<< 15-02-2020 >>
00:02:01dom96as a side note, it really sucks that this sort of thing is being merged #13394
00:02:03disbothttps://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/13394 -- 6Fix to asynchttpserver form data/body broken with #13147
00:10:28dom96also, I'm really skeptical about this NimVersion >= (1,1) stuff
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00:19:40FromDiscord<clyybber> dom96: Its for backwards compatibilty
00:19:58FromDiscord<clyybber> The thing you showed special care for IIRC
00:20:10FromDiscord<clyybber> The thing you showed specialdesire for IIRC
00:20:33FromDiscord<clyybber> dom96: Btw, do you rebuild nim-forum once in a while?
00:20:36dom96clyybber: hah, yes, I did. But that's not for backwards compatibility, that's for emulating a stdlib that's old
00:20:43dom96which makes no sense to me
00:20:51dom96Why not just use Nim 1.0 for that?
00:21:00dom96if 1.1 really breaks something for you? (Which it shouldn't)
00:21:31FromDiscord<clyybber> Hmm
00:21:38FromDiscord<clyybber> dunno
00:21:42dom96lol
00:22:07dom96I might be missing something
00:22:10FromDiscord<clyybber> so about the nim-forum thing, I was wondering, because the 1.0 pr got merged
00:22:13dom96but if not then this is really a waste of time
00:22:25dom96no, I don't rebuild the forum unless there is a new feature
00:22:28FromDiscord<clyybber> dom96: I think its to ease transition to newer versions
00:22:32FromDiscord<clyybber> like 1.X
00:22:42FromDiscord<clyybber> dom96: Ah okay
00:23:12FromGitter<Varriount> dom96: new language features?
00:23:21FromGitter<Varriount> Compiler improvements?
00:25:33dom96Varriount: I'm complaining because it's used for new stdlib features
00:25:38dom96and changes
00:25:41dom96this cannot scale IMO
00:25:53dom96if you want to gate some new language feature then fine
00:26:11dom96but otherwise we'll be maintaining dozens of different implementations of asynchttpserver
00:26:34dom96having so much code duplication is super convoluted
00:28:45FromGitter<Varriount> You make a good point
00:30:22FromGitter<Varriount> dom96: perhaps moving implementations to separate files would help?
00:30:53FromGitter<Varriount> Or copying the entire standard library to a version folder
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02:02:23disruptekno, the idea is to be able to build code that may rely upon different versions of the stdlib... using the same compiler.
02:02:51disruptekthis is useful because software can outlive the stdlib.
02:04:01disruptekit's hard to make things like incremental compilation work otherwise.
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02:25:37FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> So for my ECS the components clearly shouldnt be normal nim objects, but i assume should be made from macros, any suggestions on how to handle this
02:25:57disruptekwhy do you say this?
02:26:13FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Well since procs arent inherited you cant override the base methods
02:26:17FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Well since procs arent inherited you cant override the base procs
02:27:08FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef WDYM?
02:27:14disruptekprocs can call their super procs.
02:27:23FromDiscord<clyybber> I thought you were doing interface?
02:27:28disrupteker, methods.
02:27:29FromDiscord<clyybber> like storing the proc as a field
02:27:30FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Interface was for a different project
02:27:33FromDiscord<clyybber> ah
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02:27:43disruptekmake it simple.
02:27:46disruptekmake it work.
02:27:50FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> well i mean you have the Component.update
02:28:07FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> now let's say we have a SinWaveFollower.update
02:28:09FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef So you want to add inheritance to the ECS?
02:28:20FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Well for components for basic calls
02:28:33FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> onCreated,update,onDestroy
02:28:46FromDiscord<clyybber> Ah, you want them overwritable?
02:28:50FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Yea
02:28:52FromDiscord<clyybber> Just make a very generic one
02:29:05FromDiscord<clyybber> And then you can overload it
02:29:11FromDiscord<clyybber> by being "tighter"
02:29:16FromDiscord<clyybber> or do you need runtime dispatch?
02:29:24FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> runtime dispatch?
02:29:30FromDiscord<clyybber> aight
02:29:35FromDiscord<clyybber> then store it
02:29:38disruptekinheritance uses runtime dispatch.
02:29:43FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> That was a question of what?
02:29:53FromDiscord<clyybber> store it as a field
02:30:10FromDiscord<clyybber> I would
02:30:12FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> ah so manually point it to a proc that takes the same component
02:30:39FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> that seems ok
02:30:49disruptekyour factory can do that.
02:30:55FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> in the constructor set the onCreate,update, and onDestroy method
02:30:56FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> in the constructor set the onCreate,update, and onDestroy methods
02:30:59FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Yea i know that
02:31:24FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> I have to think differently than im used to here
02:31:35FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> since in C# there isnt a compile time vs runtime difference
02:31:43FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> since in C# there isnt realy a compile time vs runtime difference
02:31:43FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
02:31:46FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> since in C# there isnt really a compile time vs runtime difference
02:31:58FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef btw, do you know ss13?
02:32:12FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> the shitty game written in byond 😄
02:32:15FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
02:32:16FromDiscord<clyybber> haha
02:32:18FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> *triggering commencing*
02:32:23FromDiscord<clyybber> its getting remade with .Net
02:33:25FromDiscord<clyybber> SS14
02:34:41FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> I guess oncreated doesnt make much sense considering having to write your own constructor
02:35:12FromDiscord<clyybber> Yeah
02:35:29FromDiscord<clyybber> I also removed that setup proc thing I had in my framegraph
02:35:43disruptekon-created can include event data.
02:36:01FromDiscord<clyybber> doesn't make much sense when you can just construct it yourself and then pass to framegraph/ecs/whatever stores something
02:36:09FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: Hmm
02:36:22FromDiscord<clyybber> Like what?
02:36:36disruptekwhatever caused the object to get created.
02:36:42FromDiscord<clyybber> Ah
02:37:03disrupteksomething more variant than the constructor's inputs.
02:37:17FromDiscord<clyybber> Sounds not really useful
02:37:31FromDiscord<clyybber> Where you construct it you know that "event" is happening
02:37:31disruptekdon't write it, then.
02:37:37FromDiscord<clyybber> yep
02:37:56FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: Btw, are you far north?
02:38:13disrupteknope.
02:38:38FromDiscord<clyybber> ah, was wondering how you are always up
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02:38:51disruptekwould being far north help?
02:38:52FromDiscord<clyybber> its always sunny at <disrupteks home> I guess
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02:39:04FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: well during the no night period
02:39:05FromDiscord<clyybber> I guess
02:39:34disrupteki'm not sure it works that way for them, but more importantly, how is it that you don't know that?
02:39:48disruptekyou shut off when the sun goes away and turn back on when it reappears?
02:40:07disruptekyou're solar-powered?
02:40:28disrupteksome of us are not, you see.
02:40:48FromDiscord<clyybber> I mean
02:41:49FromDiscord<clyybber> cold blooded ppl
02:41:52FromDiscord<clyybber> you know
02:41:56FromDiscord<clyybber> we even lay eggs
02:42:00disruptekfish?
02:42:09FromDiscord<clyybber> ~clyybber
02:42:10disbotclyybber: 11[redacted]
02:42:46FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: no no no
02:42:55FromDiscord<clyybber> proto mammal human
02:45:34FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: Btw, I always wondered, whats xstreamstartup.com ?
02:45:39FromDiscord<clyybber> was it your startup idea?
02:49:00disruptekone of many, sure.
02:49:34FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> hmm getting a type mismatch got <float32>, expecting var Component, float32
02:49:37FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> on a
02:49:41FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> component.update
02:49:59disruptekbummer.
02:50:06disrupteki had a feeling it wouldn't work.
02:50:29FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> lol i have a feeling the issue is a PEBKAC
02:50:44disruptekassume nothing.
02:51:21disruptekmostly i'm trying to work out how nigel works.
02:51:29FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> ` update* : proc(comp : var Component, deltaTime : float32)`
02:51:31FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Ugh
02:51:42FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> how do i use that on the component
02:51:47disruptekyou pass it an event.
02:51:51FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> yea did that
02:51:58FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> but actually calling it's not working
02:52:07FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> `x.update(float32)`
02:52:09disruptekmake sure you're calling it with a mutable component.
02:52:16disruptekdispatch occurs on mutability.
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02:52:31FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> issue is a type mismatch
02:52:43disruptekx.update(42.0)
02:53:31FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Here is my lovely proc
02:53:31FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> https://hastebin.com/bazolebezi.rb
02:53:43FromDiscord<clyybber> @ElCusanero Yeah its ugly
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02:53:50FromDiscord<clyybber> you do x.update(x, float32)
02:53:51disruptekwhy do you people insist on fucking with me right now.
02:54:06disruptekand you ask me why i drink...
02:54:14disrupteki drink because you cry!
02:54:21FromDiscord<clyybber> I
02:54:25FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> the first param is passed as a var in the proc declaration
02:54:27FromDiscord<clyybber> IIIIIIIIIIII
02:54:45FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef yes
02:54:52FromDiscord<clyybber> but since you have it as a field
02:54:56FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> this makes me feel dumb
02:54:56FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/371759389889003532/678071717423480852/unknown.png
02:55:03FromDiscord<clyybber> you have to get the field
02:55:05disruptekyou think you'll yield a nil in that iteration?
02:55:06FromDiscord<clyybber> and then call it
02:55:08FromDiscord<clyybber> like
02:55:14FromDiscord<clyybber> x.update(x, float32)
02:55:18FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> i know that clyybber
02:55:31FromDiscord<clyybber> oh
02:55:37FromDiscord<clyybber> I'm like internet explorer
02:55:46FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Yea disruptek i will get nils
02:55:48FromDiscord<clyybber> your x has to be a var
02:55:56disruptekyes.
02:56:01FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> uhh
02:56:22FromDiscord<clyybber> or you make the proc not take a var
02:56:32FromDiscord<clyybber> if its a ref anyways it doesn't matter
02:56:33disruptekyield some mutable nils.
02:56:37FromDiscord<clyybber> unless you want to replace it
02:56:38disruptekthat sounds amazing right now.
02:56:48FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Well i may want to change fields on that component
02:56:51disruptekdaddy drinks because you cry.
02:57:03FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef No need for var then I think
02:57:16FromDiscord<clyybber> because var means being able to modifiy the ref
02:57:20FromDiscord<clyybber> not the thing it points to
02:57:25FromDiscord<clyybber> which you can anyways
02:57:28FromDiscord<clyybber> I *think*
02:57:37FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Well i had issues before without using var on entity
02:57:54FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> That was when the type was = object iirc
02:57:55FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> idk
02:57:56FromDiscord<clyybber> well you cant reassign it
02:58:05FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef yeah
02:58:07FromDiscord<clyybber> makes sense
02:58:08FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> well i mean adding values to it's entity
02:58:15FromDiscord<clyybber> semantics change when using ref
02:58:19FromDiscord<clyybber> ref is an indirection
02:58:27FromDiscord<clyybber> so to change contents you don't need var
02:58:29FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Yea, seems like there are a lot of instance going around
02:58:34FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> with object
02:58:38FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> which is just weird to me
02:58:41FromDiscord<clyybber> object is on stack
02:58:43FromDiscord<clyybber> so
02:58:55FromDiscord<clyybber> it just gets copied
02:59:03FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Ah it's a proper datatype value
02:59:03FromDiscord<clyybber> when you assign
02:59:09FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> an actual struct
02:59:10FromDiscord<clyybber> its a struct
02:59:12FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
02:59:13FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> where as ref is more of an object
02:59:18FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
02:59:21FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> ok
02:59:25FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> cause it's a reference to the memory
02:59:28disruptekuhh, nah.
02:59:32disruptekyes.
02:59:37disruptekit's more of a managed pointer.
02:59:43FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> same shit to me 😄
02:59:44FromDiscord<clyybber> its a pointer to a struct
02:59:47FromDiscord<clyybber> bascially
02:59:51disrupteki think they call them managed in c#.
03:00:05FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Pointers to me are things used to point on white boards not in memory
03:00:16FromDiscord<clyybber> lol
03:00:41FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Ok so in theory since these are all proper references i should be able to remove all my vars infront of entity
03:00:42FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> cool
03:00:48FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> will have to try it after this
03:01:05FromDiscord<clyybber> yote
03:01:26disrupteki doubt it.
03:02:58FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Also for the nil thing, for my entities and components im using sequences and replacing with nil when removed so i dont have to worry about indicies on the components and entities getting ruined
03:03:28disruptekuhh
03:03:46FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so i basically get dynamically size arrays that i can remove objects from and not have them shrink
03:04:22disruptekwhat's the value of indices that hold nil values?
03:04:33FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> On removal i readd those indicies back to the queue, and if i create a new object it pulls from the queue
03:04:35disruptekto me, the only possible answer is `nil`.
03:04:43FromDiscord<clyybber> my faith is nil
03:04:52disruptekoh, it's an object pool.
03:04:56FromDiscord<clyybber> I believe that even jesus has a way to kill
03:04:59FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> yes
03:05:07disruptekokay, that makes more sense.
03:05:36FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> If i didnt do this since sequences resize to their data the ints would go outta range
03:05:38disruptekit still sounds strange to me, though.
03:05:47FromDiscord<clyybber> its *optimal*
03:06:09FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> you store an int on the entity/component of it's index in the ECS, and on the entity respectively
03:06:29FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> then you can use that for anything you want, whilst not losing reference to the other objects on destruction
03:06:35FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> then you can use that for anything you want, whilst not losing reference to the other objects on destruction of others
03:06:42disruptekto me it's only optimal if you never have holes in your ranges.
03:06:42FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> then you can use that for anything you want, whilst not losing reference to the other objects on destruction of other entities
03:06:49FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> What?
03:07:02FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> The whole point is to reuse indicies when entities are destroyed
03:07:08FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> if you need a new index you extend the sequence
03:07:19disrupteka linked list is also easily extended.
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03:07:51FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so with 10 objects, say you remove 9, you have 1 active index, then you spawnn 11, it starts at the first index that was destroyed and works it's way back up
03:07:55FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so with 10 objects, say you remove 9, you have 1 active index, then you spawn 11, it starts at the first index that was destroyed and works it's way back up
03:08:06FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> eventually it'll grab a new index outside of the original 10
03:08:10FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> idk seems fine to me
03:08:17FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> but havent tested it in any proper scenario
03:08:20FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> cause i cant really 😄
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03:08:39FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> no graphics means no proper testing 😦
03:08:49FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: A linked list is not a good idea here
03:09:24disrupteki understand the concept of how the use of your ecs makes a linked list more challenging.
03:09:49FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> i'd really like a dynamic array, which i may look at making after but this will have to do
03:09:50disruptekbut you can't make a statement like, "it's optimal" and not get an immediate example of another design that is more efficient.
03:10:11FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> basically internallizing all of the logic i did
03:10:26FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so then you just go, add this object and it does all this
03:10:37FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: But its not more efficient
03:10:40FromDiscord<clyybber> have a seq
03:10:50FromDiscord<clyybber> if you don't use an element anymore
03:10:55FromDiscord<clyybber> add it to the queue
03:11:07disrupteki understand how it works. cripes.
03:11:07FromDiscord<clyybber> so it will get preferred in id assignment
03:11:12disruptekplease stop trying to explain it.
03:11:20FromDiscord<clyybber> sorry
03:11:39disruptekit all depends upon what you're trying to do.
03:11:51FromDiscord<clyybber> I guess a doubly linked list could work
03:12:01FromDiscord<clyybber> but linked lists are getting less relevant these days
03:12:12disrupteknested sets, materialized path, a proper graph...
03:12:23FromDiscord<clyybber> I mean performance wise
03:12:38FromDiscord<clyybber> pointer indirections are getting worse
03:12:41FromDiscord<clyybber> relativley speaking
03:13:06disruptekwell, they suck. but sometimes they are the right solution.
03:13:21disruptekit comes down to the semantics that you need to achieve.
03:13:27FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
03:13:49FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: are you working on nigel?
03:13:54disruptekyeah.
03:14:03FromDiscord<clyybber> its repo is so barren
03:14:11FromDiscord<clyybber> it screams for a git push
03:14:15FromDiscord<clyybber> :p
03:14:17disruptekwell i'm still building toys and stuff.
03:14:31FromDiscord<clyybber> for nigel
03:15:22disruptekoooh ooooh
03:15:55FromDiscord<clyybber> now its stuck in my head
03:15:59FromDiscord<clyybber> and I wanted to sleep
03:16:31disrupteki hear the nouvelle vagues version all the time but i can only think of the primus cover.
03:17:39disruptekyou're a pianist, right?
03:17:52FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah, how you figured?
03:18:30disrupteki think you said something about playing a piano piece, so i put two and two together.
03:18:37FromDiscord<clyybber> ah
03:19:10FromDiscord<clyybber> that oooh
03:19:18FromDiscord<clyybber> in the primus cover
03:19:21FromDiscord<clyybber> reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f78_Tf4Tdk
03:20:43disrupteki can see how.
03:20:58disruptekanyway, isn't it like 4a where you are?
03:21:04disruptekgo to bed.
03:21:09FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
03:21:24FromDiscord<clyybber> music gettin me all pumped up
03:21:30FromDiscord<clyybber> I think imma go for a run
03:21:40FromDiscord<clyybber> see ya
03:21:44FromDiscord<clyybber> good nite
03:21:47disruptekpeace
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03:29:22FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Yay a functioning component!
03:29:23FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/371759389889003532/678080385334378496/unknown.png
03:29:56FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> And it's actually not ugly
03:29:56FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> https://hastebin.com/otokocadey.cs
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04:44:49FromDiscord<ejstembler> Anyone know how to use `db_postgres` with `sslmode=require`?
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04:46:40FromGitter<ejstembler_gitlab> Anyone know how to use `db_postgres` with `sslmode=require`?
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05:00:45FromGitter<Varriount> @ejstembler_gitlab Put it as part of the connection string?
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05:08:15FromGitter<ejstembler_gitlab> @Varriount Does Oh, I didn't relalize there was a second way to use open with the connection string and blank preceeding parameters. Thanks! I received a new error now, though I'm one step closer. `Error: unhandled exception: sslmode value "require" invalid when SSL support is not compiled in`
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05:11:28FromGitter<ejstembler_gitlab> @Varriount I see this is an issue on macOS: https://github.com/PostgREST/postgrest/issues/1034. I think I need to re-compile psql on macOS, or switch to a Linux Docker container...
05:11:30disbot➥ sslmode value "require" invalid when SSL support is not compiled ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bKL
05:20:17FromGitter<ejstembler_gitlab> @Varriount I finally got it to work. Oddly enough, `brew install postgresql` fixed it: https://stackoverflow.com/a/53893271/691816
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09:19:40Araqclyybber: can you play "Cohen's Masterpiece"? ;-)
09:20:49ZevvOh, that's not as hard as it sounds.
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09:20:59ZevvIt's much, much worse.
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09:22:48Araqhow do you know? tried it?
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09:24:00ZevvNo, that was the #1 comment on youtube :)
09:24:10ZevvSo it must be true
09:26:24Araqindeed
09:26:48Zevv*you* tried?
09:30:04AraqI don't play the piano at all. I regret it a bit though
09:30:41Araqit's the one instrument I can imagine to enjoy playing
09:31:31ZevvThere is still time :)
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09:33:23ZevvI started as a kid but I don't play that much anymore. My wife started to learn at 40 but she kind of gave up on it. It's quite an effort to start late in life it seems
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09:38:12FromGitter<Varriount> I can sing, but (oddly enough) you really need to know an instrument to perform most music
09:38:57ZevvI bet it does help yes
09:39:13FromGitter<Varriount> (that is, most songs don't sound right if sung Acapella)
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09:44:04dadadathis is a good write-up on nim: https://analyticsindiamag.com/will-this-statically-typed-language-replace-python/
09:44:38Zevvhey that's pmunch's head
09:44:52zedeusoh nice, this one doesn't claim Nim is interpreted :)
09:45:53zedeusit's still not a very good article, it skimps on the details everywhere
09:46:32dadadazedeus: yes, keep in mind that readers don't always have time, they probably cater to those
09:46:46dadadaRoss Baker
09:46:58dadadais a commenter below the article, who wrote "Why not just use C? I will stick with python and cython and C."
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09:47:50dadadait seems like dozens of severe security threats due to C code over the years, still hasn't convinced everyone that dropping old habits is sometimes a good thing
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09:48:55zedeusdadada: that's a fine argument, but then explain this "File Extensions: The file extensions of Python include .py, .pyi, .pyd, .pyo, .pyw, .pyz, .pyx whereas the file extensions of Nim include .nim, .nims."
09:49:33zedeusfor completion's sake, they forgot .cfg and .nimf
09:49:43Araq.cfg is not Nim code
09:49:56Araqand .nimf is Nim code in a different syntax
09:50:18Araqbut why would you list the file extensions? who cares
09:50:24zedeusindeed, it's pointless
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09:50:34dadadajudging by his picture he is an older guy, so he has probably coded a lot in C over decades, which means he doesn't want to live in a world where his C skillset is devalued, I just wonder how you can write comments like that before you have given a chance to a language?
09:51:35Araqyou never convince C programmers, you wait for them to die out.
09:51:53ZevvI'm not dead
09:52:18AraqZevv: you're a Nim programmer now :P
09:52:28ZevvI got convinced, right?
09:52:46ZevvAnd without realizing I did my part of infecting the obligatory 2.7 others, I just heard this week
09:52:50Zevvso I did my part
09:53:07Araqtbh I wasn't aware you were a C programmer
09:53:17Araqso I need to reconsider my opinion
09:53:36ZevvDid mostly embedded and linux stuff for 20 years
09:53:44dadadaI once programmed in C also, it's probably just the knowledge that there are hundreds of proclaimed alternatives to it, so their reaction is to shrug everytime, it would be nice if a popular system level application was written in nim, that could change attitudes, something like openssl rewritten to nim
09:54:30Araqdadada: not sure if it helps, there is likely an SSL impl written in Rust by now
09:54:39Araqyet you simply don't care either :P
09:54:55dadadayou mean I don't care about rust?
09:55:17Araqno argh. not 'you', 'the typical C programmer'
09:55:25Araqif that means anything
09:56:24dadadawell, I think the learning curve with rust is a problem, and then you're still writing curly braces and semicolons for no good reason
09:56:53FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> Araq, yeah, I think so, I know a rust programmer and I am pretty sure he mentioned his web had ssl
09:57:29Araqit's all excuses, "C still rulez because X is written in it" -- "but look, Y is written in Rust/Nim/D/etc and it works too" -- "ok, but it compiles more slowly" -- "but look, they have a module system and it's getting better" -- "ok, but the compiler uses more memory" -- "but look we measure it and it doesn't" -- "ok, but I will continue to use C"
09:59:20dadadaAraq: there are some who are like that, certainly, and some will just need to make some initial contacts with nim programming to question their prior reservations
10:01:08AraqSome programmers are quite reactionary and I'm not sure why they use computers, computers are rather new.
10:02:23AraqMany also have reservations against automation, ironic, isn't it.
10:05:46dadadamaybe, some just have difficulty with deciding where they should invest their precious time, there are a ton of options at this point, I wouldn't lump everyone who disagrees with me into a category such as "reactionary", at this point you might as well say "you're better than them", and I think many will come around to nim eventually
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10:09:51Araqthey are not "reactionary" because they disagree with me, they are because they keep using C in 2020, the one language with an unprecedented track record of security problems.
10:10:18Araqmany language that predate C by decades had fewer problems.
10:13:36dadadaI'll probably never write a pure C application again, unless someone or something forces me to, but if I may place devils advocate here for a second, the tooling around C is getting better, and even the C standard is still seeing new revisions, there's definitely a possibility that there will be an analysis tool for C code some day, that's good enough to catch every dangerous expression, on the other hand I
10:13:42dadadadon't know why you would use C in the meantime :-)
10:14:29dadadas/place/play
10:15:11ZevvOne of these macro things again. How do I 'resolve' my symbol inside the 'foo' macro to get the string "John"? https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bLk
10:16:13Araqdadada: There is C++, it has effectively the same tooling and better stdlib and superb interop with C.
10:17:22Araqit can be faster than C too, "insert the old qsort vs std::sort comparison here"
10:17:57Araqand you conveniently use an Integer library that checks for overflows
10:18:00Araq*can use
10:18:18Araqin C everything that departs from being builtin is rather tedious to use.
10:18:34dadadaI'm with you anyway ... I'm a C++ guy
10:18:45dadadaat least I used to be
10:26:25lqdev[m]Zevv: use `typed` params
10:29:38Demos[m]I'm a c++ guy too, but there are reasons to use C, or to write Cish c++ code
10:30:00Demos[m]the main reason is that C compilers are easy to implement and bootstrap
10:30:22Demos[m]and it's much harder to control/stabalize your ABI in c++ as compared to C
10:31:07Demos[m]I'm sitting in the C++ standards commette and writing nim on my laptop :D
10:31:24Demos[m](I can't vote so I don't have much to do)
10:31:28dom96Araq, please read https://irclogs.nim-lang.org/15-02-2020.html#00:02:01
10:31:44dom96also https://irclogs.nim-lang.org/14-02-2020.html#23:57:33
10:32:27Araqok, for some reason the "revert PR" button was missing
10:32:51AraqI'm positive that the contributor will create another PR though to fixup his mess
10:33:25Araqand yeah, I should have been more careful but I assumed that the code was tested well
10:33:32Araqwith jester and rosencrantz
10:33:44Zevvlqdev[m]: sure, but then what?
10:33:47Araqno idea about emscripten segfaults
10:34:08lqdev[m]Zevv: then you can call getImpl on your node.
10:34:36dom96Araq, okay fair enough. What about my comments about NimVersion checks
10:34:57Araqmost of the time it's a simple .since annotation
10:35:18Araqand doesn't cause the code duplication, you've seen an extreme case
10:36:18dom96IMO code that modifies data structures should do so in a way that's compatible with 1.0 and future versions
10:36:18AraqDemos[m]: I've seen macro heavy C code that effectively lacked a stable ABI
10:36:24dom96we shouldn't be encouraging this code duplication
10:37:03AraqABIs are hard but either way you have to stick to subsets of what the language offers
10:37:46Zevvlqdev[m]: Yeah, tried that, but I keep getting lost. "node is not a symbol": https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bLm
10:38:05ZevvOoh dang
10:38:11Zevvof course. sigh
10:38:44Araqand C compilers are not exactly easy to build either, the language is full of quirks too and GCC being free killed the market
10:38:51Zevvlqdev: ok, so this can't be used wher I want it too because of the untyped/typed. Thanks anyway!
10:39:59lqdev[m]Zevv: take a look https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bLn
10:40:26Demos[m]Araq: I agree, and I’ve seen cxx projects with a very stable abi (hell I work on one). But there’s more subtle stuff that can break abi
10:40:35ZevvYeah I found out and it works now. My goal was to implement backticks in npeg to refer grammar constants from outside the grammar
10:40:46Zevvbut that won't work because the grammar itself is passed as an untyped
10:40:48Zevvso that makes sense
10:41:13Demos[m]Anyway I appreciate that a ton of nim semantics are lifted from cxx
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10:55:09AraqDemos[m]: one more thing: I only have experience with c2nim's parser but IME parsing C vs C++ makes almost no difference, you need arbitrary lookahead, heuristics and backtracking for both
10:56:23FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> Can —os:any work on windows, linux, iOS, etc at the same time?
10:56:51Araqthey are both unbelievably bad to parse and I suspect that's a bit of a reason for their success, it's a lock-in, header files are hard to translate into something better
10:57:11AraqRecruit_main_70007: yes
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10:58:04dom96Araq, if I repro a emscripten segfault can you help me debug?
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11:02:31Araqmaybe, it's worth a try
11:06:48dom96either I'll fix this or I'll need to figure out how to optimise our JS backend A LOT :)
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11:28:25FromDiscord<Rika> Stupid question, is karax nims counterpart to js's electron?
11:29:59Araqa bit, yes
11:31:40lqdev[m]not really
11:31:49lqdev[m]it's more like react.js
11:32:07FromDiscord<Rika> But it can compile to the c target?
11:32:16FromDiscord<Rika> That's what I read in the readme
11:33:36FromDiscord<Rika> I misread
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11:39:31FromGitter<xflywind> For C target,Karax is more like template engine or Nim builtin Filter, but more power(except make writing linking CSS a bit more difficult).
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12:00:52livcdAre there some perf issues with the JS backend?
12:13:14FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: I tried once, but wasn't proficient enough at the time
12:13:36FromDiscord<clyybber> Interestingly enough the rythm is what I struggled with
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12:34:34dom96livcd, certainly too slow for my game
12:34:42dom96hard to say how much of that is my fault though
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12:41:56lqdev[m]man, nimsuggest really dislikes templates and macros
12:42:04lqdev[m]or really anything related to the VM
12:54:48FromGitter<xflywind> Hello, how can I parse StingTableRef from string?Is there any way easier than using parseutils? ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5e47ea1818ac9b0fb5c08341]
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13:16:35FromDiscord<Rika> If it's in JSON, there's the json module
13:17:29FromDiscord<Rika> The format you pasted looks like json without the quotation marks, so unless you can't add quotation marks, add them and use parseJson
13:26:49Araqlqdev[m]: yeah we need to fix it
13:35:51FromGitter<xflywind> Thanks for your advice @Rika, but I'm writing session module based on signedcookie, I need serialize StringTable and ⏎ deserialize StringTable.So I don't want to use parseJson. I'll use parseutils instead.
13:40:47ZevvRika: show an example pleas
13:41:00Zevvoh wait wrong person
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13:50:13Zevvxflywind: https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bM1 fwiw
13:52:07FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> how can you add the numbers of two arrays of unkown size?
13:52:28FromDiscord<clyybber> you mean sum them?
13:52:35FromDiscord<clyybber> pairwise or the whole sum?
13:52:36FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> yes, sorry
13:52:54FromDiscord<clyybber> like do you want an array as output or an int
13:53:00FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> res[0] = a[0] + b[0]
13:53:04FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> and so on
13:53:18FromDiscord<clyybber> first check if a and b's len are the same
13:53:36FromDiscord<clyybber> and if they are just do for i in a.low..b.high:
13:53:39FromGitter<xflywind> @Zevv Thanks.It looks nice, I'll try it.
13:54:30FromDiscord<clyybber> @Recruit_main_70007 Eh, if you don't know wether they start at 0 or something else, you gotta check a.low == b.low too
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13:55:28ZevvRecruit_main_70007: unfortunately the implementation is not very efficient, but the code looks nice: `zip(a, b).mapIt(it.a + it.b)`
13:56:40FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> ok, thanks, also i am hving this issue:
13:56:40FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007>
13:56:40FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> proc len(x: (type array) | array): int
13:56:41FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> first type mismatch at position: 1
13:56:41FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> required type for x: type array or array
13:56:41FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> but expression 'a' is of type: array
13:57:36ZevvRecruit_main_70007: funny, can you share a complete snippet?
13:57:37Araqthat's not as crazy as it sounds
13:57:54Araqthe 'array' typeclass itself has no length information
13:59:02FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> how can i check if they have the same lenght then?
13:59:29ZevvRecruit_main_70007: show your code
13:59:39Zevvnevermind Araq, he never gives the simple answers :)
14:00:19FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> proc `+`*(a, b: array): array =
14:00:20FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> if a.len() != b.len():
14:00:20FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> return [0]
14:00:20FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007>
14:00:20FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> for i in a.low..b.high:
14:00:20FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> result[i] = a[i] + b[i]
14:00:42FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> i guess i cant just say their type is just `array`
14:00:57ZevvNope
14:01:17ZevvUse generics, something like proc `+`[T](a, b: array[T]): array[T] =
14:01:20Araqproc `+`*[T, I](a, b: array[T, I]): array[T, I]
14:01:28Zevvoh right of course
14:01:32Zevvalways listen to araq
14:01:43Araqand then by construction the arrays need the same lengths, enforced by the type system
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14:02:06FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> and then, will it still look nice when calling it?
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14:02:16FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> like just array1 + array2?
14:02:21Araqyes
14:02:49FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> oh cool!
14:02:49FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> i thought it was not gonna work, thanks
14:03:06FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> Nim is nuts
14:03:47Araqit certainly has its upsides ;-)
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14:22:57FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> does nlvm work on windows?
14:23:10FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> @arnetheduck?
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14:47:22FromDiscord<arnetheduck> @Recruit_main_70007 patches welcome
14:48:06FromDiscord<arnetheduck> would be really good for it though - could use nim without the whole mingw/msvc mess
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14:55:25FromDiscord<Recruit_main_70007> I wish I had the skills to help
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15:04:12disruptekme too.
15:05:16FromDiscord<clyybber> nobody is born with the skills
15:05:18FromDiscord<clyybber> just try
15:05:19FromDiscord<clyybber> it
15:05:25disruptekshhh
15:06:09disrupteki was born with skills.
15:08:25disruptektags in the effects system are atomic, right? indivisible?
15:08:42FromDiscord<clyybber> what would you devide them into?
15:09:08disruptekthe point is that they are types but not instances that hold values.
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15:09:54disruptekif i want an ecosystem of tags, i have to compose them from types.
15:10:34disruptekso tagElvis0 + tagElvis2 == 5
15:11:58disruptek...and the channel gets /very/ quiet...
15:12:41FromDiscord<Rika> f
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15:13:09FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: ah
15:14:23FromDiscord<clyybber> I think they are transitive
15:14:44FromDiscord<clyybber> so you are still gonna see tagElvis0 and tagElvis2
15:14:45disruptekastute observation about c/++ lock-in due to translation effort.
15:19:04disrupteki don't care if i see the tags.
15:19:14disrupteki just want to act on them as data.
15:20:55disruptekcan you use typeclasses as tags?
15:21:12disruptektagElvis5 = tagElvis0 | tagElvis2
15:24:16disruptekseems like no.
15:24:49disruptekyou can use aliases, but they have to be concrete types.
15:25:06disruptekno distinct, either.
15:25:43disrupteki guess that's surprising.
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15:31:14disruptekseems like i want more access to the cfg from code.
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15:33:46disruptekwell, wishin' won't make it so.
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17:03:50Zevvping lqdev[m]
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18:00:01FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Did someone share my videos somewhere ? i am seeing un usual amounts of subs and views...
18:00:23disrupteksomeone with 150k subscribers trashed nim on youtube.
18:01:35FromDiscord<Kiloneie> trashed as in, shat on it ?...
18:04:25disrupteksure.
18:04:48Araqdidn't seem to work out then :P
18:04:56solitudesf-he probably measures languages by how easy it is to get a job with it. thats usual stuff with programming youtubers.
18:05:08disruptekwell, the thesis was: don't learn nim because you cannot make money with it.
18:05:16disruptekit's a dead language.
18:05:59disrupteki mean, he's not wrong today. but he has surprisingly little foresight given his age.
18:06:08Araqfair enough
18:06:14disruptekon the other hand, i'm the homeless vagrant who writes nim all day.
18:07:03Araqand you're getting paid to do it
18:07:09FromDiscord<Kiloneie> well i benefited some, case closed
18:07:22disruptekmaybe one day.
18:08:16disrupteki do think i underestimated how hard it is to grow this thing.
18:08:54Araqyou can always base your startup/product on Nim though, if you happen to be in charge
18:08:57disruptekAraq: did you watch the video?
18:09:04FromDiscord<Kiloneie> i am thinking of restarting but, idk, should just open up a patreon site, give me money and il do it xD
18:09:05Araqno
18:09:49disruptekhttps://invidio.us/embed/DCfDLWfPqiA
18:10:07leorizetechnically you can make money with nim if you work for status :P
18:10:09Araqoh funny I know this guy
18:10:23disruptekyeah, he seems like a big fan of yours.
18:10:25Araqfrom youtube, I mean
18:10:28disruptekah.
18:10:56Araqhe's cool, I like him
18:11:22*ptdel joined #nim
18:11:40AraqI know him from his videos about how C++ rules, iirc
18:12:14disruptekhe seems pretty python-centric based upon his link section.
18:12:15lqdev[m]Zevv: sup
18:12:18Zevvoi!
18:12:20planetis[m]i think instead of dissing nim, he should rest his voice, sounds terrible!
18:12:23Zevvtell me about nadio
18:12:52lqdev[m]so nadio is supposed to be a digital audio workstation with a keyboard-centric interface, with vim-like controls
18:13:32lqdev[m]it's sort of a hybrid between propellerhead reason's rack and blender's node editor
18:13:32Zevvhow DAW do you want to make it? On a scale of puredata/nordmodular/ableton?
18:13:47Zevvreason \o/
18:14:09lqdev[m]idk, really. I just want to make a thing for sound synthesis ;)
18:14:12FromDiscord<clyybber> puredata
18:14:14FromDiscord<clyybber> then
18:14:28ZevvSweet. If you want a mate on that, I'm in
18:14:37ZevvI got 15 years of DSP ideas lingering around that need a framework to go in
18:14:44disruptekoh shoot
18:14:51lqdev[m]I want something with a piano roll like FL Studio
18:15:09FromDiscord<clyybber> I want to make something like that too
18:15:13ZevvI want something like my Nord Modular classic
18:15:17lqdev[m]Zevv: sure, I'll try to add plugin support
18:15:20ZevvIt seems that that should nicely fit
18:15:51ZevvI hate making UI's but I do love doing the DSP basics
18:16:14ZevvI spent a week of my life making a proper bandlimited sawtooth generator
18:16:23Zevvit deserves to be used
18:17:10lqdev[m]you'll be able to make a plugin for nadio that makes use of it :)
18:17:24disruptekyou'll have to write it in wren, though.
18:17:31disrupteks/wren/rod/
18:17:31lqdev[m]what?
18:17:55lqdev[m]running a scripting language like that would be too expensive, I'm going with the DLL approach
18:18:26lqdev[m]either that or JIT
18:18:27*lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
18:18:46Zevvdon't even answer the man lqdev[m]. you know better then that
18:18:53FromDiscord<clyybber> lol
18:18:55disruptekrude.
18:19:01Zevvasking for it, no?
18:19:08disruptekno?
18:19:11Zevvno!
18:19:14disruptekno!
18:19:18FromDiscord<clyybber> hoe
18:19:34FromDiscord<clyybber> I wanted to ask something now I forgot
18:19:36dadadadisruptek: I have to disagree hard with this guy, even if your goal is to make money, features/concepts of languages sometimes translate well to other languages, if you can learn to dive into a new language, this should make it easier to understand similar patterns in others ... also the same thing was said about Python, and many other languages before, Pascal once was a language you could make money with, it
18:19:43dadadahasn't remained that way ... and then there's the fact that if you're in control over a whole project, of course you can choose Nim or any other language, he's only right for getting a corporate Job where they tell you to use .NET or JAVA. Of course, you know all that, but I had to vent after listening at 4:32 in the video :D
18:19:43Zevvanyhow, lqdev[m]: keeping an eye on your project. If you're doing the wrong thing I will fork you and go for world domination myself
18:20:08disruptekhonestly, i didn't learn nim to make money.
18:20:23dadadaI don't either
18:20:24disrupteki was looking for the right language to invest in for my own use.
18:20:29dadadame too
18:20:32FromDiscord<clyybber> right, now I now; does anybody know of a laptop without a touchpad?
18:20:33*rockcavera quit (Remote host closed the connection)
18:20:36FromDiscord<clyybber> but with touchscreen?
18:20:41disruptekit's my own fault i'm stick with nim.
18:20:50Zevvclyybber: touchpads can be disabled?
18:20:59lqdev[m]Zevv: go on, it's open source anyways.
18:21:03FromDiscord<clyybber> Zevv: True
18:21:13disruptekclyybber: i have a gpd pocket 2.
18:21:19FromDiscord<clyybber> too small
18:21:22FromDiscord<clyybber> my hands are big
18:21:28leorizeyou need some space for that palm rest though
18:21:44FromDiscord<clyybber> I can rest my hands on my legs/desk comfortably
18:21:47FromDiscord<clyybber> and still reach the keys
18:21:54leorizezenbook duo?
18:21:57disruptekduck tape.
18:22:11leorizethat thing have two screens, and touchpad is also a numpad if you don't use the touch mode
18:22:12FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: THank!
18:22:24FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah, I saw that one, but forgot the name
18:22:36FromDiscord<clyybber> Hmm
18:22:41FromDiscord<clyybber> I think I have a DIY project
18:22:50FromDiscord<clyybber> rip out the touchpad of my laptop
18:22:54FromDiscord<clyybber> and replace the lower case
18:22:57FromDiscord<clyybber> with a midi keyboard
18:23:12Zevvwoohoo :)
18:23:14disruptekwhy both.
18:23:16disruptekbother.
18:23:21FromDiscord<clyybber> problem is my current laptop doesn't have touchscreen
18:23:29FromDiscord<clyybber> hmm
18:23:34leorizewhy touchscreen? :p
18:23:35FromDiscord<clyybber> maybe I should just buy a tablet
18:23:42disruptekyes.
18:24:00FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: It feels amazing to use vcvrack/puredata on touchscreens
18:24:07disruptekfor $2-3k you can get a quality midi keyboard.
18:24:09FromDiscord<clyybber> also I recently got attached to touchscreens
18:24:16FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: I have one already
18:24:20disruptekso...?
18:24:22FromDiscord<clyybber> for 200euros
18:24:37FromDiscord<clyybber> I guess it would just be cool to have it in your laptop
18:24:39disrupteki mean something with the feel of a real piano.
18:24:43disruptekah.
18:24:50FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: I have an e piano
18:24:58FromDiscord<clyybber> my parents bought it for us when we were kids
18:25:05disrupteknice.
18:25:11disruptekthat's not a bad piece of kit, right?
18:25:15FromDiscord<clyybber> nope
18:25:32FromDiscord<clyybber> maybe I should just buy a tablet
18:25:47FromDiscord<clyybber> does anybody know of tablets with power?
18:25:55disrupteki don't know anything about pianos. i just toy with the idea of building such an instrument.
18:26:01leorizetablets with power?
18:26:05leorizewhat is that?
18:26:08FromDiscord<clyybber> eh
18:26:14FromDiscord<clyybber> performance
18:26:15FromDiscord<clyybber> I meant
18:26:19disrupteksomething with a microsoft sticker, i guess.
18:26:21vegaiipads, obviously
18:26:26FromDiscord<clyybber> bruh
18:26:26leorizetablets and performance don't go together :P
18:26:38leorizebut I might have a different metric regarding performance than you do
18:26:42FromDiscord<clyybber> nah
18:26:48FromDiscord<clyybber> thats why I'm asking here
18:26:49leorizeso specifying your use case would be better
18:26:54FromDiscord<clyybber> since I havent found any myself
18:27:04FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: I want to replace my current laptop
18:27:16FromDiscord<clyybber> which I use for gaming, computing and shit
18:27:25vegaioh, then no tablets obviously :P
18:27:27leorizewait for ryzen 4000 series laptop :P
18:27:39disruptekeh.. my little m3-1800y is spicy enough for my purposes.
18:27:46FromDiscord<clyybber> buy a two in one and glue the sides together :d
18:27:52disrupteki don't really understand the point of laptops, i guess.
18:28:00FromDiscord<clyybber> me neither
18:28:06FromDiscord<clyybber> ah
18:28:15FromDiscord<clyybber> wacom tablets have performance
18:28:22leorizeplease no
18:28:26leorizewacom is just overpriced
18:28:27FromDiscord<clyybber> why?
18:28:31FromDiscord<clyybber> hmm
18:28:32FromDiscord<clyybber> true
18:28:34disruptekuse one first. they are a nightmare.
18:28:52FromDiscord<clyybber> never drew on a graphics tablet
18:29:01FromDiscord<clyybber> but it was always a dream of mine to own one
18:29:27disruptekunless you spend serious coin, they are going to disappoint.
18:29:34FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
18:29:41FromDiscord<clyybber> khajits
18:30:18leorizeI think you can get away with a weak laptop if you have a beefy desktop
18:30:25FromDiscord<clyybber> problem is
18:30:30FromDiscord<clyybber> I don't have a beefy desktop
18:30:44FromDiscord<clyybber> I replaced my desktop with my laptop
18:30:44leorizedo you work on-the-go?
18:30:44dadadadisruptek: nah, I'm not really impressed with some of the main points of this guy, nim will climb in popularity inspite of naysayers, I also disagree with him on other points ...
18:30:57FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: often yeah
18:31:15leorizewait for ryzen 4000 series, then get a thinkpad :P
18:31:31disruptekwhat he's missing is that new paradigms enhance your use of existing tools.
18:31:39livcdI need a new laptop/desktop :X
18:31:44leorizethinkpads usually have good thermal performance, so they don't run toasty and throttle themselves
18:31:48disruptekyou learn a new language and your bring some of what you learn into your use of older tech.
18:31:56FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: yeah, I was thinking of getting a thinkpad
18:32:38livcdmy company provided us with thinkpads but honestly I was not impressed
18:32:40FromDiscord<clyybber> perfect thing would be a tablet/small all in one with touch amd ryzen 4000 and an amd gpu
18:32:48FromDiscord<clyybber> so I can enjoy wiggle with touch
18:32:52FromDiscord<clyybber> lol
18:32:57disruptekit's too bad this guy doesn't provide some examples of stuff that he chose to learn which was then deprecated and died.
18:33:02livcdthe only ones making good laptops are apple and microsoft
18:33:20leorizeall in ones have a high chance of hinge breakage
18:34:02leorizeI don't usually see the appeal in puttin a beefy gpu and cpu in a laptop
18:34:12leorizetheir thermal solution can never handle it
18:34:19leorizethat's why apus are more popular
18:34:43*Hideki_ joined #nim
18:35:02FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: There are laptops that can handle beefy gpus
18:35:17leorizeand they scream when you start using those things
18:35:21FromDiscord<clyybber> I think some asus ones extend their case upon opening for more airflow
18:35:22disruptekwhat games do you play?
18:35:22leorizealso they are thick
18:35:24FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: True
18:35:28FromDiscord<clyybber> but that doesn't bother me
18:35:32disrupteki'm with leorize here.
18:35:40disrupteki've tried laptops. i think they are stupid.
18:35:45leorizeI thought it didn't bother me, then I built a proper desktop
18:36:02livcdI have always used my macbook as a desktop :/
18:36:04FromDiscord<clyybber> other way around here
18:36:08FromDiscord<clyybber> it bothers me to have multiple devices
18:36:20FromDiscord<clyybber> also, my sisters need a laptop
18:36:27FromDiscord<clyybber> so my old one can go to them :p
18:36:37FromDiscord<clyybber> well one
18:37:07disrupteki thought you were done school.
18:37:12FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
18:37:16FromDiscord<clyybber> university
18:37:18FromDiscord<clyybber> i am in rn
18:37:30disruptekwhat?
18:37:58FromDiscord<clyybber> what what?
18:38:17disrupteki thought you were done school.
18:38:17leorizeclyybber: well the next asus rog with ryzen 4000 seems promising, if you got the funds for those
18:38:26dadadadisruptek, Araq: he's largely judging nim by the fact that many other programming languages have decent web development frameworks and he doesn't need anything else ...
18:38:39FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: I mean, dunno. Here in germany we call school the thing you do before going to university
18:38:52disruptekwhich uni?
18:38:59FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: I'll aqcuire them :p
18:38:59FromDiscord<clyybber> thanks
18:39:02dadadahe's not even considering embedded systems, desktop/game development and other such areas, that have vastly differnt needs than webdevelopment
18:39:02FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: TUM
18:39:15*Hideki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
18:39:18disruptekTUM? isn't that an airport code?
18:39:31FromDiscord<clyybber> technical university munich
18:39:33FromDiscord<clyybber> lol
18:39:51FromDiscord<clyybber> I just found out they do the physics engine for the new blender version
18:40:05disruptekdadada: i was old, once.
18:40:18disrupteki look at this guy and i think, "is this what i sound like?"
18:40:22disruptekchrist.
18:40:43disrupteki never should have retired.
18:40:54*jjido joined #nim
18:41:00leorizeclyybber: you are younger than I expected
18:41:15disruptekyeah, clyybber is a badass.
18:41:28dadadadisruptek: alone the question "Should you Learn Nim over Python?" is a strawman, why can't you learn both
18:41:28disrupteki just wish he'd fix a bug or two now and then.
18:41:36FromDiscord<clyybber> heh
18:41:37disruptekobviously.
18:41:53disrupteki just don't know how to frame the argument for nim.
18:41:58Araqdadada: we do have web development, we cover both frontend and backend
18:42:20Araqcompared to Python which has no frontend support whatsoever
18:42:35dadadaAraq: that's not my point though, obviously I know that already
18:42:55dadadaAraq: well there's a python interpreter written in javascript ... :D
18:43:03Araqyeah ... right
18:43:07disruptekit's not any /one/ thing. maybe it's easier to build a "why nim" article in the socratic method.
18:43:35Araqwell we can all reply on his youtube video that it's poorly argued, poorly researched
18:43:58Araqand poorly thought through
18:44:04dadadayou should, although I doubt that the people who are dissuaded by him are likely candidates for nim contributors
18:44:20disrupteki think he drove traffic to nim.
18:44:48FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: heh, how old did you expect me to be?
18:44:53disruptekfelt like we got some new people in the channel, and dom said we had 11x the usual traffic.
18:45:04dadadaI mean the person who thinks for himself, doesn't make decisions based on someone who read one article, and never had actual experience with the language
18:45:13FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
18:45:25FromDiscord<clyybber> sometimes you attract the "wrong" people
18:45:32FromDiscord<clyybber> ~&
18:45:32disbot&: 11unreachable
18:46:12leorizeclyybber: probably 25+?
18:46:24FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: I'm 19
18:46:41FromDiscord<clyybber> You are 20?
18:47:20FromGitter<ejstembler_gitlab> It looks like for database (`db_postgres`) row retrieval rows are returned as arrays (or sequences?). Is there a way to get results as a dict/hash/named tuple or Type? ⏎ ⏎ `for author in fastRows(db, sql"SELECT id, name FROM authors"): ⏎ echo author.name ⏎ ` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5e483cb7b401eb68a57d2242]
18:47:28dadadaAraq: https://brython.info/ ... :D I know you won't care about this, but due to the network effect everything will be ported to JS once its popular
18:47:30leorizeclyyber: does it count if I haven't got my birthday?
18:47:46FromDiscord<clyybber> I'll let it slip
18:48:02dadadathis is one of my great fears, that JavaScript will be the universally accepted programming language on all platforms
18:48:26leorizenow I feel old
18:48:47FromDiscord<clyybber> leorize: Hey, we are all old because of lqdev
18:48:50Araqejstembler_gitlab: Ormin can do that
18:48:59Araqbut the stdlib can't
18:49:13dadadaand all because Netscape gave a programmer a weekend task, which ended up being JavaScript, he chose the name because of the similarity to Java ... it's pure marketing
18:49:34FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: Btw you changed your opinion on https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/13356 ?
18:49:36disbot➥ capture macro now accepts variables of different types
18:49:38leorizebetter than vbs on the web
18:49:48AraqI haven't
18:50:43FromDiscord<clyybber> I think it feels a bit more like a keyword without the square brakcets
18:50:53Araqleorize: I'm not sure. because curlies are superior to 'end if'?
18:51:03Araqhmm
18:53:05FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: My PR also allows us to use both, so we can do the openarray change later
18:53:21Araqfine so merge it
18:53:31FromDiscord<clyybber> alright, thanks!
18:53:46disrupteki think [x, y] where typeof(x) != typeof(y) is a little creepy.
18:54:37disruptekwhat's the difference between capture and do?
18:54:43FromGitter<ejstembler_gitlab> > *<Araq>* @ejstembler_gitlab: Ormin can do that ⏎ ⏎ Okay, I'll check that out, thanks! Btw, I am enjoying learning about your language. I like it a lot so far!
18:55:22FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: I think do makes a lambda
18:55:29FromDiscord<clyybber> so it will just capture by ref
18:55:34FromDiscord<clyybber> you can put a do inside a capture
18:55:46FromDiscord<clyybber> and then it will capture by value, whatever you give capture as arguments
18:55:58disrupteki guess that works. you can capture x, y, do: right.
19:00:35AraqI consider https://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/192 settled
19:00:37disbot➥ outplace and chaining ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bIT
19:00:55Araqoutplace should become 'dup' and support varargs and blocks
19:01:10Araqand there should be a new module 'chaining' that implements 'chain'
19:01:29Araqsince these are rather simple, I'm trying to get the community to take over
19:02:23FromDiscord<clyybber> since dup will then be like copy + chain
19:02:40FromDiscord<clyybber> maybe we can introduce a general copy proc that just returns a copy?
19:02:47FromDiscord<clyybber> and when you want dup behaviour
19:02:54FromDiscord<clyybber> you just do .copy.chain
19:04:46FromDiscord<clyybber> or we teach the compiler to optimize stuff like `x = x.dup(...)` to `x = x.dupWithoutTheCopy(...)`
19:04:54FromDiscord<clyybber> eh, ingore the latter
19:05:09AraqI'm ignoring everything
19:05:13FromDiscord<clyybber> I meant to write x.dupWithoutTheCopy(...) # So chain essentially
19:05:18FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: 😦
19:05:46FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: I mean, dup and chain would be the same basically, just dup makes a copy before chaining
19:05:56FromDiscord<clyybber> so I'm thinking about ways to "unite" them
19:06:00disrupteki have no opinion because i cannot use it in nim-1.0.
19:06:04dadadaAraq: what swung you against "with", your argument that it has the same use in some other languages had me convinced
19:07:37Araqdadada: people complained x.with(setPosition(1, 2), setFlags(forChildren)) isn't that readable
19:07:37Araq'with' is good for blocks, 'chain' is better for expression lists
19:07:37Araqsometimes you can't win
19:07:59Araqwith x: (a; b) also would work though. *shrug*
19:08:25AraqI don't care about chain, all I want is 'dup'
19:08:41Araqbecause with 'dup' we can cleanup the stdlib
19:09:09FromDiscord<clyybber> We don't need chain
19:09:17FromDiscord<clyybber> when we implement this optimization:
19:09:18Araqand could get really slick string handling into Nim
19:09:49Araqclyybber: look, chain results in 'void', dup in 'T'. there is no way to unify them
19:10:17FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: I mean chain would just be `x = x.dup(...)`
19:10:45FromDiscord<clyybber> But I guess `x.chain(...)` is more beautiful
19:10:50FromDiscord<clyybber> I dunno
19:11:40Araqthe only thing that matters about chain is that it's quite consistent with dup in the end
19:11:46disrupteki find it confusing that we passing `sort()` to dup instead of `sort`.
19:12:20Araqdisruptek: we don't with the latest update of my proposal
19:12:29Araqx.dup(sort) # works
19:13:11*disruptek searches.
19:13:14dadadahow about cc instead of chain, which would be short for ConCatenate, it also looks like a chain visually -> ---cccccccccccc----<- like rings that are intertwined foo.cc().this().that().theOther() cc foo: (this; that; theOther)
19:13:17FromDiscord<clyybber> sort() or sort(_) should continue to work IMO
19:13:26*dadada is a fan of ASCII art
19:13:29FromDiscord<clyybber> otherwise we can only pass arity-one procs
19:13:34Araqclyybber: yes
19:13:45FromDiscord<clyybber> cool
19:14:08Araqwe could forbid sort() though and enforce sort(_) but meh
19:14:23disrupteki think that looks better.
19:14:29disruptekit's more explicit and less magical.
19:14:29FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: sort() is not bad for those that think of it like methods
19:14:39FromDiscord<clyybber> I think allowing all 3 variants is best
19:14:56disruptekthen it looks like "anything goes"
19:15:14disruptekthe idea is that the human and the compiler can both easily grok the syntax.
19:15:16FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: No, its like UFCS
19:15:24FromDiscord<clyybber> call it like a method
19:15:29FromDiscord<clyybber> pass it like a function
19:15:33disruptekwill you allow it like _.sort, too?
19:15:34FromDiscord<clyybber> call it like a proc
19:15:58FromDiscord<clyybber> Makes sense to
19:16:00disruptek|.sort
19:16:02Araqwell since this whole thing is about syntactic sugar enforcing '_' seems counter productive
19:16:08FromDiscord<clyybber> Yeah
19:16:14disruptekwith x: |.sort; |.reverse
19:16:27FromDiscord<clyybber> no
19:16:30FromDiscord<clyybber> why | ?
19:16:48Araqcause we're back throwing ideas around :P
19:17:15dadadawith x: filterByName("John").filterByAge(10)
19:17:28FromGitter<matrixbot> `reversem3` I rather learn nim then python , nim is always backwards compatible
19:17:35disruptekwell, again, it's hard for me to get interested. i feel like i'm stuck writing simple code that runs. by choice. and that means simplistic nim-1.0 that people can read and run through their own compilers.
19:17:56FromGitter<matrixbot> `reversem3` I have so many issues compiling programs that require different versions of python
19:18:18disrupteki like | because on multi-line, it lines up... easier to identify a series.
19:18:39FromDiscord<clyybber> but its used for pattern matching
19:18:56FromDiscord<clyybber> normally
19:19:38FromDiscord<clyybber> also _ is commonly used as a placeholder
19:19:44FromDiscord<clyybber> so it just fits
19:20:41disrupteki think it's better than nothing, literally.
19:20:58dadadaI dislike being forced to write _
19:21:02disruptekseems reasonable to disagree with that, of course.
19:21:16disruptek~_ is unreachable
19:21:17disbot_: 11unreachable
19:21:21FromDiscord<clyybber> dadada: And you won't be
19:21:25FromDiscord<clyybber> Its optional
19:21:26FromDiscord<clyybber> you don't have to
19:21:40disruptekyeah, i don't think it should be optional.
19:21:51disruptekpick something.
19:21:56FromDiscord<clyybber> no?
19:22:06FromDiscord<clyybber> flexibility
19:22:09AraqI dislike the '_', if it's not the first argument, write it out as multiple statements without 'dup'. but some compromise had to be made
19:22:20FromGitter<matrixbot> `reversem3` So pyjamas was an awesome project that got turned into pyjs. Then died. Pyjs was working on using webgl also.
19:22:24disruptekwhy is it good to have it and also not have it?
19:22:44disruptekthe flexibility is just more code in the compiler to worry about colliding with later.
19:22:46dadadaclyybber, and why even have this option then? what exactly does _ add? and why do other languages not need it for chaining? I know this is probably frowned upon to bring up other languages as argument, but ... usually I think of Nim being the one offering nice syntax, and not make me type extra stuff
19:22:50FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: No
19:22:58FromDiscord<clyybber> this won't be done in the compiler
19:23:13disruptekit'll be in the compiler eventually.
19:23:23Araqdisruptek: the motivation is to *enable* calls like x.dup(inPlaceFilter(f, _))
19:23:29FromDiscord<clyybber> dadada: So you can specify the argument position
19:23:43disruptekfair enough.
19:23:48FromDiscord<clyybber> and if its an *option* IT DOESNT make you type extra stuff
19:23:52FromGitter<matrixbot> `reversem3` Is there any talk about nim compiling to web assembly?
19:23:54disruptekcan i foo(f, _, y, _)?
19:23:59FromDiscord<clyybber> no
19:24:02disrupteksee nlvm
19:24:05disruptek!repo nlvm
19:24:05disbothttps://github.com/arnetheduck/nlvm -- 9nlvm: 11LLVM-based compiler for the Nim language 15 259⭐ 18🍴 7& 1 more...
19:24:07FromDiscord<clyybber> but you can foo(, _, y)
19:24:18disruptekoi
19:24:31disruptekyou are making my balls throb.
19:24:36Araqreversem3: you can do it but then you cannot do anything with today's wasm yet as the spec is in development for forever
19:24:55disruptekmy opinion, _ is required.
19:25:16Araqbut that's just my opinion, still looking for anything in wasm that convinces me of its merits
19:25:20FromDiscord<clyybber> dadadas opinion: He doesn't like it
19:25:33FromDiscord<clyybber> so my opinion: Allow both
19:25:39FromDiscord<clyybber> and also allow sort
19:25:42disrupteki don't want to guess at what exists and where.
19:25:49FromDiscord<clyybber> bruh
19:25:53disruptekbra
19:25:58Araqlol
19:26:11FromDiscord<clyybber> there are already many ways to call a proc in nim :p
19:26:17FromGitter<matrixbot> `reversem3` @Araq if don’t mind me asking what do you in nvim for indentation?
19:26:17Araqif you don't want to guess, reading about a topic usually helps
19:26:25FromDiscord<clyybber> why should we artificially restrain it in dup ?
19:26:43disrupteki don't want to guess while reading. i want to look for _ and find it.
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19:26:50FromGitter<matrixbot> `reversem3` * @Araq if don’t mind me asking what do you use in nvim for indentation?
19:26:57FromDiscord<clyybber> you can
19:26:57dadadaAraq: not being stuck with JavaScript is a big reason to like WASM, it's supposedly a bit faster, it will probably allow for porting complex games to the web in the future that are written in ie. C++, and will target the new WebGPU standard ...
19:26:58FromDiscord<clyybber> in your code :p
19:27:03disruptek!repo nvim
19:27:04disbothttps://github.com/jangko/nvim_client -- 9nvim_client: 11Neovim Client Library for Nim -- MsgPack RPC API 15 3⭐ 0🍴
19:27:16disruptek!repo nvim author:alaviss
19:27:17disbotno results 😢
19:27:22disruptekdafuq
19:27:26dadadaWebGPU being a lightVulkan
19:27:27FromDiscord<clyybber> hmm
19:27:37disruptek!repo nim.nvim
19:27:37FromDiscord<clyybber> dadada: light as in heavy?
19:27:39disbothttps://github.com/baabelfish/nvim-nim -- 9nvim-nim: 11Vim support for nim. 15 53⭐ 17🍴 7& 3 more...
19:27:43disruptekhe's not heavy, he's my brother.
19:27:54FromDiscord<clyybber> dadada: Nah, webgpu is cool, but its a layer on Top of vulkan
19:27:58disruptekhttps://github.com/alaviss/nim.nvim
19:28:07FromDiscord<clyybber> and its API is not really simpler
19:28:17dadadaclyybber: no, as in a little less low-level, thus a little easier to program for, but still pretty low-level compared to OpenGL
19:28:54Araqno threading, no file API
19:29:04Araqno OS
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19:29:21dadadathere's even support for accessing USB in chrome by now :-) and bluetooth
19:29:23AraqI'd rather have native applications
19:29:38FromDiscord<clyybber> same
19:30:05dadadawhat's this native thing? do I have to program in assembler?
19:30:11disruptekyep.
19:30:22dadadaobviously I understand what you're getting at
19:31:03Araqlast time I checked wasm uses the same workarounds for function pointers as asm.js does
19:31:21dadadaAraq: when was that time?
19:31:32Araqmaybe 6 months ago
19:31:37disruptekcan't be as bad as using strings for dynamic dispatch on native.
19:31:53Araqdisruptek: hey hey now!
19:31:58disruptekoh my bad
19:32:25dadadaAraq: regarding what browser, they're definitely improving it at different speeds, chrome usually being ahead, but not always
19:32:26AraqI can fix it. can wasm be fixed?
19:32:47disruptekwho cares?
19:33:05FromDiscord<clyybber> dadada: In the end you either have the same problems like you have in native
19:33:10FromDiscord<clyybber> or you have google monopoly
19:33:11Araqhttps://emscripten.org/docs/porting/guidelines/function_pointer_issues.html
19:34:08disruptekseems like you can fix it for nim-wasm.
19:34:21disruptekbut again, who cares...
19:34:30dadadaclyybber: of course there'll always be issues, now regarding monopoly, I hope firefox can keep up somehow, and we must be grateful that MS didn't win the browser war
19:34:50dadadaclyybber: it's not a given that the most popular browser has FOSS code
19:35:00dadadaclyybber: IE used to dominate for many years
19:35:13FromDiscord<clyybber> if MS did win we wouldn't have shit storms
19:35:21disruptekhave you heard about their new 20mb runtime?
19:35:29dadadaclyybber: by what logic?
19:35:30FromDiscord<clyybber> since by the time you load the page, the storm is over
19:35:36disruptekyeah, it was rewritten from scratch. ie11. only 20mb.
19:35:46disruptekthat's all it took, apparently.
19:35:53disruptekjust a from-scratch rewrite of a modern browser.
19:36:01disruptekfun weekend project. and in only 20mb.
19:36:19disrupteki'm sure there's no foss in there.
19:36:24disruptekwhere would they fit it?
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19:39:43Araqdisruptek: link?
19:40:04disrupteksome knucklehead looking at a windows ps.
19:41:53*Hideki_ joined #nim
19:44:59disruptekposted here earlier: http://roryok.com/blog/2017/08/electron-memory-usage-compared-to-other-cross-platform-frameworks/
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19:49:33FromDiscord<exelotl> does `end` mean anything in Nim?
19:49:43disruptekend?
19:50:10leorizeit's used for source code filters
19:50:40disruptekis it documented anywhere other than doc/keywords.txt?
19:50:56dadadadisruptek: Qt was used with python, so without python Qt would've absolutely smoked the rest in memory usage
19:51:59disrupteki've used it with and without. but this is just a ridiculously flawed collection of "data", afaic.
19:53:49Araqyeah, it's pretty worthless
19:54:14Araqin practice this web stuff adds up and does have higher memory consumption
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20:27:50FromGitter<ejstembler_gitlab> I'm using `db_postgres`. Is there a way to consolidate these two procs below into one? Using generics or something? `InstantRow` seems to be indexable like `seq[string]` (Row). ⏎ ⏎ `proc authorFromSeqString(row: seq[string]): Author = ...` ⏎ `proc authorFromInstantRow(row: InstantRow): Author = ...` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5e48544518ac9b0fb5c17991]
20:51:53dadadais this https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/lib/wrappers/mysql.nim
20:51:56dadadaautogenerated?
21:05:30*krux02 joined #nim
21:09:59Araqsure
21:10:49disruptekyou know what we should do?
21:10:58disruptekyou can msg the bot to paste.
21:11:05Araqejstembler_gitlab: yeah but why would you, make up your mind and use only one variant
21:11:20disruptekyou just message whatever you want and the bot turns it into playground and pastebin and whatever.
21:11:27disruptekand links it all to the channel.
21:11:44disruptekand it can pick up discord/gitter pastes and do the same thing.
21:12:07Araqdisruptek: sounds like a good idea
21:12:24disruptekyeah, i think it could work well.
21:12:48disruptekit can also teach people whenever they paste in the channel.
21:12:56disruptekso no one else has to.
21:12:58FromDiscord<clyybber> and the bot will be on discord?
21:13:09disrupteki mean, it's in here. same as ever.
21:13:12dadadahttps://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bOU ... is there any plan to support a syntax without the paranthesis?
21:13:24disruptekit can't get in front of the discord users, but it can teach them to use it as their relay.
21:13:38FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: Ah, yeah
21:14:00disruptekdadada: i don't think it's easily done, no.
21:14:05FromDiscord<clyybber> I thought when it is on discord directly then it could detect pastes and make it into a ix io
21:14:09FromDiscord<clyybber> before it reaches irc
21:14:14disruptekyeah, it can.
21:14:21disruptekif it's the bridge.
21:14:25FromDiscord<clyybber> tho its probably a job for the bridge
21:14:26FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
21:14:52disruptekanother idea i had for the bot:
21:15:21disruptekit has a radio that you can tune. the radio picks up github traffic/chatter and relays it.
21:15:40disruptekit can tell you when prs pass, for example.
21:15:54disrupteknew issues, even new posts.
21:16:31*nsf quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7)
21:16:35FromDiscord<clyybber> rss over irc
21:17:19disruptekwell, it works well for me because it lets me use irc notification delivery, which i already have a lot of code around.
21:17:42disruptekbut i think we had talked about a #nim-news where the bot would post notable stuff.
21:18:12disruptekeven if it was just, "pr passed" and "pr merged", i think it would improve my life.
21:18:53disrupteki would personally like to see new packages added, maybe even new repos.
21:19:47disruptekbecause getting that info in my email is completely useless, as i documented in my nimble pr.
21:20:27FromDiscord<clyybber> which pr?
21:20:45disruptekit was a thing against `nimble publish`.
21:20:55FromDiscord<clyybber> ah
21:21:07disruptek!pull author:disruptek nimble publish
21:21:08disbotno results 😢
21:21:18*narimiran quit (Quit: leaving)
21:21:34disruptekdisbot: you're really useless sometimes, you know that?
21:21:35disbotyep. 😊
21:24:04disruptekanyway, what do you think?
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21:27:43FromDiscord<clyybber> approval
21:27:53FromDiscord<clyybber> Sounds like a cool idea
21:29:20disrupteki need to figure out irssi windows at some point. i just hate to. i guess i can run two clients on the bouncer... hmm.
21:31:06disruptekhere's an rss cli in nim:
21:31:08disruptek!repo roman
21:31:09disbothttps://github.com/lcrees/romans -- 9romans: 11Convertions between integers and Roman numerals 15 2⭐ 0🍴 7& 1 more...
21:31:15disrupteknope, not that one.
21:31:21disrupteki will beat you black and blue, disbot.
21:31:30disruptek!repo reesmichael1/roman
21:31:31disbothttps://github.com/reesmichael1/roman -- 9roman: 11A CLI RSS reader. Mirror of https://git.sr.ht/~reesmichael1/roman 15 0⭐ 0🍴
21:32:07disruptek!repo johnconway/feed-nim
21:32:08disbothttps://github.com/johnconway/feed-nim -- 9feed-nim: 11A feed parsing module for Nim 15 13⭐ 2🍴
21:32:15disruptekthis is 9mos old.
21:32:37disruptekit's based upon this one:
21:32:44disruptek!repo achesak/nim-rss
21:32:45disbothttps://github.com/achesak/nim-rss -- 9nim-rss: 11Nim RSS (Really Simple Syndication) module 15 3⭐ 4🍴
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21:33:39FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: U usin weechat?
21:34:12FromGitter<ejstembler_gitlab> @Araq I have one proc which returns all of the records (`proc authors*: seq[Author] = ...`) which uses `instantRows` and another one (`proc findAuthorById*(id: int): Author = ...`) which only one row which is using `getRow`. I guess I could change the one using `instantRows ` to `getAllRows` instead.
21:34:38disruptekjohnconway is obviously someone who wants us to know that we shouldn't trust his code or knowledge, despite rewriting someone else's nim module as a novice to the language. then they go on to demonstrate that they know way more about the rss format than i do.
21:35:34disruptekejstembler_gitlab: what you want is a common request; as common as your solution.
21:37:04disruptekan expansion to that api would probably make for a welcome pr.
21:37:36dadadait would be nice to have code completion on playground
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21:37:52disrupteksounds easy.
22:05:47Araqhttps://erikmcclure.com/blog/debugging-through-webassembly-is-impossible/ not sure if it's correct
22:06:23Araqbut it's from 2020
22:06:25FromDiscord<clyybber> Regarding dup
22:06:42Araqclyybber are you in our telegram group?
22:06:46FromDiscord<clyybber> do we want .dup: sort; insert(10)
22:06:48Araqdisruptek: same question
22:06:49FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: Nope
22:06:58Araqwell please join
22:07:04FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: k
22:07:11FromDiscord<clyybber> where?
22:07:52FromDiscord<clyybber> https://t.me/nim_lang
22:09:09Araqmaybe, I dunno, narimiran seems asleep
22:10:21FromDiscord<clyybber> regarding my dup question I mean to ask wether we want block syntax or call
22:10:27FromDiscord<clyybber> I would vote for block
22:10:41FromDiscord<clyybber> so we do x.dup: sort; insert(10)
22:10:52FromDiscord<clyybber> instead of x.dup(sort, insert(10))
22:11:42Araqno, we do both
22:12:01FromDiscord<clyybber> Hmm ok
22:12:16FromDiscord<clyybber> So we make it take varargs
22:12:28FromDiscord<clyybber> and then check if the first arg is a stmtlist?
22:13:16Araqexactly
22:14:26FromDiscord<clyybber> Araq: joined
22:14:53Araqwrong one :P
22:15:57*NimBot joined #nim
22:16:06Araqbtw my araq-arc-optimizations branch has some progress
22:16:14Araqfor scope based destruction
22:17:04disrupteki thought we already had that.
22:17:22clyybberOh, nice
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22:17:33FromDiscord<exelotl> it's funny that you arrived at this syntax (allowing both block and call syntax), I settled on exactly the same thing for my GBA library just a few days before
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22:17:37FromDiscord<exelotl> https://github.com/exelotl/natu/blob/master/natu/private/reg.nim#L399
22:18:06disruptekyeah, i think it's an invention, honestly.
22:18:25FromDiscord<clyybber> ok, lets call it exellyybber syntax
22:18:31FromDiscord<clyybber> who makes the wikipedia entry?
22:18:44disruptekthat guy with the funny name.
22:18:48disruptekjimmy.
22:18:51FromDiscord<clyybber> nigel
22:19:00FromDiscord<clyybber> ah wait
22:19:09FromDiscord<clyybber> he would need a helping hand
22:21:00clyybberAraq: This https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/13325/files/333b0fcd84987d32c561857000c8b55069a77f65..aa8a37e1f208768431d6f74bb4e9148bad50bc79#diff-586c73babdc7aadda90947310df85afcR428 is needed because E could use x or y right?
22:21:01disbot➥ arc optimizations
22:21:02Araqhttps://emscripten-discuss.narkive.com/v9pRizaR/struggling-with-function-pointers oh look at that
22:21:19FromDiscord<exelotl> I needed it for optimisation reasons, because when `a` is a volatile variable it means `a.foo = 10; a.bar = 20` is likely to be slower than `var tmp = a; tmp.foo = 10; tmp.bar = 20; a = tmp`
22:21:39FromDiscord<exelotl> hence I settled on `a.edit(foo=10, bar=20)` which creates the temp behind the scenes
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22:22:16Araqclyybber: was the simplest transformation, no idea if it's correct
22:22:30AraqI didn't test this at all yet
22:22:33FromDiscord<clyybber> I think it is
22:22:56Araqexelotl: nice
22:23:01FromDiscord<clyybber> But if E is a func and doesn't take x or y we can elide the temporary
22:23:07FromDiscord<clyybber> though thats maybe a bit overkill
22:23:55AraqI'm tired of writing AST to AST transformations tbh
22:24:12Araqin my holidays I'll play around with alternative IRs
22:24:13disruptekthat's a bad place to be.
22:24:34disruptekare you serious right now?
22:24:49Araqmost of these things seem to be unnecessarily complicated (yes, I am)
22:25:49clyybberI doubt another IR makes it easier
22:25:55clyybberfeel free to prove me wrong :)
22:26:06disruptekif you listen carefully, you can hear hundreds of programmer heads exploding.
22:30:23Araqdisruptek: well good IRs are an art
22:30:45clyybberdisruptek: Why are you dom?
22:31:02disruptekhum.
22:31:21disrupteki am just starting to get my head around it, myself.
22:34:58disrupteki'm starting to think about compile-time as a workshop where i build the machine that runs at runtime and does the i/o i give it.
22:50:21disruptekdoes that make sense?
22:50:42FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
22:51:21disruptekso like, if i instrument a field in an object, i can have it write its value to a stream whenever it changes.
22:51:37FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
22:51:44disruptekpretty doable.
22:51:52FromDiscord<clyybber> overwrite `field=`
22:52:08FromDiscord<clyybber> disruptek: Every program is just a lookup table for inputs
22:52:14disruptekso then we say, instrument /and run some compile-time code to do work/
22:52:31FromDiscord<clyybber> but compressed very well
22:52:39disruptekright.
22:53:03disruptekso when we find more optimal versions of each, they should succeed.
22:53:26FromDiscord<clyybber> *they* ?
22:54:08disruptekthe idea is minimal energy loss and the mass varies with the length of the program.
22:54:51FromDiscord<clyybber> and if you consider your inputs to be infinite
22:55:55FromDiscord<clyybber> I forgot what I wanted to say
22:56:10disruptekwell, all bets are off for infinite input.
22:56:36FromDiscord<clyybber>
22:56:36FromDiscord<clyybber> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/371759389889003532/678374123214471197/1534353932160111059013.png
22:57:09FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Next you're going to say RTFM 😄
22:57:29FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> So now im no longer iterating over empty entities in my ECS
22:57:31FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> im a genius 😄
22:57:42disruptekyay
22:58:10disrupteki feel like we lost weight.
22:59:26clyybberAraq: Is it possible to have pop a value out of an intset with O(1) ?
22:59:55clyybberThe only constraint is that the value has to be in the intset
23:00:24FromGitter<deech> Dumb q, how do I "import" a NimScript module? Or do I have to `include` it?
23:02:22FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> isnt poping a value out of a set inheritely O(1)?
23:02:33FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> thought the point of a set was O(1) access and removale
23:02:34FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> thought the point of a set was O(1) access and removal
23:02:40FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> guess that's a hashset im thinking of
23:02:54clyybberElegant Beef: No you are right
23:03:00clyybberBut I mean popping any value
23:03:06clyybberyou don't say what value you want to pop
23:03:14clyybberit just pops you some value that is in the intset
23:03:36clyybberit feels like it should be O(1)
23:03:37FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> You'd have to get the iterator to get the value
23:03:45FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> since there is no accessor method
23:03:50FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> atleast currently 😄
23:04:05clyybberAh
23:04:10FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Could always have a pop method that removes the first element
23:04:24clyybberElegant Beef: Yeah
23:04:28FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> But even then that's dubious
23:04:37FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> since idk how sets store data exactly 😄
23:05:00clyybberElegant Beef: I think you can use intset for your ID mechanism then
23:05:05FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> already did
23:05:06clyybberinstead of a queue
23:05:08clyybberoh
23:05:13FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> queue is for past keys
23:05:21clyybberI mean for past keys
23:05:29clyybberjust incl them in the intset
23:05:32clyybberand write a pop proc
23:06:03FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Well you need to get the items to get the elements
23:06:16FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so unless a pointer can always point to it's iterator that'd be slower i imagine
23:06:30clyybberJust break on the first iteration
23:06:41clyybberOr make a PR for a pop proc :)
23:06:44FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> yes but the getting of the iterator is an operation i believe
23:07:14clyybberits inlined
23:07:29clyybberso theres no overhead
23:08:14FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> ok i guess
23:10:16FromGitter<deech> Yep, have to `include` `.nims` files if you want to reuse.
23:12:48disrupteksets are 16bit, right?
23:13:06clyybberyeah
23:13:13clyybberbut intsets are bigger
23:13:25FromGitter<deech> I made a little downloader in NimScript that just downloads a file from a URL. It's just a little wrapper around `curl` and `powershell`. The existing stdlib HTTPClient doesn't run in NimScript and this one also supports proxy digest auth across platforms. https://github.com/deech/nimscript_downloader
23:13:38disruptekyeah. i just keep confusing them with something else.
23:13:45FromGitter<deech> You can use it to pull something off the web at build time.
23:14:16clyybberdeech: Ha, cool
23:14:25clyybberWhy not make it pure nims?
23:14:29disruptekdeech: that sounds like something either shashlick made or is very interested in.
23:14:46FromGitter<deech> How would you make it pure nims?
23:16:45clyybberI mean, remove the .sh and .psh file
23:16:54clyybberand call curl from nims directly
23:19:24FromGitter<deech> Ah, IME it's easier to debug if you have separate files.
23:20:33FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Ah nice for some reason i can make this pop work when it's in another nim file
23:20:36FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> cant*
23:21:11clyybberElegent Beef: Argh, yeah you hit this https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/11167 bug I think
23:21:13disbot➥ for loop invoked from generic procedure defined in another module cant find `items` iterator ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bPm
23:22:00FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> i mean i just declared a proc in on file, it says it cant be found, i move it to the file it works
23:22:04FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so that's nice 😄
23:22:52FromDiscord<Kiloneie> When will the Nim survey be aprox doney im very curious.
23:24:01FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Just for context this is my proc
23:24:01FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bPp
23:24:58FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef workaround is to call items explicitily
23:25:09FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> you mean filename.proc?
23:25:14FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> already tried that
23:25:20FromDiscord<clyybber> no
23:25:25FromDiscord<clyybber> for x in iSet.items:
23:26:01FromDiscord<clyybber> also why do you check for the length?
23:26:23FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> cause if it's -1 i want to expand the sequence
23:26:33FromDiscord<clyybber> yeah
23:26:42FromDiscord<clyybber> but the check is unneccessary
23:27:00FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> yea you're right
23:27:30FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> that didnt fix it btwe
23:27:31FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> that didnt fix it btw
23:27:37FromDiscord<clyybber> oh
23:28:02FromDiscord<Elegant Beef>
23:28:02FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/371759389889003532/678382033352785920/unknown.png
23:28:06FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Doesnt seem to find a viable method
23:28:49FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Sorry, if anyone knows Nim 2019 or 2020, not sure how this goes knows survey results, please @ me, i am very curious.
23:28:56FromDiscord<clyybber> haha
23:29:03FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef you missed the export star
23:29:08FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> ...
23:29:13FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> can i have my public 😄
23:29:53FromDiscord<clyybber> you can do export pop
23:29:54FromDiscord<clyybber> too
23:30:11FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> oh
23:30:14FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> im doing that then
23:30:19FromDiscord<clyybber> wait a minute
23:30:23FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> cause that something my brain doesnt mis
23:30:23FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> cause that something my brain doesnt miss
23:30:27FromDiscord<clyybber> I'll write you a public template
23:30:31FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> lol
23:31:06FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> that little asterix isnt visible enough to my small brain to notice it being gone
23:31:42disruptekkiloneie: the results will come out within a month or two.
23:31:56FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> I do like that "hey i want this", "Ok it'll be done" method of nim
23:32:29disruptekthat sounds great, what is it?
23:33:12FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Thank you bot. 0 promises, i might restart, i feel so damn guilty for not finishing my series.
23:33:23FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> That's no bot
23:33:33FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> that's the irc bridge, why you gotta disrespect disruptek
23:33:45disrupteklol
23:34:30disruptekbut seriously.
23:34:38disruptekwhat the hell are you talking about, beef?
23:34:42FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Sorry, im not 100% sober
23:34:59disruptekme too. this might require a very sharp wit.
23:34:59FromDiscord<Kiloneie> More like 15%
23:35:07FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> well clyyber making a public template instead of using export or *
23:35:10disruptekshit man, get behind me.
23:35:20FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> also seems the language itself is very modifiable
23:35:23FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> So feature you want can be added
23:35:36disruptekright, that's the idea.
23:35:45FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Anything is possible.
23:35:53FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> I know
23:35:55disruptekalmost. i couldn't add for: else:
23:36:08FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Im saying it's cool
23:36:22disruptekhell no it ain't.
23:36:24FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> in most languages i've used it's not that expandable
23:38:29disruptekthis isn't most languages.
23:39:05FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> yes i know
23:39:12FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> what's the method of making a public getter?
23:39:25FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> i mean the standard method
23:39:25disruptekwhat does it do?
23:39:30FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> gets a private variable
23:39:34FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> gets a private unexposed variable
23:39:46FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so it's a internally read only variable
23:39:57FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> proper protection/access levels
23:40:01disrupteksure.
23:40:10FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so it's a externally read only variable
23:40:50FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> like in C# the standard is _variableName for the private field and VariableName for the public getter
23:40:52disruptekgetters and setters are easily modeled with `name=`() procs.
23:41:06FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> well that's a setter
23:41:12disruptekyes.
23:41:46FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> im just talking about the naming scheme
23:41:59disruptekthere's no such thing.
23:42:07FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> ok so just do whatever works
23:42:08FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> lol
23:42:08FromGitter<Varriount> `proc name*(f: Foo): int = foo.privateInt`
23:42:28FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> yea i got how it was more how do you name this in nim
23:42:28FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> 😄
23:43:07FromGitter<Varriount> Any particular reason it needs to be read-only?
23:43:27FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> It's time for in theory a game engine
23:43:29FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2bPu
23:43:30FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Naming scheme in Nim is very, very flexible, so choose your naming scheme according to your programming techinues.
23:43:41FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so i want it to update itself but not be changable from outside
23:43:57FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> `echo "beef sucks"` i like your style
23:44:11FromDiscord<clyybber> only does it if you do use it incorrectly :p
23:44:20disruptekholy smokes this wasm debug problem.
23:44:56FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Is there a way to expose an import project wide?
23:45:03FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> export in the main file?
23:45:10FromDiscord<clyybber> nah
23:45:18disruptekno. imports have a simple and effective semantic.
23:45:24*dadada quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
23:45:32FromDiscord<clyybber> that would be a bad idea
23:45:47FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Well it allows things like this without having to modify nim
23:46:01FromDiscord<clyybber> its how you get blog posts about some company abondoning nim because it "doesnt scale"
23:46:03FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> assuming you want to be able to use this project wide without importing public every single time
23:46:11disrupteki think it should be hard to implement bad ideas.
23:46:23FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Well then ill go be stupid elsewhere
23:46:39FromDiscord<clyybber> minuto
23:46:41FromGitter<Varriount> Elegant Beef: Macros. The answer is always macros
23:46:43FromDiscord<clyybber> might be actually possible
23:47:07FromGitter<Varriount> Elegant Beef: There might also be a way to do it from the command line, or by using patchfile
23:47:22FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Doesnt a patchfile mean you have to rebuild nim? 😄
23:47:32disruptekyou can do it from the command-line.
23:47:37disruptekbut that's not the point.
23:47:53FromDiscord<clyybber> hmm
23:48:12FromGitter<Varriount> Ah, here it is: `--import:PATH add an automatically imported module`
23:48:22FromDiscord<clyybber> ah, that was it
23:48:35FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> ah so there is a way to globally import 😄
23:48:41disruptekand still not the point.
23:48:54FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> calm down lads im not doing it
23:48:58FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> It's going to be ok
23:49:04FromDiscord<clyybber> do it anyways
23:49:11disruptekawww shoot
23:49:12FromGitter<Varriount> Burn the world >:D
23:49:23FromGitter<Varriount> Or at least, your program
23:49:34FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef and for coninience
23:49:59FromGitter<Varriount> `--import` is likely meant for some esoteric cases
23:49:59FromDiscord<clyybber> simply add switch("import", "public.nim") to your config.nims
23:50:12FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef voncienience
23:50:15FromDiscord<clyybber> convinience
23:50:17FromDiscord<clyybber> guddamnit
23:50:38FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> "config.nims"
23:50:39FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Ha!
23:50:51FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Like i have anything other than .nim files and git files
23:50:59FromDiscord<clyybber> create it
23:51:07FromDiscord<clyybber> touch it
23:51:12FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> caress it?
23:51:13FromDiscord<clyybber> prof it
23:51:15FromDiscord<clyybber> ???
23:52:11FromDiscord<clyybber> then caress it
23:52:34FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Look at this nice getID proc though
23:52:34FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/371759389889003532/678388211009060903/unknown.png
23:52:48FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> I know i can just use len
23:52:49FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> leave me alone!
23:52:53FromDiscord<clyybber> its nice
23:53:01disruptekthis wasm postmortem is insane.
23:53:48*dadada joined #nim
23:54:11*dadada is now known as Guest81820
23:54:27FromDiscord<Kiloneie> It will get easier over time.
23:54:35FromDiscord<clyybber> dieing?
23:54:44FromDiscord<clyybber> good to know..
23:54:54FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> So has anyone actually looked at my nimcs code? 😄
23:54:55FromGitter<Varriount> alias caress='touch'
23:55:02FromDiscord<clyybber> @Elegant Beef I did
23:55:07FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> ah good
23:55:12FromDiscord<clyybber> no bad
23:55:17FromDiscord<clyybber> jk lol
23:55:50FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> hey considering i just forgot to expose a proc and was confused why it wasnt working, it probably looks better than it is
23:56:06FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Show it
23:56:11FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> !repo nimcs
23:56:11disbothttps://github.com/beef331/nimcs -- 9nimcs: 11Nim ECS 15 0⭐ 0🍴
23:56:16FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Ehhh
23:56:30FromDiscord<clyybber> whoo, your famous
23:56:37FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Yes i know move everything into a src folder
23:56:52FromDiscord<clyybber> no
23:56:54FromDiscord<clyybber> don't
23:56:57FromDiscord<clyybber> be the rebellion
23:57:01FromDiscord<clyybber> the rebel
23:57:02FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> lol
23:57:21FromDiscord<clyybber> disbot is a huge fan of yours
23:57:23FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Im making quite a bit of backend for a gameengine apparently 😄
23:57:35FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> probably named after that disruptek guy
23:57:57FromDiscord<clyybber> nah its the other way around
23:58:12FromDiscord<clyybber> disbot created this ruptek guy
23:58:21FromDiscord<clyybber> hes the source of all chaos
23:58:31FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> so clyybber when do i get access to your game engine so i can feed the ecs into something?
23:59:04FromDiscord<clyybber> when its ready TM
23:59:06FromDiscord<clyybber> lol
23:59:25FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> my ecs or your engine?
23:59:30FromDiscord<clyybber> my engine
23:59:34FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Don't be greedy :P.