<< 09-09-2014 >>
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00:02:27DiffuseStormoh whoops I didn't realize cstringarray was an array of strings.
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00:07:15Araqgood night
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00:13:36willwillsonwhat's the new naming convention for a constructor?
00:13:39DiffuseStormIn that case I just need a cstring from a string and take the address of that cstring. Is there a way to get a pointer to the start of the contiguous memory string has?
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00:14:34DiffuseStormoh ofc maybe thats breaking all kinds of rules because its garbage collected
00:17:10NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak dd33069 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±3 -0]: Implements getCurrentException for try in async procs. Ref #1487.
00:17:10NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 56f11e2 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±3 -0]: Fixes async tests.
00:17:39dom96DiffuseStorm: addr str[0]
00:17:54dom96willwillson: I don't think there is any new convention.
00:18:12dom96initT for value types, newT for ref types
00:18:21willwillsonthanks
00:19:55dom96good night
00:20:04willwillsonnight
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02:16:40DiffuseStormI have an enum that's redefining some stuff, can I put it behind a "namespace", are there such concepts? (Like c++'s enum class, or c#'s enum)
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02:21:53flaviuDiffuseStorm: Example code of what you want?
02:22:05flaviuQualified enums are done with the {.pure.} pragma
02:22:14DiffuseStormenumName.Member, instead of accessing Member directly
02:22:24flaviuYeah, use the pure pragma then
02:23:41DiffuseStormworked, great
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02:46:37fowlany criticisms before i buy this http://pcpartpicker.com/p/TW9cBm
02:48:08fowlwrong chan
02:54:01flaviufowl: Get an ssd too?
02:54:56flaviuMemory is a bit on the low side too, you only have 2 slots, so you can't upgrade easily later
02:55:38fowli will ssd later
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04:28:00fowlhhh trying to build bigbreak with 0.9.4
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06:46:15filwitfowl: what's the problem?
06:48:05filwitfowl: you have to reclone the csources, you have to run bin/nim (instead of bin/nimrod) and make sure your project's cfg files are now nim.cfg
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10:44:39NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 4db6535 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±3 -0]: Fixes for new comment handling.
10:44:39NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 4fc8fcf Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Mentioned new comment handling in news.txt.
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13:23:32EXetoCdoes byRef do anything now? my destructor is being called with and without it
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14:03:46DiffuseStormHaving a union as an object which must have a name is really awkward for inclusion within another object. objectInstance.union.size.width
14:03:55DiffuseStormAny way around it?
14:08:51EXetoCa proc?
14:10:00DiffuseStormhuh? The c/c++ name for it is an anonymous union
14:10:22DiffuseStormoh a getter proc, hmm
14:13:59EXetoCand then you have variants, which might be preferable
14:14:15EXetoCsometimes even when interfacing with C, if the layout matches
14:15:40EXetoCthey can't replace it for all use cases though
14:16:05DiffuseStormahh I've yet to learn about variants, time to do so.
14:22:26dom96EXetoC: why would byref affect destructors?
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14:25:38EXetoCdom96: because said object will never be passed by-copy
14:25:54EXetoC*by-value
14:31:24EXetoCso no temporary should be created. I'll report it. it seems like a bug
14:37:39Joe_knockThe discussions about Nimrod on HN are interesting. The rust guys always seem to want to do language battles.
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14:56:35dom96Yeah. It's nice to see that people are interested, perhaps the fact that we are on HN less often than Go and Rust fuels people's curiosity.
14:59:27bogenI gave up on Rust when after letting something sit for few months and then updated I found so many things did not work the same, so I'd have to fix my code. After a few rounds of that, no more...
14:59:57bogenI like a lot of Rust's concepts
15:00:15dom96oh. I hope that you will survive Nimrod's bigbreak branch then.
15:00:51bogenI hope so as well, but from what I'm hearing I don't know if there will be many breaking changes for me
15:01:00bogenplus, all my code is in infancy
15:01:05bogen(my nim code)
15:01:16dom96Yeah. Also Araq is writing a tool to fix the code.
15:01:27bogenI went through the breaking changes several times with Rust
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15:02:19bogenbut but it was also not those changes, the kind of stuff I want to do I can do easily in Nim
15:02:32bogen(metacompilation stuff)
15:02:57bogenin Nim what is a few line macro in Rust is a few pages of code
15:03:38dom96Interesting. I haven't personally tried Rust's macros yet, I guess I really should.
15:03:55dom96But i've got barely enough time for nim nowadays :\
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15:04:35bogencs should not break me. I've been spelling stuff from libraries exactly like it is in the Library
15:05:33bogenin other words, I've been totally ignoring the fact the Nim is case/style insensitive on symbol names, and treating it as if it were sensitive
15:06:00bogenand I've not been using strong spaces
15:11:50bogenI've been watching the bigbreak discussions, I'm not concerned
15:12:47dom96that's good
15:17:46bogenwell, I need to head to work. ttyl
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15:59:13NimBotnimrod-code/babel master 3c1248c Dominik Picheta [+0 ±2 -0]: Use Nim binary if it exists.
16:05:07Joe_knockHave any of you seen the "myth of the genius programmer"?
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17:52:36Araqhi francisl welcome
17:57:58EXetoCso Rust < 1.0 is breaking stuff? what a surprise
17:59:07EXetoCcan't reproduce the dtor bug of course
18:03:54AraqEXetoC: I plan to delay destructors after 1.0 is out
18:09:33EXetoCwell you could just tag them as such, but I'll just store some test cases again
18:10:24EXetoCwhat bugs are you aware of? I know there are limitations. will the destructor pragma remain and the argument to 'new' go away?
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18:11:41AraqEXetoC: well the implementation needs to be rewritten completely pretty much
18:14:14EXetoCok
18:15:21Araqalso I'd like to play with escape analysis and destructors are affected
18:17:30EXetoCgot it
18:18:20EXetoCbjz: you never watched this episode of C&D? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgrX7uOZqHI (the front fell of, 1990)
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18:24:25Trixar_zaAnother South African?
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18:25:26francislaraq: Hi, thank you
18:25:41AraqJoe_knock: I skimmed it
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18:25:52Araqwhat about it?
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18:26:42EXetoCborked connection
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18:31:29Araqugh ... getting nimfix to work properly seems as hard as the "complex" disambiguation for foo vs Foo
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18:32:06Araqmaybe cs:partial is not necessary and we shouldn't break backwards compatibility that much
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18:47:52Araqdom96: dialogs.nim should be a babel package, but it either depends on gtk2 or windows.nim
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18:47:56Araqhow do we handle this?
18:48:09Araqadd both dependencies to its babel file?
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18:48:27dom96yes
18:48:51Araqmakes sense since I might want to cross-compile, I guess
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18:49:18dom96true
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18:49:40dom96We can let users specify the OS in later Nimble versions.
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18:50:56francislthe link on the home page for the roadmap point to an empty wiki page, is that correct?
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18:51:05dom96Araq: What's that switch to tell me what is un-gcsafe?
18:51:24Araq--threadAnalysis:off
18:51:37Araqfrancisl: er ... no. let me have a look
18:51:55dom96Araq: No, how do I enable the extra hints?
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18:52:10Araqah damn I renamed the page
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18:52:38Araqfrancisl: it is here now: https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/wiki/Roadmap
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18:54:01Araqdom96: --warning[GcUnsafe]:on
18:54:07dom96Araq: thanks
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18:55:19dom96...ok --threadAnalysis:off it is
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18:58:23AraqJoe_knock: please fix your connection
18:58:50Joe_knockAraq: I give up with freenode. I will logout in 5 mins. apologies.
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19:08:38willwillsonis float 64bit on 32bit arch?
19:09:22Araqit's always 64bit
19:09:30willwillsonthanks
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20:22:42Araqdom96: do you agree on http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/549 ?
20:23:25dom96which part?
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20:23:35Araqmy latest reply
20:23:46Joe_knockAraq: Am I ok now?
20:23:50Joe_knockTest?
20:23:58Joe_knockIs freenode throwing me off?
20:24:08AraqJoe_knock: looks like you're ok
20:24:31dom96Joe_knock: if it happens again you may be able to get some help in #freenode
20:24:54dom96Araq: i'll have to read graydon's blog post I guess
20:25:13Joe_knockdom96: I am running through the amsterdam server. I think the irc.freenode.net server gets hit a lot.
20:25:29Araqso ... what about genius programmers, Joe_knock ?
20:26:06Fr4n* Joe_knock has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
20:26:15Joe_knockAraq: dom96: Yes, good that you're both here.
20:26:16Fr4nit means your client is spamming
20:26:41Araqlol, thank you!
20:26:42Joe_knockFr4n: It was throwing me off by itself.
20:27:19dom96Fr4n: I think it means that the client is sent messages faster than it can receive it.
20:27:22Araqbut we're not geniuses ... ok, maybe dom96 is ... :-)
20:27:45dom96Araq: If anyone is a genius it is you kind sir :)
20:31:17Joe_knockAraq, dom96: I didn't watch the entire video, but there was an interesting mention about something (I can't recall the exact name) along the lines of programmer productivity. Where if one of the 2-5 nimrod geniuses disappears on sabbatical, the codebase might get stuck.
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20:33:26AraqJoe_knock: nim's bus factor is 3-4 afaict. this is not good, but you'd be surprised how low this number is for other open source projects
20:34:56Joe_knockAraq: Thanks for intuitively knowing what I was referring to. Yes, bus factor is the right word. Hopefully I am going to change that by contributing to some of dom96s projects, with a ton of comments for those gtk examples and web-framework code.
20:36:19dom96Joe_knock: awesome :D
20:37:14dom96brb
20:37:15Joe_knockdom96: I liked how you mentioned that you've played a significant role here. Being small does its advantages for early-adopters.
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20:39:28EXetoCFr4n: some website said it had to do with the inability to receive messages quickly enough
20:39:44EXetoCoh
20:39:52EXetoCshould've read on
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20:41:35EXetoCAraq: more than 2 people are actually able to extend the language?
20:44:19EXetoCJoe_knock: the 'bus' would be the compiler though, right? still, it's nice to get more devs obviously
20:44:34EXetoCno that's not right at all
20:45:07EXetoCyou can indeed not get killed by the compiler
20:45:11EXetoCyou know what I mean :p
20:47:12EXetoChow common are the characters o, l and .? those keys are starting to break or something
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20:49:19AraqEXetoC: zahary, Jehan, me makes 3. others are able to hack the compiler too
20:50:11Araqbut it's an open question what really happens if I get hit by a bus
20:50:51perturbation...become more powerful than was ever thought possible?
20:51:44EXetoCremember to look left and right twice before crossing
20:51:45Joe_knockI suppose compiler and language design choices would both be 5 or less, EXetoC
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20:54:28AraqEXetoC: "being able to hack the compiler" is unfortunately not nearly enough. one also needs plenty of free time...
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20:56:43Araqbut hey, if the technology is important enough that you make money with it, you can always hire a guy who can maintain a compiler, right?!
20:57:52Araqit's not like the compiler uses *any* advanced algorithms anyway
20:58:03AraqSSA representation? nope.
20:58:10Araqnative code generation? nope.
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20:58:25Joe_knockAraq: Perhaps we need to find a way to lessen the burden on you.
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20:59:11reactormonkJoe_knock, start coding ;-)
20:59:54EXetoCso bus factor 1, kind off. stay inside and stay safe
21:00:02Joe_knockreactormonk: My noob code will be so bad that the compiler itself will give me F on code-reviews :'D
21:00:26reactormonkJoe_knock, screw that. There's a few easy things to mess around with.
21:02:32reactormonkJoe_knock, you could create a few babel packages from stdlib e.g.
21:02:38Joe_knockreactormonk: My target is set on commentifying dom96s code :P
21:03:03Joe_knockthat too!
21:03:05reactormonkJoe_knock, so be it
21:03:14Joe_knockbut for now. Sleep
21:03:20Joe_knocktake care all.
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21:16:46dom96I think that anyone will be able to extend the compiler if they have enough time to do so.
21:16:59dom96It's not like it's written in Brainfuck.
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21:18:22*dom96 wonders what code of his is not well commented :(
21:22:48Jehan_dom96: Heh. I think pretty much every programmer has some undercommented code.
21:23:43Jehan_Because when you write it, it's blindingly obvious. It's only when other people see it (or you yourself, a few months down the road) that you discover it's not quite that clear.
21:23:57dom96Good point.
21:24:36Jehan_That's why I have the habit to be verbose with identifiers. Even if I undercomment code, that makes it easier to reconstruct its meaning.
21:25:09dom96Araq: The "The Not Rocket Science Rule Of Software Engineering" as graydon calls it, i.e. "automatically maintain a repository of code that always passes all the tests", sounds like a pretty good idea.
21:25:30Jehan_dom96: It is, the problem is that it has scaling problems.
21:26:49Jehan_It's really hard to do with a very active project and high test coverage.
21:27:17Jehan_When the time to run tests significantly exceeds commit frequency, you can really test only every so often.
21:27:39dom96Yeah. Only thing you can do is throw more machines at it, we simply don't have the resources.
21:27:55Jehan_Or you can test intermittently.
21:28:18Jehan_Run nightly tests, update the "passed all tests" version after.
21:28:40Jehan_The problem then is that your active development branch can run way behind the "passed all tests" branch.
21:29:22dom96hrm, I feel like I don't quite understand how this is actually supposed to work.
21:29:42Jehan_Also, on a practical note: I work off "devel" personally and really haven't had any problems (beyond bugs that were already there long ago).
21:29:59dom96nimbuild already tests each push
21:30:28Jehan_It's not like building off master or devel is a huge risk. The thing that broke was bootstrapping via csources.
21:30:32dom96It does get clogged up sometimes when Araq decides to pull a lot of PRs.
21:33:52Jehan_Hmm, the compiler really gets noisy with a lot of Babel packages.
21:35:42Araqdom96, Jehan_ I still think my major point stands: you cannot reasonably develop against a commit version of the compiler
21:36:33dom96Araq: yes, you should either develop against a released version or keep up to date with devel (or a branch of your choosing)
21:36:42Jehan_Araq: It depends. I need little but the stdlib myself for my current work, so package dependencies aren't a big issue for me.
21:37:15Araq"you need to use the devel version of the compiler it contains a critical bugfix" doesn't work. You either
21:37:27Araqa) workaround so that it works with latest stable
21:37:52Araqb) delay the release until a new compiler has been released
21:38:24Araqand optionally (c) push us to get releases out quicklier
21:40:01Jehan_Araq: I use devel for dogfooding purposes. Basically, I'm volunteering as guinea pig. :)
21:40:23Jehan_as a*
21:41:05AraqJehan_: well everybody is free what he wants to do obviously, but I'm talking about Babel packages
21:41:40Jehan_Araq: Agreed.
21:41:58Araqand especially things like SDL, opengl, jester etc. that have some high chance of being used ;-)
21:44:44dom96I think I should create a cool website to show off Jester.
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22:01:50imjoe`dom96: yes show off jester! and if you can have an example using bigbreak and routes being handled in async manner, *and* websockets being handled in same processs, that would be beezneez :-)
22:02:49dom96ahh yes, websockets are the cool thing nowadays.
22:03:00dom96imjoe`: Did you get your web crawler working?
22:03:18dom96imjoe`: For some reason I am now not able to reproduce that crash.
22:06:52imjoe`yes, by limiting the poll() it didn't crash (i think..) something like if x mod 10: poll();
22:07:25imjoe`i am hoping to have it run full bore and benchmark against a ruby eventmachine version by the end of the week
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22:10:27Mat3hello
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22:13:21dom96imjoe`: I still think you should try adding a concurrency constant and only run that many requests at the same time.
22:14:32imjoe`dom96: well yes, but i want that constant to be like 1K and my dataset was only 1K :-)
22:17:08dom96imjoe`: I see lol. I'll try to play around with it a bit more later too. See if I can make it faster. Might be good to add a timeout to the requests for example because some seem to get stuck.
22:18:35Araqhi Mat3 how's progress on your C compiler / native codegen?
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22:23:15Mat3Araq: I test/code an AOT environment at current (which seem to work fine) and start recoding the C compiler in Nim[rod]
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22:24:32Araqok nice
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22:30:35Mat3for this I had written a new backend for AMD64 because these new Atom architecture from Intel is not able to decode opcode streams with more than 3-4 prefixes so code lenght is much more important than before
22:34:19Mat3(compiled code now perform better even on tablets with Intel CPU)
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22:34:49*Mat3 AMD64 alias X86-64 sucks
22:36:22Mat3^I mean 3-4 prefixes per cycle
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22:36:53Araqcool
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22:41:32Mat3and I slowly work on a web representation for these project
22:42:11dom96anything we can test yet?
22:44:07Mat3you can write some nice NAVM routines which are compiled to native code though an inline assembler at moment
22:48:46Mat3or compile NAVM streams which can be executed though your GPU if you want if you have the right model
22:49:00Mat3^and if you have the right model
22:49:47Araqwhat's NAVM againß
22:49:48Araq?
22:50:02dom96Mat3: Do you have the code anywhere?
22:50:48dom96anywhere public that is
22:50:56Mat3I think to post the link to the repo some time ago
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22:57:35AraqMat3: well yes. can you post the link again please?
22:59:13Mat3https://www.assembla.com/code/vanar/git/nodes/master/src/navmFrontend.nim
22:59:43Mat3just realize my git repro is still broken, so no sync yet
23:00:08dom96what's wrong with it?
23:00:17Mat3I will upload a compressed archive
23:00:47Mat3it seem to be a version conflict
23:04:44NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 00b6a14 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±3 -0]: More empty stmt fixes.
23:04:44NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak fce0a89 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Added more information to the news.
23:04:44NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 205b765 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Fixes case in cgi module.
23:04:44NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 6cc4437 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Changes source build recommendations on website.
23:04:52Mat3my daughter awaked, I look at these server mess tomorrow
23:05:51Mat3ciao
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23:10:16NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 4d2ff28 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Fix case issues in compiler/docgen.
23:11:24Araqdom96: what did you change? docgen has been fixed case for months now
23:12:40dom96cgi URLencode -> urlEncode
23:12:57Araqoh hrm ok
23:13:54Jehan_Hmm, it looks as though staticExec()/gorge() has problems with output greater than the buffer size.
23:15:04Jehan_Yeah, waitForExit is in the wrong place.
23:15:22Araqfix it on devel please
23:15:27Jehan_On it.
23:15:35AraqI changed my mind, bugfixes should go to devel
23:15:58Jehan_There's also a related problem with processes that have both input and output greater than the buffer size.
23:16:20Jehan_But that's tricky to fix without some reengineering. The big output problem is an easy fix.
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23:17:27NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 0b229fa Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Fixes tester.
23:18:21Jehan_I found out trying to embed a cpio archive. :)
23:26:25Jehan_Hmm, I realize that staticExec() also has problems with binary data.
23:27:48Jehan_But that's another issue, let's fix it first for text.
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23:32:41Araqdom96: did you add .deprecated: [URLencode: urlEncode] ?
23:38:53dom96Araq: no
23:39:24Araqwell you should
23:39:43Araqbtw why not 'encodeUrl'?
23:39:51Araqmakes more sense
23:40:38dom96i'd rather just make CS changes
23:41:17Araqnah, .deprecated works really well
23:41:24Araqno need to be conservative
23:41:55dom96well I don't feel like changing everything again
23:42:02dom96so if you want that then do it
23:42:16Araqok
23:42:17dom96and fix nimforum while you're at it
23:42:31Araqwhat's wrong with it?
23:42:47NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 055ed51 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Add depraction warnings for URLencode/decode.
23:42:49dom96it uses urlEncode
23:43:17Araqwith my patch it doesn't need fixing
23:44:59dom96what will you do, add urlEncode: encodeUrl too?
23:45:11dom96I guess you can do that
23:45:39Araqwell no, I'll have URLEncode: encodeUrl
23:47:36dom96yes, and you will break it
23:47:56Araqoh ok
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