<< 14-01-2016 >>
00:00:01krux02sorry I can't talk today anymore, I hope to get to you tomorrow
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02:30:34Varriount-Laptopflyx: That json module is really neat.
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04:16:24PpppppHi. Just had a quick question. Am I doing something wrong, or is the documentation here out of date?
04:16:54Pppppphttp://nim-lang.org/docs/nimc.html#nim-interactive-mode mentions that nim can be used in an interactive mode by "nim i", however when I run it, I get "Error: invalid command: 'i'"
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04:25:06reactormonkPppppp, yeah, it's deprecated.
04:26:35PpppppOh, unsupported/removed?
04:27:18Guest34835yeah
04:35:32PpppppJust curious, what's the reason? Was it buggy/unreliable? It seemed like it would've been a useful feature.
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04:49:30reactormonkPppppp, buggy, no FFI
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04:51:03PpppppOh, alright. I see. Thanks! Just wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing something wrong, since the docs still make mention of it.
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05:03:45reactormonkPppppp, time to fix the docs.
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11:43:20Araq_yglukhov: try new-ll please, want to merge it into devel
11:43:55yglukhovAraq: ok, 5 mins.
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11:51:06yglukhovAraq: seems to work smoothly.
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14:39:34cratukiNewbie. Fluent with C and python and Java.
14:39:52cratukiI'd like to do some programming that involves interaction with the filesystem and use of select.
14:40:11krux02select?
14:40:14krux02select what?
14:40:15cratukiIs this the kind of thing nim is aimed at, suitable for?
14:40:40cratukiUsing unix system call select against a list of files to see whether they'r eready to read.
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14:41:06cratukiI'm guessing it'll take me a day to prototype from knowing nothing, and I thought I'd ask around problem in IRC first.
14:42:16cratukiI've been trying in python just now, and I'm struggling because there's a bunch of magic between system calls exposed in python, and systemcalls as they're documented in Stevens.
14:43:45nsfwhat's the state of autocompletion tools for editors in nim, is it worth using?
14:44:01krux02I can't tell you anything about python, but as far as I know any language should be able to do file system interaction
14:44:35nsfcratuki: yeah, it's hard to say what do you want.. do you want to play with syscalls or do something that works with the file system?
14:44:45krux02nsf: I use aporia, and I can tell you it isn't great, but better than nothing
14:44:59nsfkrux02: hm
14:45:23krux02but at least it is easy to get started with
14:45:46nsfI tried nim autocompletion in atom briefly.. added .cfg file added a line which disables a warning and then autocompletion stopped working :\
14:46:06nsfthat's my experience
14:46:30krux02for some reason my autocomple only works, when I start aporia from the shell, propably because of some environment variables
14:46:50nsfwill take a look at aporia
14:47:28krux02don't expect too much, it's basically an editor with autocompletion and a button mapped for compilation
14:47:42krux02F5 to compile and run is pretty nice
14:47:44nsfthat's fine
14:49:19flyxcratuki: unix select is a bitch, but as calling C functions from nim is easy, nim shouldn't cause you additional trouble.
14:49:25cratukinsf: I'm looking for a general-purpose platform for doing "systems programming" that isn't C.
14:49:34krux02cratuki: I haven't tried out what you want to do in nim, but in my experience what you want to do is no problem in any language that I've worked with. So yes it will work.
14:49:52cratukiflyx: Excellent. Thanks. Yeah that's what I hoped. Because it compiles to C, I'm hoping it'll be zero-magic.
14:49:57nsfcratuki: what do you mean by "systems programming", Go devs used that term, have you tried Go?
14:50:40cratukinsf: Good question. Go is probably useful. The reason I thought I'd try nim first is that nim is good for wrapping C, and that means I can build low-latency stuff in it.
14:50:58cratukiThat would be harder in Go because you're less connected to garbage collection.
14:51:08nsfthat's true, but again, what low-latency limits are you talking about? is it 5ms or 100ms?
14:51:08cratuki(And from what I can see, wrapping C is easier in nim than go)
14:51:12krux02cratuki: go is also nice in wrapping C, I've done it several times and it is easy
14:51:14nsfboth are low latency in different contexts
14:51:22krux02but so is D
14:51:28flyxcratuki: see http://nim-lang.org/docs/posix.html#select,,ptr.TFdSet,ptr.TFdSet,ptr.TFdSet,ptr.Timeval
14:51:30krux02and almost any other language somehow
14:51:49nsfI suggested Go because I had really pleasant experience with it when it comes to event-driven stuff
14:51:53nsfthat's what you usually use select for
14:52:04krux02If you work with the unix file system a lot, maybe even perl6 might be interesting for you
14:52:12nsf:D
14:52:16nsfplease, don't use perl6
14:52:50nsfwrapping C is easier in nim than in Go that's true
14:53:11nsfbut Go has down to metal access as well, you can syscalls directly, etc.
14:53:19cratukinsf: The other thing is that I build my own async messaging systems. In go, they provide you these nice libraries. That's cool, but I'd prefer to do it my way.
14:53:26nsftechnically what Go does is possible in nim, but it's not there yet
14:53:46nsfoh, try nim then, but it's not 1.0
14:53:50cratukiAh - OK.
14:54:06cratukiI also thought nim could be useful as a means of writing fast unit tests around C code.
14:54:19nsfsure, nim has powerful macros
14:54:26Araq_hey krux02
14:54:30cratuki(as in - fast to write) Writing unit tests in C is annoying, because you have to worry about memory, which you don't care about in that context.
14:54:31krux02key
14:54:33krux02hey
14:54:56krux02Araq: nice to be be able to talk to you
14:58:03krux02cratuki: you can also just not care about memory in C. It doesn't matter that much to have memory leaks in unit test it the test isn't about testing weather you have memory leaks
14:58:47krux02cratuki: just do allocation only and let the system clean up everything when your program exits.
15:00:52krux02Araq: I wanted to ask you, what is the best way to store data in types, so that this data is then later accessible in macros.
15:01:19krux02Araq: I have the feeling that at the current state of the art it is not yet possible, and therefor I wanted to ask you
15:03:24Araq_yeah, pretty much. empty pragmas are removed
15:03:56Araq_so foo {.serialize.}: int cannot be accessed via getType, definitely something we need to provide
15:04:12*flyx seconds that
15:04:35krux02I mean something like static variables in c++ classes
15:05:24krux02and with getType, I need a way to access them
15:06:25Araq_why? static variables are just global variables pretending to belong to a type, but they don't.
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15:09:02krux02Araq_: let's say in c++ I have a some types, that all have a static variable of the same type with the same name, then I can access this static variable in a template, and I get the value depending on the type
15:10:05krux02Araq_: also in in c++ templates, static variables are there per template instance, therefore A<int>::static_int and A<float>::static_int are not the same variable
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15:10:58Araq_yeah yeah yeah, you sometimes have to write/design things differently in Nim.
15:11:58krux02you know about the nim to glsl converter
15:12:49Araq_the least thing we need is yet another brittle thing that depends on whether the compiler caches A[int] instantiations properly between module boundaries.
15:12:53krux02and I would like to store the name of the glsl type in the type itself
15:12:59flyxkrux02: do not try to showel the crazy C++ partial template specialization onto Nim
15:13:52krux02flyx: no I do not want to do that
15:14:07flyxkrux02: but you can have "proc static_int(typespec[int]): int = 2" in Nim, and then overload it with "proc static_int(typespec[int64]): int = 4"
15:14:53Araq_yup, that's how it works. not sure I like it, but it's in the language.
15:15:31krux02flyx: yes can do that, it works perfectly fine, the problem is, I can't call that function with a type that I got from a typed argument in a macro
15:16:19krux02there is no way for me to convert the the result of macros.getType to some typespec
15:17:04krux02all I need is to be able to call that static_int proc at compile time from macros
15:17:24Araq_why? what's the actual use case?
15:18:12flyxkrux02: it should be possible to have a parameter "mytype: typespec{.lit.}" in the macro, I guess
15:19:15flyxthen you can call static_int(mytype) in the macro
15:19:32flyx(I never used that, so I may be wrong)
15:20:31krux02I would like, that my texture type knows how it is represented in the shader
15:20:34flyxdo you actually need the result of the static_int call in your macro code, or would it suffice to add a call to static_int to the AST the macro produces?
15:20:54krux02my Texture2D needs a static string with "sampler2D"
15:21:15krux02Texture3D -> "sampler3D"
15:21:17krux02etc
15:22:01krux02float32 -> "float"
15:23:32krux02Vec4 -> "vec4", array[4, float] -> "float x[4]"
15:24:02krux02but type Vec4 = distinct array[4, float]
15:24:15nsfhm
15:24:17krux02flyx: yes I need the result
15:24:41nsfI wonder why `var t: Thread[var int]` compiles
15:25:05Araq_wrong approach. I don't want to use 'distinct' arrays which then later has every single feature of array
15:25:26krux02I already tried to do getAst: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/3682
15:25:46Araq_you should just map array[4, float] to the shaders Vec4.
15:26:16Araq_I told you getAst has nothing to do whatsoever with what you're trying to accomplish.
15:26:44krux02an array[4, float] has a different representation in glsl as a vec4
15:27:01krux02glsl has arrays, and an array shoul stay an array
15:27:42Araq_so map Vec4 to an object
15:28:06krux02what do you mean by mapping it to an object?
15:28:33Araq_but I don't like distinct arrays at all. 'distinct' exists to introduce additional restrictions, not to turn 'array' into a nominal type
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15:30:20nsfAraq_: why `var t: Thread[var int]` compiles, is it correct? I tried making generic objects which look similar to Thread, but they don't compile the same way
15:31:32nsfI'm asking because not only it compiles, but leads to segfaults in a slightly larger program, could be a bug or something
15:32:00nsfvar workers: seq[Thread[var Worker]]
15:32:04nsfworkers = newSeq[Thread[Worker]](countProcessors())
15:32:07nsfthis compiles
15:32:16Araq_nsf: well it shouldn't.
15:32:22nsfok, a bug then
15:36:49krux02Araq_: I haven't worked with object much yet, but how is an object better than a distinct array[4,float]?
15:37:34Araq_Thread should never have gained a T to begin with and also needs more compiler support to prevent people from doing wrong things
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18:50:23JX7Pwhat has happened to Nimrod? the #nimrod channel redirects to here
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19:01:23pigmejJX7P: Nimrod was renamed to Nim some time ago
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19:41:54grumblyDoes anyone know which version of nim I need to use to build nimsuggest? (I tried the heads of devel and master branches)
19:43:27Araq_grumbly: nim devel should work
19:44:54Araq_in fact, 'nimble install nimsuggest' works for me
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19:46:12grumblyAraq_: Maybe it's because I didn't install nim? I only made sure nim and nimble are in PATH. nimble install nimsuggest yields: nimsuggest.nim(113, 8) Error: undeclared identifier: 'isTracked'
19:47:18Araq_you can also try 'nim e compile_without_nimble.nims' from nimsuggest's directory
19:47:46Araq_that's what I usually do ... *cough*
20:00:16grumblyAraq_: Okay, what might I be missing? I get 'nim e compile_without_nimble.nims' to work only if I first add the compile/ and doc/ dirs to lib/ in the nim repo clone using ln -s, then it gets all the way to a linker error with clinenoise.o
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20:06:05dom96grumbly: that's strange, what OS are you on?
20:06:11dom96I can `nimble install nimsuggest` fine too
20:07:43grumblyI'm on OSX unfortunately.
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20:08:07dom96same
20:08:56grumblyI've noticed 'nimble install nimsuggest' pulls a clone of nim from the master branch, not devel.
20:09:39dom96which version of Nimble do you have?
20:10:43grumblydom96: nimble v0.6.0
20:11:22dom96grumbly: try upgrading to 0.7.0, just run `nimble install nimble`
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20:16:07grumblydom96: good catch! That did the trick. Thank you for your time.
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20:21:44dom96grumbly: No problem. So you were able to install nimsuggest successfully? :)
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20:51:31grumblydom96: Yup, nimsuggest installed successfully. Problem was definitely the older nimble repo.
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21:55:40ldleworkLLVM is just an intermediate representatation right? Like, there's no corresponding VM to go with it, right?
21:56:14Araq_ldlework: wrong since LLVM's IR can be JIT'ed by LLVM too
21:56:33ldleworkBut JIT'ed for the CPU right?
21:56:59Araq_what? as opposed to GPU?
21:57:08ldleworkno, bytecode for a VM
21:57:34ldleworkI guess, what I'm getting at, is if there is an LLVM VM, why not use LLVM as the bytecode target for Nim, and then do c-gen from the llvm ir.
21:57:39Araq_the IR can be serialized as well and technically qualifies as a bytecode
21:58:44ldleworkOr does the compiler only generate bytecode for the purposes of compile-time actions and the compiler does the C-gen from the Nim AST?
21:58:44Araq_LLVM is quite low level translating LLVM back to C is way more tedious than generating C code directly.
21:59:00ldleworkI thought it would be something like that.
21:59:04Araq_in fact LLVM used to have a "C target"
21:59:13ldleworkneat
21:59:21Araq_but it is not maintained anymore since C is too quirky
21:59:26ldleworksure
21:59:31Araq_and nobody cared about keeping it up to date.
21:59:33ldleworkthanks for the explanation
21:59:43ldleworkAraq_: btw, does Nim generate the c from the bytecode or the AST
22:00:08ldleworkI guess I'll be shocked if you say the Nim compiler's VM executes the AST
22:00:17Araq_from the AST, the bytecode is only used for compile-time evaluation stuff. well and for nimscript.
22:00:29ldleworkright
22:00:34ldleworkoh
22:00:38ldleworkso c-gen happens from the ast
22:00:41Araq_but it was designed for compiletime macro evaluation. nimscript came later.
22:00:46ldleworkright
22:01:31ldleworkAraq_: do any other languages do this?
22:01:45Araq_I think Ocaml comes close
22:01:47ldleworkthe compiler vm
22:02:05Araq_oh dunno. the D guys certainly are trying
22:02:19ldleworkAraq_: on the scale of virtual machines, the compiler's virtual machine is probably pretty simple right?
22:02:24ldleworks/scale/spectrum
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22:02:57Araq_no, it's actually quite advanced. it uses a register based VM
22:02:58ldleworkthat's not an insult, I'm just wagering that's the case
22:03:25ldleworkAh I was going to say "Well is it unthinkable that other languages could add this feature if they wanted to?"
22:03:46Araq_the VM was heavily inspired by Lua's VM.
22:04:03Araq_to the point were I copied their naming conventions.
22:04:09ldleworkhehe
22:04:16ldleworkwhatever lowers the cognitive load
22:04:41ldleworkIs it feasible to include the compiler's vm functionality in your own programs?
22:04:55Araq_yes and support for that is getting better and better
22:04:56ldleworkWith the ability to extend the 'built-ins' available?
22:05:00ldleworkinteresting
22:05:12Araq_nimedit uses nimscript, nimble uses nimscript ...
22:05:44ldleworkAraq_: is there any world in which a nimvm is pausable, serializable, and reconstitutable?
22:07:19ldleworkI want to send one over the network
22:07:27Araq_nimedit uses "hot code reloading"
22:07:35Araq_as a proof of concept mostly
22:07:56ldleworkI don't really want to change the state or model of the vm
22:08:03jsudlowHi Araq, ldlework.. In nim-SDL 2 when I have a KeyDown event how can I echo out the key that is being pressed? Or maybe a better quesiton is there any way to see all the methods attached to a certain object?
22:08:11ldleworkI literally want to stop it and move it to a new server and start it again
22:08:25Araq_sorry, bbs
22:08:47ldleworkjsudlow: lemme look at the sdl2 module
22:09:12jsudlowmy best guess was event.keysym.key but that returns a conversion error
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22:11:26ldleworkjsudlow: https://github.com/nim-lang/sdl2/blob/master/src/sdl2.nim#L216
22:11:43ldleworkI don't think you're going to be able to easily get a string version of what key is pressed
22:12:58jsudlowldlework: hmmm I was looking at that same thing. You cant convert a cint to a string just to check the scan code?
22:12:59ldleworkI mean you can create a Table[cint, string] for the keysyms you care about
22:13:09ldleworkoh of course you can
22:13:21ldleworkecho(keysym.sym) didn't work?
22:13:29ldleworkyou can also do something like
22:13:49ldleworkecho("The keysym is: $1" % keysym.sym)
22:14:20ldleworkjsudlow: http://nim-lang.org/docs/system.html#$,int
22:14:57ldleworkif it wont take a cint, just write a cint to int converter
22:15:20ldleworkjsudlow: http://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#converters
22:15:27ldleworkjsudlow: make sense?
22:20:51ldleworkStrange I can't fifnd nimedit on github
22:22:06ldleworkAraq_: where is nimedit?
22:23:50ldleworkinteresting NimEdit does not support hidpi?
22:24:03ldleworkI just added content-scaling support to my own SDL2 app
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23:00:35Araq_ldlework: http://nim-lang.org/nimedit/
23:00:54ldleworkyeah but where's the code
23:00:57Araq_and yeah, hidpi would be nice :-(
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23:01:12Araq_bitbucket but it's closed source
23:01:16ldleworkAraq_: its one line of code practically
23:01:22ldleworkto get SDL to scale up
23:01:29Araq_oh?
23:01:44ldleworkset the logical size to half the size of the current desktop resolution
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23:01:52ldleworkboom, everything is rendered twice as big
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23:02:51ldleworkSince you want to maintain a constant scale with varrying window size though (since its an editor) you may need to do a tiny bit of division or something
23:03:16Araq_dunno I'm not happy with SDL's font rendering at all
23:03:23ldleworkoh right its just half of the current window size
23:03:29ldleworkis the logical size
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23:03:49jsudlowsec ldlework: yea when I try echo KeySym.sym I got a type mismatch error and when I try to stringify it I get another error :)
23:04:11ldleworkAraq_: things don't look so bad, despite the smallness
23:04:26ldleworkHas someone implemented a general partitioner?
23:04:35ldleworkfor windows/panes
23:10:53Araq_latest supports multi windows
23:20:12ldleworkeh
23:20:15ldleworkthat's cool
23:21:02ldleworkAraq_: what were you using before Nimedit
23:21:07ldleworkthis looks.. ahem. a bit emacs inspired
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23:28:31Araq_I used Aporia before
23:28:45ldleworkbefore that?
23:28:57Araq_sure, I'm always eating dogfood
23:29:07ldleworkno I mean which editor before Apoiria
23:29:31Araq_gedit and SciTe
23:34:20Araq_and afaik it's Vim inspired
23:38:51ldleworkWell I hate modal editors. Is that the direction nimedit is going?
23:41:27Araq_well I dunno. the command line is not going away
23:41:36Araq_maybe later more buttons etc will be added
23:42:09ldleworkdo you mean the commandline on the right, or the one at the bottom?
23:42:27Araq_at the bottom
23:42:46ldleworkYeah emacs has that too
23:42:57ldleworkThough I don't think it is persistently drawn in either.
23:44:48Araq_since I use it all the time I don't see why it should be optional
23:46:13ldleworkProbably for smaller terminal sizes to get the extra line.
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