<< 15-01-2016 >>
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00:07:08Araq_ldlework: back to your question, it's not that hard to serialize the VM's state but keep in mind that the VM doesn't support eg. sockets
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00:07:32Araq_and if it would, it would copy the socket handles around
00:07:47Araq_and so you cannot just run it on some other machine
00:09:55ldleworkAraq_: well I would hope that I could expose functions from the parent application to the VM
00:10:20ldleworkand the VM could do whatever at all I expose to it, if even indirectly through some kind of interpreative relationship with the data coming out of the VM.
00:10:35Araq_oh yeah true
00:10:41Araq_that you can do.
00:10:44ldleworkAraq_: but if we could do that efficiently, I could start writing a small metaverse :D
00:11:07ldleworkwherein script executions are seemlessly passed over the network between simulation servers.
00:11:23ldleworkas objects owning scripts move around the segmented world
00:11:42Araq_what application do you have in mind?
00:12:41ldleworkAraq_: some kind of realtime simulation wherein, say participants can create geomertry and attach code they write while they're connected to the game with the client, to that geometry and the script will start affecting the behavior of the geomertry in realtime for all network participants
00:13:01ldleworkBut the ability to partition the simulation topologically across a networked cluster as to scale
00:13:22ldleworkrequires that scripts that exist in one runtime environment can be quicky migrated to another
00:13:36ldleworkas entities cross server simulation boundries
00:14:05Araq_sounds like you only need to exchange code though, not globals
00:14:19ldleworkyou need the running state of the scripts
00:14:20Araq_or rather that you want to separate the two
00:14:29ldleworkso basically the entire state of the vm
00:14:44ldleworkAraq_: a vm for each script too
00:14:50ldleworkso ideally its super lightweight
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00:15:12ldleworkthe more indpendent scripts doing different things, the more compelling the simulation
00:15:13Araq_do you need the stack and PC or the heap too?
00:15:23ldleworkAraq_: the one inside the VM I suppose
00:15:28ldleworkbut not the state of the parent application
00:15:38ldleworkthat is instantiating vm's and calling .step() on them
00:15:46ldleworkcontrolling how long they run for
00:15:53ldleworkand serving their native interfaces etc
00:16:24ldleworkAraq_: check out this project, https://github.com/mbrezu/Shovel
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00:21:27Araq_well ok, but that's just a stack based VM
00:22:33ldleworkI don't know a whole lot about VM implementations, I'm seeing this more from the perspective of someone who wants to run simple user scripts that are able to call into a native interface, be pausable serializable and reconstitute it on some other server that is running the same kind of program with the same native interface etc.
00:24:08Araq_make it happen.
00:24:37ldleworkWell the question was if Nim's VM could serve this purpose
00:24:46Araq_I can guide you through the process, but you need to do it
00:24:54ldleworkSo that's a yes?
00:24:59Araq_yes.
00:25:07ldleworkInteresting, I'll keep it in mind.
00:25:12Araq_ha, see?
00:25:16ldleworkHmm?
00:25:35ldleworkI wasn't interested in you doing any work in this conversation. I literally was asking if Nim's VM could be used for this.
00:25:37Araq_don't talk about it, do it ;-)
00:25:41ldleworkWhy?
00:25:50Araq_because it's cool.
00:26:02ldleworkI'm working on an awesome SDL2 based framework right now :D
00:26:12Araq_fair enough I guess
00:26:55Araq_but the VM already can bound infinite loops
00:27:37Araq_and running the bytecode incrementally ... well that's really simple since it's still a traditional VM and not a JIT
00:30:12bprAraq, did you get a chance to look at my weird code that causes linker errors?
00:30:41Araq_bpr: no, sorry, let me do it now.
00:34:10Araq_ah, that's a simple one
00:34:22bprAraq: I'll keep trying to come up with crazier code. Like I said, compiling to JS works fine.
00:38:23Araq_no I mean it's easy to fix
00:38:33Araq_too bad I didn't catch it earlier
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00:48:24perturbationhey guys - can someone look at https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/3703/files ? I think I found an issue with CountTable in tables module of standard library and I have a PR to fix it
00:48:57Araq_perturbation: yeah I noticed but I need to review it properly
00:49:23perturbationokay - thanks Araq
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00:51:24Araq_bpr: there you go, compiles for me now.
00:51:35Araq_note that new-ll was merged into devel today, so use devel
00:53:14Araq_bpr: but as I said, this all works with .nimcall too, you don't use closures to emulate OO here
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01:49:14bpr_Araq: Thanks! While the gist didn't need closures, you can imagine having those inner ...Local functions referring to local vars in the enclosing new<Whatever>Interface function
01:49:31bpr_... and that would need {.closure.}, right?
01:51:48bpr_Araq: All this hacking on faux objects is in response to an offhand comment you made on this IRC about disposing of 'method', which I think is a great idea.
01:56:17bpr_OTOH, I'm not sure that just dropping method and not doing anything else is right.
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02:02:59Araq_right
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03:21:48ldleworkHow do you reuse functions when making type aliases?
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03:22:05ldleworklike, if I did a type alias for seq[MyType], how can I take advantage of contains and so on
03:23:47ldleworkI'm not even sure how to write a converter in that case
03:29:16ldleworkcasting doesn't seem to work even
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03:30:50ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: hey if I give a type alias like `type MyTypeSeq = seq[MyType]` how can I get functions like `contains` to work for my type?
03:33:51ldleworkaha
03:35:09Varriount-Laptopldlework: Huh? They should work already.
03:35:31ldleworkYeah I was searching it for a string, lol
03:35:35ldleworkinstead of MyType
03:35:40ldleworkI thought I had written a converter
03:35:47ldleworksorry for bothering you
03:36:04Varriount-LaptopIt's ok. I'm not bothered.
03:37:04ldleworkthough it seems strange where converters work and where you must do something manually
03:37:15ldleworklike I have a toString converter for my type
03:37:27ldleworkbut I can't use my type with "$1" % my_type
03:40:22Varriount-Laptopldlework: proc `%`(a: string, b: MyType): string = a % $b
03:40:50ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: here's another interesting thing
03:40:52ldleworkhttps://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/09d99e8dc2352ce0ee71
03:41:13ldleworkIf I swap the for-loops, I get SIGSEV on the `let` in the commented out version
03:41:20ldleworkbut they are basically inversions of the same algorithm
03:41:31ldleworkin the first, we iterate over the Table and check a list of names
03:41:43ldleworkin the second version, we iterate the list of names, and pull stuff out of the table
03:42:10ldleworkhow is it possible that accessing the Table with [] in the second version causes a SIGSEV? Why would anything be nil, if I can iterate over the thing in the working version?
03:42:22Varriount-Laptopldlework: The SIGSEV occurs in the generated code, or the VM?
03:42:37ldleworkhow can I tell?
03:42:40ldleworkI get the echo
03:42:46ldleworkabout registering X to Y
03:42:50ldleworkand then bam, SIGSEV
03:42:53ldleworkI'm guessing in the VM
03:42:58ldleworksince this is an immediate macro
03:43:02Varriount-LaptopI mean, does the SIGSEV occur during compilation of the code, or running the code?
03:43:13ldleworkit must be running the immediate macro in the vm
03:43:16ldleworkbecause I get the echo
03:43:23ldleworkright before the sigsev let
03:43:32Varriount-LaptopWell, macros and templates are all run at compile time.
03:43:40ldleworkright, in the vm
03:44:15ldleworkso my point is, if I comment out this for loop, and uncomment the other, they should both be in the vm during compile time
03:44:18ldleworkbut the second one dies
03:44:33Varriount-LaptopProbaby some bug in the vm
03:44:42ldleworkAnd honestly, I have this sneaking suspicion that when you're doing stuff this early, that Nim is running some statements before all other statements
03:44:44ldleworklike
03:44:47ldleworkpre-compile-time
03:44:50ldleworkI swear...
03:45:00ldleworkindividual statements too, not whole functions
03:45:06ldleworkI've put echo statements in my macros
03:45:08Varriount-Laptopldlework: What do you mean?
03:45:19ldleworkand those echo's would be printed before all other things that would run in compiletime
03:45:21ldleworklike
03:45:26ldleworkbefore even other statements in the same macro
03:45:33ldleworklike say there was an echo at the start of a macro saying 1
03:45:43ldleworkthen a loop with echo statements in it
03:46:02ldleworkI would g et the loop echo once before *anything else*, and then my macro would execute like normal
03:46:07ldleworkother echo statements in rational order
03:46:19ldleworkthis line was executed before anything else and only once
03:46:35ldleworkI might have the gist still
03:46:49ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/058d327a096fdb9c52f7
03:47:06ldleworkboth of the let statements, the function that is called have echo statements inside
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03:47:09ldleworkthat say PROCS and FIELDS
03:47:28ldleworkthe first snippet breaks the time-continuum
03:47:36ldleworkthe second adheres to phyiscs
03:47:46ldleworkbased on whether a NimNode is passed to it
03:47:55ldleworkI don't have this code anymore I refactored a long time ago
03:48:09ldleworkbut I get the impression this let statement in my current code is getting run before EVERYTHING else
03:48:17ldleworkand that's why `registry` hasn't been initialized yet
03:48:48ldlework(which is a Table initialized with {.compileTime.} in module scope
03:50:12ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: sorry for the long-windedness
03:51:11ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: almost like it executed the let line as a compile-time constant O_O
03:51:35ldleworkI don't know why I'm telling you all this
03:52:44Varriount-Laptopldlework: Because I like reading?
03:52:49ldleworkhehe
03:53:29Varriount-Laptopldlework: Honestly, I don't know why the VM would do that, unless there's some sort of broken optimization code going on.
03:53:38ldleworkright
03:54:03ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: I probably wouldn't understand the generated C
03:54:31ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: like
03:54:31Varriount-Laptopldlework: I could take a look, I'd just need a copy of the two main generated C files
03:54:37ldleworkif I uncomment the second for-loop
03:54:43ldleworkIE, add all the procs and fields twice
03:54:46ldleworkit still sigsevs
03:54:48ldleworkthat PROVES
03:55:07ldleworkthat it's moving it before the code that successfully iterates the table, if you leave the broken part commented out
03:56:03ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: do you want the version where they are both uncommented?
03:56:39Varriount-LaptopSure.
03:56:42ldleworkwait nimcache doesn't appear
03:56:49ldleworkbecause ... it crashes the compiler
03:56:53Varriount-Laptop:/
03:56:54ldleworkO_O
03:57:08ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: hehe we're silly
03:57:13ldleworkthis happens before any codegen of course
03:57:15Varriount-Laptopldlework: Is your compiler built with stack trace on?
03:57:23ldleworkno idea
03:57:33Varriount-LaptopI mean, unless it was compiled in release mode, there should be some sort of stack trace.
03:57:47ldleworkI used the instructions online
03:57:51ldleworkand i think that has the release flag on it
03:57:59ldleworkI can recompile
03:58:01Varriount-Laptop'koch boot -d:release --stacktrace:on --linetrace:on'
03:58:37Varriount-LaptopThat'll get you something that's faster than a non-release compiler, but still shows most stack traces.
03:59:06ldleworkthx
03:59:52ldleworkthere should probably be an option to generate bytecode files
04:01:36ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: nim's macros are so awesome usually
04:04:50ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/984bfced905460305573
04:05:42Varriount-Laptopldlework: I wish python had templates, even simple ones.
04:06:14ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/meta
04:06:46ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/karnickel
04:07:34Varriount-Laptop*gasp*
04:07:42ldlework*luls*
04:08:20ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: I'm guessing that stacktrace doesn't say much
04:09:34ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: also https://github.com/lihaoyi/macropy
04:13:21ldleworkI should have kept those as random for your perspective on that stacktrace ^_^
04:13:59ldleworks/random/ransom*
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04:27:59ldleworkVarriount-Laptop: macropy looks like the nicest option
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05:40:48*ldlework sighs, https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/bdd22d275e9fe3309c35
05:41:06ldleworkWhy the heck doesn't it find seq[T], T ???
05:43:26ldleworktype mismatch: got (seq[Proc])
05:43:28ldleworkbut expected one of:
05:43:30ldleworksystem.mitems(a: var cstring)
05:43:32ldleworksystem.mitems(a: var seq[T])
05:43:34ldleworklol wtf
05:44:47ldleworkah everything's gotta be var
05:45:33ldleworkyay more sigsev
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05:48:06ldleworkgreat now Nim is moving this loop statement to before the table's init
05:48:10ldleworkgarrrrrr whyyyy
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05:59:33ldleworklol makes no sense
05:59:38ldleworkuse mitems get SIGSEV
05:59:54XeSIGSEGV is the kernel's way of saying "I love you"
05:59:55ldleworkuse items, and assign the iter variable to a "var foovar = foo"
06:00:04ldleworkno sigsev
06:00:08ldleworkhow does that make any sense at all
06:00:35ldleworkI think in this case a nast broken optimization in the compiler is "loving" me
06:02:05ldleworkits like I have to convince the compiler that _no really_ I'm going to need this code to execute during compile-time, don't optimize it away while compiling stuff to bytecode
06:03:21ldleworkit badly wants to optimize away all uses of this compile-time table for some reason
06:03:43ldleworkwhich causes the table to be none when those statements are executed because it executes them way too early
06:03:48ldleworknil*
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06:25:26ldleworkthis is ridiculous
06:25:34ldleworkI have a proc that defines a var Foo as a parameter
06:25:53ldleworkbut I can't access .mitems of foo because its getting a (Foo) not a (var Foo)
06:25:55ldleworkwhyyyyy
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09:21:03Araq_lde
09:21:18Araq_ldlework: pretty do proper bug reports instead of ranting here
09:21:23Araq_oh god
09:21:27Araq_*please do
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12:18:26yglukhovAraq: sorry, missed a regression with new-ll, reproduced with nakefile
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12:27:55Araq_just saw it.
12:28:08Araq_no idea how that happened, an older version of nake is part of the test suite
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14:00:11Araq_yglukhov: fixed.
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14:32:34yglukhovAraq: thanks a bunch! :)
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14:44:10NimNewbhello, i got a little problem with the 32bit release of the 0.12.0 compiler on win7 x64: i can't even get a simple 'echo "Hello World" ' to compile. gcc always throws me an error about a missing system.o object file in nimcache, which frankly is missing. there is a system.c in my nimcache but no system.o ... is this a known problem (eg. using 32bit compiler on 64bit architecture and os)?
14:46:10NimNewbbtw. i installed the binary package of 0.12.0. didn't try compiling myself yet
14:46:56Araq_NimNewb: no, it should just work. what does 'gcc -i' say?
14:48:53NimNewbunrecognized commandline option '-i'
14:48:59NimNewb^^
14:49:22NimNewbi'm using the mingw build supplied by the nim 0.12.0 setup
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15:00:15Araq_what does 'where gcc' say?
15:00:30Araq_try an official mingw please
15:00:49Araq_the one that we ship should work, but I think there is something wrong with your setup
15:02:36NimNewbi got it to work! msys2 didnt work, mingw official didnt work, vcc didn't work, tcc didnt work but the gcc supplied by my haskell 7.10.2 install somehow did the trick... dont know why... just rollin' with it... :P
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15:26:33Araq_fix your %PATH%
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17:53:58flyxis there a more efficient way to compare a range within a cstring to an expected string than to compare it char-by-char?
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18:33:25dom96flyx: I don't think so.
18:35:17flyxhmm. cstring also seems to be unable to do mycstring[1..3]
18:35:56flyxactually, it's interesting that [] works on it since this isn't explicitly declared anywhere
18:36:03flyxat least I didn't find it
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18:39:15dom96flyx: I think cstring is just an alias for an array
18:42:10ldleworkAraq_: sorry, half the time I'm just confused, its 5 hours before work and I'm just tired and deluded.
18:42:37ldleworkIf I ever come up with a minimal reproduction I promise to do so though.
18:43:18Araq_I don't care about minimal reproductions all that much.
18:43:36Araq_more important is that's in a single file so I can add it to the test suite easily
18:44:33ldleworkThe thing is, it seems to optimize or not optimize the statements out based on very hard to discern things
18:45:52ldleworkI'll see if I can reproduce it...
18:45:58Araq_well .immediate means "super early" which seems part of the problem
18:46:14Araq_we'll deprecate .immediate soon
18:49:00ldleworkAraq_: doesn't immediate also let you do things that non-immediate can't?
18:49:06ldleworklike treat the AST untyped?
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18:49:37ldleworkI dunno if my crazy unified-type macros would work in non-immediate mode, but that's just a guess
18:49:54Araq_like yes.
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19:35:29dom96hey ldlework, how's the game going?
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20:31:53ldleworkdom96: I have been working on an entity system
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22:22:34Araq_guys, check your code with the no-echo-gotcha branch please, I want to merge it into devel
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22:37:57strcmp1Araq_: happy new year
22:51:47Araq_hey, thanks!
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22:58:41strcmp1:)
22:58:51ldleworkno-echo-gotcha ?
22:59:01ldleworkI should start reading the nim forums again
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23:07:53dom96ldlework: echo $i
23:08:06dom96is a common gotcha
23:08:14dom96(At least I think that's what it fixes)
23:11:34ldleworkdom96: what's the gotcha
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23:14:07dom96ldlework: try it
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