| 00:00:43 | t4nk880 | ah. Is there any point not using emscripten nowadays? Using nim GC on top of typed arrays used by emscripten should be quite ok. And lots of stuff will more or less work out of the box (sdl, sockets...) |
| 00:01:47 | Triplefox | transpiling to js is good if you want the code to just be part of a website and maybe use js libs |
| 00:03:51 | Triplefox | (i'm speaking more from experience with haxe which is all about that kind of thing) |
| 00:04:02 | t4nk880 | same goes for emscripten which basically does to JS what nim does to C. But yes, it will be one extra layer for nim (import C symbols which are actually JS definition is a separate JS file). |
| 00:04:26 | t4nk880 | is a separate -> in a separate |
| 00:06:45 | Triplefox | if your source in the target is close to conventional target code, you also have a better shot at debugging it with the available toolset; of course that depends on lots of environmental factors, but it's one benefit that i've directly observed |
| 00:08:35 | t4nk880 | Not sure it applies for nim -> JS though. (I did not look at the generated JS code but I may be wrong) |
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| 00:10:18 | Triplefox | yeah, i don't have experience with nim -> js, this is all from my haxe background...you could definitely make the emscripten thing work, maybe not as smoothly for development though |
| 00:10:58 | Triplefox | one tricky cool thing is that once you've got multiple targets to work with you can debug on the one that's easiest to debug with, and then you're left with cross-target bugs only |
| 00:11:15 | Triplefox | so...just try it, i guess? |
| 00:11:27 | t4nk880 | Unrellated: is there anyway to align variables and/or to have access to memalign from stdlib? I grep from nim files. I did not find anything. |
| 00:11:36 | t4nk880 | Triplefox: Why not :-) |
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| 09:04:53 | gokr | Morning! |
| 09:08:06 | gokr | Varriount: Manually triggered a new Linux32 build, the last one timed out for some reason. |
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| 10:47:39 | Araq | hi Lordovos welcome |
| 10:48:04 | Lordovos | Howdy there. |
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| 10:52:57 | Araq | bbl |
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| 12:16:56 | Araq | flaviu: please add "Nim's way of doing sum types is weird" to the list of common criticisms |
| 12:17:23 | * | Araq read some of Nim's wiki pages |
| 12:18:11 | Araq | hi gour welcome back |
| 12:19:40 | flaviu | Ok, but I'm not really sure how to justify that. I took the other one from IRC arguments |
| 12:20:02 | Araq | there is a forum post about it |
| 12:20:13 | Araq | also I justify it in my drdobbs article |
| 12:20:22 | flaviu | ok |
| 12:33:48 | gour | hello Araq, congrats for your accomplishment(s)!! |
| 12:34:19 | Araq | thank you :-) |
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| 12:35:28 | Araq | I'm a bit concerned I'll manage to fix 50 bugs in 45 days though ... |
| 12:35:49 | gour | Araq: have you seen and/or what do you think about http://gnoga.com/ (as in principle)? |
| 12:39:23 | Araq | no, thank you for the link, looks very interesting |
| 12:39:39 | Araq | unfortunately it cannot make Ada bearable as a language |
| 12:39:45 | gokr | It sounds like the "UI player" idea. |
| 12:40:00 | gokr | I have always wondered when it would appear. |
| 12:40:41 | gokr | XUL looked "almost" like it - but dropped the ball by using js on the client side... |
| 12:42:17 | * | gour likes gokr's articles |
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| 12:49:20 | gokr | gour: Thanks! |
| 12:50:13 | gokr | Varriount: Interestingly the last two Linux32 builds get stuck on the same place, according to the stdio from testament. |
| 12:51:00 | gokr | Although the change seemling is only the "symmetric set difference" thing. |
| 12:51:05 | gokr | seemingly |
| 12:51:50 | flaviu | Where is the Nim wikipedia article now? Please don't start ranting.. |
| 12:52:03 | gokr | Same builds just fine on Linux64. Perhaps I need to restart the Linux32 buildslave. |
| 12:54:14 | Araq | ah so the new buildbot is as reliable as the old one ... |
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| 12:54:50 | flaviu | Araq: "command timed out: 10800 seconds without output running ['koch', 'test'], attempting to kill" |
| 12:54:51 | gokr | I just checked - the test is still running. |
| 12:55:07 | gokr | But top doesn't show it doing anything |
| 12:55:16 | gokr | Something with some parallell 5000 test? |
| 12:55:32 | gokr | Could it be some deadlock? |
| 12:55:37 | Araq | sure |
| 12:55:51 | gokr | Its the t5000 |
| 12:55:51 | flaviu | gokr: ps the process |
| 12:56:24 | flaviu | What status does it have? |
| 12:56:46 | gokr | Is that the STAT? |
| 12:56:47 | gokr | Sl |
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| 12:57:22 | gokr | So "interruptible sleep" |
| 12:57:37 | gokr | I presume |
| 12:57:56 | gour | Araq: well, i meant it as approach for Nim & GUI? |
| 12:57:58 | gokr | So I wouldn't blame Buildbot just yet ;) |
| 12:58:11 | flaviu | Probably. I had issues where the filesystem deadlocked, which is why I asked you to do that. |
| 12:58:30 | flaviu | gokr: browse through /proc? :P |
| 12:59:38 | Araq | btw flaviu I'm debugging bug #1055 |
| 12:59:55 | Araq | everything is done in nice little passes |
| 13:00:08 | Araq | how do I find out why a pass isn't run? |
| 13:00:33 | Araq | I suspect it will take me the whole day to fix it |
| 13:01:02 | flaviu | Debug tooling. rr lets you record what happens, and you can play it backwards and forwards. Also, why shouldn't every pass be run? |
| 13:01:59 | Araq | how does playing backwards help? |
| 13:02:55 | flaviu | Place a breakpoint at the next pass, and move backwards until you figure out why it isn't being run? |
| 13:03:23 | Araq | the pass does run |
| 13:03:31 | Araq | but not for the particular node |
| 13:05:56 | flaviu | I'm not sure why you wouldn't just run every pass for every node |
| 13:07:45 | flaviu | Well, modify the function decorator that declares a function as a pass to also output debugging information |
| 13:08:53 | Araq | brute force output debugging information is for monkeys |
| 13:09:20 | Araq | this easily generates thousands of lines of irrelevant information |
| 13:10:19 | flaviu | Araq: It's linux, who cares. Half the standard utilities are there for similar situations |
| 13:10:19 | flaviu | /me ducks |
| 13:14:03 | Araq | well I guess I should write a blog post why this "lets have lots of passes" doesn't reasonably work for anything else except LLVM ... |
| 13:18:24 | flaviu | Stop saying you should write stuff and write stuff |
| 13:18:42 | Araq | can't |
| 13:18:53 | Araq | need to fix 50 bugs in 45 days |
| 13:19:02 | Araq | most of which are hard |
| 13:19:42 | flaviu | I'm certain that arguing with me is putting you behind schedule |
| 13:20:12 | Araq | I can think about the problem and argue with you at the same time |
| 13:22:35 | gokr | Varriount: I killed that stuck process, so perhaps Linux32 will at least run to end, although failed. |
| 13:23:20 | gokr | So it might be interesting to brute run that t5000 test on Linux64, and see if its always green there. |
| 13:23:54 | Araq | gokr: just disable the test and create a bug report |
| 13:33:48 | flaviu | Araq: I can't track down the forum post about sum types |
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| 13:35:06 | Araq | flaviu: http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/597 |
| 13:37:08 | NimBot | nim-lang/packages master 041d56b achesak [+0 ±1 -0]: Added ffbookmarks. |
| 13:37:08 | NimBot | nim-lang/packages master c3a29a9 achesak [+0 ±1 -0]: Updated README. |
| 13:37:08 | NimBot | nim-lang/packages master 0415425 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±2 -0]: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/achesak/packages into achesak-master... 3 more lines |
| 13:37:08 | NimBot | nim-lang/packages master 069edba Dominik Picheta [+0 ±2 -0]: Merge branch 'achesak-master' |
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| 13:44:37 | Araq | see you later |
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| 15:01:20 | NimBot | nim-lang/nimforum new_async 688a550 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Improved style of threads: better links. |
| 15:01:20 | NimBot | nim-lang/nimforum new_async 0ec7387 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±4 -0]: Restored server side activity calculations. Last reply info added. |
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| 15:04:42 | dom96_ | Please test the new forum guys: http://178.62.143.63:5000/ |
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| 15:42:36 | EXetoC | it just uses the gravatar picture automatically? |
| 15:44:41 | EXetoC | and what about the old accounts? |
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| 15:49:40 | gokr | dom96_: RSS? |
| 15:49:53 | dom96_ | gokr: good point |
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| 15:51:38 | gokr | dom96_: Because... I generally hate web forums :) I am an ml guy. |
| 15:52:55 | EXetoC | Mailing lists are fine. I disliked them before, but I think it was because of these inadequate web interfaces |
| 15:55:19 | EXetoC | like that google one where you almost have to click a link to view the whole post |
| 15:55:29 | EXetoC | *almost always |
| 15:56:00 | EXetoC | should we have a thread/section for the website design? |
| 15:56:16 | flaviu | Google groups is transpiled from Java to javascript, I don't like it because performance is meh. |
| 15:56:36 | EXetoC | eh ok |
| 16:00:59 | EXetoC | dom96_: the new accounts are temporary I assume |
| 16:02:41 | dom96_ | ...yes |
| 16:02:57 | dom96_ | it's running of a fresh db |
| 16:03:31 | dom96_ | *off |
| 16:03:49 | gokr | EXetoC: I don't follow. If you have an ml you use your email client, right? Why is web UI a factor then? |
| 16:09:10 | EXetoC | gokr: does it not qualify as a client? either way, it was the entry point for me, and now I know better |
| 16:12:30 | EXetoC | gifs in avatars and signatures are so distracting. at least we don't have that |
| 16:13:18 | flaviu | dom96: I'm a bit confused on how to build nimforum, do I have to manually pull rst out of the compiler? |
| 16:13:27 | flaviu | Shouldn't it be a standalone package then? |
| 16:13:34 | gokr_ | Still dont get it. Web forum is one thing. Mailing list is email, there is no web UI then. |
| 16:14:00 | flaviu | gokr_: It's easier to use the web interface of mailing lists than to subscribe to them |
| 16:14:43 | EXetoC | gokr_: but there are many web clients. do they not count? |
| 16:14:58 | gokr_ | Web clients for.... email? |
| 16:16:12 | dom96_ | flaviu: Are you attempting to build master? |
| 16:16:15 | dom96_ | build new_async |
| 16:16:23 | gokr_ | flaviu: sure, but ... that would only be an argument for the casual observer |
| 16:17:39 | EXetoC | gokr_: maybe not clients then |
| 16:17:46 | gokr_ | The pharo dev list has perhaps 20-40 emails per day. Would be horrible to scan that in yet another web forum. |
| 16:17:57 | dom96_ | browsing through archives of mailing lists is not very user friendly |
| 16:19:28 | EXetoC | gokr_: indeed |
| 16:19:55 | EXetoC | "great, new posts.... ok which ones have I not read already?" |
| 16:20:04 | gokr_ | I can agree that a combo woulf be best. Taking part in say 5-10 different projects works fine with mls. Not web forums. |
| 16:20:14 | EXetoC | dom96_: great, a dedicated search engine |
| 16:21:33 | gokr_ | Now I use an RSS reader for the nim forum, at least that keeps track of what I have read |
| 16:22:11 | EXetoC | sorry, haven't finished mongo yet. shit has hit the fan and I can't focus atm, but some time before 1.0 perhaps |
| 16:25:51 | EXetoC | not on this certainly. gotta get a hold of some monies first. |
| 16:29:17 | flaviu | dom96: sorry to bother you again, but is there a certain way I need to set up jester? |
| 16:29:43 | dom96_ | flaviu: You need the new-async branch of jester |
| 16:31:52 | flaviu | dom96: What nim commit are you on? I get an ICE |
| 16:32:26 | dom96_ | af84f754b08e |
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| 16:42:56 | flaviu | hmm, no idea why it crashes. |
| 16:43:13 | flaviu | "assignment to discriminant changes object branch", in lambdalifting.nim(1030) liftForLoop |
| 16:43:28 | flaviu | but as far as I can tell, there are no for loops in cache.nim |
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| 16:44:53 | flaviu | Oh, it messes up in the template |
| 16:46:35 | Trustable | Hi all. Is anyone here, which has used the compilation to JavaScript? |
| 16:55:22 | EXetoC | I've barely used it. It breaks at runtime once an exception is raised I think |
| 16:56:32 | sdw | how does one get an array slice by reference? |
| 16:58:23 | sdw | This seems to only support slicing by value: https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/blob/9e00d3aec2da69c23cdb5dba0e3f654e99ded379/lib/system.nim#L2797 |
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| 17:35:02 | Trustable | Araq: I'm stuck in solving issue https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/issues/1490 |
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| 18:02:53 | gokr | dom96: Would it be possible to add a mailinglist function to the forum? Of course, if you have RSS then I can use rss2email - but I can't reply then. |
| 18:03:14 | gokr | Just curious if there is interest. |
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| 18:23:47 | EXetoC | I'm sure others can see the value of that |
| 18:30:45 | EXetoC | is it not best to do it the other way around then? that is, a mailing list with additional things on top (avatars etc) |
| 18:31:10 | dom96_ | gokr_: sure, do it like github does it. |
| 18:32:03 | dom96_ | We actually need an email verification feature. |
| 18:32:12 | dom96_ | That should be implemented first. |
| 18:32:19 | flaviu | dom96_: Have there been problems with spam? |
| 18:32:28 | dom96_ | not really |
| 18:32:46 | dom96_ | but if we're going to be sending emails we need to get the person to confirm that that is their email |
| 18:32:53 | dom96_ | also we need a way to reset passwords |
| 18:33:27 | flaviu | And actually hashing passwords correctly |
| 18:34:37 | flaviu | Varriount: Can you push master.cfg to nim-buildbot whenever you get a chance? |
| 18:35:55 | EXetoC | and constant-time comparisons. I think we talked about that |
| 18:37:05 | flaviu | hmm, it'd be fun to get dom's password :P |
| 18:37:13 | flaviu | I didn't notice the variable time comparisons |
| 18:39:47 | EXetoC | I don't know what we use |
| 18:42:06 | EXetoC | lots of activity in the issue tracker |
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| 18:46:25 | Trustable | Who can close Nimrod issues? |
| 18:46:53 | Trustable | This can be closed: https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/issues/1651 |
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| 19:15:33 | gokr | groupserver.org looks interesting |
| 19:15:58 | gokr | On the topic of combined web forums and mls |
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| 20:39:46 | Mat3 | hello |
| 20:39:53 | flaviu | Why not discourse? |
| 20:40:16 | flaviu | Seems to have mailing list functionality, is fully open source, and is insanely polished |
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| 20:43:44 | flaviu | Pretty easy to customize too, it looks like |
| 20:49:07 | * | Araq_bnc_ is now known as Araq |
| 20:49:58 | Araq | sdw: there is an undocumented unsafe builtin to get a slice byref, but I'm not gonna show you how |
| 20:50:22 | Araq | however, it will be added properly |
| 20:50:29 | Araq | once I know how |
| 20:53:15 | flaviu | I'll try to get a discourse prototype working, I think it's really nice and it hits all the checkboxes. |
| 20:57:05 | flaviu | fowl: I looked at glossolalia a bit more, and it's intersting. Syntax is a bit weird, but seems justified if it needs to fit within Nim's syntax. |
| 21:00:53 | Mat3 | Araq: I'm start working on the compiler port and can estimate to be finish around 28 november |
| 21:01:27 | Araq | Mat3: nice. I'm hunting the hard bugs |
| 21:02:13 | Mat3 | who else help you out ? |
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| 21:03:53 | Araq | Varriount__ is also fixing bugs, dom96_ works on the new website |
| 21:04:08 | Araq | trustable is fighting with the JS codegen |
| 21:04:55 | Araq | but surely you can help out too. just select a "high priority" bug and ask questions here |
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| 21:09:43 | Mat3 | ok, I look what I can do |
| 21:13:35 | fowl | flaviu, whats weird about it |
| 21:14:18 | flaviu | fowl: `*foo`, vs `foo*` |
| 21:15:12 | flaviu | It's definitely not a big deal, don't worry about it |
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| 21:19:14 | Varriount|Busy | Araq: Regarding the buildbot, I told you about the problem with koch test last week. |
| 21:19:31 | Araq | did you? |
| 21:20:22 | fowl | flaviu, yea? you aren't going to fault me for not using postfix operators -- which don't exist in nimrod anyways. thanks |
| 21:20:40 | Varriount|Busy | Araq: Yeah. I asked if the tester did something odd regarding output, because the buildbot software wasn't detecting any output. |
| 21:20:59 | Varriount|Busy | Or rather, it was detecting output, but only occasionally. |
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| 21:21:13 | Araq | ok, but gokr said some test deadlocks |
| 21:21:19 | Araq | big difference |
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| 21:22:38 | Varriount|Busy | flaviu: The config.py in the nim-buildbot repo is master.cfg - I just wanted the advantage of python syntax highlighting in github. |
| 21:23:15 | Varriount|Busy | I haven't had a chance to update it because I've been busy with other things. |
| 21:23:28 | flaviu | fowl: I'm not being sarcastic at all. Ah, I see why you thought that |
| 21:23:28 | flaviu | s/if/since/, the wording got messed up between my head and keyboard. |
| 21:24:09 | fowl | i prefer the worded versions anyways |
| 21:24:38 | Varriount|Busy | Araq: So.. What? The buildbot is technically reliable in that respect. If the tester gets stuck on a test/deadlocks, then something is wrong with it, and it should be marked as 'failed'. |
| 21:24:42 | fowl | *foo is foo.repeat(0), +foo is foo.repeat(1), ?foo is foo.repeat(0,1) |
| 21:25:28 | Araq | Varriount|Busy: ok sure, the tester itself needs a timeout feature |
| 21:26:03 | Araq | but as I said, don't treat the tests as "omg I must not touch them", disable what doesn't work and create issues for it |
| 21:26:27 | Araq | especially if they block the tester for now |
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| 21:33:09 | EXetoC | flaviu: discourse seems nice |
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| 21:36:15 | EXetoC | it's nice to use nimrod in production, but we need enough devs to implement all the features |
| 21:36:36 | EXetoC | though it's used for several other projects already |
| 21:37:14 | gokr1 | I am not sure exactly what happened with the t5000 test - but nothing was happening and the process was in state "Sl". I am no expert on Process states, but it looks like "interruptible sleep". |
| 21:37:42 | gokr1 | Now... my guess it happens "sometimes" on that particular test. |
| 21:38:30 | gokr1 | flaviu: Discourse looks nice, but it still doesn't seem to be a "mailinglist" - it seems you can't create a topic via email, but I am not sure. |
| 21:39:05 | gokr1 | And for the record - if dom96 builds the forum in Nim, then I am all for supporting that. |
| 21:39:36 | flaviu | EXetoC: My thoughts are that while dogfooding is great, it's even better to use whatever works best. |
| 21:40:33 | EXetoC | yeah |
| 21:43:11 | Mat3 | sorry, what works best ? |
| 21:43:24 | * | Mat3 is now known as Mat3|coding |
| 21:43:33 | flaviu | Mat3|coding: Right now, I'm investigating Discourse |
| 21:44:15 | flaviu | If dom96 builds the forum, there would be no objections from me against using it. |
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| 21:47:55 | Mat3|coding | I found the forum in its current state just fine. It's only, personally I miss a functionality to change my private settings (it can be I'm just not found out how to do it yet) |
| 21:53:57 | EXetoC | password recovery, e-mail validation and encryption are important aspects though |
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| 21:57:37 | Araq | good night |
| 21:58:54 | Mat3|coding | ciao |
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| 21:59:36 | flaviu | http://24.126.215.38/ |
| 22:00:03 | flaviu | Seems easy to set up, just a single file's confugration |
| 22:00:28 | EXetoC | I assume it can do polls |
| 22:00:41 | EXetoC | what about nimrod syntax highlighting? |
| 22:01:24 | EXetoC | of course. I viewed a poll a couple of minutes ago |
| 22:01:37 | flaviu | If necessary, I can patch it. |
| 22:03:18 | flaviu | It has python, but I'm sure I can patch it. |
| 22:11:01 | fowl | i like the layout. just steal the layout :p |
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| 22:33:37 | dom96_ | flaviu: I don't particularly like the look of that. |
| 22:33:49 | dom96_ | Perhaps it's the background that you made it use. |
| 22:33:54 | flaviu | dom96: Yep, it doesn't fit the rest of the site right now. |
| 22:34:02 | flaviu | Working on the CSS now |
| 22:34:46 | dom96_ | flaviu: Instead of wasting time on that why not help me out with the Nim forum? |
| 22:35:32 | flaviu | Because I think that discourse is a better platform. |
| 22:36:08 | flaviu | one or two people cannot hope to create something as polished in a month as a whole team over a year or two |
| 22:37:24 | dom96_ | I think that Nim forum is a nice show case of production ready Nim software. |
| 22:38:04 | dom96_ | Nothing is a better test of Nim than that. |
| 22:40:07 | flaviu | That's as good a reason as any. I just want an excuse to mess around with Discourse. |
| 22:41:11 | gokr1 | And I just want email :). Sorry Dominik, not my intention to disrespect all that work you put into it. Perhaps I can help somehow, unfortunately I don't have that much free time as I had years back :) |
| 22:41:42 | gokr1 | But perhaps it can just be "bridged" with say Mailman3 or something? |
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| 22:42:45 | gokr1 | Or something more lightweight. |
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| 22:43:05 | EXetoC | as long as it doesn't take ages to implement the missing things |
| 22:43:15 | flaviu | Yeah, one thing discourse does not do well is be lightweight. |
| 22:43:33 | flaviu | 230MB idle |
| 22:45:13 | EXetoC | small potatoes :p |
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| 23:27:52 | flaviu | dom96: The new forums are down |
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| 23:57:16 | flaviu | Well, it looks pretty great: http://24.126.215.38/ |