<< 13-02-2015 >>
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00:10:35flaviuekarlso: http://www.ucw.cz/moe/
00:13:35ekarlsoflaviu: yeah, but isolate requires to be run as root ?
00:13:43flaviuso?
00:13:55ekarlsowhy not just as well use docker :p
00:14:12flaviuisolate is easier to set up properly, but whatever floats your boat.
00:14:25flaviuThey both use LXC
00:14:36ekarlsoyum install docker < not much easier...
00:14:38ekarlsodocker run fooo
00:14:58ekarlsoi just dont get it why playpen is borking
00:15:01flaviuyeah, but time, memory, io, cpu restrictions are probably a PITA in docker.
00:16:19ekarlsotime restrictions ?
00:16:39flaviuwell, you don't want someone to run a program for 20 min.
00:16:43flaviuIt should be short.
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00:25:49ekarlsoflaviu: hmmm clone(child_stack=0, flags=CLONE_NEWNS|CLONE_NEWUTS|CLONE_NEWIPC|CLONE_NEWPID|CLONE_NEWNET|SIGCHLD) = -1 EPERM (Operation not permitted)
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00:27:18flaviuI don't know, sorry.
00:28:41ekarlsooh well, tmrw then
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00:44:04fowlmouthgoogle said you need to use sudo
00:46:43ekarlsodoesn't say so in #rust..
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02:37:52Triplefoxif i do something like: https://gist.github.com/triplefox/a400a11fe05566bdc0fb does the reference actually get traced in some useful way, or am i just breaking it?
02:39:27Triplefox(context: i have a tweening lib that would like to update references on arbitrary user data, but want to know what i can guarantee)
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03:26:50fowlmouthTriplefox, the example wont work. what you suggest is not good practice
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03:28:14fowlmouthif you have a reference to some float inside some Thing, it loses meaning what the float is, instead keep Thing and the float you're reading/modifying is a property of a Thing. if that makes sense
03:30:45Triplefoxthe case where this starts to actually matter to me is...i have an array of, say, particles. now, maybe the right way to approach it is to allow the tweener to operate over a sequence
03:32:04Triplefoxbut then i also want the case where i have a singular thing like a ui element and it just needs some coordinates updated on that
03:34:57Triplefoxif pressed i'd probably go for a low-performing solution, in my haxe version of this lib i passed in a setter function
03:38:48Triplefoxor i could refuse to automate, and force the user to manually map tween results to the data being tweened
03:43:32fowlmouthi'll try to make an ex in a min
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03:52:28fowlmouthbrb
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04:15:59reactormonkAraq, ok, I have the code here, no idea why I didn't push it, gotta take a look again - but splits first.
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05:05:09fowlmouthTriplefox, heres what i came up with https://gist.github.com/fowlmouth/169804e2638e05a7e9c1
05:05:25Triplefoxoh my gosh, you did all that
05:05:41Triplefoxi already had a library i was porting so
05:06:25fowlmouththats fine
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05:08:16Triplefoxit'll be a good reference, though...nim constructs i haven't tried yet
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05:14:18Triplefoxthis is what i made, anyway...very different approach https://gist.github.com/triplefox/d017b47f32de68ac6c2b
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06:27:33Triplefoxdecided to remove any notion of tween target. now the lib is super simple and i am happy.
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09:29:00Araqdef-: system.nim has a patch to make --threads:on work with --os:standalone
09:32:40def-Araq: oh, it runs already, i just didn't update my compiler copy!
09:32:50def-great
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10:26:40Araqdef-: regarding https://github.com/Araq/Nim/issues/1797 ... does 'while' without a break count as 'for' for icc's optimizer?
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10:27:30def-Araq: interesting question, will have to give it a try. only seen for loops being optimized so far
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10:41:32def-Araq: yes, while loops without breaks work fine as well
10:42:03def-without breaks and gotos*
10:42:16Araqso all the codgen needs to do is to use while (cond) instead of while (1) { if !cond break; }?
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10:42:58def-it's a goto, not a break right now
10:43:08Araqyeah I know, doesn't matter
10:43:33def-yes, that should be fine
10:44:04ekarlsodidn't know but the hosts that the packages stuff runs on atm runs ssd raids -,,-
10:44:08def-but maybe the additional assignments are another problem
10:44:23ekarlsono wonder it's blazing
10:45:29Araqdef-: well the C compiler really should do copy ellisions before loop detection ...
10:45:48Araqbut yeah, it surely is not idiomatic C
10:46:40Araqbut hrm you get something similar with pointer arithmetic
10:46:46Araqso it should handle it
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11:47:12flaviufowlmouth: I came across http://www.ilikebigbits.com/blog/2015/2/5/what-a-difference-a-function-makes a while ago, it's approch looked interesting. You get to avoid Euler integration with it.
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13:09:47mithraidersany web framework for nim?
13:09:52def-mithraiders: jester
13:10:24def-and nawak
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13:16:38mithraidersim new to nim. why i dont see any wikipedia for nim?
13:17:07def-mithraiders: not noteworthy enough yet
13:20:26Araqhow many github watchers do we need to become noteworthy? ;-)
13:20:33def-If you want to read more about the reasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nimrod_(programming_language)_(2nd_nomination)
13:21:33def-Araq: not watchers, instead need people to write about Nim in reputable publications
13:22:51def-or we just create an article for Nim again and see what happens?
13:23:17mithraidersi know this is not the place to look for inspiration and motivation. lol. but im stuck between what to learn.. golang or nim. Tried both the basic stuff.
13:23:52Araqand what should be written? "we used Nim to calculate the number of bernoulli graphs where vertex cover was fixed parameter tractable"?
13:24:00def-mithraiders: try something more advanced in the direction you want to go in, in both languages. see what works better for you
13:24:31def-Araq: that would probably be good enough, actually
13:25:15mithraiderscool dude. i think i should dig more deeper on both programming languages.
13:27:44mithraidersis it true that the speed of nim is comparable to c?
13:28:46def-mithraiders: in many benchmarks yes, i have a list of benchmarks down here: https://github.com/def-/nim-benchmarksgame
13:30:49BlaXpiritthis doesn't work :( https://bpaste.net/show/9496a1d822de
13:31:33BlaXpiriton line 13 there are 2 generic arguments. if I make one of them normal, it works, just not with both
13:31:43def-BlaXpirit: yeah, i reported this already
13:31:55BlaXpiritnice to know
13:32:30def-maybe it's not the same bug though
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13:32:58def-https://github.com/Araq/Nim/issues/1385
13:33:26def-seems like it's the user defined typeclass in your case
13:37:36BlaXpirit29 Jul 2014 huh
13:37:48mithraiders@def i hope you would write more article about nim. maybe 'Build You Own Web Framework In Nim'. or 'Simple Twitter clone using nim' :D
13:38:38def-mithraiders: Hopefully someone with more knowledge of these topics will do it before me
13:39:01BlaXpiritdef-, cuz I realized that to represent multiple inheritance in SFML's class hierarchy i could use inheritance for some cases and typeclasses for other cases
13:39:17BlaXpiritaaand it doesn't work
13:39:30def-yeah, typeclasses are known to be experimental
13:39:49def-If you could fix them, that would be great
13:39:57BlaXpirityeah right -_-
13:41:30AraqBlaXpirit: MI can also be modelled with converters
13:42:09BlaXpiritAraq, those things aren't even classes
13:42:31BlaXpiriti mean, they are "classes" in C++, but it's more like interfaces
13:43:09BlaXpiritwhich seemed like a very nice candidate for typeclasses
13:43:54BlaXpiritam I even calling this the correct name
13:44:05BlaXpirityeah, seems so
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15:12:49DecoPersonis the "initialise object into memory at this address" feature implemented yet?
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15:27:32BlaXpiriti thought such behavior might work implicitly, but it doesn't
15:32:57gmpreussner|workif i have "type TArray = distinct array[0..3, int]", how would i go about adding support for array initialization like "var a: TArray = [1, 2, 3, 4]"? is that possible without assignment operators yet?
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15:53:22BlaXpiritgmpreussner|work, maybe u can make a converter??
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15:55:27def-BlaXpirit: then why make it distinct at all?
15:56:57def-gmpreussner|work: write "var a = TArray([1, 2, 3, 4])"
15:57:14gmpreussner|workthanks def-
15:57:25gmpreussner|workyeah, converter defeates the purpose of distinct :)
15:57:36gmpreussner|work*defeats
15:58:55DecoPersonhmm, how would you make it behave like an array? https://gist.github.com/Deco/5a58b5721bec07c4b09a
15:59:20DecoPersonadded the error to that gist
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16:00:23def-DecoPerson: what you're trying to do only works for dot accessor
16:01:03gmpreussner|workDecoPerson, i added a suggestion in a comment
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16:01:36DecoPersonso every proc and template that takes an array needs to be redefined for TArray? (using {.borrow.}, ofc)
16:01:53gmpreussner|workthat's the best i could come up with :/
16:02:15def-seems like it. could also extend the .borrow: pragma
16:02:39gmpreussner|worki also found that {.borrow.} does not work well with generics... so if you have TArray[N: static[int], T], for example, you might be out of luck
16:03:33BlaXpiritgmpreussner|work, maybe it should be a tuple
16:04:10DecoPersonheh, make a converter for Euro -> Dollar that looks up the current exchange rate using a HTTP query
16:04:12BlaXpirit"array of 4 numbers" is not something that "makes sense"
16:04:17BlaXpiritDecoPerson, lol D:
16:04:45gmpreussner|workBlaXpirit, maybe. i think i still don't fully understand the type system in Nim. i thought i did, but i keep running into trivial issues.
16:05:13gmpreussner|workobject vs. tuple vs. alias... i never know which one is best in a particular case :)
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16:05:33gmpreussner|workfrom what i understand, "type Foo = Bar" is just an alias, right?
16:06:05def-gmpreussner|work: i'd say right
16:06:13gmpreussner|work"type Foo = tuple" is struct like. "type Foo = object" remembers its type at run-time. "type Foo = object of Bar" is inheritance
16:06:35BlaXpiritgmpreussner|work, so, what are you trying to represent here?
16:07:12gmpreussner|worki have a case right now where i want to represent an IsA relationship, but i don't need run-time type information
16:07:17DecoPersonAs objects remember their type at runtime, they support dynamic dispatch for inherited types
16:07:40gokrgmpreussner|work: I wrote a series of articles exploring the OO aspects of Nim, might be of help.
16:07:52gmpreussner|workfor example, a data structure 'Matrix' is a data structure 'RectangularArray'. you can use Matrix wherever you can use RectangularArray, but not vice versa
16:08:06gmpreussner|workgokr, yeah, i read those several times already :)
16:08:10gokrOh ;)
16:08:21gokrSorry if they were confusing - I wrote them "on the fly" so to speak.
16:08:30gmpreussner|worki think they're great
16:08:37gmpreussner|workbut they don't anwser all questions
16:08:48gokrNo, they sure don't. I am just a beginner too.
16:08:55BlaXpiritgmpreussner|work, that looks like inheritance, really
16:09:01DecoPersonlink please, gmpreussner? :)
16:09:20gmpreussner|workso would "type Matrix = object of RectArray" be the way to go then? it seems like overkill
16:09:40gmpreussner|workmaybe i forget about the IsA relationship and composition is better
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16:09:56gokrDecoPerson: If you refer to my articles, you find them all at: http://goran.krampe.se/category/nim
16:10:01gmpreussner|workin C++ i wouldn't think much about this, because structs can be inherited, too
16:10:18DecoPersonthanks!
16:10:25gmpreussner|workand classes and structs are much the same
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16:11:08gmpreussner|worki don't know what the cost of "object of" is in Nim. from reading the docs it sounds like instances carry extra type information around and therefore may be larger than tuple?
16:11:41gokrAs a Smalltalker at heart I would tend to go for objects first, and well, if it works, fine :)
16:12:03gokrYou can check with... size() I think.
16:12:12gokrBut yes, they must be a tad larger.
16:12:13def-sizeof()
16:12:16gokrthanks
16:12:55def-yes, inheritable objects are bigger
16:13:16gmpreussner|worksee, that's not something i want
16:13:30def-by a single int from what i can see
16:13:40gokrAnd you don't want dynamic method lookup?
16:13:48gmpreussner|worknope
16:13:53gmpreussner|workthese are plain old data types
16:13:55def-gmpreussner|work: if you use non-inheritable objects (just no {.inheritable.}) then they stay perfectly small
16:14:13DecoPersonI'm using a tuple for "structs"
16:14:32gmpreussner|workdef-, yeah, but then the derived type can't see the parent's procs?
16:14:39DecoPersonthough a way to have VLAs at the end would be great
16:14:43def-gmpreussner|work: then you can't derive a type
16:15:34def-DecoPerson: Jehan has an impelementation of VLAs: http://forum.nim-lang.org/t/499
16:15:35gokrdef-: Ah. So... what would be the difference between such an object and a tuple?
16:16:32def-gokr: in the memory (and in C) both are the same, just a struct
16:16:58def-but the usage feels a bit diferrent. it's more comfortable to fill a tuple with a few values
16:17:21gmpreussner|workdef-, so how would i model something like this: struct Foo { int x; }; struct Bar: Foo { int y; }; Bar should have two members x and y.
16:17:57DecoPersondef-: thanks, that's very helpful.
16:18:01def-gmpreussner|work: https://gist.github.com/def-/9131254732992a0b3e44
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16:18:31gmpreussner|workdef-, ok, but then i pay with an extra sizeof(int), yes?
16:18:36def-yes
16:18:54def-if you don't want to pay, then don't use inheritance, instead embed Foo into Bar
16:19:04gmpreussner|workyeah
16:19:13gmpreussner|worki think i want composition instead
16:19:28gmpreussner|workif i used composition, would i still use 'object', or would i use 'tuple' instead?
16:20:11def-gmpreussner|work: if the objects get big and you need them in many places, I'd go with objects. if you just return it once and then pick it apart immediately, tuples
16:20:23gmpreussner|workok thanks
16:20:49def-but yeah, maybe (non-inheritable) objects and tuples should just be made the same thing?
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16:23:29gmpreussner|workdef-, yeah, maybe. and perhaps objects should then be inheritable by default
16:24:06gmpreussner|workbut there was probably a reason for why it was set up this way :)
16:25:51gmpreussner|workif tuples were flat data and objects were inheritable types that carry type information, that might make things more intuitive
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16:26:25gmpreussner|worknon-inheritable objects being also flat, and inheritable objects requiring extra markup is a bit confusing
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16:28:06wbNim's large variety of containers is definitely confusing to newcomers.
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16:29:31reactormonkWhy exactly do tuples exist?
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16:32:00wbIn Nim specifically? To me it looks like tuples are meant as Nim's basic implementation of a record
16:32:03wbhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_(computer_science)
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16:35:17federico3infinity0: hi
16:36:50ldleworkreactormonk: they are nonce record types indeed
16:37:13ldleworkIn that, you don't have to pre-define a type for some collection of fields ahead of time.
16:39:04reactormonkwb, can do that with objects too
16:39:46ldleworkreactormonk: not without predefining a type
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16:47:25wbYeah. But Nim objects do overlap pretty heavily with tuples ("structs"). They feel kind of like "anonymous objects".
16:50:55ldleworkwb: well put
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18:28:34whitenoisewhere does one get the nim2c, c2nim binaries?
18:28:41whitenoisethey are not in ~/Nim/bin from the devel source build
18:28:53def-whitenoise: nimble install c2nim
18:29:31whitenoisei do not have nimble, either
18:31:01def-https://github.com/nim-lang/nimble
18:31:36BlaXpiritand don't forget to install git too.......
18:32:18BlaXpiritoh that's not a problem, i thought you were on window
18:32:19BlaXpirits
18:36:45whitenoiseah, so there is no nim2c?
18:36:53whitenoisei guess that would just be compiling
18:37:17def-whitenoise: nim --compileOnly c
18:38:23whitenoise8924 lines
18:38:44def--d:release should reduce the lines
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18:40:39whitenoise#define NIM_INTBITS 64
18:40:39whitenoise#include "nimbase.h"
18:41:04whitenoisethis particular .c file in nimcache only has 79 lines, I guess the 8850 or so are in nimbase.h
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18:41:33whitenoisewhich means to send the C source around as native code would mean that file would have to go with it
18:41:54def-indeed
18:41:59whitenoisei'm guessing the compiled binaries, though, will run on whatever they were compiled on, architecture-wise, without Nim installed, yeah?
18:42:07def-correct
18:42:28def-this sounds like the first 2 points of my article here: http://hookrace.net/blog/what-makes-nim-practical
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18:42:50whitenoisethe title of this article appeals to me.
18:43:44Araqmy nimbase.h is 400 lines and the only piece of hand written C code in Nim's repo
18:44:02Araqso ... I don't think yours is 8800 lines of code :P
18:45:11whitenoiseAraq: I could be ignorantly reading compiler output
18:45:29def-whitenoise: those are nim lines i think
18:45:29whitenoisei did think 8800 was high, though, but i wasn't going to be a punk and say it. now i am grateful
18:45:40whitenoiseHint: operation successful (8924 lines compiled; 0.094 sec total; 10.102MB) [SuccessX]
18:45:47def-that probably means the stdlib is pretty big by now
18:46:00whitenoisei see
18:46:30whitenoisealso, niminst is awesome
18:46:30Araqwhitenoise: that doesn't mean Nim *produced* 8924 lines of C code!
18:46:34whitenoisethat's very useful to ship with it
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18:48:31whitenoisedef-'s article sold me on Nim more than the website did :P
18:48:37whitenoiseis it linked to the site anywhere?
18:49:21whitenoiseit shows the coverage of basically everything i look for when evaluating a new language
18:49:44whitenoisewith the bonus of the nimscript thing, that was neat.
18:50:55def-nice to hear, whitenoise. there's a PR that would add a link to it to the website
18:52:05whitenoiseawesome
18:52:50BlaXpiritthe website scared me away a few times until once it almost scared me away
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19:13:56Araq"[csources] Build setup is susceptible to backdooring"
19:14:10Araqis this guy joking?
19:14:32Araq"Debian's reproducible builds effort"?
19:14:57Araqso Debian doesn't routinely run 40K of generated autoconf scripts then?
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19:18:25Araqoh hi infinity0 :-) didn't notice you're here.
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19:27:10filwithey guys
19:27:38filwitwanted to get the website stuff worked out this weekend
19:27:58filwitso i'm hear to talk about the comments you (araq, dom96) made on github
19:28:40Araqhi filwit
19:28:42filwitdom96: the removal of the #mascot CSS was because the mascot in the corner (the badger) isn't there (so don't need the CSS anymore)
19:28:45filwithi Araq
19:29:31filwitAraq, dom96: the reason i changed the RTF to HTML was not because I couldn't get a <li> tag... it's because I couldn't put a 'class' attribute on the <ul> tag through RTF
19:30:02Araqfilwit: there is .. container:: foo to put it in a <div>
19:30:12Araq<div class = "foo">
19:30:13filwitif you guys know how to do that, I'll gladly revert to that format... or I can just remove the list icons, but honestly I think a tad more HTML is worth paying for the icons
19:30:32Araqthat should be enough to anchor the CSS, right?
19:30:41filwitAraq: perfect, thanks. That should fix it.
19:30:55Araqwell it's in the source
19:31:13Araqdid you simply miss it?
19:31:23filwitAraq: yeah I did a search for a solution, but didn't find anything quickly, so just got it working
19:31:50filwiti'll change it to that though, much better
19:31:54Araqweb/learn.txt
19:31:59Araqalready exists
19:32:22Araqand uses .. container:: standout
19:32:28filwityeah i just didn't know what to look for exactly (i didn't know container: ... would result in a <div class="...">)
19:32:40Araqoh ok, now you know
19:32:45filwityep
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19:46:26filwitAraq: why doesn't this line: https://github.com/Araq/Nim/blob/devel/web/documentation.txt#L18 have a '|' while other lines do?
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19:47:01Araqbecause the bars produce <br>s
19:47:15Araqand this line is just a continuation
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19:47:50Araqthe point of the 2 bars is to produce a single <br> between these 2 blocks
19:47:57filwitAh, okay.. so I should probably remove those (cause the text will automatically wrap and injected <br> could cause odd text formatting on some browsers)
19:48:38Araqer no?
19:49:05AraqI want the <br> betwee the header and the description
19:49:17filwitthat's not what I'm talking about
19:49:34filwitit's actually only line 41 which has an extra bar that doesn't need to be there
19:49:57filwitbut i see how it's working now
19:49:59Araqoh yeah, good point
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19:54:02filwitAraq: i'd like to normalize the capalization of the list names, eg, "Compiler User Guide" instead of "Compiler user guide". Cool?
19:54:17filwitit's just odd that some are caps and others are not
19:54:48Araqyup, fine with me
19:54:55filwitk
19:55:14filwitdoes User-Guide need a hyphen, btw?
19:55:24filwitlet me google i guess..
19:55:25def-no
19:55:29filwitk
19:57:28filwitdef-, Araq: I'd like to add a few more articles as well. I'd pulled the top ones off reddit (mostly yours def), but I just revert the text file so I need to add them back now.. what articles (and how many) do you guys think i should add?
19:57:44filwitI had pulled ... ***
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19:58:06flaviu__filwit: Post the art before you disappear again :P
19:59:01filwitflaviu__: will get that too you before I go. It needed to be organized a bit better which is why I didn't hand it too you yet.
19:59:53flaviu__Ok, great! I would much rather have unorgainized art than no art at all though.
20:00:17filwitnp, i'll hand them too you soon
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20:01:29filwitflaviu: it's mostly that Inkscape defaults to absolute URLs, so I need to check the links to make them relative so things aren't invisibly failing when you open them...
20:01:34filwitcrap he left
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20:02:18filwitAraq, def-: any thoughts on the articles I should add? Or are the 5 top rated reddit articles fine with you?
20:02:32filwit(top rated RECENT articles)
20:02:44def-filwit: i don't know which to add =/
20:02:56filwitps, def-, excellent work on all the blogs recently
20:03:03def-thanks
20:03:29filwitokay I'll just add what I think is best and take screenshots i guess.
20:03:31def-gokr has a nice article series as well
20:04:23filwityeah i noticed. we're currently pointing to one of his articles but I want to change that link to point to his Nim articles in general (like his Nim blog page) cause the current article being linked is a bit dated compared to his newer stuff
20:07:29def-it's funny that all the recent twitter posts about nim are in japanese
20:07:47filwitdidn't even know there was a twitter
20:19:29filwitAraq: koch website is failing: /home/philip/Development/Nim/Nim/tools/nimweb --website web/nim --putenv:nimversion=0.10.3
20:19:30filwitcannot open: web/nim.ini
20:19:59Araqnim c koch
20:20:00filwitcould have truncated that URI for you, sorry
20:20:00def-that should be website.ini?
20:20:07filwitAraq: k
20:22:27Araqyeah I recently renamed the nim.ini to something better
20:28:30filwitOkay, just about ready to update the PR, though I'm going to need to make another one soon after I work on the forums a bit.
20:28:51filwiti feel like i'm forgetting something dom96 requested changed last weekend tho...
20:29:00def-filwit: great that you're working on the website, much appreciated
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20:29:34filwitdef-: my pleasure. glad to see Nim is gaining momentum lately
20:31:01filwitoh right, that was it.. dom wanted me to change the banner a bit, but I wasn't sure what the conclusion about that was
20:31:08filwiti'll just take some screenshots first then
20:31:38def-Pretty active discussion on on /r/rust in case anyone is interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/2vqy81/author_of_unix_in_rust_abandons_rust_in_favor_of/
20:32:27filwitdef-: will take a look in a minute
20:32:59filwitAraq: can i push the Dr Dobbs Nimrod publications to the bottom of the articles list? (in favor of promoting newer articles)
20:34:16filwitdef-: that's odd, 60+ upvotes and %89 on that article in /r/rust..
20:36:54def-filwit: rust community is pretty nice
20:40:28flaviufilwit: Yep, but I read the logs.
20:40:48Araqflaviu: what do you mean?
20:41:25flaviuI read the irc logs
20:41:39Araqso?
20:41:54flaviu<filwit> crap he left
20:41:58filwitAraq: the Dr Dobbs article is the top of the list. Mind if i move to to the bottom (or lower) so that the more recent (up to date) articles like "What makes Nim practical?" gets more traffic?
20:42:05Araqflaviu: oh ok
20:42:19filwitflaviu: ahh.. was confused there for a sec
20:42:25filwitAraq: okay
20:42:33Araqfilwit: but the DrDobbs article is still the best :P
20:42:39Araqnah, of course it's fine with me
20:43:00def-Araq: should have published it with a fake name and we'd have a wikipedia article now
20:43:55Araqyeah but then nobody would know about wikipedia's insane dogma. it was a tradeoff.
20:45:53AraqI can publish books about Nim, doesn't count. Has to be done by somebody who knows less about Nim. But yeah, I can see they have to fight self promotion.
20:47:45def-Wikipedia has some good rules too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules
20:48:14Araqand once again my call for action: Help wikipedia. Delete any article that lacks secondary references. ;-)
20:50:06flaviuAraq: Being assholes won't solve anything.
20:51:24whitenoiseflaviu: being an asshole solves everything.
20:52:54whitenoisei think i may write a nim lib
20:53:30def-whitenoise: what for?
20:53:49whitenoisedef-: a scapy/gopacket clone. i have some code for it sitting around, and i find libs like that useful
20:54:05whitenoiseso i could learn and contribute at the same time
20:55:36whitenoisedef-: while i don't claim to be exceptional at it, i do a lot of infosec side projects, and part of my job entails security engineering type functions, leading up to whitebox pen tests, etc.
20:55:59whitenoiseso, you can imagine that Nim exploded my brain a little bit.
20:57:36whitenoiseI have a lot of old C code that I use that I can fold into a scripting language for really quick prototyping...and what I've been using stuff like Python for I can bring into the same language.
20:58:17whitenoiseI foresee a couple of awesome projects in Nim
20:58:23filwitAraq, dom96, def-, flaviu: incoming PR screenshots...
20:58:24filwithttp://reign-studios.net/philipwitte/nim/primgs/nim_docs.png
20:58:30filwithttp://reign-studios.net/philipwitte/nim/primgs/nim_learn.png
20:58:35filwithttp://reign-studios.net/philipwitte/nim/primgs/nim_banner_1.png
20:58:38filwithttp://reign-studios.net/philipwitte/nim/primgs/nim_banner_2.png
20:58:41filwithttp://reign-studios.net/philipwitte/nim/primgs/nim_banner_1.png
20:58:53filwitwhoops...
20:58:56filwithttp://reign-studios.net/philipwitte/nim/primgs/nim_banner_3.png
20:59:00filwitthat's it
20:59:05flaviutheindex should be closer to the top IMO
20:59:28filwityeah that always comes up
21:00:48def-filwit: Instead of "Nim With Dennis Felsing" it should be "How I Start: Nim"
21:01:00filwitdef-: okay
21:01:40filwiton that note, lets talk about link order
21:01:40flaviufilwit: Otherwise, looks good.
21:01:49filwitwhat should be top?
21:02:31filwitflaviu: I'm waiting for Araq to confirm your suggestion that Search be on top. Araq?
21:03:44Araqyou mean theindex?
21:03:46filwitdef-, flaviu: I'm trying to figure out which of those articles is the best place for beginners to start (i'm assuming they'll click on the top one first). Dr Dobbs will be moved down, but any idea on the order beyond that?
21:03:50filwitAraq: yes
21:03:57Araqthat should be a popup
21:04:05filwitwhat?
21:04:08Araqyou have to confirm 10x that you've read it
21:04:10whitenoisesince I've barely typed a line of Nim, if I can assist you in your decision-making, let me know :P
21:04:14whitenoisealthough, I am only one person
21:04:23flaviuI think nim-by-example is pretty good, although I'm a bit biased :P
21:04:36filwitAraq: lol
21:04:42Araqwhitenoise: that's fine. usually everybody thinks he is representative for all of mankind.
21:05:13filwitflaviu: nim-by-example isn't part of the articles and already is the top of it's section :P
21:05:28AraqI think theindex should be at the top *and* at the bottom
21:05:37filwitokay, well i'll just order them how i like i guess
21:05:49filwitAraq: ... lets just move it to the top...
21:05:54Araqand btw ...
21:05:54flaviuOk, sounds good.
21:06:12Araqwe need to merge docs and learn again cause we also need a "support" tab
21:07:02filwitAraq: yeah I was thinking how that going to fit in... BTW, I made it so 'community' and 'news' wont show in the top nav when you're on those pages
21:07:39filwitAraq: we could always do something like that.. put support in the sidebar (with "community", "github repo", etc) and not have a top nav
21:07:49Araqhrm yeah
21:08:02filwitAraq: then make a banner (first one) that talks about commercial support
21:08:05AraqI added this because I found it too confusing
21:08:21Araqwhen you're on the 'news' page and there is no 'news' tab
21:08:30Araqbut it surely is suboptimal
21:08:41Araqwe have too many tabs!
21:08:46flaviufilwit: What about mobile phones?
21:08:51filwitAraq: well it's kinda pointless with a page title and 'community' doesn't fit well at all
21:09:05filwitflaviu: what about them?
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21:09:30flaviuHave you given any thought to making them deal well with the website?
21:09:37filwitAraq: the thing is 'docs' and 'learn' separation is probably a good thing for new people
21:10:00flaviuNot that I'm asking you to do anything -- I'm just curious if you've thought of them.
21:10:04filwitflaviu: yes, it works well on mobile device browsers
21:10:24Araqit doesn't work at all on mine
21:10:36filwitflaviu: it's not a dynamic template like many blog websites.. but it scales well regardless
21:10:42Araqbut I never use my smartphone so I don't care
21:10:52filwitAraq: really? which ones, and in what way?
21:11:18filwiti have every mobile device you can think of, so let me know and I'll test and resolve the issues
21:11:29flaviufilwit: Have you made some changes in that direction? It doesn't look to good in Responsive Design Mode.
21:11:34flaviu*too
21:12:16filwiti've never messed around with Responsive Design Mode, i'll have to check it out
21:12:35filwitbut no, i haven't done any additional work on making it scale for mobile
21:12:45filwiti didn't realize there was any issues with that
21:12:51Araqugh. that means I have to get up...
21:12:53filwiti'll do some more testing there later on
21:13:03filwitAraq: don't bother, i'll run tests later
21:13:34flaviufilwit: This is what is initially visible: http://i.imgur.com/aJFuAbN.png
21:14:33filwityeah that's crap...
21:14:45filwitflaviu: is that a real device, or FF RDM?
21:14:53flaviuRDM
21:15:41filwitwell can you reproduce on a real device? I did tests on Android (multiple versions), iOS, Blackberry, Windows Tablet, Windows Phone 7 & 8 & 8.1...
21:16:08filwitplus Kindle Fire 1 & 2
21:16:28filwitthey all worked great when I tested, but that was awhile ago and perhaps something changed in the CSS
21:16:36filwiti'll take a look in a bit
21:17:42flaviuYeah, looks better on real devices.
21:20:52filwitAraq: are you fine with the banner changes?
21:21:21filwiti remember dom not liking the 'compile with ...' changes on the 3rd slide
21:22:08Araqwhat banner changes do you mean?
21:22:16filwitbut you talked about removing it completely... i personally like it the way I put it, but I don't want you guys to accpet this and be surprised later
21:22:25Araqlooks all the same to me
21:22:26filwitAraq: did you see the screenshots of the banner?
21:22:37Araqyeah
21:22:50filwitAraq: i changed code, highlighting, and the compile instructions on the last slide
21:23:02Araqoh that's what you mean
21:23:05filwitall slides have changes (actually... the second one doesnt)
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21:23:13Mat4hello
21:23:22Araqsure it's fine
21:23:35filwitokay great, will update the PR now then
21:23:39filwitone sec
21:23:41AraqI will complain later about it after I updated the website
21:24:17*askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
21:24:17AraqI see these things only after a couple of days :P
21:26:53whitenoisedef-: thank you for writing the brainfk interpreter
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21:27:46filwitAraq: updated - https://github.com/Araq/Nim/pull/2091
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21:28:16Mat4where of you have a blog ?
21:29:01def-Mat4: I don't understand the question
21:29:58Mat4who's here maintain a blog about there projects, personal views or what ever
21:30:12ldlework:(
21:30:14filwitAraq: biggest change to this PR is it fixes the banner roll stuff... it's completely broken on the current site, and I'm surprised no one is complaining... i guess no one waits around to see it roll, or they just don't know it actually rolls at all..
21:30:16ldleworkmy poor DO instance
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21:31:10Araqfilwit: works for me
21:31:25filwitAraq: it breaks pretty quick if you mess with it
21:31:49Araqno wait, you're right
21:31:54Araqit's broken
21:31:57Araqstrange
21:32:18Araqoh no, it ... sometimes works?
21:32:19filwityeah, the javascript was completely changed from what I had (and changed pointlessly) so i fixed it
21:32:31Araqhey, I changed it
21:32:41filwitbadly... :P
21:32:51Araqbecause it didn't work and it was hard to follow
21:32:59Araqand I only had 2 examples, not 4
21:33:12filwitplus the script was being included in every page even though the banner's only on the home page (fixed that too)
21:33:13def-Mat4: i have one with Nim posts on http://hookrace.net
21:33:38Araqfilwit: the banner used to be on every page :P
21:33:53Araquntil dom96 told me that's not how it should be ...
21:33:58filwitAraq: well the PR banner works flawlessly and starts right and stuff.
21:34:08ldleworkfilwit: how do you feel about css preprocessors
21:34:19Araqoh no
21:34:22Araqstop it!
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21:35:02Araqldlework: I don't want to install Ruby and Rubinius and 10 deps to create my website
21:35:07filwitldlwork: they save a lot of time if you're working on a big project. I don't use them much (at all) because I haven't taken the time to pick a favorite and learn it back-n-front (like I know regular CSS)
21:35:14Mat4def-: thanks, nice to read. What software do you use ?
21:35:23ldleworkfilwit: makes sense
21:35:32ldleworkAraq: everyone in the community is aware of your feelings on the matter :)
21:35:50filwitAraq: we could always right a CSS preprocessor in Nim :)
21:35:50Araqyes but apparently
21:36:09Araqnot everybody is aware that *I* am building the website
21:36:19ldleworkFor which others will support.
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21:36:56filwitdamn i just wrote 'write' as 'right'...
21:36:59filwitsilly brain
21:37:05ldleworkShould be doing this stuff in Docker anyway :)
21:37:28filwitnever used docker
21:37:42filwitmostly I've used Concrete5 and basic HTML/CSS (by hand)
21:37:45def-Mat4: i think that's jekyll
21:38:18ldleworkfilwit: That's something else entirely.
21:38:19filwiti avoided all the Dreamweaver/Frontpage things cause honestly I get more done without having to learn how that's going to translate to actual source
21:38:31ldleworkfilwit: Yeah Docker has nothing to do with that
21:38:44ldleworkI was responding to Araq's laments about having to install Ruby or whatever to build the site.
21:38:53filwitldlework: yeah i know Docker is about distributing or something, but haven't looked into it much
21:39:01filwitoh i see
21:39:03ldleworkWhen the building of the site should be encapsulated in a Dockerfile, built into an image and automatically deployed to wherever we're hosting it
21:39:31ldleworkI guess there's no one better to do that, than me so I should shut up.
21:40:28filwitfor Nim, simple HTML gen + FTP upload works great.
21:40:50ldleworkFamous last words.
21:41:19ldleworkWhen I tried to add a new banner thing, I gave up and swore I wouldn't work on the Nim site.
21:41:40ldleworkIt wasn't simple, clean, factored out, or anything.
21:42:00filwitnah, it's kinda overkill to use extra systems like that for individual projects really. It makes a lot of sense if you're working with a lot of clients and need consistency in how you manage their accounts. But for one project with multiple non-web-dev contributors it only complicates things, IMO
21:42:40Araqldlework: website.tmpl is 241 lines of code...
21:43:38ldleworkAraq: I have no idea what files were involved, but I remember I had to use grep, to track down where to even add the bit of code, and when I finally arrived there, it was like 3 copy-pastes of the same javascript and html and whatnot to specially craft each of the panels
21:44:09ldleworkSo I copy pasted one of them, for a new panel, attempted to edit it, and ended up fighting with the CSS to get my specific panel to look like the rest
21:44:31ldleworkThen gave up since, this is apparently as good as we care to get it.
21:44:50Mat4def-: I'am curious about your benchmark timings, specially the timings of LuaJIT against Haskell. What compilers have you used ?
21:45:12Araqyup, 240 lines of dirty code is nothing I lose sleep over.
21:45:21filwitldlework: keep in mind the CSS is bloated ATM... originally it spanned the website, forums, and docs... now the website includes CSS for the forums and docs that isn't being used at all, and the forums has a duplicated (modified) copy of all of it.
21:45:29filwitit's something I'm going to address next
21:45:31Mat4Araq: Really ?
21:45:40def-Mat4: the most recent ones available at the time of my measurements
21:45:51ldleworkBasically I'm hearing "No we don't wnat to use anything invested in the last 10 years to make web development easier"
21:46:01ldleworkso don't be surprised if it is hard to find help with it
21:46:17def-Mat4: for luajit that's 2.0.3, for haskell GHC 7.8.3 or 7.8.4
21:46:20AraqI'm not. I don't care. filwit is helping me.
21:47:17ldleworkAraq: except when he's not. As was the case for a few months? But this isn't an argument worth having.
21:47:50filwitldlework: that's silly, sorry. If you can't modify basic HTML/CSS (even if it's in a nim tmpl file) and ask questions on where to modify code to start on the IRC then that's more of your problem.
21:48:10Araqoh no no no! stop it.
21:48:20ldleworkfilwit: Yes because any time anyone has a problem editing some code, its because they have a lack of basic competency in that language.
21:48:28ldleworkfilwit: I see your 'point'. And it moves me dearly.
21:48:44Mat4too late
21:49:28filwitldlework: i'm not trying to pick a fight. but this project is way to simple to 'require' these tools you're suggesting. and to say we "wont get contributions" because we lack them is silly.
21:49:41AraqMat4: what is your question again?
21:50:42ldleworkfilwit: A good way to pick a fight is to attack someone's basic competency.
21:51:02ldleworkfilwit: but its your burden, so do what you want.
21:51:04Mat4are you really not afraid about 240 lines of dirty code (whatever this means) ?
21:51:31ldleworkI only do this professionally for 10+ years, what do Iknow about the maintainability of copy-pasta.
21:51:42ldleworkAnd those who defend its virtue.
21:53:52filwitldlework: look man, all petty insults aside, there's very few lines of HTML/CSS here. Your original point is about contribution doesn't work.
21:54:10ldleworkfilwit: how many contributors does the nim website have at this point?
21:54:17filwita few
21:54:22gokrCalm down people. Fighting over web standards? Hehe, how unique.
21:54:24ldleworkOne less than it could have.
21:54:33ldleworkAnd I'm not the only person who's complained
21:55:15gokrIMHO its the doers that decide. I am not stepping up for web duty, thus I keep my mouth shut. ldlework?
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21:55:59ldleworkgokr: I tried to doer and was told "No"
21:56:47gokrYou were told no when trying to contribute?
21:57:18filwitlook, i'm trying to phrase this in a non-insulting way... but you complain it isn't built the way your familiar with, so we lost 1 contributor because you can't/wont figure out how to contribute... the problem is there are a ton of build-systems out there. which to choose? maybe we should just keep the simple format and help people learn how to contribute to it.
21:57:36ldleworkgokr: you're saying "If you want X, make X happen" X here is not use copy-pasta, with no tooling and do everything hand because reasons. But I was informed this is exactly what shall continue.
21:57:55ldleworkSo no, I wasn't told I could contribute more shitty copy-pasta, I was told I couldn't introduce any tooling change.
21:58:01ldleworktold I couldn't*
21:58:27ldleworkfilwit: use any of them, rather than Ctl-C Ctl-V
21:58:33ldleworkThat's a start.
21:59:03filwitshitty copy-pasta? you couldn't even remember the files there where... what are you talking about? copy pasta where?
21:59:16ldleworkfilwit: go to the implementation of your banner
21:59:21ldleworkeach banner is hand crafted copy pasta
21:59:34filwityeah cause they're all different...
21:59:48filwitonly the wrapping div is duplicated
22:00:01filwitand that's a requirement... unless we're talking about a CMS
22:00:49dom96hey, what's up guys?
22:00:54filwitthe CSS is crap now, but that's not how it was originally designed
22:00:56ldleworkGood thing it works for you and I don't intend on touching it ever again.
22:01:09filwitdude, can me move pasted you being insulted?
22:01:19ldleworkI'm not sure where the insult there is.
22:01:26ldleworkGood thing it works for you, since you intend on maintaining it.
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22:01:38ldleworkGood thing for me, since I don't intend looking at it again, so we can stop conversing about it.
22:01:47filwitsure
22:02:11filwithey dom96
22:03:14filwitgod i can't spell today.. *sigh*
22:05:21filwitdom96: now that you're here, I want to talk about the CSS duplication with the web/forums
22:05:55filwitdom96: is there a reason you want the forum CSS separated from the web?
22:07:11filwitdom69: I can either remove all the forum/docs CSS from the website CSS, or make the forums link to the same CSS file as the website and stripe that CSS from the forum's CSS (i'd prefer this)
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22:10:15filwitdom96: i would prefer it because a) the forum and website share the same basic layout (head, neck, body, foot) and images, so it makes sense to include the file that already lays those out. and b) it will load faster (not a big concern at all)
22:10:41filwitdom96: scratch the loading faster part, that's not really a concern at all after the first hit of course
22:11:39filwitthe main reason is so that we keep things consistent. It doesn't make sense to make changes to two areas if we want to change something in the basic layout
22:13:00Mat4ciao
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22:14:56dom96filwit: I don't want the forum to be affected if somebody accidentally changes something incorrectly in the website's CSS.
22:15:50filwitdom96: you also don't want to be left behind if we have to update the basic layout or code-styling of the website
22:16:21dom96filwit: Then we will need to update the forum specific look anyway.
22:16:48filwitdom96: no.. take the background color of the page.. or the syntax colors, for examples
22:17:19filwitdom96: we need to change everything twice (and there's completely different CSS selectors) for both places
22:17:52filwitdom96: add to this the docs stuff when we eventually get to it, and we'll have three places...
22:19:02dom96The layout of the forum vs. website is completely different except for its skin. What I can agree to is if you put the forum specific CSS in a forum-specific CSS file, and import two CSS files in the forum.
22:19:46filwitno the layout is the same as the website except for one CSS line (it's 'full-width' or whatever)
22:19:57whitenoisethat would be the most efficient/sensible, is to have common elements (theme) to themselves, then another CSS file for the differing layouts.
22:20:37filwitactually, i think there's two or three lines, but everything else (about %80 of the CSS) is the same
22:21:10filwitwhitenoice: this is exactly what I'm suggesting..
22:21:28whitenoisei haven't read
22:21:50dom96filwit: The website does not display a list of threads like the forum does
22:21:55dom96the body of the page is completely different
22:22:08*whitenoise worked for web agencies and then operations for web applications for the last 3-4 years. has opinions.
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22:22:27filwitthat's not the majority of the CSS, and the code-blocks inside the forum and website *should* have the same CSS behind them
22:22:41dom96filwit: There is a vast majority which is different.
22:22:52dom96The styling for the threads, the posts, the thread list
22:22:54dom96the user side bar
22:23:26filwiti'm not talking about those parts... most of which are additions of yours I think
22:23:37filwiti'm talking about all the places that are similar (or very close)
22:23:51filwitlike the header, nav, body, foot, code-style, etc
22:23:51dom96So you're saying that 80% of things that are very close are similar?
22:23:57dom96I don't understant.
22:24:00dom96*understand
22:24:42dom96I'm talking about all of the CSS.
22:24:58dom96Like I already said, I am fine with you combining the things which are the same.
22:24:59filwitmost of the CSS works like this: #head { positioning, background, text-style, ect... } #head-fullwidth { slight position adjustment }
22:25:07dom96But move the forum-specific stuff into it's own file
22:25:13dom96don't keep it in the website's CSS
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22:29:31filwitso... you would rather have duplicated layout CSS (not forum specific stuff) between the website and forums?
22:29:52BlaXpiritfirst of all, there can be 2 files
22:30:04BlaXpiritincluded in 1 page
22:30:06BlaXpiritbut i don't think this is worth it
22:30:12filwitit seems your main concern is that these things (web and forum) are in seporate repos and you don't want the one you manage to depend on the other
22:30:17filwitam I correct?
22:30:20dom96yes
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22:31:06filwitso we should refactor the repos so that the shared CSS is in it's own, or make the website depend on the forums (if you it located there)
22:31:34filwitit just doesn't make sense to duplicate them unless we're doing a carbon copy every time we update one
22:32:02filwiti mean, we'll literally have two %99 duplicated files in both projects
22:32:47filwitpersonally, I think that will lead to more problems down the road (it already has create a few discrepancies)
22:32:52def-i agree with filwit, otherwise we'll just have differences between web and forum at some point by accident
22:34:25filwiti'm all for separating the web-specific, and forum-specific stuff... i just know there is a lot of code duplication and ~550 lines of code
22:35:14filwitthat's not huge or anything, but it's enough to make changing one thing in both places more of a pain than it should be
22:35:42filwitmore than likely, things wont be changed in both places (like they haven't been)
22:37:28filwitcan we meet in the middle somewhere? If we had a 'webshare' repo under nim-lang github account which only had the necessary duplicated files (and was a known dependency for both web and forum)
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22:42:14ldleworkI think filwit is obviously right.
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22:45:01filwitwell anyways dom96, think about it and let me know if something along those lines sits well with you. We can always duplicate things if you absolutely want (or as a temporary solutions), and I probably wont start hacking on this until tomorrow anyways, so whatever you decide..
22:46:14dom96filwit: As far as I'm concerned we've already met in the middle.
22:46:23dom96I feel like your arguing for something i've already agreed to.
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22:46:38dom96Is there something wrong with splitting off the forum specific CSS into it's own file?
22:46:57dom96and including both the website's CSS and the forum-specific CSS in the forum's html?
22:47:03dom96we don't need a separate repo for this
22:47:10BlaXpiritI support this
22:47:29dom96That said, it would be nice to move the website into its own repo.
22:47:40BlaXpiritI support this
22:49:41filwitdom96: "including both the website's CSS and the forum-specific CSS in the forum's html?" So, to be clear: you want a shared file... just a duplicated version (on in the web repo, and one in the forum repo)
22:50:09dom96no
22:50:24dom96I want a website.css file which contains the CSS common to the website and the forum
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22:50:36dom96and a forum.css file which contains the CSS specific only to the forum.
22:50:43dom96The forum should include website.css and forum.css.
22:50:58filwitokay perfect... that's what I was arguing for
22:51:07filwiti just thought you where saying something different
22:54:12*gokr I can hear something cool coming...
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23:01:15*gokr pokes Araq with a stick...
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23:07:17dom96gokr: oh?
23:08:26gokrSoon :)
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23:19:03Araqgokr: well I'm preparing a forum post
23:19:21gokrnice
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