| 00:01:55 | libman | AHHHHHH - http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Apache-2-Still-Coming |
| 00:02:31 | * | libman takes out his wakizashi... |
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| 00:14:19 | libman | This could completely kill my dream of a purist Copyfree BSD distro with Nim userland. :( |
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| 02:04:53 | nimnoob123 | hey, is there a way to load dll's from a sub folder? |
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| 02:42:15 | nimnoob123 | does --path/p work? I tried doing --p:"./bin" and it couldn't find SDL2.dll :/ |
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| 03:36:31 | ftsf_ | hmm building SDL2 apps for emscripten seems to fail on 0.14.2, due to conflicting types for SDL_* functions. N_NIMCALL(Sdlreturn146039, SDL_Init)(int flags0) is defined in the nimapp.c file as well as SDL.h |
| 03:36:59 | ftsf_ | can test with https://github.com/def-/nimes.git and nake web |
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| 04:25:26 | mogu | I've smelled 0.15.0. :D |
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| 05:01:50 | FromGitter | <nigredo-tori> Shouldn't `NIM_BOOL` use `_Bool` as underlying type if available? |
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| 07:13:57 | Quantum | After static[T] implemented properly, will we have Nim 1.0? |
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| 07:15:40 | Araq | I think so. |
| 07:15:43 | FromGitter | <endragor> Quantum: what will the version tag change for you? |
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| 07:16:05 | Quantum | I don't like beta! |
| 07:17:05 | Raaaa | alpha sounds better |
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| 07:24:54 | FromGitter | <endragor> in my opinion, v0.x is better than v1.x on a language/stdlib that feels unpolished/immature. I don’t understand this race for v1.0, I don’t think it’s going to change much community-wise. node.js was v0.x for years and **many** people, including the biggest companies, used it in production. it’s not the version tag that matters. Nim should reserve the possibility to change for as much as possible. |
| 07:26:28 | BlaXpirit | /agree |
| 07:26:56 | gokr | I agreee too - but at the same time I would like to know what the "main focus areas" are |
| 07:28:14 | gokr | BlaXpirit: Btw, did you start using Crystal or? Just curious if you did and what your impression is |
| 07:28:30 | Raaaa | mmm, but i don't think we should compare the potential community of nim vs node.js, don't you agree? |
| 07:28:44 | Raaaa | many people have expressed they need stability |
| 07:28:52 | BlaXpirit | gokr, i don't wanna rant :p |
| 07:29:03 | Araq | I disagree wrt 1.0 |
| 07:29:29 | Araq | the successful languages all started with 1.0 being crappy. C#, Java, Python |
| 07:29:31 | gokr | BlaXpirit: Ranting is fine by me :) |
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| 07:29:55 | Araq | gokr, BlaXpirit please do this per PM or #nim-offtopic |
| 07:30:08 | gokr | Sure, #nim-offtopic |
| 07:30:10 | Araq | the v1 discussion is more important :-) |
| 07:30:16 | gokr | yup |
| 07:30:29 | Araq | I don't even know what Python 1.0 looked like. |
| 07:30:38 | Araq | I started with Python 2.1 iirc |
| 07:30:45 | gokr | Hehe, Java 1.0 .... oooh... |
| 07:31:06 | Araq | C# 1, too, lacked generics. |
| 07:31:13 | BlaXpirit | i think the main thing about python 1 was that "everything is an object" was not well fleshed out, that's why historically functions like `len` have resided outside of objects |
| 07:32:16 | flyx | well we could do what node.js did and just start with v4 or something. |
| 07:33:04 | Araq | Rust lacks/lacked higher kinded types, comparable to Nim's concept situation |
| 07:33:18 | Araq | Rust shipped v1 anyway |
| 07:33:19 | cheatfate | compiler is looks stable enough to be called 1.0, GC is less stable, but stdlib is unstable :) |
| 07:33:48 | FromGitter | <endragor> Araq: well it depends on what you put into “v1.0”. Will you be fine with releasing v2.0 half year later after v1.0? C# is now in a more advanced state than Java because it didn’t care about v1.x backward compatibility, like Java did (and still does). |
| 07:34:44 | Araq | well if we assume major versions can break things, there is no need to be overly concerned |
| 07:36:23 | Araq | v1.0 should be the "minimum viable product", in general, in my opinion. |
| 07:36:44 | Araq | for Nim this MVP ship has sailed, too bad I didn't know the term years ago ;-) |
| 07:37:32 | Araq | but that doesn't mean v1.0 needs to be complete either. |
| 07:39:41 | Araq | cheatfate: stdlib for v1 will likely get stability annotations and yet more stuff will move to nimble packages |
| 07:45:57 | FromGitter | <endragor> I think people would have worse opinion about a language if they see v1.x tag on top of something that *feels* unstable/immature (I certainly would). Java/C# started 16-17 years ago, bars were different back then :-P And most will judge by stdlib, they would assume that compiler/GC must work correctly. |
| 07:46:27 | Quantum | My mission with Nim will be big, OS project |
| 07:46:37 | Quantum | So yeah, stability matters |
| 07:46:55 | Quantum | for that big project |
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| 07:58:52 | Raaaa | https://blog.golang.org/go-version-1-is-released |
| 07:58:56 | Raaaa | https://blog.rust-lang.org/2015/05/15/Rust-1.0.html |
| 07:59:09 | Raaaa | For go: "The driving motivation for Go 1 is stability for its users. People who write Go 1 programs can be confident that those programs will continue to compile and run without change, in many environments, on a time scale of years." |
| 07:59:25 | Raaaa | And for Rust: "This release is the official beginning of our commitment to stability, and as such it offers a firm foundation for building applications and libraries." |
| 07:59:38 | Raaaa | v1 means different things for different langauges |
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| 08:08:29 | Salewski | Araq, is it ok to start nimsuggest process with a nonexistent dummy file parameter? |
| 08:08:36 | Salewski | That would be useful if the editor is startet without file arguments. |
| 08:08:44 | Salewski | Otherwise I would have to delay creation of nimsuggest process until user has typed in some nim code, |
| 08:08:52 | Salewski | or I would have to create a dummy file on disk, which is overwritten soon. |
| 08:08:59 | Salewski | I think nimsuggest should accept nonexistent file -- better even missing file argument at startup. |
| 08:09:06 | Salewski | Currently nimsuggest complains with Error: cannot open 'dummy.nim' but it seems to work. |
| 08:09:41 | Araq | once the dependency graph evaluation is fixed/rewritten I can answer this question |
| 08:10:15 | Araq | for now I consider it dangerous to allow this and almost no other IDE supports this "just ask about any file on hard disk" |
| 08:12:09 | Salewski | What do you do for your nimedit when user starts it with no file argument? Delay creation of nimsuggest process? |
| 08:12:40 | Araq | I create nimsuggest on first attempt to autocomplete |
| 08:13:07 | Salewski | Ok, then I will do the same. Thanks. |
| 08:13:22 | cheatfate | but this will make a big lag |
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| 08:14:21 | NoGPLPlease | So how good Nim is for OS development when compared to other langs? |
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| 08:16:23 | Salewski | cheatfate: This is only for the case when editor is started with no file argument. When file argument is available, there is no problem, I start nimsuggest immedeately. |
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| 08:18:54 | Salewski | Bye... |
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| 09:26:43 | NoGPLPlease | Araq, just fuck you, you stupid idoit fucking bitch. You fucking hippo |
| 09:26:59 | NoGPLPlease | Araq, am gonna wet your sisters pussy |
| 09:27:17 | NoGPLPlease | Araq, am gonna multi penetrate her budy with my friends |
| 09:27:31 | NoGPLPlease | Araq, you fucking bitch |
| 09:28:25 | NoGPLPlease | cheatfate, am gonna fuck your sisters pussy too, am gonna wet it by my flexible dick, you fucking bitch |
| 09:28:40 | NoGPLPlease | cheatfate, FUCK YOU BITCH |
| 09:28:42 | NoGPLPlease | FUCK U |
| 09:28:46 | NoGPLPlease | fuck u all |
| 09:28:53 | NoGPLPlease | Balblablablalabalav |
| 09:28:53 | NoGPLPlease | c |
| 09:28:54 | NoGPLPlease | D |
| 09:28:54 | NoGPLPlease | D |
| 09:28:54 | NoGPLPlease | d |
| 09:28:54 | NoGPLPlease | D |
| 09:28:54 | NoGPLPlease | d |
| 09:28:55 | NoGPLPlease | d |
| 09:28:55 | NoGPLPlease | d |
| 09:28:55 | NoGPLPlease | d |
| 09:28:55 | NoGPLPlease | d |
| 09:28:56 | NoGPLPlease | d |
| 09:28:56 | NoGPLPlease | d |
| 09:28:57 | NoGPLPlease | d |
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| 09:33:57 | Araq | lesson learned. if you wanna +q somebody, don't hesitate. |
| 09:41:14 | Raaaa | didn't dom contacted with an irc operator? |
| 09:41:32 | flyx | I know this already was suggested, but could we just ban the webchat? people without an IRC client can join via Gitter now. |
| 09:43:10 | flyx | Raaaa: what could be done against it? it is not possible to identify this person if he joins via webchat. |
| 09:43:48 | Raaaa | That's a good question, i only know he was around here, idle. |
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| 09:44:49 | flyx | I mean, we *could* get his IP address if the webchat had logs, and then would *could* try law enforcement options… nothing I would waste my time upon. |
| 09:45:05 | flyx | *we |
| 09:45:41 | Raaaa | cheatfate says he uses proxy, but i don't think we should discuss this on public, because reading the aftermath is probably what he wants. |
| 09:46:26 | flyx | agreed. |
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| 10:01:17 | FromGitter | <dom96> fuchs: ^^ |
| 10:02:02 | FromGitter | <dom96> Araq: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/IRC-guidelines#get-in-touch-with-freenode-staff |
| 10:03:08 | FromGitter | <dom96> If this happens again, please message one of Freenode's staff. |
| 10:03:24 | FromGitter | <dom96> (just pick someone from ``/stats p``) |
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| 10:15:14 | Fuchs | *sigh* |
| 10:17:49 | Fuchs | Araq: sorry, was having lunch. Yeah, I'll stay in here and see what hosts he turns up again with, then we see what action is best suited to counter it |
| 10:18:41 | Fuchs | what you could do, instead of banning webchat, is forwarding webchat users to a different channel or setting a quiet on them, so that (by default) they can't write (until an operator sort of approves by voicing them or setting an exception). These might be options you want to consider, let me know if I can help you with them |
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| 10:29:21 | FromGitter | <dom96> Fuchs: ooh, I didn't realise we could redirect webchat users to a different channel. I think that might be the best option (unless you think we should do something else?), how do we set this up? |
| 10:30:57 | Fuchs | dom96: you can set up a so called forward ban, syntax is /mode #channel +b nick!ident@host$##otherchannel. You probably want that to be *!*@gateway/web/* and maybe make the forward channel #nim-web or something that is under your control, then place an op or two in it to make sure that valid users are heard (or put information in the topic on how to bypass that) |
| 10:31:35 | Fuchs | so e.g. register #nim-web and then op up, /mode #nim +b *!*@gateway/web/*$#nim-web << that should do the trick |
| 10:32:02 | Fuchs | other options (all with their up and downsides) is to make the channel for registered users only (I discourage that a bit) |
| 10:32:12 | Fuchs | or quieting unregistered users (same) |
| 10:33:30 | FromGitter | <dom96> Yeah, I dislike channels that do that. |
| 10:33:37 | FromGitter | <dom96> I'll set up the forward once I get home, thanks! |
| 10:34:05 | Fuchs | you're welcome, feel free to poke me or one of my colleagues (I informed them about the spam) if you need assistance |
| 10:35:10 | FromGitter | <dom96> will do :) |
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| 12:44:42 | arnetheduck | Araq, ping |
| 12:45:18 | Araq | pong |
| 12:45:33 | arnetheduck | so, any good ideas for the abi compatibility..? |
| 12:47:46 | arnetheduck | also, any planned alignment annotations? something like c alignas? |
| 12:49:34 | arnetheduck | another problem with the approach in the patch (named fields) is that it won't work for musl and other alternative c libs, whereas a buffer with a size would work.. an annotation that disables rtti (or at least offsetof) could also work |
| 12:50:16 | Araq | we need to figure out why RTTI is used for these in the first place |
| 12:51:15 | arnetheduck | another alternative is to remove the .header: completely - that'll work, but any compiler-specific tricks in the header that the c compiler can use will be gone of course |
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| 12:54:04 | arnetheduck | well, they're directly exposed to the user through core/locks.nim - as such there's always a risk of rtti |
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| 14:02:45 | cheatfate | Araq, is it possible to add option to GC to zero memory before releasing? |
| 14:03:46 | Araq | yup, mmdisp.nim overwriteFree constant |
| 14:03:56 | Araq | it sets it to -1 though iirc |
| 14:06:15 | cheatfate | nice could i make PR to make it not const value but `defined` value? |
| 14:08:26 | FromGitter | <Araq> sure |
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| 14:12:56 | cheatfate | Araq, i think `overwriteFree` is too long define, can i call it `burnFree` or `rewriteFree`, or you have your own variant? |
| 14:15:30 | Araq | you need to do it this way anyway : overwriteFree = defined(burnFree) |
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| 14:17:07 | cheatfate | Araq, yeah but i know but want to know what name will be nice :) |
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| 14:17:42 | Araq | nimOverwriteFree |
| 14:18:46 | cheatfate | `-d:nimOverwriteFree` looks even longer and why `nim` prefix? |
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| 14:21:47 | cheatfate | Araq, maybe `-d:gcOverwriteFree`? |
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| 14:23:00 | cheatfate | oops, this is not only for gc alloced memory will be processed in such way too |
| 14:28:37 | FromGitter | <endragor> `deallocOverwrite` would sound more clear imo |
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| 15:48:48 | NimWolf | Hi! What's the difference of *% and * operator? |
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| 15:56:19 | def- | NimWolf: The % operators are from a time long forgotten when Nim did not support unsigned integers. They consider signed ints as unsigned ones and perform an unsigned operation |
| 15:57:13 | NimWolf | ok, thx. I saw it in a prime number sieve on Rosetta Code. |
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| 16:03:31 | def- | that should probably be changed to use unsigned ints then, if alone to prevent confusion |
| 16:05:19 | NimWolf | btw, the prime number sieve crashes when running a debug build |
| 16:05:24 | def- | that's bad |
| 16:05:34 | NimWolf | a release build runs well |
| 16:05:51 | def- | the release build *seems* to run well because it doesn't check, probably |
| 16:07:01 | NimWolf | i see, i read in the manual that the countup iterator isn't safe when using high int's |
| 16:07:34 | def- | var is_cmpsts = newSeq[bool](limit + 2) |
| 16:07:36 | def- | that fixes the code |
| 16:08:07 | def- | but it's not very nice code, I'll try to write a new version if i have some time |
| 16:08:09 | NimWolf | cool, I fixed whith limit instead of limit+1 in the inner for loop |
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| 16:51:22 | dom96 | There we go, the spammer shouldn't bother us here no more. |
| 16:51:35 | dom96 | For anybody interested in conversing with webchat users: #nim-web |
| 16:51:56 | dom96 | Fuchs: You might also want to idle there to get a better idea about the spammer. |
| 16:52:27 | Fuchs | dom96: I'll place my client in it an detach, yes. If he has a wide variety of hosts, there isn't that much we can do |
| 16:52:53 | Fuchs | but sounds like a good solution so far, let me know if you run into other issues :) |
| 16:53:06 | dom96 | Fuchs: alright, no problem. Yeah, this solution should work well. |
| 16:54:16 | Fuchs | looks good, I'll part this one here then and idle in the other, feel free to poke us if you need anything else :) |
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| 17:51:16 | flyx | I see that the stdlib never uses nested packages. are they discouraged for some reason? |
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| 17:51:44 | cheatfate | `nested packages` what does it mean? |
| 17:53:05 | BlaXpirit | cheatfate, namespaced |
| 17:53:13 | flyx | e.g. I could change my yaml package to expose parts of its features in `yaml.parser`, `yaml.serialization` and so on |
| 17:53:15 | BlaXpirit | a/b/c versus a_b_c or whatever |
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| 17:56:31 | flyx | this is in use in almost every programming language I know, and I wonder why it isn't a thing in Nim (although the compiler seems to support it) |
| 17:56:46 | dom96 | flyx: Araq has a distaste for hierarchy |
| 17:56:56 | dom96 | feel free to use it in your nimble package |
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| 18:03:41 | cheatfate | dom96, why we need enabled webirc if you already have this gitter `trojan`? :) |
| 18:04:26 | dom96 | because some genuine users might prefer it |
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| 18:18:40 | Araq | I still have nightmares from System.Text.RegularExpression.Regex |
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| 18:19:06 | Araq | maybe it's time to move on and allow more dots but then the dots don't do what you might think they do |
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| 20:10:32 | ldlework | Nim makes it kind of hard to have nested packages in the first place |
| 20:10:46 | ldlework | let alone making them usable as libraries |
| 20:11:12 | libman | Maybe some things should be hard. |
| 20:11:21 | ldlework | As soon as you take a type or something else and move it into a different file, everything becomes substantially more annoying |
| 20:11:29 | ldlework | libman: yeah that's ... compelling |
| 20:11:48 | libman | Discipline is essential for achieving quality. |
| 20:12:08 | ldlework | What does that have to do with something being supported but hard to use? |
| 20:12:15 | ldlework | What does discipline have to do with that |
| 20:12:22 | libman | Plenty of other languages out there that make it easy for you to pile crap a mile high and have it collapse all over you. |
| 20:12:51 | ldlework | I wonder who you think highly values this kind of vacuous facile platitudes |
| 20:13:42 | * | libman enjoys them. |
| 20:13:51 | ldlework | libman: I recommend a blog |
| 20:14:01 | ldlework | or a diary |
| 20:14:08 | libman | Wiser words have not been spoken. |
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| 20:16:45 | flyx | I restructured my yaml module and it was actually pretty easy to move stuff in nested packages |
| 20:17:47 | ldlework | You're right, there's literally nothing difficult or obtuse about the package system, I've just imagined it. |
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| 21:42:14 | * | libman is still boo-hoo-hooing about LLVM switching licenses, and how this would affect Nim (at least among the Copyfree license purists, to whom I've been promoting Nim as our champion). |
| 21:43:05 | libman | This hurts many of Nim's competitors (especially Rust and Julia, but not Go) more than it hurts Nim. |
| 21:43:35 | sp33der89 | I haven't read that yet |
| 21:43:45 | libman | I am wondering if it can now be argued that Nim is a more viable Copyfree language than writing in C/C++ directly. |
| 21:44:01 | libman | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Apache-2-Still-Coming |
| 21:44:13 | sp33der89 | thanks gonna read it |
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| 21:44:41 | libman | It's been up in the air for a year now, and I thought it went away, but apparently not. |
| 21:44:51 | sp33der89 | an OSS license attorney |
| 21:45:01 | sp33der89 | never knew those existed |
| 21:45:45 | * | libman is all about the long-term fantasy of a pure copyfree OS and software stack, for servers as well as clients (android replacement), with the userland written in a modern language like Nim or Go. |
| 21:46:46 | libman | Someday we will chase the lawyers and socialist ideologues out of the temple of Free Software, and there will be no licenses to worry about, just a common ethic of "don't sue me, don't claim you wrote it". |
| 21:47:53 | libman | LLVM/Clang switching licenses would hit our "copyfree OS" dreams quite hard... |
| 21:49:13 | libman | But this can also be an opportunity for Nim. Like I said, it totally destroys Rust and Julia, but Nim can work with PCC... |
| 21:50:37 | sp33der89 | redux os(the one OS written in Rust) is MIT |
| 21:50:58 | sp33der89 | dunno if it uses LLVM |
| 21:51:56 | libman | Rust is married to LLVM, so anything based on Rust is no longer kosher due to dependencies. |
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| 21:52:34 | sp33der89 | doesn't have a GCC target too? |
| 21:52:38 | libman | Nim targeting CLR would improve its Copyfreeness. |
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| 21:53:24 | libman | rustc uses LLVM as its back end. |
| 21:56:03 | libman | Our hypothetical "copyfree OS" project (BSD distro) would stay with the last version of LLVM/Clang before the license change. I wonder if using Nim will delay the disadvantages of that arrested development. |
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