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| 11:30:21 | Enamex | Is there anything I can read about Nim's implementation of iterators in C? |
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| 11:45:07 | Araq | Enamex: inline iterators are always inlined, there is nothing in C left, closure iterators produce a state machine with switch and gotos |
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| 12:20:00 | jikai | Does nim have the coroutine? |
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| 12:23:23 | dom96 | jikai: yeah |
| 12:23:42 | dom96 | closure iterators are kind of coroutines and then there is also the coro module which implements full coroutines IIRC |
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| 12:25:15 | jikai | which module |
| 12:25:31 | federico3 | dom96: what's the difference between "full" corouties and iterators? |
| 12:27:16 | dom96 | federico3: not really sure heh |
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| 12:30:43 | Araq | federico3: in full coroutines 'yield' is not bound to an iterator scope |
| 12:31:53 | Araq | this has deep implications. |
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| 12:32:50 | Araq | it means that a complete stack can be resumed, in other words, coroutines support recursion, iterators do not |
| 12:33:26 | jikai | Does nim fit for web develop? |
| 12:33:40 | jikai | I have learn it just one day |
| 12:33:57 | jikai | but I think it a really good language than go |
| 12:37:52 | reactormonk | jikai, just one day for a whole language seems a bit little |
| 12:38:11 | coffeepot | jikai: There is jester https://github.com/dom96/jester and emerald https://flyx.github.io/emerald/index.html for starters |
| 12:38:18 | Araq | jikai: thanks. :-) we do support async IO and Nim's forum runs on it |
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| 12:41:44 | jikai | ok, thanks for your resource. Maybe I should learn all language firstly thant I can deep these |
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| 14:52:04 | coffeepot | Is it not possible to create a thread suspended? |
| 14:52:46 | coffeepot | with the current stdlib i mean |
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| 14:54:35 | Araq | coffeepot: nah, we kept the API simple. |
| 14:54:44 | Araq | PRs are welcome |
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| 14:54:55 | coffeepot | ok, fair enough |
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| 15:31:07 | kashyap_ | Hi ... I am running into compilation error - \stdlib_system.c:7061:41: error: '__ATOMIC_RELAXED' undeclared (first use in this function) when I try to compile a program with threads on windows |
| 15:32:42 | kashyap_ | Is this a known issue ... I am using the latest dev build of nim |
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| 15:34:41 | reactormonk | kashyap_, check the issues, otherwise not. |
| 15:35:40 | kashyap_ | okay ... I am trying the example in threads doc ... I'll check with the issues ... |
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| 15:36:49 | reactormonk | kashyap_, https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/2620 |
| 15:37:05 | reactormonk | kashyap_, upgrade your gcc |
| 15:37:37 | kashyap_ | thanks reactormonk .... I should've checked the issues first |
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| 15:47:05 | coffeepot | so threads module has a function that gets the 'threadId', but this is the address of the thread, and though it stores the handle in Thread.sys, it seems you cannot access this? |
| 15:48:00 | coffeepot | doesn't seem like it's possible to get the thread handle unless I write my own thread wrapper |
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| 15:51:51 | Araq | coffeepot: just patch system/systhreads |
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| 15:54:19 | coffeepot | I can see why it's like this - because only windows uses the handles, but yeah might make a PR to access Thread.sys at least |
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| 17:58:26 | indiagreen | is there a way to make asynchttpserver use several threads? Or maybe there's some another httpserver library that is multithreaded? (Also, while I'm at it: does this bug seem familiar to anyone or should I report it? http://lpaste.net/141483) |
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| 18:15:49 | Araq | indiagreen: check out Göran's blog, it outlines a basic multi-threaded server that uses nim's spawn |
| 18:16:38 | Araq | multi-threaded asynchttpserver is in the works but afaict the people who can do it have lots of other things to do |
| 18:17:05 | Araq | so help if you're intestered or live with multi *processing* ;-) |
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| 19:20:40 | monikers | does this lang compile to executable binary natively on OS X / Win / Linux? |
| 19:21:05 | monikers | is it a good lang to begin with for a complete noob to programming itself? |
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| 19:24:23 | Araq | hi monikers yes and I truely hope so |
| 19:25:29 | monikers | What do you hope so? |
| 19:25:43 | monikers | What do you think about it in comparison with C (C11) ?? |
| 19:25:47 | monikers | for a complete beginner? |
| 19:25:59 | monikers | given the material available for both? |
| 19:26:13 | Araq | there is no comparison to C11, Nim is hands down easier to use |
| 19:27:31 | Araq | the existing material is sufficient for beginners |
| 19:31:27 | Araq | Nim is a power tool but in my humble opinion it's still accessible enough for progamming beginners. |
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| 19:59:56 | monikers | Araq, Which book do you suggest? |
| 20:00:15 | monikers | but there is not even a package in Debian? |
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| 20:07:51 | softinio | @monikers there is no book on nim yet. If you want to learn it this is a good starting point: http://nim-lang.org/learn.html |
| 20:08:32 | softinio | @monikers Instructions for installing nim is here: http://nim-lang.org/download.html |
| 20:08:59 | softinio | and off course get help here or http://nim-lang.org/community.html |
| 20:09:03 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 925e7b0 Peter Mora [+1 ±1 -0]: fixing TypelessParam warning in x=>x+1, added test |
| 20:09:03 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 5e390dc Andreas Rumpf [+1 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #3361 from petermora/fixTypelessWarningInFuture... 2 more lines |
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| 20:11:59 | monikers | softinio, so how is it better than C? |
| 20:12:06 | monikers | since it is trying to be to be better? |
| 20:13:08 | monikers | I mean it says "It is almost C like but better than others" |
| 20:13:15 | monikers | What exactly is better? |
| 20:13:23 | softinio | @monikers C & Nim are different programming languages. Its more the case of your preference or taste on which one you currently prefer to use |
| 20:14:01 | monikers | What do you recommend to a complete newbie to programming? |
| 20:14:06 | softinio | I learnt to program in C in 1989, one thing I can tell you from my many years experience is that the learning curve for nim is shorter than C |
| 20:14:07 | monikers | I think nim looks fine too |
| 20:14:34 | softinio | Also the time it takes for me to code is definitely longer in C than nim |
| 20:14:45 | softinio | but I would not say one is better than the other |
| 20:14:52 | softinio | for sure C has been around longer |
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| 20:16:02 | softinio | what programming language you want to use is a very personal taste. why don't you set yourself a small project and write them in the different languages you are considering and then decide which one you enjoyed more |
| 20:17:09 | reactormonk | softinio, nim offers more features than C, and a usable type system, which is something that can help you a lot. But there's more software around for C, which emulates nims type system to a certain degree. |
| 20:17:21 | monikers | I really want to learn code to develop small cli / gui programs that works out of the box |
| 20:17:29 | monikers | and compiles natively |
| 20:17:39 | softinio | @reactormonk I agree with you |
| 20:18:06 | monikers | I think C could be good as well but it is more complex and I don't know what to do anymore |
| 20:18:11 | reactormonk | monikers, I'd say nim is the better language, but you'll find much more resources with C. On the other hand, you can learn how to translate C code to nim. |
| 20:18:39 | monikers | I wish we had an official book on NIM |
| 20:18:57 | reactormonk | monikers, just gotta kick dom96 for a draft |
| 20:19:19 | monikers | we need a official book for beginners |
| 20:19:38 | monikers | because Docs can only be followed by people who know stuff |
| 20:19:40 | monikers | not by all |
| 20:19:44 | elrood | to be honest, that's not necessarily a great idea for a fairly recent and rapidly evolving language |
| 20:20:36 | monikers | omg |
| 20:20:41 | monikers | so it is not even stable yet right? |
| 20:20:50 | monikers | it has been in the game for 7 yrs now?? |
| 20:20:51 | monikers | :) |
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| 20:21:54 | softinio | Like @reactormonk said C certainly more complex even with lots of books on the topic |
| 20:22:03 | reactormonk | monikers, yeah, but not been developed by a great many people. |
| 20:22:07 | reactormonk | monikers, I started with ruby. |
| 20:22:27 | elrood | 7 years is next to nothing for a new language. eg, the books that had been written for D (about when it was at the same age, give or take) were by and large hopelessly out of date just a few months after their release. it's pretty much just an abuse of dead trees |
| 20:22:29 | softinio | @monikers maybe you should consider starting with ruby or python |
| 20:23:30 | reactormonk | monikers, although I like a good type system, so I'm not sure I'd recommend ruby or python... |
| 20:23:57 | reactormonk | monikers, http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters |
| 20:24:20 | indiagreen | ehhh, I wouldn't recommend Haskell, despite it being my main language |
| 20:24:38 | reactormonk | indiagreen, ^^ |
| 20:24:46 | reactormonk | indiagreen, you working with haskell professionally? |
| 20:25:40 | indiagreen | semi-professionally (been hobbying around for 6 years, found a job a year ago) |
| 20:26:19 | reactormonk | neat. |
| 20:28:11 | indiagreen | #nimsuccessstories: had to write a small script to analyse several GBs of data, spent 2d optimising the Haskell version, had to resort to unboxed values and my own vector type at the end, then stumbled upon Nim and was able to rewrite it in a day. The resulting version was 5× faster. |
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| 20:29:42 | monikers | wow |
| 20:29:43 | monikers | :) |
| 20:30:15 | monikers | guys the real reason I am not using a Interpreted lang is because I would only like to use a compiled lang |
| 20:30:18 | monikers | the question is why? |
| 20:30:29 | indiagreen | yeah, why? |
| 20:30:36 | softinio | I looked at Haskell didn't enjoy it |
| 20:30:49 | softinio | nim is excellent |
| 20:31:57 | monikers | It is easiest and fastest way to share an executable with friends and fam.. for example if we had to develop a small pass gen from a bash script so that it works out of the box without any lib required .. I learned it is possible if we use statically linked binaries .. it should just work then |
| 20:32:24 | monikers | I would say if you use a compiled lang you can deploy your own applications in like 2 days |
| 20:32:33 | monikers | it would be working on your friend's system tomorrow |
| 20:32:41 | monikers | I am a hobbyist |
| 20:33:00 | monikers | and now all of sudden I want to develop programs :) |
| 20:33:09 | monikers | I am learning Bash as well |
| 20:33:19 | indiagreen | monikers: http://www.py2exe.org/index.cgi/FAQ |
| 20:33:23 | monikers | my other reason for joining this channel is = Binary size |
| 20:34:04 | monikers | I know about py2exe but .. but it is not like it works out of the box .. Python itself don't claim to be a compiled lang |
| 20:34:09 | monikers | which just sucks |
| 20:34:39 | monikers | i did a lot of research |
| 20:34:49 | monikers | haskell / rust / nim / c |
| 20:34:54 | monikers | were the last options |
| 20:35:15 | monikers | Rust's syntax is scary |
| 20:35:28 | dom96 | indiagreen: nice! |
| 20:35:32 | monikers | if there was that Haskellbook ready I won't be there right now |
| 20:35:43 | monikers | so only options left out are C and nim |
| 20:36:04 | monikers | syntax is good .. |
| 20:36:12 | indiagreen | I can relate to liking compiled langs and small binaries, but after several years of coding the feeling pretty much disappeared (on the other hand, it's not like learning a 2nd language will be that hard, so maybe you should go for a compiled lang after all if it's what will make you happy at the moment) |
| 20:37:34 | elrood | there is a reason we are here, most of us would recommend to give nim a try, it's a nice, modern language with a performant implementation. but if you need something which is readily provided by your package-manager, with a large community, books and ready-to-use libraries for all imaginable needs it might not be the perfect fit |
| 20:39:02 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 31bb431 Aman Gupta [+0 ±4 -0]: s/Github/GitHub/g |
| 20:39:02 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 514edf3 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±4 -0]: Merge pull request #3362 from tmm1/github-capitalization... 2 more lines |
| 20:39:17 | reactormonk | eh. |
| 20:39:51 | dom96 | yeah, I merged it as you commented heh |
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| 20:40:28 | tmm1 | i looked for a reference and didn't see one |
| 20:41:04 | tmm1 | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/tools/website.tmpl#L141-145 should continue to work |
| 20:43:21 | monikers | I just gulped like three bananas out of starvation :) |
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| 20:43:33 | monikers | Anyways I am download nim |
| 20:43:43 | softinio | @monikers I prefer nim. If you want something with more books and docs have a look at golang |
| 20:43:57 | monikers | golang's syntax is pretty scary to me |
| 20:43:59 | dom96 | tmm1: yep. Looks good. |
| 20:44:37 | dom96 | monikers: Will Nim be your first programming language? |
| 20:44:45 | monikers | yep |
| 20:44:52 | monikers | I am doing some bash now |
| 20:44:53 | monikers | :) |
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| 20:45:25 | monikers | dom96, C or Nim - I am a hobbyist |
| 20:45:38 | monikers | I would develop small cli / gui apps only for friends and family and my own use |
| 20:45:54 | monikers | like small programs that calculates taxes etc |
| 20:45:59 | dom96 | it seems like you already have at least some knowledge of programming languages |
| 20:46:03 | dom96 | so you're not a complete beginner |
| 20:46:11 | monikers | I am a complete beginner |
| 20:46:21 | monikers | but my problem is dig so deep that I see it all clear |
| 20:46:29 | monikers | I use Debian witn Main repo only |
| 20:46:39 | monikers | I use Free/Libre Software only strictly |
| 20:46:49 | monikers | I switched from Windows like 9 months ago |
| 20:46:55 | monikers | my story in nutshell ^ |
| 20:47:29 | monikers | I did 2000 lines of cpp (mixed style) program badly written in high school like 7 yrs ago |
| 20:47:33 | monikers | it was unit converter |
| 20:47:43 | monikers | had colors in it ; also local fonts |
| 20:48:32 | elrood | besides, why restrict yourself to just one language. if you really want to learn you should have a look at several and preferrably try and compare them in parallel. haskell, rust, c and nim are all interesting in their own right |
| 20:48:35 | monikers | thereafter no coding for 7 yrs that was only to impress my cute high school teacher :) I loved her lol :) |
| 20:49:12 | monikers | elrood, I am learning cli / bash and then I would stop probably but I want to keep the zeal alive in it |
| 20:49:24 | monikers | to code and write something that works out of the box :) |
| 20:50:39 | monikers | elrood, I am not going to be writing code for people ; just for myself I am not sure Iwould choose many langs to write the code in future |
| 20:50:51 | monikers | so basically I just spammed this chan :/ |
| 20:50:54 | monikers | sorry |
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| 20:52:41 | reactormonk | monikers, it's not like you're outscrolling someone else |
| 20:53:35 | elrood | i somewhat hope that others here will disagree, but since you sound like you mostly want something that just works, with a gui designer tool and without rough edges and the occasional frustrations that are unavoidable in a young language, Nim might not be perfect. if you're open to experiments, just try it |
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| 20:57:05 | monikers | ok |
| 20:57:21 | monikers | I am trying C -- the crucial lang first but with C11 improvements |
| 20:57:35 | monikers | hope it works for me, if it don't i would return to bug you people :) |
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| 20:57:44 | monikers | you would be like "damn! he is back" |
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| 21:05:11 | indiagreen | yeah, “damn, people want to use Nim! what do we do now...” |
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| 21:18:41 | elrood | damn, a tang of a bad conscience rears its head. if you'd prefer more enthusiastic and less conservative evangelism for Nim, please just say so, Araq |
| 21:19:54 | dom96 | I would say that when comparing Nim to C, you should consider the fact that while some of Nim's more advanced features may still have some rough edges, Nim is still a better C even without those features. So you're better off using it anyway. |
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| 21:30:15 | tmm1 | is there a changelog for nim apart from the git history? |
| 21:31:48 | dom96 | tmm1: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/web/news.txt |
| 21:33:11 | tmm1 | perfect, thanks |
| 21:34:03 | Araq | so nobody felt like telling the guy C cannot even do array bounds checking?! |
| 21:34:19 | Araq | it's a desaster for beginners. |
| 21:34:42 | Araq | there is no other common programming language around that is as unsafe as C. |
| 21:34:44 | softinio | @Araq tell you the truth I don't think he new what he wanted\ |
| 21:35:15 | Araq | but you do know that he doesn't want to spend his lifetime hunting cryptic segfaults! |
| 21:36:00 | Araq | I can understand that beginners choose Python over Nim for exploring the programming landscape, but fucking C? |
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| 21:38:44 | elrood | while i didn't see anybody especially recommending C, tbh he sounded like he was bound for desaster no matter what was going to be recommended. he needs to make up his mind and be disappointed first to discover Nim |
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| 21:39:08 | indiagreen | well, once you eliminate all interpreted languages, all JVM/CLR/etc languages, and all sufficiently obscure languages... I guess C enters the picture, yeah |
| 21:39:17 | indiagreen | tho I was tempted to mention Pascal for some reason |
| 21:39:55 | * | indiagreen remembers vaguely that Pascal has bound checking too |
| 21:40:10 | ryu0 | C... I learned it as my first language. I would not recommend it any beginners now. |
| 21:40:16 | ryu0 | it to |
| 21:40:58 | ryu0 | it requires too much effort to do things correctly. |
| 21:44:29 | Araq | sorry for the cursing, but I think you guys could have done a better job at helping a newbie out |
| 21:44:38 | ryu0 | Araq: i wasn't even here. :| |
| 21:45:04 | Araq | you don't have to tell everybody in #nim to use only Nim and nothing else |
| 21:45:20 | Araq | (though it helps ... :P) |
| 21:45:30 | Araq | but if the choice is only between C and Nim ... |
| 21:46:02 | ryu0 | at this point I'd only use C for binding to well-tested libraries... |
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| 21:47:57 | tmm1 | lol |
| 21:48:15 | tmm1 | he'll be back soon, he's not going to get very far with C |
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| 21:49:01 | NhanH | that guy is weird, Rust/Haskell/Nim/C is not a particularly normal set of language choices for beginners |
| 21:49:09 | NhanH | where did he even get the list from .. |
| 21:49:37 | Araq | NhanH: it's a fair list when you're after "produces native binaries" |
| 21:50:08 | Araq | of course it's not complete at all |
| 21:50:14 | elrood | frankly, what would you recommend to someone who needs something newbie-friendly, that's well documented, preferrably had some books written about, and makes GUI building easy, and compiles to native code? there's nowhere you can go with those preconditions |
| 21:50:48 | NhanH | Araq: it was the language short list he mentioned ,and seeing those, Go would have popped to my mind as a better choice to start with, simple boring language, good tooling |
| 21:51:00 | NhanH | I meant, Haskell and Rust are borderline nuts for beginners |
| 21:51:29 | Araq | yeah I guess you're right. though some people claim you're better off starting right away with FP |
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| 21:54:07 | NhanH | anyway, I'm looking for some good nim code to read to get myself started (mostly to see what has changed in the past year), do you have any suggestion? |
| 21:54:14 | NhanH | Preferably something doesn't involve the compiler itself |
| 21:55:11 | ryu0 | which reminds me. is this place the only real resource for learning about all the syntax constructs of nim? http://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html |
| 21:56:05 | ryu0 | the standard library is meaningless to me if i don't yet know the syntax. |
| 21:56:34 | Araq | ryu0: well the tutorials are not *that* bad at explaining the syntax |
| 21:56:43 | ryu0 | Araq: where are they then? |
| 21:56:51 | ryu0 | oh. the learn section. |
| 21:56:59 | ryu0 | i'm used to going for the manuals, not tutorials. |
| 22:00:49 | tmm1 | i ended up reading the entire manual before i found the tutorials too |
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| 22:01:53 | Araq | well I'm thinking about redesigning the website |
| 22:02:23 | dom96 | how did you guys find the manual first instead of the tutorials? |
| 22:02:41 | elrood | how is the general attitude towards http://nim-by-example.github.io here? |
| 22:02:43 | ryu0 | maybe i glossed over that because i was looking for the technical documentation. |
| 22:02:44 | dom96 | NhanH: Nimble's code base might be good. |
| 22:03:09 | dom96 | elrood: It's good although I wish it gave some stdlib examples too |
| 22:04:06 | dom96 | The tutorials are the first links on the learn page: http://nim-lang.org/learn.html |
| 22:04:27 | Araq | NhanH: when I want to learn some Nim, I usually look at fowl's code ;-) |
| 22:04:54 | Araq | though I don't know if it is "good code". |
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| 22:05:14 | dom96 | NhanH: depends what you're interested in I suppose? |
| 22:06:53 | ryu0 | ._. |
| 22:07:02 | ryu0 | that's funny. |
| 22:07:02 | dom96 | Araq: why do you want to redesign it? |
| 22:07:26 | Araq | dom96: there is too much text on the frontpage |
| 22:07:46 | ryu0 | "The character conventionally used by the operating system to separate search patch components (as in PATH), such as ':' for POSIX or ';' for Windows." |
| 22:07:51 | dom96 | Araq: Ahh, so not really "redesign". |
| 22:07:53 | ryu0 | search PATCH? LOL |
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| 22:08:03 | dom96 | Araq: Just "adjust front page slightly"? :P |
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| 22:08:19 | ryu0 | http://nim-lang.org/docs/os.html <-- from here |
| 22:08:22 | ryu0 | XD |
| 22:08:33 | Araq | also we don't have any good document like "show me what only Nim can do" |
| 22:09:00 | dom96 | Araq: That sounds like a blog post |
| 22:09:02 | ryu0 | I don't know, is there such a thing? |
| 22:09:26 | dom96 | I thought it might be nice to give the news posts their own pages so that we can have comments and stuff. |
| 22:09:29 | Araq | ryu0: it's called a "typo". thanks for reporting it though. |
| 22:09:32 | ryu0 | you'd think a good programmer could make any software in any language |
| 22:09:48 | ryu0 | Araq: okay, well, i just find these humorous when i find them. |
| 22:10:07 | NhanH | dom96: Mostly just to go through what idiomatic code looks like and have the feel for the language (I went through the whole manual last year, but encounter some bugs and stopped) |
| 22:10:31 | ryu0 | although i will admit some languages are better suited than others to certain software tasks |
| 22:10:37 | NhanH | Also, I'm one of those who found the docs before "learn", just because it's a habit to find docs first |
| 22:10:45 | NhanH | I skim through the word learn and didn't mentally parse it |
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| 22:11:10 | dom96 | NhanH: nim-by-example might be good for you then |
| 22:11:11 | ryu0 | NhanH: like a RE ignoring anything it isn't looking for? =p |
| 22:11:27 | NhanH | ryu0: yeah, it was either "getting started", "tutorial" or "documentation" |
| 22:11:39 | NhanH | I didn't expect "learn" in my RE :P |
| 22:11:45 | dom96 | Perhaps the manual should be called "spec" not "manual"? |
| 22:12:00 | dom96 | That said, it works pretty well as a manual anyway. |
| 22:12:03 | ryu0 | free pascal calls their document the language reference |
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| 22:12:36 | dom96 | Also I am pretty used to typing "manual" into my address bar now... |
| 22:14:09 | ryu0 | I wonder if someone could create a Nim bot using nim and tiny c compiler. :) |
| 22:14:11 | ryu0 | haha. |
| 22:14:15 | Araq | dom96: well it's evolving into a spec |
| 22:14:32 | ryu0 | an IRC bot to evaluate nim code. |
| 22:14:39 | * | ryu0 shrugs. |
| 22:15:04 | dom96 | If somebody could finish this: https://github.com/ekarlso/nim-playpen |
| 22:15:06 | ryu0 | Araq: may I ask what C dialect nim outputs? |
| 22:15:07 | dom96 | That would be awesome |
| 22:15:15 | ryu0 | C89, C99, C11, ...? |
| 22:15:37 | dom96 | C89 IIRC |
| 22:15:38 | indiagreen | ryu0: #haskell has a bot to evaluate Haskell code and it's pretty useful for demonstrations |
| 22:15:48 | Araq | C code with gnu extensions when generating code for gcc |
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| 22:15:57 | Araq | same for visual c++ and clang |
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| 22:16:06 | dom96 | I want NimBot to support nim code eval |
| 22:16:06 | Araq | but based on C89 |
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| 22:16:21 | tmm1 | how come 0.11.4 isn't on the website? |
| 22:16:43 | tmm1 | news.txt says it was released "2015-09-14" |
| 22:17:02 | Araq | no, news.txt has a big *comment* about what is to come |
| 22:17:20 | ryu0 | in other words, it's still not released? |
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| 22:17:36 | Araq | aye, we're only working on the regressions though |
| 22:17:50 | Araq | apart from these it's ready to go |
| 22:18:00 | Araq | also it will be version 0.12.0 |
| 22:18:03 | tmm1 | ah its a comment |
| 22:18:56 | tmm1 | noticed a minor typo reading through https://gist.github.com/tmm1/1d64969262482b13aeca |
| 22:20:50 | ryu0 | Araq: how thorough is c2nim? |
| 22:21:26 | ryu0 | Araq: i recall that automation tools for converting C headers to another language's native version tend to only do a partial job. |
| 22:21:59 | ryu0 | for example, macro 'constants' tend to be left out. :/ |
| 22:22:17 | Araq | ryu0: c2nim is better than most other tools |
| 22:22:26 | Araq | in particular it translates #define foo 12 |
| 22:22:36 | ryu0 | even ones that are expression? |
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| 22:22:38 | ryu0 | (1 << 1) |
| 22:22:41 | ryu0 | ? |
| 22:22:45 | dom96 | tmm1: You going to create a PR or should I just fix it now? :) |
| 22:22:46 | ryu0 | but can be folded into a constant values? |
| 22:22:55 | ryu0 | s/values/value/ |
| 22:23:02 | Araq | ryu0: no but Nim later does it |
| 22:23:08 | ryu0 | ah, k. |
| 22:23:09 | Araq | const foo = 1 shl 1 |
| 22:23:15 | tmm1 | dom96: just fix it, doesn't seem worth a PR |
| 22:24:02 | Araq | ryu0: c2nim has been used to translate at least ~300_000 lines of C and C++ code by now |
| 22:24:25 | Araq | more likely a million, it's hard to estimate |
| 22:24:52 | ryu0 | Araq: i was asking because i've seen this type before for Free pascal and D, and they both sucked. =p |
| 22:25:06 | Araq | that doesn't mean it's perfect, but latest versions allow you to only modify the C code and to not touch the resulting Nim code |
| 22:25:24 | Araq | so you can keep the diffs required for the C headers around |
| 22:25:50 | Araq | and quickly regenerate a wrapper should a new version of your favourite header files come along |
| 22:25:51 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 9908127 Dominik Picheta [+0 ±1 -0]: Fixes typo in news.txt (thanks @tmm1) |
| 22:25:55 | ryu0 | how does Nim access sockets and such? the C stdlib or by making system calls directly? |
| 22:26:13 | Araq | there is no difference when it comes to sockets |
| 22:26:20 | ryu0 | ah, okay. |
| 22:26:28 | Araq | C's stdlib has no socket support. |
| 22:26:33 | ryu0 | i meant POSIX. |
| 22:26:34 | ryu0 | sorry. |
| 22:26:46 | ryu0 | it includes sockets. |
| 22:27:02 | Araq | usually we have OS specific implementations for everything |
| 22:27:03 | dom96 | POSIX/WinAPI |
| 22:27:14 | ryu0 | technically you can bypass libc if you don't mind writing OS specific ASM. |
| 22:27:27 | ryu0 | for some anyway. |
| 22:27:42 | Araq | ah ok, we don't do that. would be cool though. |
| 22:28:06 | ryu0 | Linux and FreeBSD document their system calls. i've written amd64 pure ASM programs for fun. |
| 22:28:09 | ryu0 | nothing fancy though. |
| 22:29:20 | Araq | ryu0: I can assure you c2nim is year ahead of FPC's header file tool. |
| 22:29:25 | Araq | *years |
| 22:29:29 | ryu0 | yea, i imagine it is. |
| 22:30:00 | Araq | I used FPC's tool quite a bit. and learned from its mistakes. |
| 22:30:10 | tmm1 | what if c2nim automatically treated non-parsable #define as #def ? |
| 22:30:32 | Araq | tmm1: yup, great idea, planned feature |
| 22:30:52 | tmm1 | i'm curious how cgo works, it manages to automatically import all types and functions into the C namespace |
| 22:31:01 | Araq | there are also other heuristics you can use to determine the #def vs #define question |
| 22:31:46 | ryu0 | Araq: will distributed source archives ever require the nim compiler? i've used some C code generators before (re2c/lemon), and i could ship the generated files instead of requiring the end user to have anything more than make and a c compiler. |
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| 22:32:51 | ryu0 | i'm just curious if i choose to use nim, what burdens will i be shifting onto people building my software? |
| 22:32:55 | Araq | ryu0: niminst supports pure C based installations out of the box |
| 22:33:06 | ryu0 | interesting. |
| 22:33:22 | ryu0 | that might make for a good compelling reason to use nim over other languages. |
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| 22:33:34 | ryu0 | it just uses the existing C runtime. |
| 22:34:09 | ryu0 | a lot of other languages require their fat runtimes to already be installed. C is usually already present. |
| 22:38:45 | tmm1 | Araq: i might take a stab at that def/define feature, is there any discussion i can reference about it? |
| 22:39:24 | Araq | tmm1: no but |
| 22:39:54 | Araq | a) I bet it's not easy otherwise I would have done it by now ;-) |
| 22:40:22 | Araq | b) check out how the backtracking is done in the parser |
| 22:41:09 | Araq | I would backtrack on a parsing error and treat the #define as a #def |
| 22:42:19 | Araq | but iirc the support for backtracking in the parser is not available for the preprocessor, so you need to do some refactorings |
| 22:46:43 | Araq | you can also do it completely differently: do a prepass over the source, count how often the #define is actually used. if no of occurences >= 3, it's a #def, not a #define. |
| 22:49:40 | tmm1 | why 3? |
| 22:51:49 | Araq | because my nose tells me it's 3. but 2 or 4 should be equally good. |
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| 23:05:32 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 371470e Dominik Picheta [+0 ±2 -2]: Fixes #2889. Merges *tostring tests in tests/system. |
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| 23:26:44 | ekarlso | dom96: --- |
| 23:26:56 | ekarlso | u there dom96 + |
| 23:27:36 | Araq | ekarlso: take it as a compliment. we really want your work to continue :-) |
| 23:27:59 | ekarlso | Araq: https://glot.io/new/nim |
| 23:28:48 | Araq | ekarlso: sweet but compiletimes are horrible |
| 23:29:03 | ekarlso | :p |
| 23:29:22 | Araq | configure it to use TinyC perhaps? |
| 23:29:25 | ekarlso | well if someone fixes the concurrent compiles stuff |
| 23:29:36 | * | keyle joined #nim |
| 23:29:37 | ekarlso | I'll gladly put it up on a freely hosted env :) |
| 23:29:48 | Araq | oh you got to be kidding me |
| 23:30:01 | Araq | still no CGI support? |
| 23:30:07 | * | yglukhov quit (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:30:50 | ekarlso | nope :P |
| 23:30:57 | Araq | rumors are CGI predates the invention of wheels |
| 23:31:33 | strcmp1 | lol |
| 23:31:36 | ekarlso | Araq: why not just fix the async thing ? |
| 23:31:38 | ekarlso | .. |
| 23:31:46 | ekarlso | would probably take out ̃~2 hours |
| 23:31:49 | federico3 | hipsters |
| 23:31:59 | ekarlso | federico3: you go fix :p |
| 23:32:11 | ekarlso | i'll gladly add more features to it once that's done |
| 23:32:23 | Araq | async doesn't help you, I told you before |
| 23:32:33 | ekarlso | Araq: and rly why not ? |
| 23:32:44 | ekarlso | nim can't handle multiple commands asyncly ? |
| 23:32:44 | Araq | because you need to run an external program either way |
| 23:32:54 | ekarlso | aaand ? |
| 23:33:04 | Araq | aand that's what CGI does. |
| 23:33:14 | ekarlso | the program can be made to do stuff like snippet storage / share as well |
| 23:33:36 | Araq | also we "fixed" async, depending on what you mean by "fixed". |
| 23:33:58 | ekarlso | Araq: the asyncproc module that I used blows up.. |
| 23:34:07 | ekarlso | dunno if it works better after ^ |
| 23:34:42 | Araq | dunno either, but will you accept a patch to make it use CGI? |
| 23:35:24 | ekarlso | Araq: depends on what features u want with it long term.. |
| 23:35:59 | Araq | how about that it short term allows for more than a single user to run a Nim program? |
| 23:36:59 | dom96 | ekarlso: hello |
| 23:37:21 | ekarlso | dom96: are you in dublin somewhere ? |
| 23:37:53 | dom96 | ekarlso: i'm in Belfast why? |
| 23:38:03 | ekarlso | dom96: awe :p |
| 23:38:12 | ekarlso | dom96: in dublin atm with federico3 close by :p |
| 23:38:16 | dom96 | ekarlso: is glot.io your Nim implementation? |
| 23:38:35 | ekarlso | dom96: no but I know who the guy is that wrote it |
| 23:38:38 | strcmp1 | where do they come up with the names for these cities |
| 23:40:06 | federico3 | Hey strcmp1 |
| 23:40:08 | dom96 | strcmp1: you still in Dublin? |
| 23:40:13 | strcmp1 | yep |
| 23:40:18 | strcmp1 | hey federico3 |
| 23:41:31 | dom96 | hmm, maybe it's time to have that meetup? |
| 23:43:36 | ekarlso | dom96: ell I'm only here until tmrw :( |
| 23:43:47 | ekarlso | dom96: ehm, 12 thursdah |
| 23:44:48 | dom96 | pity |
| 23:45:36 | dom96 | We could set something up for tomorrow or thursday |
| 23:45:47 | ekarlso | dom96: if you can do tmrw it would be awesome :P |
| 23:48:00 | dom96 | 2.5 hour train ... gah |
| 23:48:08 | dom96 | not sure I have the time to be honest. |
| 23:48:20 | dom96 | Got to be working |
| 23:50:28 | strcmp1 | the guinness is better in dublin |
| 23:50:39 | * | keyle quit (Quit: http://twitter.com/keyle/) |
| 23:52:45 | ekarlso | dom96: oh well, next time then haha |
| 23:53:04 | dom96 | ekarlso: are you in Dublin often? |
| 23:53:26 | ekarlso | dom96: uhm, over a year since the last time :P |
| 23:53:48 | dom96 | ekarlso: oh :\ |
| 23:53:56 | dom96 | maybe you can come to Belfast next time :P |
| 23:54:11 | ekarlso | dom96: wtf go to belfast ? |
| 23:54:19 | ekarlso | dom96: it's the shire :P |
| 23:54:46 | federico3 | The Shire? I wish |
| 23:55:14 | dom96 | heh |
| 23:55:24 | dom96 | Araq: I think glot.io is just slow, even Go takes forever: https://glot.io/new/go |
| 23:55:58 | dom96 | Everything takes forever in fact. |
| 23:56:06 | ekarlso | dom96: federico3 http://bloodandporridge.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Americans-Europe.jpg |
| 23:57:31 | federico3 | odd |
| 23:59:25 | dom96 | Well, I should head to sleep |
| 23:59:26 | dom96 | good night |
| 23:59:50 | * | pregressive joined #nim |
