I open a fresh new powershell window, typing gcc says: "cc : The term 'gcc' is not recognized as the name of a cmdle"
20:52:40Araqtransf and then LL, LL needs to lift the temporaries introduced by iterator inlining
20:53:54Araqtimotheecour: no idea, I don't use powershell, it's bad
20:54:35FromGitter<timotheecour> same on command prompt
20:55:56Araqdownload this https://www.rapidee.com/en/download and inspect your PATHs
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20:56:41Araq(yes, you can inspect these via Windows's UI too, but you don't want to do that)
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20:57:53Calinouthe PATH explorer in Windows 10 isn't too bad
20:58:01Calinouit displays a list rather than a single semicolon-separated value
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20:58:21Calinouhttps://www.rapidee.com/en/license too :(
20:59:08Araqand use "cmder.exe" as the console
20:59:42Araqmakes it bearable for me, but there are plenty of other console emulators too
20:59:54FromGitter<cooldome> thanks, having fun delaying the transf to codegen stage
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21:00:20TheLemonManfor some definition of "fun" heh
21:00:29AraqCalinou, PATH explorer? never heard of it
21:00:48Calinouit's in Windows 10 as of the November update (2015, that is)
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21:06:09Araqcooldome: LL can change the calling convention and influence the type checking process but this is likely a bit broken already
21:06:40Araqsemcheck tries to figure out the .closure on its own already.
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21:36:13FromGitter<NOP0> Hi all, does nim support higher kinded types? Thanks
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21:45:26zacharycarter[m]NOP0: what do you mean?
21:45:26zacharycarter[m]tangent - so I'm guessing that my problem lies in: semStmtAndGenerateGenerics - if a threadvar isn't being accessed correctly?
21:45:27zacharycarter[m]at least at a high level?
21:45:37zacharycarter[m]I'm basically doing - https://gist.github.com/zacharycarter/acf73914095d062e2b98a76facd19556#file-transf-nim-L10-L12
21:46:25zacharycarter[m]and getting back - https://gist.github.com/zacharycarter/ad1a77d52283d51a5366649948ad582f
21:47:04zacharycarter[m]with the code - https://gist.github.com/zacharycarter/e44274861f211bb2345d4fb2a1bd87a6
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21:52:13zacharycarter[m]we need a US based core Nim dev
21:52:28zacharycarter[m]I nominate Varriount 😎
21:52:53zacharycarter[m]and I'
21:53:54zacharycarter[m]m totally assuming that this is going to be a democratic appointment 😆
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22:06:29FromGitter<rayman22201> Lol. I'll vote for @Varriount. He might not want it though 😝
22:07:58zacharycarter[m]Well our totally asinine voting process is sure to get him the role 😀
22:08:24zacharycarter[m]seriously though - I think Nim would benefit from a core dev that is based somewhere in the US
22:08:35FromGitter<rayman22201> I agree
22:08:36zacharycarter[m]preferably west coast
22:09:26FromGitter<rayman22201> I don't care about which coast, but us based would be nice
22:10:01FromGitter<rayman22201> Nim does seem to be a very European centric community
22:10:15zacharycarter[m]well the reason I say west coast is because the hour overlap is less trivial
22:10:23zacharycarter[m]like if someone is on the west coast they may cut off work hours at 5pm which is 8pm eastern
22:10:48zacharycarter[m]but if someone is on the east coast they're cutting of at 2pm west coast time
22:10:51FromGitter<kaushalmodi> @Varriount is most likely on east coast
22:10:55FromGitter<kaushalmodi> .. he'd need to move :P
22:10:59zacharycarter[m]so I think spreading out the time zones as much as possible makes sense
22:11:03zacharycarter[m]he is for sure
22:11:14zacharycarter[m]he lives near me - we've met up / hung out before
22:11:26FromGitter<kaushalmodi> ah cool, so where are you?
22:11:29FromGitter<kaushalmodi> I am in NC
22:11:46zacharycarter[m]oh cool! we're both in northern VA
22:12:24FromGitter<kaushalmodi> Cool! I was there last weekend, on my way to Hershey's
22:12:36FromGitter<rayman22201> I'm the only west coast nim person lol
22:12:42zacharycarter[m]are you in Raliegh? I know most of the tech stuff is down there
22:12:49FromGitter<kaushalmodi> Yes, close
22:13:14zacharycarter[m]nice! my parents moved down to OBX to retire - they are in Southern Shores
22:13:29zacharycarter[m]I guess you get the job @rayman22201 :P
22:13:33copygirlHey all! Long time no see <3
22:14:02zacharycarter[m]Hi copygirl :smile:
22:14:13FromGitter<rayman22201> Hahaha. I'll just have to get @Varriount to sleep on my couch!
22:14:29FromGitter<kaushalmodi> Pleasure chatting, signing out
22:14:33zacharycarter[m]:P
22:14:36FromGitter<rayman22201> What's up copygirl
22:14:42FromGitter<kaushalmodi> Driving home now
22:14:43copygirlI have a little question. I'm writing an iterator that will return the last X frame timings (calling cpuTime), but I want to make sure the argument doesn't exceed the maximum number of frames I'm recording this information of.
22:14:48zacharycarter[m]have a good evening @kaushalmodi !
22:14:51*xet7 quit (Quit: Leaving)
22:15:03copygirlIs there some way to verify this at compile time?
22:15:05FromGitter<kaushalmodi> zacharycarter: You too
22:15:24FromGitter<rayman22201> Good night @kaushalmodi
22:15:24copygirlOr, enforce, rather.
22:15:27zacharycarter[m]copygirl: I think you can limit a distinct type to a range
22:15:34copygirlI was thinking of using a subrange but not sure if that's overkill?
22:16:11zacharycarter[m]`type IndexRange = distinct range[-1 .. 1000]`
22:16:50copygirl(Also I'm picking up Nim for gamedev again. Wish me luck. I'll need lots of it, considering how many attempts I've launched already. :p)
22:16:59copygirlIs the distinct keyword necessary?
22:17:38zacharycarter[m]yes
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22:17:55zacharycarter[m]it's what lets the compiler knows that the type needs to be checked
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22:18:13zacharycarter[m]https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#types-distinct-type
22:18:49zacharycarter[m]I don't think you can do what you're describing without such some sort of extra distinction for the compiler
22:19:27copygirlhttps://nim-lang.org/docs/tut1.html#advanced-types-subranges
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22:19:50zacharycarter[m]but please pay attention to the borrow pragma section
22:19:58copygirlJust to make sure, it appears that the compile time check (where possible, I assume) seems to already be a property of subranges..?
22:20:22zacharycarter[m]yes - sorry I guess subranges are the shortcut to doing what you're describing
22:20:39zacharycarter[m]so i think it's probably a distinct type behind the scenes - I don't know for sure though
22:20:47zacharycarter[m]but yeah - I think it would get you the same result
22:21:06zacharycarter[m]unsure of semanticxs
22:21:06FromGitter<rayman22201> I think you just need subrange
22:21:12copygirlAlthough thinking of it... I don't think I need to pass a parameter.
22:21:35copygirlIt's an iterator so I can take up to a number of values from it and then stop!
22:21:41copygirlDerp.
22:22:05FromGitter<rayman22201> Lol. Cool
22:25:23copygirlThankfully I got a kickstart with this project by just reusing the code of my old one.
22:26:04copygirlAnd I'm not even disgusted by the choices I made then!
22:26:49FromGitter<rayman22201> That's the impressive part lol
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22:42:24dom96hah, seems someone in HN decided that my submission shouldn't have been demoted by the HN algorithm
22:43:18dom96dvn: Thanks! :)
22:43:37deependhey, new to nim just checking it out a bit and reading some code. Can anyone tell me what `magic` does here and where it came from? https://github.com/ba0f3/telebot.nim/blob/master/telebot/api.nim#L3
22:44:22dom96https://github.com/ba0f3/telebot.nim/blob/master/telebot/utils.nim#L212
22:44:41zacharycarter[m]deepend: magic = compiler intrinsics / builtins
22:44:42dom96deepend: It's defined inside the `utils` module
22:44:49dom96zacharycarter[m]: Not in this case
22:44:59deependahh, thanks
22:45:01zacharycarter[m]oh
22:45:11dom96The author of this package probably should have used a different name for this
22:45:33zacharycarter[m]dom96: any chance you have an answer to my compiler debugging question?
22:45:34dom96It does make the api module pretty though
22:45:51dom96zacharycarter[m]: link me to where you've asked it
22:45:56zacharycarter[m]sure
22:46:04copygirlIdk looks pretty magic to me.
22:46:06deependit's a bit confusing to me when the example is using newMessage command and I grep for newMessage and don't find it in the library?
22:46:58copygirlIt's confusing, but on the other hand, that's the nice thing about macros. Autogenerating code so you don't have to.
22:47:17dom96deepend: Which example?
22:47:18deependthat's pretty cool
22:47:24deependdom96: it's defined in the magic macro
22:47:34copygirlhttps://github.com/ba0f3/telebot.nim/blob/master/telebot/utils.nim#L231 This is where the newXYZ is created, I suppose.
22:47:52dom96deepend: can't find it :(
22:47:58deependcopygirl linked it
22:48:01zacharycarter[m]dom96: https://irclogs.nim-lang.org/07-08-2018.html#21:45:26
22:48:23dom96copygirl: ahh
22:48:49deependthis is wild haha
22:48:55dom96Indeed, that does make grepping difficult
22:49:26dom96Thankfully it's pretty easy to spot macro invokations though
22:49:59deependi've not had a chance to read the entire language spec yet
22:50:17zacharycarter[m]https://flenniken.net/blog/nim-macros/
22:50:24copygirlIf you just see "newMessage" with seemingly no definition, would you call it easy to spot / find where it's defined?
22:50:43zacharycarter[m]that's metaprogramming though...
22:51:01zacharycarter[m]you can't document an user-defined extension of something
22:51:05copygirl(Meant as a response to dom96's "easy to spot")
22:51:05zacharycarter[m]it's up to the end-user to document it
22:51:28zacharycarter[m]yeah - but it's easy to spot in the sense that it's one of three shapes of macros you can create in Nim
22:51:39zacharycarter[m]not that it's easy to spot in the sense that the user named it something you'd recognize
22:51:55zacharycarter[m]it's analogous to preprocessor directives in C
22:52:28copygirlHaven't used them but I have an okay understanding of macros.
22:52:41copygirl(preprocessor directives that is)
22:52:57zacharycarter[m]okay so like if you define your own preprocessor directive in C
22:53:03zacharycarter[m]it's up to you to document it / make it known
22:53:18zacharycarter[m]you can't expect the language to make it known for you, as it's an extension
22:53:58dom96copygirl: Fair point. But you're likely to end up looking for Message then and notice that it's defined using this weird `magic` thing :)
22:54:04copygirlMeanwhile I'm dreaming up a language where somehow, you code directly using AST nodes which evaluate to their proper value only when compiling starts. So you could write macros by just writing code and modifying AST nodes on the fly.
22:54:23copygirl[0, 1, 2].add(4) == [0, 1, 2, 4]
22:54:27zacharycarter[m]Nim has such features
22:54:27dom96Ideally Nim's nimsuggest should step in here
22:54:31zacharycarter[m]quote do
22:54:32zacharycarter[m]etc
22:54:39zacharycarter[m]templates
22:54:42copygirlWhether that ends up being a list or sequence or array depends on context.
22:54:44dom96And allow you to click on the newMessage identifier and take you to the macro definition
22:54:52dom96(or even better the line that creates the newMessage ident)
22:55:15*copygirl nods!
22:55:29zacharycarter[m]well arrays and sequences are easy to distinguish between in terms of necessity
22:55:37zacharycarter[m]you know at compile time
22:55:45zacharycarter[m]why do you need another semantic check?
22:55:49dom96But as with many things, with great power comes great responsibility
22:57:27copygirlYeah I think Nim already does a lot in that direction, just seems a little all over the place.
22:57:45dom96zacharycarter[m]: Regarding compiler debugging, I'm not really sure what your goal is
22:58:37copygirlLike it brings the right ideas to the table but for the sake of actually making something that runs, it ran with what it got..? If that makes sense. Definitely not talking down on Nim. I don't have the knowledge or experience to, anyway.
22:58:41zacharycarter[m]dom96: I'm trying to figure out how to start debugging - https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/8535
22:58:42dom96copygirl: We've still got time to sort that out, we just need people like you to give us feedback like this
22:58:46copygirlJust gut feelings, really.
22:59:03zacharycarter[m]dom96: apparently someone has already started doing this for me - but I'd like to learn how to debug compilation issues
22:59:05*stefanos82 joined #nim
22:59:12copygirlGotta look into quote do some more.
22:59:28copygirlSpeaking of, is there a way to "unpack" varargs?
22:59:54dom96copygirl: you mean like Python's *?
22:59:56copygirlLike can you write a macro that takes varargs and pass it to another without working with AST directly?
22:59:57stefanos82woot! Nim is #4 in HN :D
23:00:22dom96you can pass varargs to another proc/template that takes varargs
23:00:39copygirlWhat if you want to append/prepend something?
23:00:53copygirl(...args, value) or (value, ...args) ?
23:01:00dom96zacharycarter[m]: hrm, I don't think I can help much there
23:01:18copygirlI'm familiar with this from some JS dialects (long time ago tho).
23:01:35dom96don't think that's possible
23:01:36zacharycarter[m]btw - congrats araq, dom96, mratsim, zahary, arnetheduck etc...
23:01:54zacharycarter[m]I don't know all of you, but I <3 all of you
23:02:07FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Love Nim, love the devs, love the people.
23:02:09zacharycarter[m]dom96: roger, thanks for looking at it
23:02:11copygirlWhat's HN?
23:02:18FromGitter<kayabaNerve> HackerNews
23:02:18zacharycarter[m]hackernews
23:02:24FromDiscord<libman> Hacker News - https://news.ycombinator.com
23:02:25zacharycarter[m]news.ycombinator.com
23:02:26copygirlYou guys do deserve it.
23:02:41zacharycarter[m]oh I also <3 libman
23:02:48FromGitter<kayabaNerve> stefanos82: But are we No. 4 on HN and trashing Rust along the way? :thinking:
23:02:51zacharycarter[m]probably the most underrated nim community member ever
23:02:53FromDiscord<libman> Bah, humbug.
23:02:57FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Gitter needs :thinking::(
23:03:10FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I've never seen @libman before.
23:03:19FromGitter<kayabaNerve> From Discord though? Hello there, my friend.
23:03:46stefanos82@kayabaNerve: I didn't read any Rust trashing in the comments. Have I missed something while I was away?
23:03:48FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I left Discord just because I was on twelve servers already... too much to handle.
23:04:03FromGitter<kayabaNerve> No. I just like joking about declaring war on Rust people.
23:04:14FromDiscord<libman> Yeah, occasionally I crawl out of my self-imposed exile in a swamp and see if the Internet is as I remember it...
23:04:32FromGitter<kayabaNerve> One guy joined IRC asking to play GTA Online. I have no idea why he came here. I joked we should've sent him to #rust to play games...
23:04:43FromDiscord<libman> Trying Discord because listening to FreeTalkLive.com 😉
23:05:01stefanos82@kayabaNerve: that's quite immature I have to say...why bother starting such unnecessary thing? Use the right tool for the right job.
23:05:27FromGitter<kayabaNerve> stefanos82: I only do it in joking and have never actually acted out.
23:05:42zacharycarter[m]hahaha
23:05:44stefanos82bad taste mate, bad taste.
23:05:54FromGitter<kayabaNerve> I joked about it after he left. Even dom96 made a joke earlier....
23:06:05copygirl"internet is as I remember it" - uses Discord instead of IRC.
23:06:22zacharycarter[m]actually - there is one rust dev who I think really deserves some appreciation for his game dev talents
23:06:27FromGitter<kayabaNerve> @dom96 `"Nim partners with Status.im (Up yours Rust, j/k)"`
23:06:41FromGitter<kayabaNerve> It's harmless humor.
23:07:04FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Anyways.
23:07:16*yglukhov[i] joined #nim
23:07:16FromDiscord<libman> Did I explain the "why not Rust" point correctly on https://old.reddit.com/r/statusim/comments/95cgcj/status_partners_with_the_nim_team/ ?
23:07:37dom96On HN tomorrow: "Nim community HATES Rust, three shocking jokes that made Mozilla MAD"
23:07:42*eggy joined #nim
23:07:42zacharycarter[m]https://github.com/ozkriff/zemeroth
23:07:55stefanos82Rust has Mozilla behind it, Golang has Google, Swift has Apple...so, you get the idea.
23:08:24zacharycarter[m]libman: all you need to explain is that Java had memory safety
23:08:34FromDiscord<libman> (FreeTalkLive is at this very moment ranting about how MS Skype went eeevil so they're using Discord to take calls.)
23:08:42zacharycarter[m]all Rust adds is a huge learning curve to defeat NPE
23:09:02zacharycarter[m]and you might as well be writing C++
23:09:13dom96zacharycarter[m]: welll.....
23:09:16FromDiscord<libman> I can shoot myself in the foot in any language.
23:09:29copygirlFrom what I've seen, Rust has a very clear, valid goal.
23:09:52copygirlSome people are probably not using Rust as "intended", but then again, we have NodeJS.
23:10:02dom96Yeah, Rust is all about memory (and thread) safety with no runtime overhead
23:10:03zacharycarter[m]NodeJS sucks
23:10:20copygirlRust's standard library is quite nice. I found maybe types and all that pretty neat to work with.
23:10:25dom96It's a valid goal and props to them for achieving it so well
23:10:41zacharycarter[m]it's definitely not at a zero cost though
23:10:49zacharycarter[m]that's a fabrication / hype term
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23:11:00dom96It's at a zero runtime cost
23:11:05dom96There are other costs
23:11:07zacharycarter[m]yeah
23:11:11zacharycarter[m]they should refer to it as that
23:11:12dom96The learning curve being a big one
23:11:29zacharycarter[m]+1
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23:11:50copygirlFrom what I heard they're making it easier to get into by hiding all the lifetime and ownership checking - making it less explicit. But I haven't checked in a while.
23:11:59zacharycarter[m]theres a quote somewhere in the nim docs I love about abstractions
23:12:15copygirl(And then there's other people complaining that Rust is going the wrong way.)
23:12:24zacharycarter[m]an abstraction is an abstraction is an abstraction...
23:13:05zacharycarter[m]looks a lot like C++ to me
23:13:06zacharycarter[m]Rust2015
23:13:08zacharycarter[m]Rust2018
23:13:16copygirlI can't wait to make my own language which nobody will understand.
23:13:22stefanos82personally I like the newest C++, especially C++17
23:13:31stefanos82much cleaner and simpler to use
23:13:32zacharycarter[m]oh and we've gained webassembly and rust! so a standardized macromedia flash!
23:13:54zacharycarter[m]you'll like c++17 until you can't port it anywhere
23:13:58copygirlHow are you comparing those two to Flash?
23:14:19zacharycarter[m]wasm = flash
23:14:21zacharycarter[m]with a standardized spec
23:14:29dom96I feel like webassembly is something that will be used everywhere within a few years
23:14:32FromDiscord<libman> More like Java Applets.
23:14:41dom96And I wish I knew how to take advantage of this prediction
23:14:45zacharycarter[m]or that
23:15:04zacharycarter[m]dom96: llvm
23:15:06dom96Sorry but I disagree with that. WebAsm is nowhere close to flash
23:15:22zacharycarter[m]binaries on the web - how is it not?
23:15:37zacharycarter[m]it's just not run by adobe
23:16:11dom96The key difference is that it's not proprietary
23:16:15zacharycarter[m]but like libman said: it's closer to Java applets than anything
23:16:26dom96Another difference is that it doesn't reinvent the web in a non-standard manner
23:16:32zacharycarter[m]yeah - I get that - but the point is, we've been here before
23:16:38dom96It's just a way to speed up JS
23:16:44zacharycarter[m]maybe
23:16:51stefanos82zacharycarter[m]: more and more companies are adapting to the latest C++ standards, especially those companies that sell IoT devices
23:16:53zacharycarter[m]wasm doesn't always = faster
23:17:00FromDiscord<libman> If Java was freely licensed, we'd have wasm in 1995.
23:17:20zacharycarter[m]stefanos82: and game devs are still writing in C89 . C++11
23:17:37stefanos82you mean C99 and C++11
23:17:41zacharycarter[m]yes
23:17:57stefanos82well, I know people who use C# for game development as well
23:18:02zacharycarter[m]portability is meaningful
23:18:20zacharycarter[m]and they are dealing with large runtimes
23:18:27zacharycarter[m]like mono
23:18:29FromGitter<rayman22201> Up to 3 on HN! Woo-hoo!
23:18:45zacharycarter[m]:tada:
23:19:32zacharycarter[m]dom96: native JS is often faster than asm.js or wasm
23:19:47zacharycarter[m]it's one of those - optimize when warrants it - things
23:20:24dom96Citation needed
23:20:31zacharycarter[m]sec
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23:21:56zacharycarter[m]https://medium.com/samsung-internet-dev/performance-testing-web-assembly-vs-javascript-e07506fd5875
23:22:19zacharycarter[m]analysis section is most relevant
23:23:20dom96Interesting
23:23:52dom96I wonder what the reasoning for this is
23:23:59zacharycarter[m]yeah - I think the thing with wasm is - offload cpu intensive tasks to it
23:24:10zacharycarter[m]things you wouldn't normally do in JS
23:24:22zacharycarter[m]or you wouldn't do in JS if you had a choice not to
23:24:51zacharycarter[m]but JS may very well outperform wasm currently, because of all the FFI
23:27:42WarbucksAnyone tried: Make mapIt work on openArray's (#8543) ?
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23:32:01stefanos82folks, #2! :D
23:33:14*Warbucks left #nim (#nim)
23:33:31dom9670 active users on nim-lang.org right now :)
23:35:24FromGitter<rayman22201> 💥🎉
23:36:11stefanos82I see 150 as total
23:39:03dom96IRC isn't nim-lang.org
23:40:22dom96'night
23:40:32FromDiscord<libman> http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&chat=nim is behind?
23:42:27stefanos82dom96: oops, I thought it was about IRC lol.
23:42:31stefanos82sleep well mate
23:43:03FromDiscord<libman> https://NIMiq.com (JS) might cause confusion...
23:44:00*noonien quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
23:54:49zacharycarter[m]also - is there a reason nim is used in all the status projects as a prefix (or something similar)
23:56:01zacharycarter[m]https://github.com/status-im?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=nim&type=&language=
23:56:10zacharycarter[m]seems like it might distract from Nim related search results