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| 01:23:00 | whitenoise | Araq: i don't have a ton of time, but what opportunities are there for contribution to the project? seems like there's a lot of wheels turning, still. |
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| 01:25:18 | whitenoise | my experience includes networking knowhow, at least regarding TCP/IP and routing, etc, which I doubt is of any use. I'm an intermediate sort of developer, and I am primarily an Infrastructure/Linux Engineer that wears a Security Engineer hat for configuration/changes and whitebox pen testing. |
| 01:25:45 | whitenoise | oh, and I have some years of working for web agencies, so I'm familiar with web concepts, too. |
| 01:26:33 | whitenoise | my shortcoming is time :) |
| 01:27:00 | Araq | whitenoise: well we still have over 400 bugs open |
| 01:27:09 | Araq | some of which are marked "easy" |
| 01:27:16 | whitenoise | so I could learn Nim whilst bug fixing |
| 01:27:21 | Araq | which admittedly ... is er |
| 01:27:34 | Araq | well I think "that's easy" and it usually turns out it's not |
| 01:27:39 | whitenoise | haha |
| 01:27:46 | Araq | but ... it still is a good starting point, I think |
| 01:27:56 | whitenoise | this is in GitHub issues under nim-lang, I guess? |
| 01:28:04 | Araq | yes |
| 01:28:23 | Araq | stdlib bugs are also a good starting point |
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| 01:28:59 | Araq | I need to sleep, good night and welcome on board! |
| 01:29:07 | whitenoise | night, Araq and thanks |
| 01:34:30 | reactormonk | whitenoise, actually it's under Araq/nim |
| 01:43:17 | dom96 | whitenoise: https://github.com/Araq/Nim/labels/Easy |
| 01:48:13 | whitenoise | dom96: i looked for Easy + stdlib, and found the ssl stuff |
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| 01:49:14 | whitenoise | looks like people have already been touching that, though |
| 01:49:28 | whitenoise | at any rate, apparently i am now cooking dinner, so coding time is over before it began. |
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| 01:59:57 | whitenoise | dom96: as far as contribution process, is it just fork, code, pull request? I see there is a diff output in the GitHub comments, which to me seems not the best way to deliver, but is that the norm? |
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| 02:25:43 | filwit | whitenoise: fork, code, PR. yep. |
| 02:29:07 | infinity0 | Araq: no, i'm not joking |
| 02:29:18 | infinity0 | Debian doesn't actually routinely run 40k of autogenerated autoconf scripts |
| 02:29:28 | infinity0 | we use dh-autoreconf to regenerate them from configure.ac etc |
| 02:30:04 | infinity0 | please at least re-open the issue, you didn't explain why it's invalid |
| 02:30:17 | infinity0 | if you don't want to fix it yourself, you can at least leave it open so others can see it's a problem |
| 02:32:53 | infinity0 | in general, upstreams that bundle autogenerated code, we delete that and regenerate them from the real sources |
| 02:35:39 | infinity0 | https://github.com/nim-lang/csources/issues/12 for others' reference |
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| 03:01:46 | infinity0 | Araq: so for example, to bootstrap GCC you need an existing C compiler (unknown trust), but then you compile GCC's source code (which is human-reviewable, i.e. verifiable/trustworthy) with it |
| 03:02:40 | infinity0 | by contrast, with nim, we must use some external tools (unknown trust, nim not responsible for this) to compile autogenerated source code (unknown trust, nim responsible for this) |
| 03:04:39 | infinity0 | this is not an ideal situation, and not something that the builder should be responsible for solving, since the autogenerated code is an intrinsic part of the upstream build process |
| 03:05:27 | infinity0 | it's reasonable for builders (e.g. Debian) to be responsible for providing external tools that can be trusted, but that's not the target of my complaint here |
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| 03:13:38 | reactormonk | infinity0, there's no way to you can get the generated code to be human-readable |
| 03:13:50 | reactormonk | not without any unreasonable effort at least |
| 03:16:30 | infinity0 | reactormonk: hmm, could you tell me which parts of the nim source code, generate csources? |
| 03:16:46 | reactormonk | infinity0, the compiler. look for "rope" instances |
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| 03:23:21 | infinity0 | reactormonk: what about the first version of the nim compiler, that would originally have been written in another language? |
| 03:23:27 | reactormonk | infinity0, pascal |
| 03:23:54 | reactormonk | a subset of it, actually |
| 03:24:19 | flaviu | infinity0: It's impractical to read the C sources, there's lots of code generation there through iterators, templates, macros. |
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| 03:27:04 | flaviu | Honestly, I don't see a good solution here. A trusting trust attack is possible, but I'd think that an obfuscated backdoor would be a thousand times easier to implement and therefore would be a more likely target. |
| 03:29:14 | infinity0 | by that, you mean a backdoor in the source code? it would be easier to implement, but also harder to hide |
| 03:29:35 | infinity0 | i guess nim doesn't try to translate to any higher-level languages, only C |
| 03:29:57 | flaviu | It also translates to C++ |
| 03:30:06 | flaviu | And javascript, but IIRC that's buggy. |
| 03:30:34 | reactormonk | infinity0, even if it would, it's not a source-to-source compiler |
| 03:31:42 | flaviu | It would be harder to hide, but given that only 2-3 people actually regularly look at the internals of the compiler, it wouldn't be too obvious. |
| 03:32:02 | flaviu | The Underhanded C contest has shown there are plenty of non-obvious ways to backdoor things. |
| 03:32:56 | infinity0 | but that's still more than the 0 people who actually try to figure out what csources actually does |
| 03:33:18 | infinity0 | anyway, i appreciate this is a hard problem that probably doesn't seem high priority, i will keep looking into it |
| 03:33:33 | reactormonk | infinity0, I see your point, but it would require immense resources to tackle it |
| 03:34:00 | reactormonk | infinity0, so recursive bootstrapping from pascal would be reasonable? |
| 03:34:13 | flaviu | That sounds like a major PITA |
| 03:34:35 | infinity0 | i'd need to think about that. maybe, maybe not, depending on the details of whatever is feasible |
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| 03:35:17 | infinity0 | also i can look into how other thigns |
| 03:35:27 | infinity0 | er, whoops. how other languages do (or don't do) it |
| 03:37:07 | flaviu | I was just thinking of that. |
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| 04:56:30 | jferg2010 | def-: I saw the reference to documentation on the GSoC 2015 wiki entry. What's the state of documentation and related tools? Is someone actively working on that? |
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| 05:04:08 | reactormonk | jferg2010, kinda meh. |
| 05:04:41 | reactormonk | jferg2010, https://github.com/Araq/Nim/labels/Documentation |
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| 05:09:49 | jferg2010 | reactormonk: Thanks for the link. Let me look through the list and see where I might be able to help. |
| 05:16:34 | Varriount | onionhammer: Good news. I've found a way lessen the number of callbacks that need to be created for interacting with the sublime api |
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| 09:27:46 | Araq | infinity0: what is realistic is to review the generated C code. it's not *impossible* to follow with some experience. |
| 09:34:38 | Araq | that said, I don't see how reviewing GCC's source for backdoors helps with anything when you used an untrusted binary to compile it ... |
| 09:35:16 | Araq | the point of Thompson's paper was to show that's futile |
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| 12:53:42 | infinity0 | Araq: it helps, because you can use other techniques such as diverse double compilation to deal with the issue of "untrusted external tools", thompson's attack is not actually futile to defend against |
| 12:55:15 | infinity0 | however, if the bootstrap source code is itself not reviewable, then making sure you have (effectively) clean building tools, doesn't achieve the overall goal of a clean resulting binary |
| 12:56:35 | Araq | it's as reviewable as GCC's source code ... ;-) |
| 12:56:52 | Araq | it's also less code to review than GCC |
| 12:57:20 | Araq | it's still an exercise in masochism, of course |
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| 13:00:44 | Araq | but masochism is definitely helpful when you care about security in a system consisting of millions of lines of C code (called kernel) which embraces programs communicating via untyped byte streams and string evalutation purposes (called userspace) |
| 13:01:48 | Araq | security in a unix based system is a staircase wit. |
| 13:10:01 | dom96 | hello |
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| 13:43:24 | gokr | hey |
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| 13:49:12 | sillesta | hey |
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| 15:04:57 | dom96 | Just deployed some fixes and functionality to the Nim Forum. Biggest addition is the ability to deactivate your account as well as the ability for admins to ban users. |
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| 15:18:41 | gXen | rustix will be written in nim.. nice job guys |
| 15:20:56 | def- | gXen: yeah, tried it out already, doesn't seem to be doing much so far except print a full screen of characters |
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| 15:41:39 | filwit | dom96: hey do you think I should add the "build server" side-nav link back to the website? It was on my original design (in case you forgot what it looked like): http://www.reign-studios.net/philipwitte/nim/ |
| 15:42:04 | filwit | dom96: it could just point to the build waterfall the github repo has |
| 15:45:19 | federico3 | oh look at that: |
| 15:45:22 | federico3 | https://github.com/ckkashyap/rustix/issues/8 |
| 15:46:45 | dom96 | filwit: Sure. It would be awesome if you could fix layout issues on the forum. |
| 15:47:10 | dom96 | like the page numbers overflowing to the next line on the main page |
| 15:47:42 | filwit | dom96: yeah that's something that's been bugging me too. will get to it |
| 15:47:54 | dom96 | filwit: http://i.imgur.com/AjNnrn6.png |
| 15:48:00 | filwit | araq said he want's more space between paragraphs as well |
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| 15:50:26 | filwit | dom96: it's a bit tricky to fix the numbers from rolling over (since both the numbers and title expand dynamically) but I'm sure I can figure something out. The alternative is to leave the numbers wrapping but have the black box on the right expand correctly (that's easy) |
| 15:51:28 | dom96 | filwit: yeah, the latter might be better. |
| 15:51:38 | dom96 | I couldn't figure out how to do the latter either though heh |
| 15:52:10 | filwit | you have to use position:relative + top, right, left, bottom :) |
| 15:52:38 | filwit | that makes it easy to snap all the edges where you need them relative to the parent |
| 15:52:55 | filwit | but i'll look into fixing the numbers first, cause that would be best, visually IMO |
| 15:54:29 | filwit | btw dom, nice work on the search and login panel |
| 15:54:34 | filwit | looks good (fits in well) |
| 15:54:38 | dom96 | thanks :) |
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| 16:03:34 | whitenoise | ah, rustix, nice, imo nim is a way better kernel language than rust |
| 16:03:48 | whitenoise | i was actually pondering that on my way home from work yesterday |
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| 16:07:32 | filwit | dom96: mind if I change the RSS icon to something more iconic? (ie, a single-color black RSS symbol, visually similar to the view/post symbols) |
| 16:07:43 | dom96 | filwit: nope, go ahead. |
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| 16:20:39 | filwit | dom96: there's no need to have two JS files (since one just calls the single function of the other), we should combine them. Keep the 'forum.js' name or 'arrow.js'? |
| 16:21:00 | dom96 | forum.js |
| 16:21:02 | filwit | k |
| 16:22:48 | filwit | oooohhhhh... i could make custom smileys :D |
| 16:23:27 | filwit | i'm not sure I understand why you divided up the graphics though.. You link to the Nim logo from the website, but not the background, head, nav, etc... why? |
| 16:23:53 | filwit | (wait, who made those smileys... dont' want to overwrite your work if you made them) |
| 16:24:56 | filwit | also the JS is duplicated in the CSS folder... hrm |
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| 16:27:15 | dom96 | filwit: what's wrong with the current smileys? |
| 16:29:01 | filwit | nothing |
| 16:29:16 | filwit | i just thought making smileys sounded fun |
| 16:29:39 | filwit | would be the last thing i did anyways, it's not important |
| 16:30:22 | filwit | do you have any idea why all the image on the forum seems to load with every refresh? |
| 16:30:36 | filwit | i think some setting on your host system isn't caching right |
| 16:31:20 | dom96 | filwit: I haven't implemented any caching |
| 16:31:45 | dom96 | filwit: could you remove the borders around the main content in the forum's design? |
| 16:32:14 | filwit | so the body is "full width" like the website? |
| 16:32:36 | dom96 | I guess |
| 16:32:51 | dom96 | bbl |
| 16:37:16 | filwit | dom96: when you get back, please tell me the host systems you're using for the website & forum so I can look into fixing the cache issue. It's not something you implement, but a server header issue telling the browser to always pull the graphics. |
| 16:38:01 | filwit | I'm not an expert on these things, so I'll need to know what you guys are using to look up how to fix it. |
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| 16:39:44 | federico3 | <3 help2man |
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| 16:56:10 | dom96 | filwit: This needs to be implemented in jester AFAIK |
| 16:57:01 | infinity0 | Araq: do you have a build script for the documentation? |
| 16:57:15 | federico3 | infinity0: I'm working on it ATM |
| 16:57:31 | filwit | dom96: okay, makes sense. |
| 16:57:56 | infinity0 | it should really be part of the upstream release, though. the structure is unclear, some files import other files so we don't want to build those child files directly |
| 16:58:33 | federico3 | infinity0: have you built the last package? |
| 16:58:38 | infinity0 | also there are replacements like |nimversion| |
| 16:59:26 | infinity0 | federico3: i'm trying out the debian package and the documentation building atm has some flaws |
| 16:59:46 | infinity0 | i was hoping upstream has a script for it somewhere, that was neglected to be included in the zip |
| 17:00:10 | federico3 | infinity0: ok, it's also not building the nice "theindex.html" page yet, but we are getting there |
| 17:00:34 | dom96 | infinity0: how are you guys building it? |
| 17:00:39 | dom96 | Are you using ./koch web? |
| 17:00:48 | infinity0 | ah, koch isn't part of the nim zip |
| 17:00:56 | infinity0 | i guess we could do that |
| 17:01:07 | infinity0 | oh wait, yes it is |
| 17:01:09 | infinity0 | i see |
| 17:01:28 | federico3 | that seems to be building some pages specific to the website as well |
| 17:02:53 | infinity0 | that's fine, we can bundle it |
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| 17:04:38 | def- | infinity0: you're working on a debian build for nim? |
| 17:04:49 | infinity0 | yes federico3 and i are |
| 17:06:11 | def- | Great, would love to see Nim in Debian |
| 17:14:52 | infinity0 | wow, koch clean removes debian/ :/ |
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| 17:22:08 | infinity0 | is there a way to regenerate nim_icon.o and koch_icon.o? |
| 17:32:09 | def- | infinity0: why do you need them? They're Windows only, right? You can build them with windres |
| 17:32:41 | def- | for linux the .ico files should be fine |
| 17:32:48 | filwit | Miroserf Windres 10 |
| 17:33:15 | def- | filwit: the program is actually called windres... |
| 17:33:25 | filwit | oh really? lol |
| 17:33:28 | def- | https://sourceware.org/binutils/docs/binutils/windres.html |
| 17:33:32 | filwit | i thought was just a spelling mistake |
| 17:36:00 | infinity0 | ah ok |
| 17:36:13 | infinity0 | i guess we can delete them just to be safe |
| 17:36:22 | def- | Sure |
| 17:37:04 | infinity0 | it is unnecessary to install the .idx files right? they are just to generate some of the index html files? |
| 17:39:15 | def- | seems so, don't see them being used anywhere |
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| 18:09:28 | reactormonk | infinity0, I would guess they're used to build the index |
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| 20:25:13 | atgnag | Does nim have a good sockets library? |
| 20:26:03 | Araq | yes, I think one can call it "good" by now |
| 20:26:19 | atgnag | All right. |
| 20:26:30 | atgnag | I think I might create an irc bot then. |
| 20:27:11 | def- | atgnag: from scratch? there's an irc library as well |
| 20:27:24 | atgnag | Oh, really? Well, that also helps. |
| 20:27:39 | atgnag | In stdlib? |
| 20:27:52 | def- | https://github.com/nim-lang/irc and an existing bot it seems: https://github.com/nim-lang/nimbot |
| 20:28:14 | def- | atgnag: it was in the stdlib once, but now moved out. "nimble install irc" should work |
| 20:29:49 | atgnag | All right. Good to know. |
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| 20:31:04 | chroem | As there any way I can get at the uncompiled C code that gets generated? |
| 20:31:23 | chroem | I want to try converting it to asm.js. |
| 20:31:33 | * | brson joined #nim |
| 20:31:41 | def- | the c code lands in the nimcache directory |
| 20:31:53 | chroem | Alright |
| 20:32:12 | * | Mat4 joined #nim |
| 20:32:18 | Mat4 | hi all |
| 20:32:20 | def- | with --compileOnly only the c code is generated, no binary |
| 20:32:22 | def- | hi Mat4 |
| 20:32:40 | chroem | Cool, thanks. |
| 20:34:57 | atgnag | It's pretty neat how fast things compile, I must say. I'm not sure it's quite golang speed, but it's really convenient. |
| 20:36:11 | Mat4 | indeed, the compilation speed is good compared to other languages which compile to C |
| 20:36:15 | atgnag | Also, what's babel? |
| 20:36:37 | def- | atgnag: babel is the old name of nimble, Nim's package manager |
| 20:37:36 | Araq | atgnag: we haven't really optimized compile-times yet |
| 20:38:46 | Mat4 | Araq: it's definitly not an issue in my opinion |
| 20:39:21 | Araq | Mat4: nor is it in my todo/roadmap ;-) |
| 20:40:03 | Mat4 | good to know ;-) |
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| 20:55:21 | atgnag | Does aporia build against nim-devel? |
| 20:55:57 | BlaXpirit | pretty sure |
| 20:56:07 | def- | atgnag: yes, but you have to use the head: nimble install "aporia@#head" |
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| 21:04:24 | Varriount | Meep |
| 21:05:22 | atgnag | def-: Thanks. |
| 21:08:07 | Araq | http://forum.nim-lang.org/t/870 |
| 21:08:53 | BlaXpirit | amazing |
| 21:10:57 | Araq | well it was an open secret at this point ... I guess |
| 21:13:27 | flaviu | Araq: I had no idea you and gokr were working together :) |
| 21:14:17 | def- | "open secret"? more like total news to me |
| 21:14:43 | def- | Sounds great, financial backing for Nim |
| 21:14:54 | Araq | maybe I'll manage to produce a youtube video from the demo |
| 21:15:19 | flaviu | So now you can do bug fixes full time? ;) |
| 21:16:49 | Araq | well there certainly are other priorities ;-) but yes, I can spend more time on Nim's core. |
| 21:17:48 | * | chemist69 joined #nim |
| 21:21:35 | flaviu | Looking at Urho3D too, looks very intersting. |
| 21:22:17 | Varriount | *gasp* |
| 21:22:27 | Araq | it uses every C++ feature under the sun ... and for good reasons. but it was really hard to wrap. the result is 250 modules of Nim wrapper code.. |
| 21:23:36 | flaviu | Is c-blake also with 3DICC? |
| 21:24:09 | Araq | no. |
| 21:24:18 | Varriount | onionhammer: Ping |
| 21:24:19 | * | flaviu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 21:24:26 | * | flaviu joined #nim |
| 21:29:12 | vendethiel | Araq: congrats :) |
| 21:29:39 | Araq | thank you. :-) |
| 21:30:05 | gokr | Hey guys |
| 21:30:49 | Araq | gokr: die Katze ist aus dem Sack |
| 21:30:57 | gokr | Yeah! |
| 21:31:12 | gokr | I took 3 years of German, so that I can parse fine ;) |
| 21:31:43 | Mat4 | congratulation |
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| 21:36:12 | gokr | So feel free to ask questions about 3DICC etc |
| 21:38:08 | Varriount | Hrm, should we post this on reddit/hacker news/the internets? |
| 21:38:36 | Mat4 | good idea in my opinion |
| 21:40:39 | Varriount | Mat4: Yes, but it shouldn't be done without consent. |
| 21:40:40 | gokr | The Urhonimo wrapper is pretty cool to post about. And the very capable C++ wrapping capability in itself is quite cool. And us betting on Nim and hiring Andreas, well, perhaps not that kindof news. |
| 21:41:19 | gokr | Its not a secret, and in fact - us going dark on this is |
| 21:41:33 | gokr | not for 3DICC reasons. ;) |
| 21:41:46 | * | gokr points at Araq |
| 21:43:11 | gokr | Btw, us from 3DICC is thus me, Araq and itsmeront |
| 21:44:48 | gokr | But yes, the fact that Andreas now works on/with Nim full time is probably going to be a boost ;) |
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| 21:47:01 | Araq | gokr: I guess I should also send an email to the ML? I shouldn't be biased. |
| 21:47:58 | gokr | Also, if people wonder - we at 3DICC have been active in the open source arena for a long time. Our whole system is built purely out of open source technology. So we have no intention whatsoever to try to make Nim "ours". We want it to thrive as it is. The only sofware we will keep under commercial license - is our own product. |
| 21:48:27 | gokr | Araq: Sure, doesn't hurt! |
| 21:49:18 | Mat4 | gokr: Of course |
| 21:50:07 | gokr | Releasing the Urhonimo wrapper as MIT is only natural to us. We hope more people use it. And Andreas kept it under "wraps" since he wanted to have it working before showing it ;) |
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| 21:51:55 | Araq | oh and the wrapper is not stable :P we'll improve the API without concerns about backwards compatibility |
| 21:52:07 | Araq | I think. |
| 21:52:23 | * | Araq already has improvements in the pipeline |
| 21:53:13 | Araq | hi xet7 welcome |
| 21:53:36 | xet7 | Araq hi, is devel head broken? I got some compile error. |
| 21:53:49 | Araq | what error? |
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| 21:54:18 | xet7 | lib/system.nim(2453, 52) Error: invalid pragma: benign and then FAILURE |
| 21:54:41 | def- | xet7: you're following the bootstrapping instructions? |
| 21:54:52 | Araq | yeah that's unfortunate but 10.2 cannot build 10.3 anymore |
| 21:54:54 | xet7 | yes on website |
| 21:55:11 | xet7 | how can I get newest version? |
| 21:55:29 | Araq | you only need to ensure not some old nim binary is used |
| 21:55:40 | Araq | and install from C sources |
| 21:55:57 | xet7 | where is instructions for install? |
| 21:56:02 | def- | https://github.com/araq/nim#compiling |
| 21:56:08 | xet7 | ok thanks :) |
| 21:56:36 | Varriount | If only we could rewrite the repo's history all willy-nilly |
| 21:56:50 | Araq | Varriount: why? |
| 21:56:51 | gokr | xet7: In those instructions - don't miss out on the "-b devel" that needs to accompany both clones. |
| 21:56:56 | Mat4 | I have these terminal-emulation library (it's basical an emulator for a simple video-display processor I've once developed) which needs SDL 2. Can I assume the Urhonimo wrapper where be a good replacement for it ? |
| 21:57:01 | gokr | xet7: If you want devel that is. |
| 21:57:10 | Varriount | Araq: To introduce changes that allow older versions to compile newer versions |
| 21:57:34 | Araq | well I can see if I can make it compatible with 10.2 again |
| 21:58:07 | def- | Araq: don't think that's worth the effort when you canjust bootstrap, or is it? |
| 21:59:13 | Araq | well I dunno. it's bad no previous version can build the next one |
| 22:00:05 | def- | you can make a chain by going a few commit steps at a time and recompiling ;) |
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| 22:04:42 | fowl | basic2d and basic3d docs are missing |
| 22:06:35 | Sembei | talking about 3d ... there's any creative programming libraries like openframeworks for nim ? |
| 22:07:06 | xet7 | Ok now I got devel compiled and it works :) |
| 22:07:23 | fowl | do i just add a srcdoc2 field to website.ini? |
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| 22:07:55 | flaviu | This is a while ago and I haven't seen any problems recently, but http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=6771453&cid=48860921 |
| 22:08:32 | gokr | I was just about to post that link - please guys, click on it, and then think about it. |
| 22:11:04 | Araq | fowl: and you have do edit ... doc/lib.txt iirc |
| 22:13:42 | xet7 | how do I install nimble ? |
| 22:13:53 | def- | https://github.com/nim-lang/nimble#installation |
| 22:14:01 | xet7 | thanks def- |
| 22:15:29 | Mat4 | ok, probably not |
| 22:16:00 | flaviu | I don't like the idea of having a list of rules, but would temporary +q's be acceptable to the community if discussion turned uncivil? |
| 22:17:03 | Varriount | flaviu: The problem with that is that araq and dom96 are the only ones with op access, and they aren't always around. |
| 22:17:09 | * | atgnag is now known as Schnaube2t |
| 22:17:18 | * | Schnaube2t is now known as Schnaube1t |
| 22:17:19 | gokr | I find it hard to understand why it should be so hard to be civil. |
| 22:17:40 | * | Schnaube1t is now known as atgnag |
| 22:17:53 | Araq | Varriount: what? flaviu and def- are ops too iirc |
| 22:18:04 | Varriount | I'd like to think that I'm fairly civil most of the time.. |
| 22:18:05 | Araq | aren't you an op as well? |
| 22:18:17 | Varriount | Araq: Nope. I'm not an admin on the forum either. |
| 22:18:26 | Araq | oh you mean the forum |
| 22:18:35 | Araq | flaviu is talking about this IRC channel |
| 22:18:59 | flaviu | He isn't op in irc either, apparently. |
| 22:20:00 | Araq | flaviu: temporary +q's are in our guidelines: |
| 22:20:07 | Araq | https://github.com/Araq/Nim/wiki/IRC-guidelines |
| 22:20:52 | flaviu | I think that only dom96 can add ops. |
| 22:21:46 | Varriount | Araq: I mean both. |
| 22:22:05 | Varriount | I'm not an op on the irc channel, nor am I an admin on the forum. |
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| 22:22:28 | Araq | that sounds bad, how do you manage to survive? just kidding. |
| 22:22:56 | BlaXpirit | really seems like Varriount deserves some rights |
| 22:23:32 | fowl | lol |
| 22:24:01 | Araq | not sure if that's the right command my IRC foo is non-existant |
| 22:24:17 | flaviu | Araq: Nope, Varriount will loose his OP if he ever deops. |
| 22:24:28 | Araq | yeah of course |
| 22:24:31 | flaviu | use /msg ChanServ ACCESS #nim LIST to get a list of ops. |
| 22:25:26 | Araq | flaviu: doesn't work. |
| 22:25:42 | BlaXpirit | flaviu's command just worked for me |
| 22:25:50 | fowl | 'access list #nim' |
| 22:26:09 | flaviu | Well, here's the output: https://gist.github.com/flaviut/a74c45dd35170d9790fe |
| 22:27:45 | fowl | then he cant add ops either |
| 22:27:58 | Araq | yup, too bad |
| 22:28:56 | Araq | I can make him an admin on the forum though. in theory. |
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| 22:30:54 | flaviu | dom96: Ping. Please add +O on all the ops, +o on Varriount, and +F on Araq. |
| 22:31:20 | flaviu | Actually, I misunderstood +O. Don't add that. |
| 22:34:10 | Sembei | we have stats about how is growing nim on user basis ? |
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| 22:36:03 | Varriount | Sembei: Well, there's the channel user count, as well as the number of forum members and mailing list members. |
| 22:36:47 | Araq | and the ever growing list of github watchers/stargazers (is that really a word?) |
| 22:38:24 | Sembei | on gihub counts more contributors |
| 22:39:50 | Sembei | watchers can click one time and be inactive |
| 22:40:25 | Araq | ok, then we still suck I guess :P |
| 22:40:34 | Sembei | hahahaha |
| 22:45:55 | dom96 | I think we've got enough OPs here now. |
| 22:46:10 | Varriount | :< |
| 22:46:47 | Araq | dom96: really? what about some OP that actually does something? |
| 22:47:16 | dom96 | Araq: hrm? |
| 22:48:04 | flaviu | dom96: You should still add +F to Araq. |
| 22:49:50 | dom96 | flaviu: What does that gain him? |
| 22:50:46 | flaviu | Founder status, which I think is like a super-op. |
| 22:51:13 | dom96 | Varriount: But ok, i'll give you +o. |
| 22:52:04 | dom96 | I expect all OPs to follow this btw: https://github.com/Araq/Nim/wiki/IRC-guidelines |
| 22:52:18 | dom96 | Would be awesome if somebody wrote some community rules. |
| 22:52:22 | dom96 | Similar to Rust's. |
| 22:52:54 | dom96 | So that we can point to them if somebody is being rude. |
| 22:53:28 | flaviu | I'm not a big fan of rules, I feel that everyone here knows what being civil is. |
| 22:53:50 | def- | flaviu: lets call them guidelines instead |
| 22:54:39 | fowl | we should call them by-laws and we should enact committees to come up with them |
| 22:55:09 | flaviu | heh |
| 22:55:13 | fowl | it should be a very rigorous legislative progress that takes years to accomplish anything |
| 22:55:20 | dom96 | Yeah, sure. I should have used the word "guidelines". |
| 22:55:47 | fowl | fuck. im being sarcastic |
| 22:56:26 | fowl | hopefully some anonymous andy wont read that and judge the programming language negatively |
| 22:57:14 | dom96 | Araq: What do you think of this? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9050999 Bug or not? |
| 22:58:13 | Araq | pfff such an old hat |
| 22:58:14 | flaviu | fowl: Lets be civil. I feel just as uncomfortable as whoever complained felt. |
| 22:59:07 | Araq | dom96: the dangers of compiling to C are widely known. he didn't even go into the real problems here. |
| 23:00:04 | gokr | flaviu: I am with you 100%. But not fully with you on the "everyone here knows what being civil is". Or well, perhaps they know but simply don't abide ;) |
| 23:00:43 | Triplefox | i recommend for policy, gentle reminders of time spent on a discussion. that helped cool things down the last time i tried it. |
| 23:01:18 | fowl | flaviu, i can't not be sarcastic. its a personality flaw i guess, i can't turn it off |
| 23:02:53 | flaviu | fowl: Sarcasm is fine IMO, but calling someone an "anonymous andy" is rude. |
| 23:04:55 | fowl | i disagree |
| 23:05:25 | fowl | flaviu, thanks for that link on linear interpolation the other night |
| 23:06:12 | fowl | not sarcastic, it helped a lot |
| 23:06:23 | flaviu | Sure, no problem. That footnote at the bottom is the part I find most interesting. |
| 23:06:51 | dom96 | Araq: so not worth a bug report then? |
| 23:07:12 | flaviu | dom96: Araq has already replied, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9051068 |
| 23:07:41 | Araq | dom96: yes, open a bug report. we should at least provide a nicer clang configuration out of the box |
| 23:09:01 | dom96 | flaviu: cool |
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| 23:16:56 | flaviu | gokr, dom96: https://github.com/Araq/Nim/wiki/Community-Guidelines-%5BProposal%5D |
| 23:18:10 | dom96 | flaviu: would be nice to define some of the terms used there such as trolling, flaming and baiting with links to their definitions. |
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| 23:23:58 | flaviu | dom96: I've clarified. |
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| 23:29:02 | Triplefox | more suited for conferences, but maybe useful for thoughts on channel policy http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/codes-of-conduct-101-faq |
| 23:30:35 | fowl | wow this urho3d wrapper is interesting |
| 23:31:56 | fowl | importcpp: "#.GetResource<'*0>(@)" |
| 23:32:25 | Araq | fowl: it's documented in nimc.txt devel version |
| 23:36:06 | fowl | that is awesome |
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| 23:39:33 | onionhammer | Varriount whats up |
| 23:41:26 | gokr | fowl: Did you manage to run the example? character.nim? |
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| 23:41:52 | gokr | flaviu: And yes, guidelines look like a good start. A bit short? |
| 23:42:26 | gokr | flaviu: Although I don't favor long winding documents, but given its adapted from Rust - one may wonder why lots of parts were cut out :) |
| 23:42:55 | onionhammer | Wow Araq, just saw the news, cool :) |
| 23:43:00 | fowl | i didnt try gokr, it looks complicated though |
| 23:43:10 | gokr | fowl: Its not really. |
| 23:43:28 | flaviu | gokr: I suppose it's a good idea to copy the full thing from rust |
| 23:43:31 | gokr | Build Urho3D is easy. It spits out libUrho3D.a |
| 23:43:56 | flaviu | although I think that giving ops discretion as to how they handle things is a good idea. |
| 23:43:56 | gokr | Its all fully contained also, so builds very nicely without chasing deps. |
| 23:44:07 | gokr | Then you need nim devel. |
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| 23:44:41 | gokr | And then to build character.nim - you basically just "nim cpp character" and then copy those dirs so that it finds data. |
| 23:45:37 | gokr | flaviu: I don't say we need to copy. Then it may not carry much weight. |
| 23:45:49 | fowl | gokr, btw you can check the compile mode is not cpp then use {.error.} |
| 23:46:13 | gokr | flaviu: But I can read more carefully and give more constructive... proposals. |
| 23:47:11 | fowl | gokr, since you say in the readme using nim c gives strange errors |
| 23:47:15 | gokr | Also, Urho3D has many more examples - if you just want to see its capabilities. They are in either C++, AngelScript or Lua. The character example in Urhonimo is adapted from the C++ example. |
| 23:47:27 | gokr | fowl: It was Araq who wrote that ;) |
| 23:48:39 | fowl | defined(cpp) iirc |
| 23:48:49 | gokr | So beside having a super cool 3D gaming engine (not just graphics) that runs fine on OSX, Linux, Windows, iOS and Android - we also now have a very strong story on C++ wrapping. |
| 23:48:57 | gokr | That that is a killer feature for Nim I would say. |
| 23:49:04 | gokr | "And that" |
| 23:49:23 | flaviu | gokr: Lots of the stuff in that rust COC is about discrimination on "personal characteristics". I've never seen any problems with that in #nim. |
| 23:49:49 | gokr | flaviu: Agree, we can try to limit us a bit. |
| 23:50:22 | flaviu | The main problem in this channel is flaming, mostly unintentional. |
| 23:50:35 | fowl | its because we're all so hawt |
| 23:50:36 | Araq | fowl: yeah, dunno why I didn't do that |
| 23:51:27 | gokr | So I must say Andreas ... kinda blew my mind he could wrap Urho3D that well in this short time. Sure, there will be many kinks - but still. |
| 23:51:47 | gokr | "unintentional"? |
| 23:52:01 | fowl | gokr, you have to code a bit differently in cpp mode |
| 23:52:34 | flaviu | Well, people get carried away while arguing. Their goal isn't to waste time. |
| 23:52:40 | Araq | fowl: not really? what do you mean? |
| 23:52:43 | matkuki | Is the "break" statement in this code suppose to break out of both loops: https://bpaste.net/show/111315b3eb8d ? |
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| 23:53:00 | fowl | for item in someseq: might not be a good idea anymore, in c you at least knew this was a shallow copy |
| 23:53:36 | Araq | matkuki: no! but my bet it's because of the magic 'fields' iterator |
| 23:53:49 | fowl | now it depends on what the copy constructor does |
| 23:54:20 | matkuki | Araq: So I shouldn't do it this way? |
| 23:54:30 | Araq | fowl: if you don't care about efficiency, I don't see the problem really |
| 23:54:46 | fowl | matkuki, wrap it in a block: |
| 23:54:52 | Araq | matkuki: report it, the compiler shouldn't even allow it |
| 23:54:52 | fowl | named block |
| 23:55:05 | matkuki | Will do. |
| 23:55:08 | Araq | 'break' in 'fields' is not supported |
| 23:55:12 | Araq | iirc |
| 23:56:12 | matkuki | fowl: Wrap which part in a block? |
| 23:56:26 | def- | Anyone want to look through the GSoC 2015 Organization Application?: https://github.com/Araq/Nim/wiki/GSoC-2015-Organization-Application |
| 23:56:35 | fowl | matkuki, the inner for loop, this would let you break out of it |
| 23:56:56 | matkuki | Thanks, will try it! |
| 23:57:09 | fowl | matkuki, like block foo: stmt1; stmt2; break foo |
| 23:57:23 | gokr | flaviu: I buy unintentional baiting/trolling. But flaming is simply insulting someone - hardly unintentional. |
| 23:58:31 | matkuki | fowl: Yup it works, thanks. |
