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| 07:27:29 | Araq | Varriount: please download and test http://nimrod-lang.org/download/mingw4.8.1.zip |
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| 09:18:07 | io2 | this makes me sigh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_%28compilers%29 |
| 09:18:46 | io2 | essentially, they are talking about compiler bootstrapping, they have all the languages there, and Nimrod still has the link to its deleted page |
| 09:19:18 | io2 | I know that this is old and counter-productive, but this seriously sucks |
| 09:19:31 | io2 | :/ |
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| 12:47:54 | Trustable | io2, I also think than Nimrod should have a Wikipedia article. The deleted article is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Nimrod_%28programming_language%29 |
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| 17:30:10 | Araq | hi Trustable |
| 17:30:20 | Trustable | Hi Araq :) |
| 17:30:58 | Araq | Nim needs you, do you want to be a new core dev? |
| 17:31:17 | Araq | only condition: availability |
| 17:31:51 | Araq | as in I tell you something and get feedback within ~10 hours |
| 17:32:53 | Trustable | Araq: yes, I plan to get deeper in touch with Nimrod and the team behind it |
| 17:33:38 | Trustable | Explain more what you mean by availabilty? |
| 17:34:20 | Araq | as I said: I like feedback within ~10 hours |
| 17:34:30 | Araq | usually of course |
| 17:34:48 | Araq | counter example is Varriount (sorry ;-) ) |
| 17:35:06 | Trustable | you can have any feedback immediately |
| 17:35:26 | Araq | I tell him something and due to him being in the US etc. I'm waiting forever |
| 17:35:50 | Trustable | I understand |
| 17:36:13 | Araq | what's your main OS? |
| 17:36:36 | Trustable | Manjaro (Arch Linux based) + others in VMs |
| 17:38:02 | EXetoC | let's flatten the planet |
| 17:38:20 | Trustable | what do you mean? |
| 17:40:01 | Araq | Trustable: EXetoC refers to eliminating the different time zones |
| 17:40:16 | Araq | Trustable: ok, linux is good |
| 17:40:34 | Araq | uh oh, don't tell anybody I said that :P |
| 17:44:14 | Trustable | Araq: I had in mind to make my own programming language, but since I know Nimrod, it not any more necessary. Nimrod is exact that what I had in mind :) |
| 17:44:33 | Trustable | *it's |
| 17:44:42 | Araq | yeah plus making your own programming language is just insane |
| 17:45:02 | Araq | I wouldn't do it again ;-) |
| 17:45:26 | Trustable | yes, it's a lot of work |
| 17:45:37 | Trustable | especially for one person |
| 17:47:00 | Araq | ok, so let me tell you something about the release process |
| 17:47:48 | Araq | release are built by "niminst" which is a tool that takes an aweful lot of time to build due to some performance regression in the compiler that I have yet to figure out |
| 17:48:25 | Araq | nevertheless it is what produces the .zip with all the C code and the large build.sh, install.sh etc. scripts |
| 17:48:40 | Trustable | ok |
| 17:49:08 | Araq | but since we can never remember all these different tools and how to invoke them, there is usually a koch target that invokes it for us |
| 17:50:05 | Araq | so to build a release for Unix based systems you do: |
| 17:50:13 | Araq | koch csource -d:release |
| 17:50:26 | Araq | koch web # for documentation generation |
| 17:50:35 | Araq | koch zip # builds the zip |
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| 17:52:18 | Araq | question is whether it's really useful to package the docs with installer |
| 17:52:54 | Araq | IMHO we should package the docs separately for the people who need an offline version |
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| 17:54:25 | Trustable | maybe, but I think it's not that necessary, because most people just read the online version |
| 17:55:04 | Araq | yeah, exactly |
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| 17:58:41 | Trustable | How many man-years of work went to Nimrod so far? |
| 18:05:43 | Araq | 8 |
| 18:06:49 | Trustable | wow |
| 18:07:36 | Trustable | the team is very small, right? so you have done the most work? |
| 18:09:43 | Araq | but you can be significantly faster if you have full time devs and push the language by arguments of authority (golang) |
| 18:11:40 | Triplefox | I have focused myself on small languages cause i hate spending man years on one thing |
| 18:12:25 | Triplefox | But i really appreciate having stuff that is actually worked on in that much depth |
| 18:13:28 | Araq | for marketing it also helps to carry one's ignorance as a banner before oneself ... ;-) |
| 18:13:44 | Araq | I'm not particularly good at that :P |
| 18:15:22 | EXetoC | practice makes perfect |
| 18:15:59 | Triplefox | My ideal is to somehow come up with a set of tiny languages that are easy to port into any environment, sort of like what the vpri stuff did |
| 18:16:27 | Araq | Triplefox: the problem with tiny languages is that they don't work |
| 18:17:07 | Araq | the price for a tiny language is a dynamic type system or some shitty static type system |
| 18:17:20 | Araq | neither is good enough IMO |
| 18:17:54 | Triplefox | That's true in terms of generalized computation problems |
| 18:18:10 | Triplefox | When you can narrow to one domain it gets a lot better |
| 18:19:18 | Araq | what domains do you have in mind? |
| 18:20:45 | Triplefox | Hmm. Things like audio, graphics rendering. I find audio very interesting |
| 18:21:44 | Triplefox | If you look at how old analog synths were designed they had this transitional step where a cpu was used for just simple things |
| 18:22:02 | Triplefox | To control things like polyphony and restore presets |
| 18:22:25 | Triplefox | The rest of the signal path was analog components |
| 18:23:07 | Triplefox | And we have dataflow languages now that more or less reproduce that method of design |
| 18:24:28 | Triplefox | They break once you want to do things that are really stateful, but they're basically the right way to think about the design otherwise |
| 18:25:02 | Araq | yeah dataflow design is most interesting |
| 18:29:15 | Triplefox | A problem I've been thinking about for a few years is how to structure concurrency on top of an imperative environment... comes up constantly in game engines |
| 18:30:06 | Triplefox | And not really in the context of optimization so much as having actors that aren't completely asynchronous, they rely on a shared world |
| 18:32:08 | Triplefox | There are certain patterns for dealing with the problem, but they're complex enough that it's hard to articulate what the semantics are |
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| 18:35:17 | Araq | I think that's basically unsolvable |
| 18:36:04 | Araq | that's essentially unstructured concurrency with a large shared memory |
| 18:36:50 | Araq | it's perhaps solvable with STM I guess, but it's not worth it |
| 18:37:18 | Araq | you can use multiple cores much more easily by taking advantage of data parallelism |
| 18:37:34 | Araq | (for game engines) |
| 18:38:38 | Triplefox | Right, but I'm not looking for the 100% solution. I'm looking for a way to take all the 80% solutions and encode them in a more terse way |
| 18:39:13 | Triplefox | That doesn't solve a general problem, but it improves understanding |
| 18:42:03 | Araq | Trustable: well can you build the installer and test it please? for the devel branch (which is 0.9.6) |
| 18:42:30 | Trustable | under Linux? |
| 18:42:42 | Araq | sure |
| 18:43:09 | Trustable | is there an installer for Linux? |
| 18:44:56 | Araq | I mean the .zip based solution |
| 18:45:03 | Araq | I told you about it. remember? ;-) |
| 18:45:56 | Trustable | is there a binary zip for Linux? |
| 18:47:54 | Trustable | ok, found it on the download page |
| 18:49:15 | Trustable | koch csource -d:release gives me the error: llstream.nim(80, 9) Error: undeclared identifier: 'declared' |
| 18:53:53 | Araq | no |
| 18:54:19 | Araq | you should bootstrap from devel via the csources repo |
| 18:54:30 | Araq | and then do the koch dance |
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| 18:57:20 | Trustable | tell me step by step, I'm a newbe to such things |
| 18:58:20 | Trustable | *newbie |
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| 19:02:00 | Araq | git clone -b devel git://github.com/Araq/Nimrod.git |
| 19:02:02 | Araq | cd Nimrod |
| 19:02:03 | Araq | git clone --depth 1 git://github.com/nimrod-code/csources |
| 19:02:05 | Araq | cd csources && sh build.sh |
| 19:02:06 | Araq | cd .. |
| 19:02:08 | Araq | bin/nimrod c koch |
| 19:02:09 | Araq | ./koch boot -d:release |
| 19:02:37 | Trustable | I think that's what I did, but I will try it again |
| 19:07:26 | Trustable | done |
| 19:07:36 | Araq | so it worked? |
| 19:07:47 | Trustable | My mistakes was, that I compiled nimrod with the installed binary of nimrod |
| 19:07:53 | Trustable | so far yes |
| 19:08:04 | Trustable | now koch csource -d:release? |
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| 19:08:08 | Araq | yup |
| 19:08:33 | Trustable | same error: llstream.nim(80, 9) Error: undeclared identifier: 'declared' |
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| 19:09:40 | Trustable | is 'declared' a new keyword? |
| 19:12:34 | Araq | it's a new builtin |
| 19:12:52 | Araq | but this makes no sense, do you have some old system.nim that's used instead? |
| 19:16:18 | Trustable | Nimrod is installed on my system |
| 19:17:13 | Araq | yeah, that's bad :P |
| 19:18:45 | Trustable | removed now |
| 19:22:09 | Trustable | running the commands again |
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| 19:26:01 | Trustable | now I have the error: sh: nimrod: command not found |
| 19:26:23 | Araq | you have to add your local nimrod to your $PATH |
| 19:26:34 | Trustable | ok |
| 19:29:54 | Trustable | koch csource -d:release: Hint: operation successful (79843 lines compiled; 3.570 sec total; 259.265MB) |
| 19:30:00 | Trustable | what next? |
| 19:32:09 | Araq | koch zip |
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| 19:34:36 | Trustable | done |
| 19:35:40 | Araq | now unzip it and run build.sh please |
| 19:37:01 | Trustable | where is the zip file? |
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| 19:39:29 | Trustable | it showed: [Warning] No file found that matches: bin/nimrod.exe |
| 19:41:09 | Araq | you can ignore that warning |
| 19:45:29 | Trustable | I don't see any created .gz files |
| 19:48:40 | Araq | .zip? |
| 19:49:39 | Trustable | no file |
| 19:50:00 | Araq | look in the build dir |
| 19:50:47 | Trustable | there is no zip file |
| 19:51:16 | Araq | well how come "koch zip" doesn't produce any error then? |
| 19:53:49 | Trustable | the call of gcc went successful |
| 19:54:14 | Trustable | then it calls /Nimrod/tools/niminst/niminst --var:version=0.9.5 zip compiler/nimrod.ini |
| 19:54:42 | Trustable | Then it says: No file found that matches:.. for different names |
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| 20:01:26 | Araq | version 0.9.5 is already wrong |
| 20:01:39 | Araq | you need to compile koch.nim again |
| 20:01:50 | Araq | and see if that changes it to 0.9.6 |
| 20:04:50 | Trustable | ok, now it calls tools/niminst/niminst --var:version=0.9.6 zip compiler/nimrod.ini |
| 20:05:29 | Trustable | still can't find any zip file |
| 20:06:36 | Araq | well can you run the niminst command manually? |
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| 20:12:54 | Araq | Trustable: there should be build/nimrod_0.9.6.zip |
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| 20:14:19 | Trustable | Araq: the only output is the warnings |
| 20:14:43 | Araq | well I'm looking at niminst |
| 20:14:56 | Araq | and it's error checking is not bad |
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| 22:06:10 | gokr | Anyone here using Nimrod with C++ libraries? |
| 22:07:12 | gokr | Or should I say Nim. We are the knights who say Nim! Hehe |
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| 22:48:24 | Trustable | good night everyone (sdl2 audio output now works for me) |
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| 22:53:34 | sdw | Why is nimrod being renamed? |
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| 23:16:06 | Jehan_ | sdw: http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/541/2 |
| 23:18:06 | sdw | Thanks |
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| 23:38:57 | Varriount_ | Araq: I take no offense. Unfortunately, classes are taking up more time than I would like. |
| 23:39:10 | Varriount_ | It doesn't help that we're in different time zones. |
| 23:42:23 | * | Varriount_ is now known as Varriount |
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| 23:43:20 | Varriount | Araq: I don't have any classes on the weekend. What do you want me to help with? |
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| 23:50:42 | Varriount | Araq: csources builds correctly with the mingw binary you gave, however it builds nimrod as a 32 bit binary on my 64 bit machine. |
| 23:51:29 | Varriount | Araq: I think the batch files and compiler invocations nimrod uses could override this though. |