| 00:00:47 | Araq | no the news section is cut off |
| 00:01:28 | flaviu | Araq: It's two screenshots stitched together from what I can tell. |
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| 00:02:03 | Araq | well I know an Opera user and he is used to the fact that many websites don't work for him, so it's fine anyway. |
| 00:02:16 | Araq | Opera users are used to broken websites. |
| 00:02:52 | * | flaviu can't stop laughing. |
| 00:05:20 | Araq | but damn you. now I need to install FreeDOS and try it there |
| 00:05:34 | Araq | is there a browser for freeDOS? |
| 00:06:29 | Araq | yup. ARACHNE. |
| 00:07:05 | flaviu | I'm installing it, lets see what happens |
| 00:07:42 | Araq | hrm ... FreeDOS 1.1 Base CD. What does that mean CD? |
| 00:07:55 | Araq | where is the floppy version?! |
| 00:08:05 | Araq | epic failure. |
| 00:08:12 | flaviu | Try writing the CD image to a floppy. |
| 00:09:26 | Araq | well that would require 40 floppies. |
| 00:10:09 | flaviu | It's amazing how slow repainting is. |
| 00:10:15 | Araq | Sam&Max had 14 iirc. Is this OS better than Sam&Max? |
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| 00:23:26 | Araq | damn I'm stupid |
| 00:23:37 | Araq | on the same page: |
| 00:23:47 | Araq | "FreeDOS bootable floppy image" |
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| 00:32:38 | Araq | flaviu: well? does it work? |
| 00:32:55 | flaviu | Araq: I can't figure out how to get internet in dosbox :/ |
| 00:33:06 | flaviu | The browser installed, I just can't view anything useful |
| 00:33:30 | flaviu | retro: http://i.imgur.com/uxvIXYI.png |
| 00:34:17 | Araq | maybe you have insufficient EMS memory? |
| 00:34:55 | flaviu | No, the problem is that I can't figure out how to get dosbox to emulate a modem |
| 00:43:35 | flaviu | Araq: It doesn't work too well: http://i.imgur.com/ZbyiWUL.png |
| 00:43:57 | flaviu | It's just barely better than lynx and w3m. |
| 00:44:31 | Araq | I think it's definitely good enough |
| 00:44:51 | Araq | in fact, I'm impressed how good it *works* (not *looks* though) |
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| 00:46:02 | Araq | so our footer should get something like "Optimized for Arachne 1.97 on FreeDOS" |
| 00:46:29 | flaviu | I'm not sure what dosbox runs |
| 00:48:05 | Araq | oh so you didn't run it on FreeDOS? |
| 00:48:37 | Araq | well we can always ask Mat4 to test it on FreeDOS. |
| 00:59:00 | jux | Idea: make `cast` an infix operator. Good/Bad idea? I think it looks much cleaner |
| 00:59:06 | flaviu | Is there some way to increase the number of cores in the threadpool? |
| 00:59:34 | flaviu | jux: Learn to love the uglyness. That's what I did ;) |
| 01:00:01 | flaviu | s/cores/threads/ |
| 01:02:20 | Araq | flaviu: yes. |
| 01:02:32 | Araq | jux: well it was *designed* to look ugly |
| 01:02:58 | Araq | and it's easy enough to wrap it in a template when you think that's a good idea |
| 01:03:06 | fowl | jux, template `as`* (some; tgt): expr = cast[tgt](some) |
| 01:03:51 | jux | It's ugly because it's unsafe? |
| 01:05:43 | Araq | yes |
| 01:05:57 | jux | rust which is all about safety, uses infix `as` |
| 01:06:20 | Araq | er rust also requires an 'unsafe' block ... |
| 01:06:40 | Araq | also I'm not sure you know type conversions look like T(x) in Nim |
| 01:07:03 | Araq | and 'cast' is really "interpret this bit pattern differently" |
| 01:08:12 | jux | you can do int32(x)? Might have mist that |
| 01:08:17 | jux | *missed |
| 01:08:22 | Araq | yup |
| 01:08:58 | flaviu | jux: Also keep in mind that Nim has UFCS, so x.int32 is equally valid. |
| 01:09:58 | Araq | btw Rust is not *all about safety*, it's only about memory safety really. |
| 01:10:02 | jux | I must of missed that in the tutorial, or it did'nt have it |
| 01:23:38 | Araq | where is 'cast' mentioned? |
| 01:28:22 | jux | Grepping `cast` in the nim manual leads me to http://nimrod-lang.org/manual.html#type-casts must have picked up the habit from there |
| 01:29:02 | Araq | and now see what's right above that |
| 01:29:58 | jux | Yeah, it's obvious in hindsight |
| 01:35:49 | jux | Maybe add a Type Conversion section int tut1 after the integer and float sections? |
| 01:36:10 | Araq | make a PR please |
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| 04:13:49 | vbtt | hello friends |
| 04:14:25 | vbtt | the new site is kickass |
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| 04:42:53 | reactormonk | pretty much |
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| 04:49:30 | vbtt | I'm excited about 1.0 |
| 04:49:42 | vbtt | finally, long awaited. |
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| 10:43:25 | Varriount_ | Araq: I've updated the buildbot with the test uploading code. I'm testing it (again) |
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| 10:56:08 | Araq | Varriount_: nice. |
| 10:56:30 | Araq | maybe we can release 10.2 this weekend? |
| 10:56:42 | Araq | ready for release building? |
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| 11:10:10 | Araq | see you later |
| 11:15:21 | Varriount_ | Araq: Well, I'm free to help |
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| 11:21:48 | gour | Varriount_: just to say 'thank you' for workin on ST2/3 plugin..looking forward to use it ;) |
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| 14:47:15 | flaviu | Looks like no one has made a library to interpret html entities yet. |
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| 16:34:11 | gour | what has happened with http://nimrod-by-example.github.io/ ? |
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| 16:39:59 | enurlyx | gour: http://nim-by-example.github.io/ |
| 16:41:28 | enurlyx | oh, i see what you mean |
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| 16:47:00 | gour | enurlyx: btw, who is the author of it? |
| 16:47:43 | Araq | gour: flaviu |
| 16:48:06 | Araq | flaviu: the htmlparser in the stdlib can resolve entities |
| 16:48:06 | gour | well done!! |
| 16:49:39 | gour | but nim-by-example is buggy - see e.g. http://nim-by-example.github.io/hello_world (ff34) |
| 16:49:58 | flaviu | Araq: Thanks. |
| 16:50:17 | flaviu | gour: I think that got messed up during the rename, I'll investigate it. |
| 16:50:41 | gour | nice wor, otherwise, flaviu |
| 16:50:44 | gour | *work |
| 16:52:56 | Araq | how can I apply CSS rules to 2 different IDs? |
| 16:53:13 | Araq | I want them to affect both #slide2 and #slide1 ... |
| 16:55:31 | flaviu | #slide1, #slide2 |
| 16:55:42 | flaviu | But the better solution is to make a new class, .slide |
| 16:56:11 | Araq | I already have an "active" class |
| 16:56:18 | Araq | can I make 2 classes? |
| 16:56:33 | gour | yes |
| 16:57:03 | Araq | interesting |
| 16:57:54 | flaviu | Haha, I see the problem. The ubuntu pygmentize packages are from 2008! |
| 16:58:50 | Araq | of course they are. ubu doesn't use rolling releases |
| 17:00:04 | flaviu | Well, in the 10 since 2008, I sort of expected it to be updated. |
| 17:00:09 | flaviu | *10 releases |
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| 17:11:53 | flaviu | Araq: "back when slide1 was the quote". Just delete the whole thing, the entire reason version control exists is so that you don't need to comment out dead code. |
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| 19:18:46 | dts|pokeball | does aporia not build correctly with nim devel? |
| 19:39:30 | Araq | flaviu: I don't care. can never remember the git command to look at a file's history |
| 19:39:37 | Araq | git log -n ? |
| 19:39:43 | flaviu | just git log myfile |
| 19:39:53 | Araq | that shows the commits |
| 19:39:57 | Araq | not the diffs |
| 19:40:52 | Araq | anyway, your slide1, slide2 stuff doesn't work |
| 19:41:01 | Araq | now slide1 renders wrongly |
| 19:41:06 | Araq | and I don't know why |
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| 19:42:18 | Araq | I swear this is the last time in my life. I'll never touch css again. |
| 19:43:30 | flaviu | Araq: Most CSS is much nicer. |
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| 19:44:06 | Araq | *shrug* this whole system is inherently non-composable and hostile to tooling. |
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| 19:44:44 | Araq | it only "works" when your definition of "works" completely ignores "time to get it to work" |
| 19:45:01 | shodan45 | hah... try css, js, html, php, & mysql.... the horrible life of a LAMP dev |
| 19:45:17 | elvispresley- | PHP implies no quality at all |
| 19:45:26 | flaviu | Araq: I've just been working on some CSS myself. I only got hung up once, and that was completely my fault. |
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| 19:45:55 | flaviu | Araq: BTW, the command for me when I want to see a log with diffs is `glp` |
| 19:46:06 | flaviu | aliases are quite nice. |
| 19:46:19 | shodan45 | elvispresley-: quality? who needs quality? >_> |
| 19:46:40 | elvispresley- | people who value their health |
| 19:46:42 | Araq | yeah and then you work on your collegue's computer and are lost |
| 19:47:35 | flaviu | Araq: use google and avoid working on a someone else's computer |
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| 19:49:27 | gour | Araq: have you ever tried Fossil (http://fossil-scm.org/index.html/doc/tip/www/index.wiki) ? |
| 19:49:29 | Araq | *shrug* "it's not broken when you can patch over it" is a poor argument |
| 19:50:03 | flaviu | I never said it was broken, just that I can't be bothered to memorize stuff. |
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| 19:51:00 | Araq | so you agree it's non obvious |
| 19:51:14 | Araq | as you can't be "bothered" to remember it |
| 19:51:34 | gour | that's why i like fossil, it's much more intuitive and simpler |
| 19:52:02 | gour | can never remember e.g .git's syntax with remote branches :/ |
| 19:52:09 | Araq | gour: well I use git because our project is on github. how does fossil help me for that? |
| 19:52:37 | flaviu | Araq: It's non-obvious for a newcomer. But right below `COMMON DIFF OPTIONS` in the man page is `-p, -u, --patch`. It's now completely obvious for me what the command is. |
| 19:53:10 | Araq | shouldn't it be under "log options"? |
| 19:53:58 | flaviu | Araq: Good point, that is non-obvious. |
| 19:53:59 | flaviu | gour: You need a better shell, have you tried zsh with someone else's config? |
| 19:54:45 | Araq | "git history myfile.nim --contents" # here. that would be reasonable. took me 1 second to design it. |
| 19:55:49 | flaviu | Araq: I'm sure others would appreciate it if you packaged a few of those functions up as a series of aliases. |
| 19:56:32 | EXetoC | there are completion files for bash and zsh |
| 19:57:53 | Araq | flaviu: I solved my problem by copying the CSS for slide2 |
| 20:01:34 | flaviu | that's not a good idea, but the CSS is already a horrible mess. |
| 20:01:42 | Araq | now ... does anybody have a tiny show-off example for DSLs? |
| 20:02:11 | Araq | flaviu: it's only bad if you intend to maintain it. but I don't. I will never touch it again. ;-) |
| 20:04:01 | gour | Araq: well, fossil is github-in-the-box :-) |
| 20:04:09 | repax | How does one use destructors? I try the following: proc destroy(ag: var MyType) {.override.} = |
| 20:04:17 | repax | but get this error: Error: use the {.experimental.} pragma to enable destructors |
| 20:04:19 | gour | flaviu: for same/similar reason i use fish shell |
| 20:04:31 | repax | experimental is not recognized |
| 20:04:46 | Araq | repax: the experimental is a toplevel pragma |
| 20:04:48 | flaviu | gour: I used to use that, it's quite nice. |
| 20:04:56 | gour | Araq: drh's point is that one has to save brain cpu cycles for the project and not for the tool(s) |
| 20:04:59 | Araq | {.experimental.} # at the top of your module |
| 20:05:19 | Araq | gour: yup. exactly. |
| 20:05:32 | repax | Thanks, that worked :) |
| 20:07:00 | gour | Araq: ..that's why he wrote it |
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| 20:23:22 | nimnoob | Hi all. I am getting a SIGSEGV exception. Is there any way to determine why that would happen? |
| 20:24:09 | Araq | do you crash the compiler or does your program crash? |
| 20:25:06 | nimnoob | the program is crashing |
| 20:25:20 | nimnoob | i am calling glTexImage2D |
| 20:25:25 | Araq | oh |
| 20:25:33 | nimnoob | it works for a 256x256 bmp but fails for larger sizes |
| 20:25:54 | Araq | called 'loadExtensions'? |
| 20:25:58 | nimnoob | yep |
| 20:26:07 | nimnoob | i am using the sample from the website as my base |
| 20:26:24 | Araq | well maybe your hardware doesn't support larger textures? |
| 20:26:56 | EXetoC | I think it has to be a very old card then |
| 20:27:03 | EXetoC | oh |
| 20:27:20 | nimnoob | this is an ubuntu vmware fusion vm running on a macbook pro |
| 20:28:00 | nimnoob | i can check what is allocated |
| 20:28:46 | flaviu | nimnoob: That sounds like it's likely to not have enough vram |
| 20:30:02 | nimnoob | 768mb shared graphics memory |
| 20:31:10 | EXetoC | and I think it should fail silently then |
| 20:31:14 | Matthias247 | might be due to the vmware graphics driver? Might not support opengl vvery good |
| 20:34:50 | nimnoob | SIGSEGV: Illegal storage access. (Attempt to read from nil?) |
| 20:36:06 | flaviu | nimnoob: Try gdb maybe? |
| 20:36:34 | nimnoob | will do. that's where the noob part comes in :) |
| 20:36:49 | flaviu | make sure to use `--embedsrc --debuginfo --lineDir:on` |
| 20:38:28 | nimnoob | i am going to try to allocate more vram first just as a test |
| 20:38:38 | nimnoob | i shall return. thanks for the ideas |
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| 21:01:19 | flaviu | (this is ubuntu 12.04) `/home/ubuntu/nim/lib/system/atomics.nim: In function ‘atomicinc_13401’: /home/ubuntu/nim/lib/system/atomics.nim:177:41: error: ‘__ATOMIC_RELAXED’ undeclared (first use in this function)` |
| 21:01:29 | flaviu | Has anyone else had problems with it? |
| 21:05:43 | Araq | flaviu: well atomics.nim changed but it's been a while |
| 21:06:07 | flaviu | This is my first time using ubuntu in a couple years ;) |
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| 21:06:22 | Araq | what happened? |
| 21:06:39 | flaviu | I'm using an online VM to set up automated builds |
| 21:07:00 | * | Trustable joined #nimrod |
| 21:07:40 | flaviu | Maybe updating gcc to something of this era will fix things. |
| 21:09:47 | * | Demos joined #nimrod |
| 21:17:58 | * | lbmn joined #nimrod |
| 21:18:36 | lbmn | Posted http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/671 from http://www.reddit.com/r/nimrod as requested. |
| 21:28:04 | * | Mat4 joined #nimrod |
| 21:28:12 | Mat4 | hello |
| 21:28:22 | reactormonk | o/ |
| 21:31:05 | Araq | hi lbmn. |
| 21:31:37 | * | gour quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 21:32:50 | * | xcombelle quit (Quit: Quitte) |
| 21:33:52 | Mat4 | Araq: Just readed, you are on the route to install FreeDOS ? |
| 21:34:19 | Araq | Mat4: nah, I wasn't even able to install it and it only was a joke anyway |
| 21:34:46 | Mat4 | *g* |
| 21:35:32 | lbmn | I've been posting more Nim(rod) posts to https://www.facebook.com/copyfree.org ; is anyone manning https://www.facebook.com/nimrodcode ? |
| 21:37:34 | * | milosn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 21:37:51 | Varriount | lbmn: Probably dom96 |
| 21:39:18 | Varriount | Hrm. I wish *nix had something like powershell. I don't have to do nearly as much input-output massaging with it than I have to do with bash. |
| 21:41:27 | Araq | Varriount: we moved on. we're now bashing CSS. ;-) |
| 21:42:13 | Varriount | Araq: But I don't have any knowledge of CSS... |
| 21:43:11 | flaviu | Varriount: That's alright, you'll fit right in! |
| 21:43:58 | Trustable | Hi all |
| 21:44:37 | Trustable | On the website there is the text "Nim the only language that leverages automated proof technology.." |
| 21:44:46 | Trustable | It seems that there is missing a word. |
| 21:45:25 | Araq | Trustable: good catch. |
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| 21:46:05 | Varriount | Hm.. "Automated proof technology" -> Doesn't Haskell use proofs or something? |
| 21:46:24 | Araq | well you have to read the whole sentence |
| 21:46:51 | flaviu | Varriount: Types are proofs of type correctness. So every language has automated proof technology technically. |
| 21:49:51 | Araq | well yes and no |
| 21:50:17 | Varriount | What does haskell do regarding threading? |
| 21:50:40 | * | milosn joined #nimrod |
| 21:50:46 | * | cir0x quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 21:50:50 | flaviu | Araq: Dynamically typed languages still do type checking, but it just so happens they only have a single type. |
| 21:50:59 | * | lbmn quit (Quit: Leaving) |
| 21:51:15 | * | Araq sighs |
| 21:51:25 | Araq | again: do not lecture me. |
| 21:51:43 | Varriount | So.. What is better, using methods, or using a dispatch table? |
| 21:52:30 | Araq | flaviu: usually "proof technology" means more than just type checking, but strictly speaking you are correct |
| 21:52:49 | Araq | however strictly speaking CPython is also compiled, albeit to a bytecode. |
| 21:53:14 | Araq | that doesn't mean the distinction between "interpreted" and "compiled" is useless. |
| 21:54:08 | reactormonk | Araq, I'd say you require one commit per discussion about programming languages |
| 21:55:30 | flaviu | reactormonk: That might not be as effective as you're hoping. I can have 45 discussions about programming languages. |
| 21:55:41 | reactormonk | flaviu, fuck. |
| 21:56:33 | Varriount | Anyone here know why Java programs tend to use huge amounts of memory? |
| 21:57:16 | Varriount | I mean, a simple GUI program I wrote for my CS class took up more running memory than Sublime Text did with 10 opened files. |
| 21:57:29 | reactormonk | Varriount, probably starting cost? |
| 21:57:50 | Varriount | Starting cost? |
| 21:57:50 | * | flaviu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 21:57:50 | reactormonk | The stuff I'm working with tends to drain memory anyway (models), then add the JVM on top of it. |
| 21:58:50 | * | flaviu joined #nimrod |
| 21:58:55 | Demos | Varriount, there are good memory profilers for java are there not? |
| 21:59:08 | Varriount | Demos: I don't know, are there? |
| 21:59:13 | Demos | I think so |
| 21:59:36 | reactormonk | Varriount, there's a few, and they're not too hard to use |
| 21:59:46 | flaviu | Varriount: The JVM is incredibly complex, so it takes lots of memory. It also uses a copying collector, so that requires quite a bit of overhead to avoid constantly GC'ing |
| 22:00:16 | flaviu | Then each object is a minimum of 24 bytes or so, and everything needs to be on the heap |
| 22:00:43 | flaviu | Varriount: Check out virtualvm. IIRC it comes bundled with Java |
| 22:00:55 | Araq | and then the programmers are trained that "memory is cheap and GC free" |
| 22:01:25 | reactormonk | Araq, not when you start messing with my dimensions - but then again, dev time isn't too cheap either |
| 22:02:03 | Mat4 | Varriount: 1. large Environment caused by the object model + memory collection, 2. JIT compilation with larger memory requirements |
| 22:02:04 | flaviu | Araq: And GC is very cheap. The problem is that no gc is always cheaper than GC. |
| 22:03:12 | reactormonk | flaviu, except if you have memory leaks |
| 22:03:26 | Araq | flaviu: only the shortlived objects are cheap really |
| 22:03:42 | flaviu | A related conversation about the cost of GC: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2l5fko/vs_optimization_analysis_in_java/clsaoox |
| 22:03:42 | flaviu | reactormonk: Stack allocation doesn't cause memory leaks |
| 22:04:27 | Varriount | Hm. But, (and perhaps my observations here are flawed), C# programs don't seem to take nearly as much memory as Java programs do. |
| 22:04:47 | flaviu | Varriount: Different runtime, and they have value objects |
| 22:05:43 | flaviu | ArrayList[Long] will cost you at least 40*size bytes. C#'s version will cost you at least 8*size bytes. |
| 22:06:51 | Varriount | Araq: Hm, "memory is cheap and GC is free" reminds me of the time a fellow programmer failed to see why creating and discarding an object hundreds of times a second was a bad idea on an embedded system (using java) |
| 22:07:16 | Demos | I think languages like java and C# are good for concurrent situations where you your workload has lots of IO. |
| 22:07:31 | Demos | if you care about CPU time or it is your bottleneck then java and C# are not that great |
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| 22:07:50 | flaviu | Varriount: Embedded Java is different from real Java, IIRC there are ways of saying "allocate this here" |
| 22:08:32 | Varriount | flaviu: Not the way we were using java |
| 22:08:49 | flaviu | ok |
| 22:10:41 | Mat4 | Demos: I do not agree with your argument because for 'concurrent' situations memory usage can matter like in any other execution model - what application have you in mind ? |
| 22:11:15 | Demos | stuff that runs on servers |
| 22:11:38 | Stefan_Salewski | In some existing wrappers we have entries like "TBindingSignal*{.final, pure.} = object" |
| 22:11:44 | Demos | and I guess GUI apps, but almost anything is fine for GUI apps so long as it has like lambdas |
| 22:12:05 | Stefan_Salewski | But from the compiler manual: Objects that have no ancestor are implicitly final and thus have no hidden type field. |
| 22:12:24 | dom96 | Araq: What about using Jester for a DSL example? |
| 22:12:35 | Stefan_Salewski | So my guess is that pure and final pragma are obsolete here? |
| 22:13:33 | Araq | dom96: hell ya |
| 22:13:40 | Araq | didn't think of this lol |
| 22:13:47 | Araq | so gimme an example! |
| 22:14:02 | Araq | Stefan_Salewski: exactly. |
| 22:14:18 | Stefan_Salewski | OK, thanks. |
| 22:14:34 | dom96 | Araq: I told you to do that yesterday... |
| 22:15:01 | Araq | well your chances are higher I listen to you when I'm sobber |
| 22:15:12 | dom96 | Araq: Look at the readme (on the new-async branch). |
| 22:15:59 | Mat4 | Demos: makes now sense, thanks |
| 22:16:03 | dom96 | https://github.com/dom96/jester/tree/new-async#jester |
| 22:16:10 | Araq | Demos: http://forum.nim-lang.org/t/672 |
| 22:16:44 | Demos | like a lot of the languages people like to write servers for webapps in don't support any kind of threaded execution AT ALL (node, Python, probably ruby) so java is nice for that |
| 22:17:05 | Demos | nobody uses c# for webapps just because it does not run on linux (well it does as of like a few weeks ago but still) |
| 22:17:10 | * | Stefan_Salewski quit () |
| 22:17:24 | Araq | Demos: you're quite wrong. lots of people do use c# for exactly that. |
| 22:17:38 | Araq | StackOverflow is the most prominent example |
| 22:17:39 | dom96 | Araq: Would be nice to include the code and what output it gives when you first compile and launch it |
| 22:17:40 | Demos | I know about asp.net |
| 22:18:11 | Araq | asp.net is deprecated I think |
| 22:18:20 | Demos | really? |
| 22:18:28 | Demos | I thought asp.net was just like c# for webapps |
| 22:18:32 | Araq | MVC is the new stuff, but maybe there is something newer already |
| 22:18:33 | Demos | or visual basic or C++/CLR I guess |
| 22:18:59 | ldlework | Its ASP.NET MVC |
| 22:19:05 | ldlework | asp isn't dead :) |
| 22:19:08 | dom96 | Araq: like I do in the readme |
| 22:19:53 | Araq | ldlework: whatever. it's horrible either way. |
| 22:20:45 | * | Mat4 can not follow the speed Microsoft introduces new execution environments withdrawing prior established ones |
| 22:21:55 | ldlework | Araq: is it? |
| 22:22:21 | Araq | ldlework: IMO yes. |
| 22:22:59 | ldlework | It seems the older I get the more I come to appreciate MS's fullstack support of everything |
| 22:23:56 | Araq | It seems I need to re-invent the browser instead of the OS. |
| 22:24:22 | ldlework | and the less I care about api's and file formats and finicky computer science crap |
| 22:24:58 | Varriount | ldlework: What do you mean by fullstack support? |
| 22:25:35 | elvispresley- | why would you bother with asp.net though |
| 22:25:45 | elvispresley- | you've got to pay for all that MS junk to even run it |
| 22:25:48 | ldlework | Varriount: when MS makes something, they throw a thousand engineers at it so literally everything in every crack has been touched from the installer to the 5-level deep options menus and such |
| 22:25:56 | ldlework | elvispresley-: I'm not saying I would *use* it |
| 22:26:27 | ldlework | I'm saying I appreciate that there is an entity that goes through the motions of taking care of top - to - bottom, even though its business and profit motivation and sometimes it sucks etc |
| 22:27:57 | ldlework | If you've ever used any other enterprise's software you probably know what I mean, Novell, VMWare, RedHat, etc |
| 22:28:02 | Mat4 | Idlework: Are you sure writing about Microsoft ? |
| 22:28:05 | Varriount | As an aside, I find it funny that the VM GUI I use at work is written in J# (VMWare VSphere) |
| 22:28:29 | ldlework | Mat4: I can dig on Microsoft only if we do it realistically |
| 22:28:33 | ldlework | what I'm saying is true |
| 22:28:48 | ldlework | there is plenty of legitimate things to dig on microsoft without denying the reality |
| 22:29:30 | ldlework | They really are the only company that produces software like visual studio |
| 22:30:22 | flaviu | ldlework: Jetbrains |
| 22:30:24 | shodan45 | developers! developers! developers! DEVELOPERS!!! ;) |
| 22:30:29 | ldlework | flaviu: I use jetbrains |
| 22:30:37 | shodan45 | yeah, jetbrains++ |
| 22:30:43 | ldlework | it is not anywhere *close* to the slickness of visual studio |
| 22:31:02 | flaviu | shodan45: They make resharper, but they are looking to get into making DSL tooling |
| 22:31:04 | Demos | Visual studio for C# is pretty amazing |
| 22:31:04 | ldlework | it also has bugs, and performance problems, |
| 22:31:16 | repax | visual studio *almost* supports C++14 and C11 |
| 22:31:21 | Varriount | Hm, how much working memory does Visual Studio use when cold-started? |
| 22:31:43 | ldlework | Varriount: I have no idea but I do know it never notice its startup working memory |
| 22:32:14 | ldlework | Anyway, I love jetbrains and glad they are around :) |
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| 22:32:59 | Varriount | I ask, because I'm curious how much memory it uses compares to IntelliJ |
| 22:33:09 | ldlework | Varriount: I have no idea |
| 22:33:16 | * | dom96 quit (Changing host) |
| 22:33:16 | * | dom96 joined #nimrod |
| 22:33:17 | Demos | prolly more |
| 22:33:50 | Varriount | IntelliJ uses ~320 megabytes for an empty project. |
| 22:33:56 | shodan45 | VS is a non-starter for me, simply because it only runs on windows |
| 22:34:19 | Matthias247 | Varriount: 112 MB. With a 100kLoc C# project open |
| 22:34:28 | Araq | Delphi 6 is still unsurpassed by a wide margin |
| 22:34:29 | flaviu | Yep, a real shame that it only works on windows. |
| 22:34:44 | Araq | flaviu: tried to run with Wine? |
| 22:34:52 | ldlework | shodan45: same |
| 22:34:54 | Varriount | Araq: Delphi 6.. the language? |
| 22:34:55 | flaviu | Araq: I don't want to deal with that. |
| 22:35:10 | repax | computers come with gigs of ram today, who cares about a few hundred megs (assuming they are put to good use)? |
| 22:35:11 | shodan45 | heck, even if it ran on linux, I still wouldn't use it because it's not open source |
| 22:35:17 | ldlework | repax: agreed |
| 22:35:30 | Araq | Varriount: Delphi was an IDE + a language. the language being a heavily improved Pascal. |
| 22:35:43 | Varriount | repax: Hm.. Man's eternal desire for efficiency? |
| 22:35:53 | Varriount | And/or perfection |
| 22:36:04 | dom96 | So. Are we redirecting #nimrod to #nim then? |
| 22:36:19 | ldlework | dom96: Its like a red herring |
| 22:36:23 | ldlework | its never actually going to happen |
| 22:36:25 | Demos | VS does not fit in my Core Memory so I can't use it. I dun know what kinda computers you use though... |
| 22:36:34 | Araq | dom96: do it. |
| 22:36:36 | ldlework | wtf is Core Memory |
| 22:36:36 | Demos | I like the channel name #nimrod |
| 22:36:48 | repax | Let's move to #nim now! |
| 22:36:50 | Matthias247 | is core memory only for .NET Core? ;) |
| 22:36:50 | Demos | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic-core_memory |
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| 22:37:19 | ldlework | ah a joke |
| 22:37:25 | Araq | Delphi ran on my Pentium 150 iirc with 16MB of RAM |
| 22:37:45 | repax | I've programmed BASIC on less memory |
| 22:37:54 | dom96 | hello nimnoob, welcome to #nimrod! |
| 22:37:57 | Varriount | http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/images/28189/IME.jpg |
| 22:38:13 | Varriount | That looks... actually quite nice. A bit complex, but what IDE isn't? |
| 22:38:19 | Araq | compilation times were not noticable and intellisense was instantaneous |
| 22:38:30 | nimnoob | thanks |
| 22:38:41 | Araq | repax: yes but not in an IDE. :P |
| 22:38:50 | repax | Right, that's were T and P prefixes are from |
| 22:39:01 | * | Mat4 thinks wasting memory and CPU usage for useless programming playgrounds is insane regardless how many resources are avariable (there always better usage for them) |
| 22:39:24 | repax | Araq, in an IDE. AMOS Basic for the Amiga for example (512kb) |
| 22:39:29 | Araq | repax: yeah even though Delphi uses T for "classes" which are reference types |
| 22:40:04 | Araq | so even that was not completely blindly copied over |
| 22:40:31 | repax | I'm glad they are gone now (almost) |
| 22:40:46 | repax | feels very neat I think :) |
| 22:40:47 | Matthias247 | Mat4: Come on, that amount is absolutely unimportand to the kind of resources wasted to things like python or ruby on thousands of web servers. Or even worse - things like bitcoin |
| 22:42:04 | flaviu | Matthias247: How else would you do proof-of-work for things like bitcoin? |
| 22:42:31 | * | yeye123 joined #nimrod |
| 22:42:45 | Araq | repax: ok, I believe you. Never programmed on an Amiga. |
| 22:43:07 | Matthias247 | flaviu: don't ask me. I don't understand the importance of bitcoin. All I understand is that it's a big waste of energy |
| 22:43:23 | Varriount | Araq: Which is better, using methods, or using dispatch tables? |
| 22:43:27 | dom96 | Guys. Can we all move to #nim now? |
| 22:43:35 | repax | Right now? YES |
| 22:43:38 | dom96 | Yes. |
| 22:43:42 | Araq | Varriount: most likely dispatch tables |
| 22:43:53 | dom96 | Just stop talking here and start talking in #nim. |
| 22:44:08 | Araq | er what? |
| 22:44:10 | Varriount | dom96: What about a redirect + kick? |
| 22:44:25 | Araq | I thought you would rename this channel? |
| 22:44:32 | Varriount | Then again, we could just wait until a netsplit. |
| 22:44:41 | dom96 | Varriount: I'm not kicking everyone because some people may not have autorejoin turned on. |
| 22:44:50 | Varriount | dom96: Good point |
| 22:44:58 | dom96 | I want to switch logging to #nim so restart conversation there please |
| 22:45:02 | flaviu | dom96: but if they cared, wouldn't they manually reconnect? |
| 22:45:15 | dom96 | flaviu: If they cared they would manually rejoin too. |
| 22:54:24 | * | NimBot joined #nim |
| 22:54:31 | dom96 | ok, done. |
| 22:54:33 | dom96 | bbl |
| 22:55:20 | vendethiel | wow. that was some kicking! |
| 22:55:54 | Araq | vendethiel: well we thought everybody is partying on a saturday's night |
| 22:56:06 | vendethiel | might make sense :) |
| 22:56:09 | Araq | so nobody will be disturbed |
| 22:56:25 | yeye123 | feierabend |
| 22:56:47 | EXetoC | but now we have computers and stuff so why party? |
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| 22:59:44 | repax | Delphi was nice. Then came Borland Builder. C++ (sorta) was nicer. |
| 23:00:15 | Araq | repax: er no? did you compare the build times? cause I did. |
| 23:00:15 | * | enurlyx joined #nim |
| 23:00:21 | ARCADIVS | Araq: since you've got my attention, are there any new developments in Nim you want to talk about? |
| 23:00:25 | repax | oh I didn't |
| 23:00:43 | Araq | ARCADIVS: check out our new website please |
| 23:00:54 | Araq | though I'm currently updating it again |
| 23:02:23 | ARCADIVS | I see the thing about "automated proof technology to perform a disjoint check for your parallel code". Any plans to add more correctness features like dependent types or something? |
| 23:03:20 | Araq | we are after flow dependent typing |
| 23:03:38 | Araq | which I consider much easier and useful |
| 23:03:57 | ARCADIVS | "flow dependent typing"? |
| 23:04:26 | Araq | yes, I think Google still doesn't know what that is |
| 23:04:26 | Varriount | ARCADIVS: Variables are automatically typed depending on control flow. (I think) |
| 23:04:52 | flaviu | http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/436 |
| 23:06:31 | flaviu | http://nimlets.github.io/ |
| 23:06:32 | flaviu | Thoughts? |
| 23:06:42 | flaviu | first and second links are totally unrelated. |
| 23:07:28 | ARCADIVS | Araq: that looks interesting but how likely is it that you would have unnecessary runtime checks with that method? |
| 23:07:46 | Araq | flaviu: I typed "echo" followed by an ENTER and nothing happened |
| 23:08:54 | Araq | ARCADIVS: essentially you get the same amount of checks |
| 23:09:55 | Araq | in general, the philosophy is "when the compiler cannot prove it, you cannot maintain it anyway and are better off with an explicit check" |
| 23:10:31 | Araq | but note that we're not there yet and you can always cast around |
| 23:11:02 | ARCADIVS | Araq: let's say a function f, only returns positive ints and a function g only takes positive ints. Will g(f(x)) just work or do I need to put an if statement around the call to f? |
| 23:11:19 | Araq | it will just work |
| 23:11:59 | flaviu | Araq: Thanks, I had some links still pointing to localhost. Should work now. |
| 23:13:01 | Varriount | Hrm... static types vs static blocks vs {.compileTime.} is quite confusing. |
| 23:13:08 | EXetoC | flaviu: no |
| 23:13:19 | EXetoC | nevermindd |
| 23:15:08 | Araq | Varriount: not really except that we should support 'static' as an alias for 'compileTime' |
| 23:17:46 | ARCADIVS | Araq: look forward to future developments. |
| 23:17:51 | ARCADIVS | *I look forward |
| 23:19:09 | Araq | ARCADIVS: thanks, but it would be better if you help so that future arrives earlier |
| 23:19:25 | Mat4 | ciao |
| 23:19:31 | * | Mat4 left #nim (#nim) |
| 23:19:36 | * | Matthias247 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:29:20 | ldlework | flaviu: needs a link to download the raw snippet |
| 23:29:30 | Araq | flaviu: looks nice but the result for my "echo" search is disappointing |
| 23:29:50 | flaviu | Araq: Well, that's the only result right now. |
| 23:30:16 | * | def- joined #nim |
| 23:31:06 | flaviu | ldlework: Well, copypaste does work, but I'll do that. |
| 23:31:31 | * | Stefan_Salewski joined #nim |
| 23:34:40 | Stefan_Salewski | I think I found a bug in my gtk wrappers? |
| 23:34:48 | Stefan_Salewski | type GValueObj* = object value_init*: proc (value: GValue) {.cdecl.} |
| 23:36:20 | Stefan_Salewski | The cdecl pragma is missing in my proc types as above -- c2nim does not generate them for type bound procedures and proc types. |
| 23:37:08 | Stefan_Salewski | But I have seen it in other wrappers, so it is necessary and I have to add it? |
| 23:37:28 | Araq | Stefan_Salewski: #callConv cdecl should add these? |
| 23:37:47 | Varriount | Stefan_Salewski: What exactly is the bug? |
| 23:38:05 | flaviu | Varriount: object value_init I think |
| 23:41:35 | Stefan_Salewski | Varriont: Bug is that there is no {.cdecl.} in type bound procedures and procedure types in all my wrappers. I have to fix it. |
| 23:41:46 | * | yeye123 quit (Quit: Leaving) |
| 23:42:52 | Stefan_Salewski | Would it be nice when c2nim adds cdecl when converting structs to Nim objects? |
| 23:44:51 | Araq | Stefan_Salewski: yes, I think it's a c2nim bug |
| 23:45:02 | Araq | report it please and relax |
| 23:45:26 | Stefan_Salewski | Ok. thanks. |
| 23:55:07 | nimnoob | does nim have the concept of a delegate, a pointer to a member function? |
| 23:55:30 | nimnoob | i would like to pass a method call and the object to call that method on |
| 23:56:33 | flaviu | nimnoob: Yes |
| 23:56:44 | flaviu | There are both closures and function pointers |
| 23:56:59 | flaviu | nimnoob: http://nim-by-example.github.io/procvars/ |
| 23:59:02 | * | enurlyx quit (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 23:59:23 | nimnoob | that helps. is it possible to pass a pointer to a dynamically dispatched method? |
| 23:59:47 | nimnoob | closures would be useful, but i am going to be creating many of them and wonder if that would hinder performance |
