<< 13-08-2015 >>
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01:43:50nevercastNimBot has to be the most flaky bot I've met. tbh
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02:30:33Varriountnevercast: It might just be the quality of the connection.
02:30:55Varriountnevercast: I mean, I get disconnected quite often, and it's not like my IRC client is the one that crashes.
02:35:22nevercastYeah likely.
02:35:32nevercastDoes nim have a "standard" project file format?
02:36:12nevercastAlso - Where are the tools for querying compile errors and scope variables for things like "Intellisense" ?
02:36:22nevercastIs that nimtools?
02:37:09nevercastAh, nimsuggest.
02:43:06Varriountnevercast: Nimsuggest is for IDE integration.
02:43:33VarriountI'm still working to integrate it with the Sublime Text plugin, I don't know about the other IDE plugins.
02:43:35nevercastYes that's my intention.
02:45:09nevercastI would be interested in any development with Sublime
02:47:54Varriountnevercast: Well, the current plugin is pretty good.
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05:09:18VarriountAraq: Does c2nim support the token pasting operator? (##)?
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11:33:58Araqhe, actually NimBot is now async, triggered a codegen bug and keeps crashing ...
11:34:15Araqdom96 is working on a fix though
11:34:32AraqVarriount: yes ## is supported
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12:31:06Varriount_Araq: How hard would it be to get c2nim to understand typedefs with more than one identifier on the end?
12:31:25Varriount_eg: 'typedef int DWORD, *PDWORD'
12:31:41Araqit already does understand that
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12:32:06VarriountAraq: Are you sure? It understands it for structures, but not plain types.
12:32:33Araqpossible
12:32:49Varriount'typedef CLFS_WRITE_ENTRY *PCLFS_WRITE_ENTRY, **PPCLFS_WRITE_ENTRY;' gives me 'Error: ';" expected'
12:33:54VarriountAraq: Also, c2nim appears to be deleting all the includes by default.
12:34:01fowlC declaration syntax is the evilest idea ever
12:34:04Varriount(from the output files)
12:34:14Varriountfowl: I didn't come up with it.
12:34:40Araqthere is a --keepIncludes or something
12:34:55fowlI think thats how you read scandinavian
12:35:12Araqor maybe #include <foo.h> is removed and #include "foo.h" is kept, check the source
12:35:24fowlYou start in the middle read right then go left then go right, ...
12:36:38Araqfowl: strictly speaking the 'typedef' doesn't even have to start the declaration, struct foo typedef ...
12:36:40Araqit's been designed to produce the most WTFs per minute
12:37:42AraqVarriount: fix c2nim then --debug gives you the stacktrace
12:37:47VarriountAraq: It's just, almost all the header files in the windows sdk do a 'typedef parent child, *pchild' thing
12:37:58Araqyes, fix c2nim
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12:40:35Xaseroni followed an old link and wtf :D http://nimrod-code.org/
12:42:31EXetoCfowl: it's just a terrible language for libs
12:42:58Araqhi Xaseron well I also sell repairs for wash machines
12:43:14EXetoCunless, of course, you only care about C and C++
12:44:37Araq(just kidding)
12:45:31XaseronAraq: and breast enhancements :D
12:46:18Araqbreasts and washing machines belong together
12:47:29Araqfor ... some reasons ...
12:48:13EXetoCspeaking of which, I've started working on that library now
12:48:43VarriountAraq: Ever thought of commenting code? c2nim is like an untamed jungle
12:49:08VarriountI've found 'parseTrailingDefinedTypes', but have only a faint idea of where to insert it.
12:49:37Araqdunno, I don't comment "obvious" things
12:50:17EXetoCthe purpose being to generate C libs and then expose an API for generating bindings
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12:51:56VarriountAraq: Yes, but you can apparently understand code that has a complexity on par of that found in Windows headers.
12:53:32EXetoCRust allows "C" libs to be generated, but I've never heard of anything about an accompanying API
12:53:48AraqEXetoC: hey, we can generate C header files too
12:54:18AraqVarriount: 1. feel free to add docs
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12:54:32Araq2. you can always ask me about the code
12:57:42EXetoCyes, so it's just this API that's missing. A C header generator would be a good first step
12:58:50VarriountIsn't there a switch to generate a header?
12:59:03EXetoCfor testing purposes of course
12:59:13federico3a Nim equivalent of "which"?
13:01:49AraqVarriount: well I write parsers for about 14 years now. sorry I cannot be bothered to document these things anymore ;-)
13:02:48drewsremActually, Nim is the only PL language I know of where you can actually read the compiler codebase
13:03:36Araqfyi the most painful parser that I ever wrote is the reStructuredText parser, not c2nim
13:04:03AraqRST is a bitch to parse, no wonder it got killed by markdown
13:04:15drewsremIt got?
13:04:48EXetoCyou only need a few poor souls to do it, right? :p
13:04:49Araqit definitely crumbles under the weight of its spec
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13:06:34drewsremIt supports a lot of constructs IIRC tho, Markdown is very basic
13:07:06AraqMarkdown uses significant trailing whitespace
13:07:48Araqfor me that is a showstopper, so I won't use it if I can avoid it
13:07:55drewsremWhat do you use?
13:08:06AraqreStructuredText
13:08:38drewsremright
13:09:03drewsremasciidoc seems to enjoy little adoption
13:09:44EXetoCtrailing whitespace. ugh
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13:16:14federico3drewsrem: like Nim, it's a little-known gem
13:17:18drewsremfederico3, it is? I do prefer my comments to be # and not //, besides that it looks pretty good
13:18:25federico3comments are weird, everything else is as powerful as LaTeX and readable like Md
13:19:02reactormonkDunno, I'd be fine with markdown in nim *duck*
13:19:30VarriountAraq: Should I add a parseTrailingTypedef call to the otherTypeDef proc, or to the parseTypeDef proc?
13:19:32EXetoCquack
13:19:41federico3reactormonk: for docstrigs, sure. To write largish bodies of documentation and books - ouch
13:20:38AraqparseTypeDef
13:20:39reactormonkfederico3, org-mode ;-)
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13:21:42drewsremAraq, can you have a look at this feature I had some time ago real quick and tell me it's not going to happen so I can put it to rest? http://ix.io/jKi - i.e. adding some block-literals that use indentation as an alternative for triple-quoted strings like YAML has
13:22:47Araqdamn, but I like it
13:23:15drewsremAll the better :)
13:23:35Araqbut yeah, has no chance to make it into v1
13:24:05Araqalso you need to pick something else colon-bar doesn't cut it
13:24:22drewsremGood, I can go back to my programs now :)
13:24:28drewsremWas the first thing came to my mind, why not?
13:24:36Araqalso you need a mode that doesn't strip the indentation
13:25:26Araqit should use ''' (three single quotes)
13:25:28drewsremhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YAML#Block_literals
13:25:38Araqand '''! for when the indentation is to be kept
13:25:48drewsremsounds good
13:26:02Araqwe don't care about yaml :P yaml is a pita to parse
13:26:22Araqanother thing that slowly crumbles under the weight of its spec
13:26:28drewsremno sure, just for reference, I thought of :| because they use |
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13:26:43VarriountAraq: Well, it doesn't help that the YAML reference implementation is written in Haskell
13:27:13Araqwell the spec is reasonably clear and there are also C implementations
13:27:18VarriountNot that Haskell is a bad language, but it makes it difficult to port to other languages.
13:27:25Araqbut it's just so big for what it does
13:27:50drewsremPeople really seem to enjoy using it tho
13:27:55Araqand at the end is still worse than ini files for configuration
13:28:55drewsremAraq, should I open a proposal-thingy on the issue tracker for this thing or will you remember it/do it yourself?
13:29:10Araqno, do it, I want this RFC
13:29:26Araqindentation based string literals just make sense for Nim.
13:29:43drewsremgreat
13:33:07VarriountExpect backlash. It's a Different Way (TM) of doing things
13:40:14reactormonkVarriount, ™ <- to store and reuse
13:40:28Varriountreactormonk: I was typing with one hand.
13:41:01reactormonkAraq, I like the idea of identation-based strings. Any ambiguities?
13:41:01VarriountAlthough, when you think of it, the argument for indentation based strings is fairly similar to the one for indentation based control flow/blocks.
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13:41:30*Varriount thinks of indentation based lisp
13:43:11drewsremI wonder what fowl thinks of it
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13:44:00drewsremVarriount, sure, that's why you do RFCs right? - I'm biased to liking this, if someone is biased to not liking this, he has motivation to articulate concerns, which may be valid.
13:45:16coffeepothow would further indentations work in indentation based strings? https://gist.github.com/coffeepots/0caaa348c42c80d3e30f
13:46:23drewsremcoffeepot, it preserves indentation, try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YAML#Block_literals which is what I had in mind
13:46:42EXetoCdo experienced programmers also tend to dislike whitespace-sensitivity or is it mostly inexperienced ones?
13:46:49coffeepotawesome :)
13:48:28drewsremEXetoC, how could one know? - You'd have to define "experienced programmer" and then do a survey?
13:48:43EXetoCdetails :p
13:49:12drewsremEXetoC, http://gradha.github.io/articles/2015/04/whitespace-goto-fail.html
13:49:39EXetoCanecdotal evidence ftw
13:50:07drewsremQuestion really doesn't allow for more :p
13:50:55EXetoCok so it starts off with indentation in a whitespace-insensitive language
13:51:15coffeepoti tend to mind-parse code as if it was properly formatted, so reading inconsistent spacing (to the control flow) in non-whitespace languages gives me hives anyway.
13:51:26EXetoCbut omitting {} is pretty terrible regardless
13:52:53EXetoCmost code is indented after all
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13:53:57drewsremEXetoC, but that's basically his point, right, if you don't omit them then you acknowledge that people already put meaning to indentation
13:54:20EXetoCyep
13:54:46Araqit's even worse
13:55:09Araqit's redundancy gone wrong
13:55:23Araqif indentation and braces disagree whom do you trust?
13:58:06drewsremI actually don't know a good argument why not go with indentation aside from "copy pasting it into a textbox can screw up the indentation"
13:58:23drewsremNot that that's a good argument.
13:58:56EXetoCwhich text boxes strip whitespace?
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13:59:40coffeepotafaict the only reasoning against whitespace languages is copying code from webpages (or as you say drewsrem textboxes), but I've never had a problem with it either
13:59:42drewsremEXetoC, well, idk, but I guess PHP parsers and things might be liberal with whitespaces
14:00:50drewsremcoffeepot, I did once or twice, but it's a bit of a stupid claim, I mean you're ignoring any kind of benefits you get just because you might run into a scenario where your texts whitespace gets violated, sure if that's all that counts, then go with it
14:00:57EXetoCcoffeepot: that's annoying, and it seems arbitrary
14:01:36drewsremmaybe if you mix tabs and spaces, the language allows that and then when you post it the tabs get converted etc.
14:01:40EXetoCif text needs to be modified, use a text editor
14:02:13coffeepotyep, I think that's the only way it could be an issue, if you mix tabs and spaces. Aporia colours tabs in red though so struggling to find the downside!
14:02:28drewsremIIRC nim doesn't allow tabs at all
14:05:24EXetoCelastic tabstops seem nice, but at least you can render things according to personal preference
14:06:03drewsremAraq, btw. what keyboard layout do you use? - german?
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14:27:54EXetoChave there been any AST changes recently?
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16:25:23EXetoCthreads with new posts don't appear at the top?
16:29:25EXetoCor it's just that my post never appeared
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18:30:03Araqdrewsrem: yes
18:30:09AraqEXetoC: no ast changes that I know of
18:30:45Araqso ... I implemented newIterator() and it doesn't make sense
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18:32:43Araqproc factory(a, b: int): iterator (): int =
18:32:45Araq iterator foo(): int {.closure.} =...
18:32:46reactormonkUsually code doesn't make sense 6 months later
18:32:46Araq return foo
18:32:56Araqso that requires 'newIterator(foo)' ?
18:33:04Araqand this doesn't:
18:33:15Araqproc factory2(a, b: int): iterator (): int =
18:33:16Araq return iterator (): int = ...
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18:36:08Araqso ... I dunno yet
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18:54:05EXetoCmy macro generates "illformed AST" since the compiler upgrade (was a few weeks old before that). I'll look into it
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18:59:50Araqah yeah, sweet regressions
19:00:02Araqbut it's likely caused by something entirely different
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19:04:14EXetoCok
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19:06:41EXetoCjust.. don't introduce regressions :p
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19:11:55AraqEXetoC: gimme a test case
19:19:21EXetoCI was going to
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19:20:12EXetoCI'll check the macros module history
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19:28:30EXetoCAraq: https://gist.github.com/exetoc/389da3a0f303e0b65443
19:29:00EXetoCeither an empty node wasn't added to FormalParams in the call to newNimNode before or it simply accepted it
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19:30:41EXetoCso I just need to remove the statement that append Empty
19:30:55EXetoCappends*
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19:32:57EXetoCthere we go
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19:38:14EXetoCWhat I meant to say that was that it might have simply accepted two or more successive Empty nodes at the beginning FormalParam's child list
19:38:54EXetoCeither that or the first thing I said
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20:35:59yglukhovDoes anyone know rust here? %)
20:36:23EXetoCprobably. why?
20:36:36yglukhovI'm writing an article on nim and need some clarifications.
20:37:05yglukhovDoes rust have compile-time function execution as powerfull as nim does?
20:37:42Araqno, but Rust has a plugin system to cover pretty much everything that Nim covers afaict
20:39:18yglukhovBut those plugins have to be explicitly managed, right? I mean, a third-party library that requires a specific plugin, requires it's user to take actions accordingly. Configure the build system, etc. right?
20:39:49AraqI dunno but the plugin system is not in Rust v 1.0 iirc
20:40:01Araqso it's still unstable and in flux
20:40:08yglukhovah, ok.
20:40:31yglukhovwhat about the macro system. can a macro call a function that is also available in runtime?
20:41:24EXetoCexplicitly managed? how is it different for nim?
20:42:14Araqthe macro system used to be stupid but I don't know the current state of affairs
20:43:08Araqsince the Rust guys know Nim pretty well you can sure the differences are philosophical in nature
20:43:14Araq*can be sure
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20:46:00yglukhovEXetoC: E.g. in Nim I can deploy a library that provides nim<->java bridge, so that you may simply write "jnimport java.io.PrintStream". That lib will find the corresponding java class in installed java environment and insert the glueing code in compile time. And it's users don't need anything else, but just import it in their code. Is rust that crazy as well?
20:46:32AraqI don't think Rust supports this as easily as Nim does it
20:48:32Araqbut the major difference is that a plugin system cannot patch over an otherwise extremely picky language
20:49:00yglukhoverrr.. could you rephrase that please? =)
20:49:39Araqisn't that your job?
20:50:07yglukhovno, i'm a developer ;)
20:50:22Araq" I'm writing an article on nim and need some clarifications."
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20:53:35yglukhovwell, actually i was not going to compare nim to rust. i just want to be sure, that i write smth like "nim is ultimate in this and that and noone else is", so that noone can argue =)
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20:55:00Araq"noone else can do it" is always a shaky ground
20:55:17AraqI can say these things cause I know everything
20:55:35Araqbut in general you need to be very careful with these kind of statements
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20:56:22yglukhovok, i'm not going to say that explicitly, but you get the point
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20:57:48gokrI presume a lot of the magic (as always) is in the combination of characteristics.
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20:59:19gokrFor example, meta programming in Nim is not impressive compared to a full reflective language like Smalltalk BUT... Smalltalk is typically not statically typed, not compiled to small binaries etc. So in that niche of languages, its probably fairly unique.
21:10:56dom96yglukhov: might get better answers in #rust (On Mozilla's IRC network) :)
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21:12:43EXetoCjust don't upset you-know-who
21:22:01dom96The Doctor?
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21:31:34NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel a291f2c Zach Aysan [+0 ±1 -0]: Create Ruby-like chomp proc to allow for easy string ending removal
21:31:34NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel d288624 Zach Aysan [+0 ±1 -0]: Add tests for chomp
21:31:34NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 94149f7 Zach Aysan [+0 ±1 -0]: Update tests to proposed changes
21:31:34NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 99b29b3 Zach Aysan [+0 ±1 -0]: Switch to removeSuffix name and modify the string in place
21:31:34NimBot3 more commits.
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21:37:31dom96Araq: We got access to BountySource's Salt
21:37:36dom96Now it's just a case of setting it up
21:38:38AraqI don't even know what this means
21:38:40dom96Araq: Take a look at Crystal's (https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/crystal-lang) for inspiration, and let me know what you think the description + goals + rewards should be.
21:38:51dom96^^ that should give you a good idea
21:39:02dom96we don't have to set it up now
21:39:06dom96in fact, i'm too tired to
21:39:17Araqcan't we copy Rust instead of Crystal?
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21:42:45Araqthings used to be so easy. the standard answer was "copy Rust's tutorial/docs/website/stdlib and Go's gofmt tool"
21:43:01dom96Rust doesn't do crowdfunding
21:43:21Araqnow it's "copy Rust's tutorial/docs/website/stdlib and Go's gofmt tool and Cystal's crowdfunding"
21:43:50dom96no, it's not "copy" it's "get inspired"
21:43:58dom96If you don't want to do it then that's fine.
21:44:08Araqnah, I'm just messing with you
21:44:55dom96even getting money to put bounties on issues is good
21:45:06dom96so let's do it
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22:36:00dom96Also, I set this up: https://gratipay.com/nim/
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23:51:28NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 02f9748 Zahary Karadjov [+1 ±5 -0]: fix #1858 again; restores the support for static macro params
23:51:28NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel fe124ce Zahary Karadjov [+0 ±3 -0]: Disable the new generic params handling for immediate template and macros... 12 more lines
23:51:28NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel b3abcaf Andreas Rumpf [+1 ±5 -0]: Merge pull request #3177 from zah/generic-types-in-macros... 2 more lines
23:52:20NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel c42b05a Yuriy Glukhov [+0 ±5 -0]: Fixed --debugger:on option. Removed c_line from termios.
23:52:20NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 40f7646 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±5 -0]: Merge pull request #3204 from yglukhov/debugger-on-fix... 2 more lines
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