<< 16-09-2014 >>
00:03:38Varriountdom96: Name?
00:05:25dom96Varriount: hrm
00:05:44dom96Varriount: nim-install?
00:05:57dom96just off the top of my head
00:09:01Varriountdom96: Hm. Good, but it sounds too much like an installer. What do you think of "nim-velcro"? or "nim-laceup"?
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00:10:34dom96Varriount: Are those just random names you came up with or do they have some sort of connection to the purpose of these scripts?
00:11:30Varriountdom96: Well, the script is essentially an auto-bootstrapper
00:11:52dom96hrm
00:11:57dom96nim-quickboot?
00:12:00Varriountdom96: Since "bootstrap" used to mean to pull one's self up by one's laces...
00:12:03dom96or just quickboot
00:12:18Varriountnimboot?
00:12:47dom96that sounds too official
00:12:56Triplefoxan alternative is "kickstart" which amiga used
00:12:58VarriountThis isn't official?
00:13:10dom96it's a shortcut
00:13:49dom96I like "kickstart"
00:14:01dom96yeah, let's use that.
00:14:05Triplefoxcool
00:14:16*Varriount gives a cooke to Triplefox
00:14:21Varriount*cookie
00:15:29Varriountdom96: So 'nim-kickstart' or just 'kickstart'?
00:16:10dom96just kickstart
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00:31:54dom96'night
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07:22:15edayoI'd like to implement a db_interface for firebirdsql can anyone point me in the right direction?
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08:39:33Araq_edayo_: copy db_sqlite and throw away the implementation ;-)
08:40:18Araq_however the db_* modules will be replaced by dbj_* modules which map the SQL data to JSON
08:40:33Araq_the old way of doing it all with 'string' has its problems
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10:18:20edayo_interesting approach Araq_ ;)
10:19:13edayo_where do i find the new dbj_* modules?
10:19:46Araq_they don't exist yet...
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11:41:16Araq_dom96: it's fine to pull the PR if you document the breaking change in the news.txt
11:41:25Araq_do it on devel, I'll merge it into bigbreak later
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11:52:27dom96Araq_: ok
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12:28:32Araq_hi ronchilla__ welcome
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15:38:17NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak efca06c Dominik Picheta [+0 ±2 -0]: Add bool to determine if socket has been closed.
15:43:15NimBotdom96/jester new-async 96dfcbc Dominik Picheta [+2 ±3 -0]: More examples. Readme modifications.
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20:36:04Jehan_The joys of CGNAT and IRC …
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20:50:20NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 297647a Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: fixes a recently introduced regression
20:50:20NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 32b582b Araq [+0 ±6 -0]: Merge branch 'bigbreak' of https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod into bigbreak
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21:31:54JasonJAyalaPI proposed a new syntax for module imports (http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/559) feel free to poke holes in it.
21:33:00reactormonkJasonJAyalaP, also how it would look like with what we have so it's got a before-after
21:33:23JasonJAyalaPAraq: If you wanna talk about details concerning the mac installer, hit me up (here; github; [email protected]; forum)
21:33:58JasonJAyalaPreactormonk: A before vs After comparison/translation, you mean?
21:34:42JasonJAyalaPreactormonk: I started to do that. I opened up a bunch of libraries, but most simply did `import m1, m2, m3` or had one or two lines
21:35:20JasonJAyalaPreactormonk: With the current implementation, the `from` keyword makes it impossible to nest everything
21:35:38JasonJAyalaPand so I made up an example that included one of each
21:36:39AraqJasonJAyalaP: I like 'except' better than 'exclude'
21:37:22Araqalso 'include' already exists as opposed to 'import' so I think your syntax is more confusing
21:37:42JasonJAyalaPAraq: include/exclude has the benefit of being the same number of chars (instant alignment!), but only/except, or whatever, might be better
21:37:52JasonJAyalaPAraq: ahh, that's a good reason not to use include
21:38:35Araqwe have 'with' and 'without' as keywords available iirc
21:39:17Araqyeah ... import foo with abc
21:39:23Araqimport foo without bar
21:39:32JasonJAyalaPAraq: `with` implies "in addition to". `only` would be clearer. But this is a minor point. Whatever looks good to you
21:39:53Araqtrue
21:40:13Araqdo you know 'import foo except bar' already exists?
21:40:29Araqso ... I'm not too sure what your proposal buys us
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21:41:11JasonJAyalaPAdmittedly, there's a bit of redundancy when you use include/exclude: Why would anyone bother to include/exclude unless they're also going to use `open`? My syntax allows you to exclude/include even when specifying a namespace, but forces you type `open` in the most common case
21:42:17JasonJAyalaPAraq: Well, it gets rid of `from` and `nil`.... from hurts readability (and makes it so you can nest), and nil seems like an unmemorable patch
21:42:27JasonJAyalaP*can't nest
21:42:30Araqhey :P
21:42:38JasonJAyalaPHeh heh
21:42:52Araqthere is some logic to it, but python's solution is perhaps better
21:43:02JasonJAyalaPMostly is about consistancy, memorability, and explicitness over implicitness
21:43:30Araqthis whole "omg, don't import *everything* by default" comes up regularly
21:43:49Araqbut ultimately simply shows that you don't know how Nim works :P
21:44:25Araqfrom tables import `[]`, `[]=`, len # fuck you, of course I want these
21:44:46Araqbbs
21:46:24JasonJAyalaPAraq: Is nimrod's import modeled after python's?
21:47:17JasonJAyalaP(my syntax, btw, is default agnostic)
21:49:20JasonJAyalaPI'm trying to look for an example of something that my syntax can't do, or doesn't do more logically/memorably
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21:54:19Jehan_I'm not a huge fan of the "from x import nil" syntax myself, but I'm not sure I understand the following: Note: The default in all languages, even when a new namespace is specified(!)
21:54:27Jehan_What do you mean by "all languages"?
21:55:23AraqJasonJAyalaP: it's modelled after delphi and python and then additional things like 'except' have been added
21:55:56JasonJAyalaPJehan_: "many languages" I should have said
21:56:43Jehan_JasonJAyalaP: Well, off the top of my head, there are at least the following exceptions: C#, Haskell, OCaml, Pascal (Units), Eiffel.
21:56:52JasonJAyalaPJehan_: It's a minor, off-topic, philosophical point: If a specify a namespace, should the "regular/default" namespace be kept?
21:57:39JasonJAyalaP*If I specify a namespace
21:58:00Jehan_JasonJAyalaP: Not sure I'm following you there.
21:58:30Jehan_If you specify a namespace, what is the "regular/default" namespace? Can you provide an example to illustrate what you mean?
21:58:33EXetoCas in, having two additional namespaces instead?
21:58:56JasonJAyalaPJehan_: If I say "The namespace for my_module is mmd" Does that mean my_module.func is still accessible?
21:59:27Jehan_As in, "import my_module as mmd"?
21:59:45JasonJAyalaPright
21:59:50Jehan_Since the purpose of such a declaration is usually to avoid naming conflicts, I'd suppose not.
22:00:28Jehan_The idea is to "import project1.foo as foo1; import project2.foo as foo2"
22:00:42Jehan_Having "foo" persist does not help.
22:01:02JasonJAyalaPJehan_: You mean having "project1" persist
22:01:15Jehan_JasonJAyalaP: Hmm?
22:01:30Jehan_Nim only uses the last part of the module path as a namespace.
22:01:47JasonJAyalaPJehan_: oh sorry, I read that wrong. right
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22:03:24JasonJAyalaPJehan_: In that example, leaving the "default" namespace actively creates a conflict. But I don't see the use of having multiple namespaces anyway
22:03:55Jehan_Umm … what do you mean by "I don't see the use of having multiple namespaces anyway"?
22:04:16JasonJAyalaPIf I tell the compiler "this is how I want to refer to this module", that should be that.
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22:04:58Jehan_JasonJAyalaP: Can you provide an example where this happens? I'm afraid I'm completely lost.
22:05:50JasonJAyalaPJehan_: `import My_Module as MM` `MM.func` works, should `My_Module.func` work as well?
22:06:26AraqJasonJAyalaP: I'm pretty sure it doesn't work
22:06:34Araqand indeed it shouldn't
22:06:40Jehan_Not as far as I can tell, but it doesn't, so?
22:07:13Jehan_import A as B is a rename, not a replication.
22:07:18JasonJAyalaPAraq: Ah, then I was mistaken when I brought it up. Ignore it.
22:07:29dom96JasonJAyalaP: I think most of what you propose is already available in Nim, no?
22:07:42dom96I'm not sure what "open" means
22:08:08Jehan_dom96: I think the biggest issue is whether qualified or unqualified access to module members should be the default.
22:08:27JasonJAyalaPdom96: My syntax doesn't add functionality. Just makes it more consistent and explicity (and therefore memorable)
22:08:46Jehan_dom96: I'm reading "open" as unqualified access by default.
22:08:46JasonJAyalaPJehan_: Nah. My syntax supports either way.
22:08:48EXetoCthe important thing is to get people to realize that never qualifying is bad
22:09:02Jehan_JasonJAyalaP: Only one can be the default, though.
22:09:28Jehan_And I think backwards compatibility alone forces unqualified access to be the default.
22:09:47dom96Jehan_: I see. I don't think qualified should be default because of operators.
22:09:48JasonJAyalaPdom96: The first decision is "where do I put all these imported procs and types? What do I call the namespace". That could be the module name, a new name, or "into the current namespace" (open)
22:09:51EXetoCI would never want to always qualify I think
22:11:04Jehan_I'm in favor of having a better syntax for qualified import instead of "from module import nil", but it's not a big enough issue for me to lose sleep over. :)
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22:12:20dom96I'm ... pretty much indifferent. I like the current syntax because it's similar to Python. But getting some consistency would be nice too.
22:13:39Araq*shrug* we can perhaps replace 'from foo import nil' with 'import only foo'
22:14:02Araqif that's so much of an issue
22:14:42dom96I would prefer 'import qualified foo'
22:17:02JasonJAyalaPdom96: You mean`import foo`?
22:18:35dom96no, that should stay unqualified by default
22:18:56Jehan_JasonJAyalaP: I think dom96 is thinking of this: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Import
22:19:10Joe_knockIs there a quick/easy way to install the breaking branch?
22:19:20Jehan_dom96: Not just should. I don't think how you could change the default without literally breaking every single piece of code in existence.
22:19:36JasonJAyalaPJehan_: Ah right. The default is my `open`. I get it
22:19:39EXetoCJoe_knock: the standard way doesn't satisfy either requirement?
22:20:00Joe_knockEXetoC: What is the standard way to update nimrod?
22:20:31JasonJAyalaPand `import qualified Module` would be my `import Module as Module`
22:20:34JasonJAyalaPhmm
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22:21:18Jehan_Joe_knock: use git clone -b bigbreak --depth 1 [email protected]:nimrod-code/csources instead of the usual csources clone in the instructions.
22:21:19Joe_knockIf you're going for syntax consistency, why not target all the nice parts of python specifically.
22:21:49Jehan_Joe_knock: Because Python is an untyped language. It has to deal with completely different constraints.
22:22:23Joe_knockJehan_: With that being said, quite a few of the parts can still remain "pythonic"
22:22:26Jehan_Well, dynamically typed.
22:22:46Jehan_Joe_knock: Yeah, but I'm not sure which ones you're thinking of?
22:23:14Jehan_Module import is one thing that's dramatically different for a dynamically typed language.
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22:23:34Joe_knockJehan_: I don't have any specifics myself. I'm pretty content/happy with the current syntax. Just thought I'd chip in to discussion
22:23:58Jehan_Joe_knock: Ah, I see.
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22:26:04dom96Joe_knock: I'm afraid you'll have to follow the instructions in the readme.
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22:28:06JasonJAyalaPI think I found somewhere where I'm confused.... What is the difference between `import strutils as su` and `from strutils import nil` ?
22:28:17Joe_knockdom96: https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/blob/bigbreak/readme.md ??
22:28:36dom96Joe_knock: yes
22:29:03JasonJAyalaPCorrection `import strutils as strutils` and `from strutils import nil`
22:29:17EXetoCJasonJAyalaP: the latter forces you to qualify with 'strutils', and the latter is like "import", but if you want to qualify then you'd have to use 'su'
22:29:19dom96JasonJAyalaP: there is none.
22:29:27EXetoC?
22:29:28Joe_knockdom96: Nothing on doing an update (unless git clone counts?)
22:29:29EXetoCoh
22:29:41EXetoCsome difference surely
22:29:52Jehan_Joe_knock: https://gist.github.com/rbehrends/0e3f58a229ba31396253
22:30:03JasonJAyalaPEXetoC: is `from strutils import nil` another way of saying `import strutils as strutils` ?
22:30:29Jehan_JasonJAyalaP: Umm. Not the way it currently works.
22:30:47Jehan_"from strutils import nil" requires you to qualify all use of strutils members.
22:31:02Jehan_"import strutils as strutils" is the same as "import strutils".
22:31:05Joe_knockThanks Jehan_. @Araq : When will a stable release of bigbreak be released?
22:32:56JasonJAyalaPJehan_: I thought `import strutils` lets you do strutils.func as well as func ... `import strutils as strutils` only lets you do strutils.func, correct?
22:33:29JasonJAyalaPthat is, `as` doesn't import into the current namespace
22:33:48Jehan_It does.
22:34:13AraqJoe_knock: pretty sure it'll be this month
22:34:41EXetoCJasonJAyalaP: so the difference is the name you'd qualify with
22:34:56Jehan_"import strutils as strutils" is identical to "import strutils"
22:34:58EXetoCand the qualification is optional. is it clear now?
22:35:04Jehan_import … as is just a module rename.
22:35:23dom96Jehan_: If that is how its currently implemented then I think it's wrong.
22:35:27Joe_knockAraq: Great news! Will it have a new version number too?
22:35:39Jehan_dom96: Why?
22:35:48EXetoC"import x as y as nil"? :p
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22:36:27Jehan_dom96: The "as" syntax exists to avoid problems with "import a.m, b.m"
22:36:44Jehan_Where you cannot qualify the members of either module.
22:36:44dom96Jehan_: I was under the impression that it made the import qualified.
22:36:49AraqJoe_knock: I backported most important bugfixes, so the current plan is to release Nimrod version 0.9.6 and Nim version 0.10.0 at the same time ...
22:37:07Jehan_dom96: I just tested it, so I'm pretty sure I've got it right.
22:37:09EXetoCdom96: and your suggestion would make that less ugly at least
22:37:22dom96Jehan_: I haven't so yeah lol.
22:37:49EXetoCbut forced qualification does indeed seem rare, so whatever
22:37:49Araqbut release planning is still as amateurish as ever
22:37:52JasonJAyalaPJehan_ EXetoC Ah ok, I see what I misunderstood..
22:37:57dom96But if we introduce the "import qualified foo" syntax then it will make sense.
22:38:10dom96Because then "import qualified foo as bar" will simply work.
22:38:26Joe_knockAraq: Would be great to see a move towards a stable release cycle. Perhaps 3 months stable release (or similar).
22:38:28dom96JasonJAyalaP: Sorry for the incorrect information.
22:39:06JasonJAyalaPdom96: Don't worry. I'm confusing myself plenty.
22:39:34EXetoCanything, if implemented, will indeed work :p
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22:41:46AraqJoe_knock: I agree, but every 3 months is too quickly. every 6 months seems more realistic
22:42:09Araqin fact ... we never managed more than 2 releases per year, I think
22:42:52Joe_knockAraq: Seems reasonable too. How far has the language matured in your opinion?
22:43:31Araqthe remaining bugs are horrible, but it's very rare that there is no workaround
22:44:06AraqI'm cutting features for version 1.0 so that more time is available for bug fixing
22:44:51Joe_knockAraq: I'm a bit confused now. Is 0.10.0 the final release before 1.0 or is it the 1.0?
22:45:12EXetoCworking UDTCs for 1.0 I hope
22:45:27AraqEXetoC: what's that?
22:45:34Araqoh I see
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22:46:24JasonJAyalaPJoe_knock: Version numbers are weird. 1.0.0 is the first big release, 0.56.11 comes before it
22:46:35AraqJoe_knock: it's 0.9.6 but incompatible, so it's actually 2 versions away from 1.0
22:47:09Araqbut I plan to leave out 0.9.8 and so everything will be fine .... *cough*
22:48:05Jehan_Araq: Heh. :)
22:48:52Joe_knockaah okay. Maybe 1.0 should be a 1 year release then. In those 12 months, first 6 can be used for bug-fixing and next 6 can be for improvements to 1.2/2.0?
22:49:14AraqEXetoC: I'm willing to fix 1 or 2 bugs for UDTCs but I don't think that's enough to get them into 1.0
22:49:33Jehan_Looking at the roadmap, most of the 0.9.8 stuff is more of the "nice to have" rather than "critical" variety, I'd say.
22:49:43Araqyeah
22:50:25JasonJAyalaPJehan_: One last question: Why use `as` at all? You always have access to the unqualified funcs/types.
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22:51:37Jehan_JasonJAyalaP: As I explained. If you have both import a.m and import b.m, you cannot resolve ambiguities otherwise.
22:51:47Jehan_It can also help with readability.
22:52:18JasonJAyalaPJehan_: Ah. To use the functions without qualified when there's no ambiguity, but use a short qualifier when there is
22:52:34Jehan_"a qualifier". Not necessarily a short one.
22:53:01dom96I think it would be nice if in those cases we could resolve ambiguities by writing 'a.m'
22:53:02Jehan_If both a.m and b.m define foo, there is literally no way to say which foo you want otherwise.
22:53:04dom96not just 'm'
22:53:28Jehan_Because you can't write a.m.foo or b.m.foo
22:53:48Jehan_dom96: it's a rare enough case.
22:54:37AraqJehan_: however, we really need to get .benign right
22:54:46dom96If you're one those people that likes qualified imports you will have a problem with it I think.
22:54:51Araqor else every enhancement to the effect system breaks code
22:54:52dom96*one of
22:55:06Jehan_What is .benign?
22:55:34Jehan_dom96: I'm not, so … :)
22:55:50Araqit's the same as .gcsafe but with additional constraints
22:56:00Araqthat are on purpose underspecified
22:56:02Jehan_Gotcha.
22:56:11dom96Jehan_: great :)
22:56:28dom96Araq: have you figured out a way to get rid of this gcsafe stuff yet? :P
22:57:04Araqdom96: I still think the problems are overblown, but we can disable it for --threads:off
22:57:13Araqdom96: but yes
22:57:27AraqI figured out how to make it more expressive
22:57:40Araqthe cost in complexity is high
22:57:44Araqtoo high
22:59:25dom96as long as it's not too damn high
23:00:37dom96:P
23:00:38EXetoCcramming everything into 1.0 is a little silly I guess
23:01:01Triplefoxit's very "open source" to perpetually delay 1.0
23:01:11EXetoCthough I'm sure plenty of people will just try out UDTCs becaue it's in the manual, and then complain about bugs
23:01:24dom96We could become the duke nukem of programming languages.
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23:02:02Triplefoxhas anyone ever made a promotional trailer for a programming language
23:02:15EXetoCso maybe do something about that
23:02:37AraqEXetoC: it won't stay in the manual without a big red warning
23:02:52Araqor it even will get removed
23:03:39dom96Triplefox: We should totally do that.
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23:07:23EXetoCvisit nimrod HYPEN lan NOW!
23:08:16EXetoCor lang
23:08:18EXetoCor nim
23:10:29Triplefoxmaybe more than one trailer in different styles
23:11:04Triplefoxaccording to the hr department stereotypes of "ninja" "rockstar" and "guru"
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23:25:16Joe_knockTriplefox: Normally, screencasts work better for coders.
23:27:54Jehan_Araq: You could have an "--experimental" compiler switch that is required to enable unstable features.
23:28:07Jehan_This way people won't use them by default and be surprised if they don't work.
23:29:27AraqJehan_: hmm sounds like a good idea
23:29:43AraqI don't think it'll really work, but it's worth a try
23:29:52Jehan_As for promotional trailers, there's "Erlang the Movie" and "Erlang the Movie II: The Sequel". Not sure if I'd recommend them, though.
23:30:37Jehan_Araq: Well, it's so that people can't say: "But we thought it was supposed to work."
23:30:46Joe_knockThat's the risk with a promo video. It could be "funny"/"quirky" to the regulars, but might alienate an outsider.
23:31:20Araqthere is also some bizzare python promo trailer
23:31:37Araqwhich goes on like forever
23:32:16Joe_knockAraq: link?
23:35:11AraqJoe_knock: can't find it anymore
23:35:58Joe_knockIf somebody with Adobe skills is willing, a cartoonified video might work.
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23:46:25NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 344488f Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: ttypeclasses works again
23:46:25NimBotAraq/Nimrod bigbreak 611d5d7 Araq [+0 ±3 -0]: improvements for nimfix
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23:46:36Araqdom96: here you go, but it's untested :P
23:46:42Araqhi wkoch welcome
23:47:42wkochhi
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23:50:39dom96Araq: what did you improve?
23:51:02AraqI've implemented --stylecheck:auto --onlyMainfile
23:51:22dom96ok thanks
23:51:23Araqthat should correct the identifier according to our style guides
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