<< 09-09-2013 >>
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03:11:33MFlamercan I set the value at any memory location like this "address[] = value"?
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13:48:29Araq_hi nox__, welcome
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14:26:28rndbitAraq today i had a dream of you saying on IRC that you gonna rewrite nimrod from scratch to make it more python-like instead of pascal-like :D
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16:51:04Araqrndbit: what does that even mean? "def" instead of "proc"? worse scoping rules? crippling lambdas? turning back the time to when Nimrod had no stmt/expr unification?
16:51:40Araqbroken default parameters?
16:51:42rndbithey dont ask me, i know idea is retarded :D
16:52:01Araqgood :-)
16:52:02rndbitguess its just my later disappointment speaking through dreams :)
16:53:10rndbitinitially it was like "omg its small! it compiles to native code! its flexible! its awesome!" and later on "oh noez its like pascal! i hate pascal! /suicide" :DDD
16:54:41AraqPascal and Modula 3 had an influence on Python too so ... blaming Nimrod that it had the same influences makes no sense
16:56:57rndbitnot blaming anything, im sure there are people who love it, like russians love pascal ^_^ but im no russian :D
17:00:47Araqso ... what is it that you miss from Python?
17:01:21Hannibal_SmithGIL!
17:02:36Hannibal_SmithAraq, probably Nimrod in future will miss a thing coming from Python: yield for async operation
17:03:11Hannibal_SmithSeems like also js will get it
17:03:22Araqfunny dom96 is working on that ...
17:03:35Hannibal_SmithIt's a great news
17:03:45Araqit's in fact old news ;-)
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17:05:27Hannibal_SmithPersonally, I find a language for "getting things done fast"...without anything remarkable
17:05:36Hannibal_Smith*I find Python
17:06:34Hannibal_SmithBut I'm only a student, so Is a little important opinion
17:08:25companion_cubedepends on whether you want to get things done fast, or working fast
17:08:31companion_cubethe latter is harder
17:08:49Hannibal_SmithIt's impossible with Python
17:09:01Hannibal_SmithGetting fast in Python is write a C module
17:09:06Hannibal_SmithAnd use it from Python
17:17:17rndbitAraq i miss from python (and cython) only syntax, nothing more, nothing less :D
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17:17:24Mat2hi all
17:17:29rndbitHannibal_Smith or execute it on pypy :p
17:17:32Hannibal_SmithHI Mat2
17:17:35rndbithey Mat2 \o/
17:17:50Hannibal_Smithrndbit, the Python dictator said that he don't like PyPy
17:17:50Mat2hi Hannibal_Smith and rndbit
17:18:39AraqI think Guido said nothing like that, Hannibal_Smith
17:19:05AraqMat2: answer this guy please: http://forum.nimrod-code.org/t/232 ;-)
17:19:07Hannibal_SmithAraq, you remember better than me, what he said about PyPy?
17:19:28Araqhe said he prefers to work on the C implementation because that's what he knows best
17:19:34Mat2hi Araq
17:19:37Mat2ehm ok
17:20:10Araqrndbit: what syntax in particular? you might be able to fake it with a template/macro ...
17:20:19rndbitpython dictator also said that he is unconvinced of pypy because of it's lack of support for existing python codebase, that is native modules mainly
17:20:23Hannibal_Smith---PyPy
17:20:24Hannibal_Smithby Btrot69
17:20:24Hannibal_SmithDo you see PyPy as the future? Or do you remain unconvinced, and -- if so -- why ?
17:20:24Hannibal_SmithGuido: I'm still unconvinced, for two reasons: (a) they don't support Python 3 (well) yet, and (b) there are lots of extension modules (both third party and in the standard library) that they don't support well. But I hope they'll fix those issues. I think it's competition from projects like PyPy, Jython and IronPython that keeps the CPython project honest and on its toes.
17:20:25Hannibal_Smith---
17:20:42Hannibal_Smithrndbit, yes
17:21:20Hannibal_SmithI interpret his: "that keeps the CPython project honest and on its toe"
17:21:45Hannibal_SmithAs "I don't like how the others are doing, CPython will be the way to go"
17:21:58rndbitAraq think "proc createWindow(x, y, width, height: int; title: string; show: bool): Window =" can be turned to something like "proc Window createWindow(x, y, width, int height, string title, bool show):"?
17:22:12rndbitHannibal_Smith you are imagining things :D
17:22:19Hannibal_Smithrndbit, probably
17:22:42rndbitwhat he said is that competition is good for everyone, lack of monopoly makes things move forward and makes projects do their best
17:23:09rndbitand hell.. always everyone loves his own brainchild more than someone else's :)
17:23:11Hannibal_SmithDo you think that Python will ever get an official jit compiler?
17:23:33companion_cubeHannibal_Smith: by "fast" I mean the programmer's time
17:23:49rndbitnot in the near future if ever... seems jit and no gil is not the way of cpython sadly..
17:23:56Araqrndbit: no but "type ident" declaration syntax has nothing to do with Python
17:24:38rndbitbut its how cython and c handles eeet.. :D
17:26:52AraqGuido himself proposed def f(a: int, b: int) -> int as syntax
17:27:35rndbitomg what a fag :\
17:28:32rndbit-> int is worst ever, why would he take that from c++...
17:29:02Araqlol lots of languages have '->' and it comes right from math ...
17:29:32rndbitcall me a typing nazi but if there is one symbol to save i think it must be saved
17:29:46rndbitint a vs a: int, see 1 redundant symbol overhead
17:30:25AraqPython has a superfluous ':' for control flow structures already ...
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17:31:35rndbitoh another thing in nimrod that weirded me out is class type declarations
17:31:39Araqalso since types are optional the ':' is not redundant
17:33:25rndbit"type \n TPerson = object of TObject" vs "object TPerson(TObject)", second variant looks much more readable, simple, and less stuff to type
17:33:40Hannibal_SmithWell, I think that "nobody" will choice a language based on a less : to type
17:34:15rndbittrue, im not gonna quit py if they introduce that syntax..
17:34:19rndbitafterall its optional >:)
17:34:31AraqHannibal_Smith: how do you think everybody ended up using C? :P
17:34:37Hannibal_Smithrndbit, I did quit Python...because is dynamic
17:34:52Hannibal_SmithAraq, I'm too young for know this
17:35:05rndbitdynamic os good, i like being able to do ninja stuff
17:35:19AraqHannibal_Smith: I'm not serious anyway
17:35:39Hannibal_SmithWhat were C contenders? Lisp?
17:36:02Hannibal_SmithOr Pascal?
17:36:05Araqvarious broken Pascal dialects
17:36:17rndbitAraq can nimrod somehow preprocess sources before compiling using regular expressions? im pretty crafty in them so i could probably make things nice for myself if it was possible :D
17:36:29Hannibal_SmithI don't know anything about Pascal
17:37:05Araqrndbit: the parsers are easily pluggable or you can write a source code filter
17:37:11dom96rndbit: It sounds like you want C/C++.
17:37:36Araqit requires touching the compiler, but don't let that stop you
17:37:44dom96Personally, I find 'type x' disgustingly c-like.
17:37:54rndbitdom96 and im using c++, but im always exploring for new crazy ways to achieve teh goals!
17:38:08rndbitand why c-like is bad?
17:38:26Araqbecause it is ambiguous
17:38:30rndbithell c seems rather nice, c++ is where things got weird bit by bit
17:38:42Araqnope
17:38:46rndbitwhy is it ambiguous?
17:38:53AraqC has already lots grammar problems
17:38:55Hannibal_SmithAraq, well...in Nimrod field and methods can be ambiguous...
17:38:56dom96writing the type first feels backward
17:39:30AraqHannibal_Smith: that's not a grammatical ambiguity
17:39:43dom96var x = 5 is nicer than auto x = 5
17:39:47Hannibal_SmithMaybe because I'm used to write more in C style
17:40:07dom96'let' also works nicely, instead of having to prefix the 'auto' with 'const' or whatever
17:40:20rndbityup auto is one more retarded thing in c++... i even have #define var auto in my projects :D
17:40:23Hannibal_Smithdom96, yes
17:40:32Araqrndbit: (a) * b # cast and deref or a multiplication?
17:40:55dom96yeah, C is crazy.
17:41:14dom96You need tools to tell you what a type means in plain English.
17:41:29rndbitAraq i thought you said type declarations in func parameters are ambiguous ^_^
17:42:24rndbitand well yeah in that case... it may seem ambiguous in case programmer has type a, usually types can be distinguished from variables though
17:42:28Hannibal_SmithPersonally, I'm got curious about Nimrod, because separation from type and function
17:42:45Hannibal_SmithIt remembered me how I learned a bit of Haskell
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17:43:23Hannibal_SmithI also find STL in C++ a great way to write code...
17:43:50Hannibal_SmithSo I viewed Nimrod as a more "native" way to write code similar to STL
17:44:04rndbitstl is far from perfect
17:44:18Hannibal_SmithI personally like the concept behind it
17:44:35rndbitif you want to have some nightmares check out stl implementations :D
17:44:57rndbitstlport is said to be a nicer one, but stl that comes with msvc is just... well idk how they maintain it
17:45:12Hannibal_SmithSomething I do...and it not so difficult leaving allocators apart
17:46:15Hannibal_SmithWhen in the STL GCC source there is an iteration with an allocator, I get lost
17:48:01Hannibal_SmithAraq, there was some "what to code" that you visioned, when you projected Nimrod?
17:48:12Hannibal_Smith*way to code
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17:53:52Hannibal_SmithLittle OT: I leaved Haskell because I didn't understand some concept like monad, I was thinking "Ok, all the do in wrap what a function return, and control flow based on the wrapped value"
17:54:00Mat2hi dom96
17:54:04Hannibal_SmithBut it seems more than this
17:54:21dom96hi Mat2
17:54:22Mat2monads hold state
17:54:29rndbitAraq also "discard yes("May I ask a pointless question?")" VERY dedundant... i think its obvious that if value is not assigned its not required thus it should be discarded
17:54:55Hannibal_SmithMat2, I used to view a monad as
17:55:09Hannibal_SmithIt create a wrapper around the functions
17:55:23Araqrndbit: I don't care what you think about a feature that uncovered lots of bugs in practice
17:55:35Hannibal_SmithSo function can take more parameters, like a state
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17:55:45rndbitjust saying, sorry
17:56:01Hannibal_SmithAnd return always a wrapped value, that the monad know
17:56:13Hannibal_SmithAnd can do control flow based on it
17:56:34Hannibal_SmithBut it resulted that is wrong, because monad can do more than this
17:57:36Hannibal_SmithI did understand things like monad stacking
17:57:49Hannibal_SmithBut than I stopped to understand
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17:57:57Araqrndbit: sorry, I was overly harsh. But my point is: opinion loses against hard facts. ;-)
17:58:38Araqand 'discard' makes perfect sense; you cannot simply leave out parameters either, so why is the return value special?
17:58:50rndbitcould you explain how it uncovered lots of bugs? that sounds intriguing but i have no idea how could it..
17:59:18Araqyou change the signature of a proc, so now it returns something
17:59:30Araqthe compiler tells you you don't do anything with the result
17:59:32Hannibal_SmithThe discard is something that looked not good to a person that i advised to look at Nimrod
17:59:41rndbitah that, gotcha
18:00:05rndbitbut at the same time i can imagine how without good IDE changing signature and adding a return value could be a big pita
18:00:16rndbitimagine big project and function being used in hundres of places
18:00:30Araqso read about {.discardable.} ...
18:00:43AraqHannibal_Smith: tell him about discardable
18:00:52Hannibal_SmithOk, I will do
18:01:15rndbityeah i saw it, someone like me would just use it all over the place i guess :D
18:02:24rndbitalright was nice talking to you fine people. gotta run for breaking bad session. laterz
18:02:25Hannibal_SmithAraq, he also didn't like things like $, mutable string, the fact that compiler can't deduct argument type from definition...
18:02:32Hannibal_SmithThings like that
18:03:13Araqargument type deduction is planned but of low priority but yeah, the guy should just stick to Haskell
18:03:23Hannibal_SmithHe don't like Haskell
18:03:30Hannibal_SmithHe is a seasoned Python programmer
18:05:30Hannibal_SmithAh, he also said that he don't like how import import all names of the module
18:05:46Mat2I think he is attracted of duck typing and so called, dynamic typing
18:06:16Araqit's fine to dislike Nimrod, Hannibal_Smith; it's better to have some arguments though
18:06:50Hannibal_SmithPersonally, I find thing like mutable string ok
18:07:09Hannibal_SmithIn C++, they aren't a problem for me
18:07:16dom96And Python doesn't have mutable strings?
18:07:20Hannibal_SmithNo
18:09:14AraqPython only has objects, Nimrod only has mutable value based data types. Somebody could notice it's done mostly for consistency. I guess it's too hard to get for most people ...
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18:10:20Hannibal_SmithAraq, well immutable string is a must have in a language where in reality you work with pointers, like Java, Python and C#
18:10:54dom96I think you can get immutable strings by using 'let'
18:11:08Araqdom96: you do, kind of
18:12:10*dom96 tries to think back how he managed to use Python without mutable strings
18:12:34AraqHannibal_Smith: immutable strings are nice until you start to optimize your code
18:13:23Hannibal_SmithI'm too new to Nimrod to say something, but in C++ is not a problem
18:13:50Hannibal_SmithYou can tell easily when you copy, or passing around pointers/reference
18:14:57Hannibal_SmithIn Python, Java, C# it's hard/impossible to copy something
18:18:20AraqHannibal_Smith: I tried to port python's docutils RST parser once. It was easier to start from scratch. So much for Python's maintainability/readability. As soon as you have a complex piece of code, it falls down very quickly.
18:18:56Hannibal_SmithI worked on a 5k socket server written in Python
18:19:12Hannibal_SmithWithout a good unit testing suite (3x kloc of the project)
18:19:36Hannibal_SmithIs not viable having a dynamic language even in "middle size" project
18:21:31Hannibal_SmithI don't really understand people using nodejs, for example
18:22:43Hannibal_SmithI decided to learn only a single dynamic language, to use only where it make sense, javascript
18:22:58fowlbecause nodejs is faster than c duh
18:23:01Hannibal_SmithAnd leave alone Python, Ruby, Clojure and so on
18:23:16AraqHannibal_Smith: a wise move but Nimrod compiles to JS ;-)
18:23:28Hannibal_SmithAraq, actually I like js!
18:23:42Araqtell me you're kidding :P
18:23:45Hannibal_SmithBut I wouldn't use it for anything complex
18:24:11Hannibal_SmithNo, I used to translate example from SICP book from Sheme to Js (not always possible)
18:24:16Hannibal_SmithAnd worked good
18:25:20Hannibal_SmithAhhh
18:25:22Hannibal_Smith*Scheme
18:29:48Hannibal_SmithAh another thing that made me leave Haskell is debugging
18:29:56Hannibal_SmithYou have to use the interpreter...
18:30:10Hannibal_SmithAnd debug a software there "time is not important"
18:30:14Hannibal_SmithIs not good
18:30:35companion_cubeyou shouldn't need much debugging in haskell
18:31:49Hannibal_SmithI'm not really sold how you can do debugging without a debugger
18:32:03Hannibal_SmithGHCi is for sure not gdb
18:32:27companion_cubethere is a trace function, and most bugs should be caught by the type system or tests
18:32:54Hannibal_Smithcompanion_cube, turns that you have to use unsafeIO for tracing
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18:33:06companion_cubeor debug.trace
18:33:09companion_cubesomething like this
18:33:24companion_cubetrace :: String -> a -> a
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18:34:11Hannibal_SmithFor some reason, I didn't use this one...
18:34:29Hannibal_SmithBut I can't recall why
18:35:18Hannibal_SmithI remembed things like trace not called at call...but if people uses that
18:35:26Hannibal_SmithProbably I did something wrong
18:35:56companion_cubeHannibal_Smith: may be because of lazyness
18:36:02Hannibal_SmithYes
18:36:06Hannibal_Smithtrace is not IO
18:36:14Hannibal_SmithSo GHC can optimize it
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18:36:32Hannibal_SmithBut there is a trace
18:36:39Hannibal_SmithI think that it should work
18:36:47Hannibal_Smith*but if there is a trace
18:37:46companion_cubeit does IO, I think ghc doesn't remove it
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18:38:30Hannibal_SmithAnd lastly, I couldn't leave the fact that I can't understand how will GHC optimize my code
18:38:57Hannibal_SmithAnd understand where a code that looks slow, is fast
18:39:39Hannibal_SmithMaybe some later...but at the moment I don't think that is good for me to re try Haskell
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19:41:30orbitzfamiliar faces!
19:41:48companion_cubelooks so
19:53:02io2yeah but I got here first orbitz...
19:53:04io2:)
19:55:04dom96I was here first!
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20:01:08io2you were here since the dawn of time dom96
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20:10:44Mat2ciao
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20:11:14dom96io2: oh no, I was here before that :P
20:28:12io2lol
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22:17:29BitPuffindom96: We should set up a nimrod/jester docker E)
22:17:31BitPuffin:)*
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22:18:34Araqhi BitPuffin
22:18:53BitPuffinhey there Araq, what's up
22:19:15Araqinterested in wrapping Qt or wxWidgets with c++2nim?
22:19:35BitPuffinyeah for sure, but not right now :( busy
22:20:05BitPuffinthat would be really fantastic though
22:20:49Araqwell I nearly finished c++2nim
22:20:55BitPuffinAraq: That is great
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22:21:43BitPuffinAraq: So basically your plan is that "if we can bind QT, we can bind anything" ?
22:21:52BitPuffins/plan/reasoning
22:22:10Araqno the plan is "Qt is popular" ;-)
22:22:23Araq"and not full of template magic"
22:22:58BitPuffinisn't it super full of template magic?
22:23:04*BitPuffin believes it is
22:23:21Araqwell I know for sure wxWidgets isn't
22:23:31BitPuffinwxWidgets is cool though
22:24:53BitPuffinAraq: Does module local cpp flags work yet?
22:25:11Araqno and it's not so easy
22:25:17BitPuffinI can imagine
22:25:25Araqexception handling differs in the 2 modes
22:25:33BitPuffinOh yeah?
22:25:57BitPuffinBut.. C++ is backwards compatible with C, so why can't it work the same way?
22:26:15AraqC backend uses a setjmp based implemenation, C++ backend uses c++'s native exception mechanism
22:26:51AraqI guess in "mixed mode" both should use the setjmp based implementation
22:27:04Araqhmm yeah.... that would work
22:27:35BitPuffinI suppose
22:27:45BitPuffinI mean it wouldn't break any cpp code calling nimrod would it?
22:27:50Trixar_zaWt is sexy
22:27:53Trixar_zaer, Qt
22:28:00*Trixar_za strokes up to it
22:28:20Trixar_zaMy precious...
22:28:34BitPuffinIt's not THAT good :P
22:29:31Trixar_zaAs far as I know, the gnome guys are making a way to interface Qt within GNOME a long side GTK
22:29:44Trixar_zaAlso Wayland and Mir supports it pretty well
22:29:47BitPuffinBut being able to use it with nimrod should definitely be able to generate some buzz
22:30:30Trixar_zaWell, Qt5 anyway
22:30:56BitPuffinYeah Qt5 would probably be the way to go
22:30:57Trixar_zaProbably because the KDE guys are moving to Wayland anyway
22:31:06BitPuffinAraq: We should also bind the Haiku API :P
22:33:58Araqdoes haiku use namespaces?
22:34:09BitPuffinAraq: Don't think so, not sure though
22:34:25BitPuffinI will ask
22:37:50BitPuffinTrixar_za: are you still running haiku? :)
22:39:52Trixar_zaOn the one drive, but I haven't logged into it in a few days
22:42:30Araqzahary: why did you enable --gc:markAndSweep ?
22:49:06NimBotAraq/Nimrod master e21da41 Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: added 'newLit'
22:49:06NimBotAraq/Nimrod master df64edb Araq [+1 ±7 -0]: cn2im: basic C++ support
22:49:06NimBotAraq/Nimrod master 09c3c01 Araq [+0 ±3 -0]: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:Araq/Nimrod
22:49:06NimBotAraq/Nimrod master 6bcb55a Araq [+0 ±2 -0]: disabled M&S GC again
22:51:45Araqgood night
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23:29:59reactormonkwhat's the correct syntax for proc relevantClients(): seq[TClient] = clientList().filter(relevantForTiling) ?
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23:56:47reactormonkoh, import sequtils
23:57:46reactormonk[10] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: filter_32087
23:57:47reactormonkblubb
23:59:37reactormonkdead code elimination gone wrong?