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08:22:43BlaXpiritjust how many regressions can there be
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08:23:02BlaXpiriti'm tired of dealing with the BS, workaround after workaround
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08:23:40BlaXpiritplease help me with this one, can't reproduce it outside this codebase https://travis-ci.org/BlaXpirit/nim-random/jobs/85686269
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08:25:03BlaXpiritalso if someone is interested in like 3 more regressions, we found em here https://github.com/BlaXpirit/nim-random/issues/6
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09:15:51coffeepotI've got a callback proc (service main procedure) that has fixed parameters defined by windows. I want to allow a user defined hook to be called from here, but how can I access the type to call the right hook without making a single fixed global? In other languages I can make the service proc a method of a class, and the type is like a hidden param
09:15:51coffeepoteter so you can just call self.myHook or whatever. How can I do this in Nim without altering the parameters of the windows callback?
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10:01:37yglukhovBlaXpirit, is issue 6 is already fixed in Nim? Can't reproduce it
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10:10:12BlaXpirityglukhov, i couldn't reproduce the first one either
10:10:26BlaXpiriti hopefully worked around every issue now
10:11:14yglukhovi think it would be nice if you submitted an issue to nim tracker every time you need a workaround ;)
10:11:30BlaXpiritmost of these i couldn't reproduce
10:11:37BlaXpirit+ i don't care enough
10:11:48BlaXpiriti mean couldn't reproduce in an isolated example
10:11:54BlaXpirita lot of it trips because of macros
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10:14:12yglukhovok then
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10:38:15OnOAraq: where's it? I don't see any update on koch.nim
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14:47:58Araqabout the regressions. well ... the manual says you are not allowed to overload 'high' and this seems to be the problem here.
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15:32:11OnOAraq: stderr is not fully buffered because C standard says so, stderr is not part of OS but C library
15:32:39OnOso there is no point to fflush(stderr) after new line
15:33:01OnOit is just like checking pointer is if is NULL where we assigned it NULL line above
15:33:22AraqOnO: better be safe than sorry and Microsoft is free to ignore the Ansi C standard just like it is free to ignore the posix standard.
15:34:21OnOso, then is it just better to call setvbuf once at nim startup?
15:34:37OnOrather than flushing every possible writeline
15:35:44Araqthe flush is *cheap*. "Nothing to flush left? ok, nop then"
15:36:18Araqit doesn't hurt us. and most importantly. I tested it this way.
15:36:27OnOlike I said the problem was that Nim was outputting to buffered stdout, and CC was to unbuffered stderr
15:36:44OnOif Nim was outputting to stderr first place there would be not problem
15:37:11Araqthat's what you claim. I have read that stderr is *buffered* on windows.
15:37:20OnOwhere?
15:37:38Araqand note that that are at least 5 different C libraries on Windows we might end up using
15:37:46OnOit can be line-buffered
15:37:52OnOplease see setvbuf
15:38:02OnOcan be unbuffered, line-buffered, fully-buffered
15:38:15OnOC standards says stderr must NOT be fully buffered
15:38:18AraqI'm aware of what line-buffered means.
15:38:33Araqand I don't give 2 cents about what the standard says.
15:38:40OnOplease show my a stdclib that doesn't obey that they I will shut up
15:39:03Araqthe standard also says you cannot memcmp structs because these might have inaccessible holes due to alignment
15:39:20Araqwell it doesn't say that. but it should.
15:40:07OnOyou mean memcmp will segfault?
15:40:32Araqor maybe later versions of the standard now do say that. I have no time for this nonsense.
15:40:35OnOor you mean comparing junk bytes due alignment
15:40:53AraqI mean it's not clear.
15:41:43Araqstandards evolve so i stick to actual implementations. I have to, anyway.
15:42:00Araqso the standards just waste my time.
15:43:37elroodafair on windows stderr is buffered or not depending on whether goes to an interactive console or a pipe. better be safe than sorry there
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15:44:30OnOelrood: fully-buffered, or line-buffered?!
15:45:22elroodiirc fully buffered, but don't take my word for it
15:47:00OnOstderr doesn't belong to Windows, not any OS, it is part of C std library
15:48:12Araqthe C standard library has no choice but to use OS features.
15:50:44Araqif the OS does the buffering and the C library doesn't go through some extra lengths to avoid the buffering, it is buffered.
15:51:23Araqspeaking of which the C library that mingw links against is archaic.
15:52:15Araqfor reasons outlined here: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2014/04/11/10516280.aspx
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15:56:45elroodalthough it should be possible to use setvbuf to make sure windows's stderr is unbuffered in all cases. might be a more elegant solution than flushing constantly
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16:01:58OnOand btw I checked old MSVCRT.dll does buffer when stderr is sent to pipe, so you were right
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16:25:47OnOMicrosoft is really funny on pissing on these standards, but their amazing system, aka NT was designed by SCO Unix guy and has UNIX guts, covered by proprietary API
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16:45:59AraqOnO: I think that one was just an oversight. Not everybody has every letter of the standard (but then which version of it) in mind all the time.
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17:09:13elroodto be frank, there's no such thing as an oversight when implementing a standard. one look at the spec is a minimal effort compared to actually writing the code for it, and m$ has been deliberately making choices to violate standards to push their agenda. not much of an issue in this case, but nothing to take them under one's wing for either
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17:15:25Araqbut then how does the buffering of stderr fit or misfit their "agenda"?
17:16:01Araqthat the Win API is complete unlike Posix is obviously by design. but the buffering of stderr? I dunno.
17:17:05Araqand of course violations from a standard can simply be oversights.
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17:18:22elroodjust one more miniscule mosaic in a bigger picture of not caring or deliberately choosing to disregard a standard
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17:22:02Araq*shrug*. that's just the typical biased double standards. MS is evil, so everything they did was evil. Firefox is giving me 64% on this site http://css3test.com/ and it's because of other reasons, because Firefox is good.
17:24:49elroodm$ isn't evil, it's just doing what is beneficial for them as a corporation, keeping their customers in their camp. and they're doing it quite well, if a bit too obviously at times. every business with a quasi-monopoly would or perhaps should act that way to a certain extent
17:25:15elroodit's fine, but still something to complain about with a passion and a bit of tongue-in-cheek every now and then
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17:27:00OnOhere's ANSI C aka C89 std http://flash-gordon.me.uk/ansi.c.txt 4.9.3 Files says about stderr is not full-buffered, this exists also in C99 and C11
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17:27:56OnOmoreover it is still crippled in Win 10 MSVCRT.dll version, so well I dunno what MS devs are thinking
17:28:19XeOnO: they want you to only use microsoft tools
17:29:06OnOthis could be justified in Win95 or Win98, but now in 2015 it just represents their negative attitude against standards
17:30:55OnObut hey, same goes for C++11 in MSVC which is just something that they cannot make complete, even GCC and Clang did it few years ago
17:34:22elroodtalk to the right msvc devs and they'll try to convince you anything beyond C89 is witchcraft anyways ;)
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17:38:13Araqanything that came after C89 was downright criminal anyway.
17:38:32Araqso they added complex numbers but still no way to detect integer overflows?
17:38:41Araqfor a language as important as Ansi C?
17:38:57Araqthat's a much bigger "fuck you" than anything MS can dream of.
17:39:33elroodby the way, did you want to try IE on that css test, Araq? rumours are edge is performing a little better in the standards department, but still worse lacking than firefox, not to speak about chrome
17:40:12Araqelrood: no, I don't care about CSS 3. it was just the first example that came to mind.
17:43:36Araqnot to mention all the features they added to C99 just to be different from and more incompatible with C++.
17:45:09Araqheck, they even added their own crazy ideas about how overloading should work. thanks for that.
17:45:41Araqand C11's threading primitives are not Posix compatible.
17:48:08Araqwhy anybody feels obliged to implement this clusterfuck is beyond me, it's not like any compiler implemented these features. In fact, how the C standard works is backwards. It postulates new crap without any kind of reference implementation around.
17:49:24Araqiirc they also simply redefined what 'realloc' should do when it runs out of memory.
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17:55:24elroodonce you get to the language committee and working group state there's not much of a choice to make, it's either that way around or waiting for vendors to implement their own extensions, and then setting a feature-level every few years. i'm not convinced that openGL way is very preferrable in the programming domain. alternatively you could always step down, call your spec final and complete, and willingly vanish into obsolescence, of course
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17:58:46Araqafaict it works really well for the C++ standard. they have working drafts, reference implementations, actually try things out and then refine the documents
17:59:25Araqrather than postulating that _Complex is now suddenly important because Fortran has it.
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18:07:32AraqOnO: since 'echo' uses stdout and the compile-time 'echo' calls msgWriteln() your patch is still not entirely correct
18:07:44Araqbut I can merge it now and adapt it.
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18:35:03OnOAraq: I hear you. So compile time echo should go to stdout too, regardless of the anything, right? what if there's a message hook?
18:37:59Araqthe hook needs to be respected
18:38:19AraqI use it to redirect everything that comes out of the compiler
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18:40:32OnOokay, so shall msgWriteln output to stdout then? if there anything else than compile-time `echo` using it to generate diagnostics?
18:41:09AraqI think we need a stdoutWriteln just for the VM's echo that respects the hook.
18:41:27AraqI don't think there is anything else we missed.
18:41:42OnOokay
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18:54:41OnOadded to PR: compiler/vm: Use stdout too in VM time echo
18:58:18NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel af865cd Dominik Picheta [+1 ±4 -0]: Added Nim workshop banner to front page slider.
18:58:18NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 7bc49a4 Andreas Rumpf [+1 ±4 -0]: Merge pull request #3455 from nim-lang/zeo-banner... 2 more lines
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19:08:23Araqyou really want that T-shirt, don't you.
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19:10:33dom96yeah :D
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19:24:22dom96http://forum.nim-lang.org/t/1715 :)
19:38:36Araqdom96: actually I meant OnO ... ;-)
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19:42:55OnOoh what T-shirt? yeah, why not?
19:43:04nchambersI want a tshirt!
19:44:00OnOdom96: any info on accommodation in Kyiv?
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19:50:43dom96OnO: That would be something that yglukhov should add to the website I think, maybe suggest it on the forums?
19:50:59dom96Araq: hrm?
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19:51:44NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 9ef5071 Adam Strzelecki [+0 ±1 -0]: terminal: Remove superflous hStdout = conHandle... 2 more lines
19:51:44NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 2bc6acc Adam Strzelecki [+0 ±1 -0]: terminal: Support both styled stdout and stderr... 10 more lines
19:51:44NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel abb8255 Adam Strzelecki [+0 ±2 -0]: compiler/msgs: Default to stderr for diagnostics... 10 more lines
19:51:44NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 7856885 Adam Strzelecki [+0 ±2 -0]: compiler/vm: Use stdout too in VM time echo... 3 more lines
19:51:44NimBot1 more commits.
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19:55:11OnOdom96: are you coming? did you know if there are any reasonable flights from PL to Kyiv?
19:55:51OnOor you'll be flying from UK?
19:56:15dom96I would be flying from the UK
19:56:20dom96I doubt i'll be able to go.
19:57:20dom96I'm sure you can find something cheap from PL to Kyiv.
19:59:27strcmp2hum
19:59:29dom96hrm, it is on a weekend though.
19:59:30strcmp2tempting indeed
19:59:58Araqping Varriount
20:00:22Araq${support_dlls} either needs to be set in koch.nim to avoid installation problems on unix or you hardcode this instead
20:00:32Araqwhich I would prefer.
20:00:42Araqjust name it dlls.zip
20:01:46dom96argh, why is there two different spellings for Kyiv.
20:02:07strcmp2kiev is english afaik
20:02:10strcmp2and kyiv ukranian
20:02:48AraqYuriy said "kiev" is deprecated
20:02:55Araqand "kyiv" to be used now
20:03:11dom96Airlines can't even spell it properly it seems.
20:03:16strcmp2lol
20:03:40strcmp2dom96: did u meet federico3 yet
20:03:52dom96nope :/
20:03:55federico3nope
20:03:58strcmp2ah ok
20:04:06dom96And I was actually in Dublin last Wednesday
20:04:13NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel d1ae1cb Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: fixes installation problems on unix by hardcoding the dlls.zip name
20:04:19federico3boo dom96
20:04:38AraqVarriount: changed it for you for now, feel free to override it with another PR
20:04:52dom96strcmp2: did you meet federico3?
20:05:08strcmp2also nope, and I'm in dublin everyday =]
20:05:14Araqwait
20:05:23Araqis it "Kiyv" or "Kyiv"?
20:05:37federico3but you are not on this channel frequently, strcmp2?
20:05:39strcmp2never saw "kiyv" before, i believe latter
20:05:50Araqdamn.
20:05:51strcmp2federico3: im here whenever my irc client is on, yes
20:06:03federico3where you strcmp1 before?
20:06:06strcmp2ya
20:06:16strcmp2the num changes depending on how crap my connection is
20:06:36dom96Y'all need a BNC
20:06:42strcmp2indeed
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20:07:45Araqdamn I mispelt it on the website -.-
20:07:49strcmp2lol
20:08:39Araqoh well. new deploy. how embarrassing.
20:09:08Araqsee? this is why should never write a text with crying children in the background
20:12:45reactormonkAraq, gotta turn up the background music.
20:12:48strcmp2heh i wouldn't worry about it
20:13:15Araqso... I fixed it
20:14:15NimBotnim-lang/Nim devel 0586cee Araq [+0 ±1 -0]: fixed the most embarrassing typo in the history of Nim
20:14:25strcmp2didn't seem wrong anyway: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Kiyv
20:15:36Araqoh god, don't tell me now it's wrong.
20:16:00strcmp2aha no, all three spellings appear to be correct.
20:16:09Araqit's Kiew. should have used the German spelling.
20:16:12strcmp2kyiv is the one i see used most often
20:17:19strcmp2and a fourth variation: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Kyyiv
20:17:28strcmp2hard to typo that city when it has so many names
20:19:19Araqindeed.
20:19:27Araqno wonder I got it wrong :P
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21:11:51AraqOnO: btw you can enforce named parameters in a macro since that can inspect the calling context.
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21:21:52onionhammerKiev is the english name
21:21:54onionhammer:p
21:22:04onionhammerthe rest of the sentence is english
21:22:29Araqyuiy said Kiev is racist.
21:22:36onionhammerwhosat
21:22:45AraqYuriy.
21:22:59onionhammer..
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21:27:30strcmp2maybe because of "chicken kiev" but to say the english spelling of a city is racist sounds nuts :)
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21:27:53onionhammeryum i love chicken kiev
21:27:59strcmp2me too
21:28:25Araqhrm... apparently irony is really hard to grasp on IRC.
21:28:34Araqof course he didn't say this.
21:28:52onionhammeri think he did
21:28:59onionhammerstop covering for him
21:29:37Araq"Kiev is legacy spelling from soviet times."
21:30:08Araqthat's what he really said. Source? private skype chat.
21:30:16strcmp2i see, yes, better to use kyiv then so you don't step on any toes.
21:30:45Araqdunno, Kiev is way easier to remember and write.
21:31:09Araqwho cares if the soviets used it. I bet they also used toilet paper.
21:31:18strcmp2kiev is how i know the city too but in current climate its probably not nice to associate the city with russia/soviet union
21:31:27onionhammerthe russian toilet paper situation is pretty dire, frmo everything i've heard
21:32:42Araqif it really bothers them, they could have renamed the city.
21:33:00Araqnot come up with 3 new alternative spellings to confuse everybody.
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