<< 22-09-2016 >>
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01:27:10FromGitter<aboisvert> ihttrtrnfktbdgcdcguvghiuikiutglihirdiltlhluu
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07:11:11def-cool article which includes some Nim code: http://blog.johnnovak.net/2016/09/21/what-every-coder-should-know-about-gamma/
07:17:20ftsf_seems good so far
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07:27:55FromGitter<dom96> Saw it on HN this morning, instantly recognised the name. Didn't notice the Nim code though.
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08:10:58FromGitter<dom96> I like how some of his blog articles mention the songs he's listening to: http://blog.johnnovak.net/2016/04/28/the-nim-raytracer-project-part1/
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08:11:06FromGitter<dom96> Time to take these suggestions for a test drive
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08:17:32cheatfate_dom96, could you please check my night messages about tasynceverror?
08:17:40*cheatfate_ is now known as cheatfate
08:19:19FromGitter<dom96> cheatfate_: I'll need to look into it after work.
08:20:33cheatfatedom96, as you said earlier, you do not believe me?
08:20:35cheatfate:)
08:25:21FromGitter<dom96> If you know you're right then why are you asking for my opinion?
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08:42:20cheatfatedom96, touche, i will wait for your opinion
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09:18:24Arrrrhttps://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/4756
09:18:27Arrrrcrash tag maybe?
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10:50:08FromGitter<coffeepots> Does anyone here use Nim at work, full time or almost full time?
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10:51:59*flyx uses quite some Nim at work
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10:53:26FromGitter<coffeepots> Cool :) just curious really
10:53:57FromGitter<coffeepots> wish I could switch to using it full time, so much more productive
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11:29:46FromGitter<dom96> I envy everyone that gets to use it at work.
11:29:56FromGitter<dom96> As I sadly don't :\
11:33:33federico3dom96: it will change
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11:36:53flyxwhat shell is nimscript's exec using? can I force it to use bash?
11:43:34BlaXpiritflyx, i dug until here https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/6a1b8e691fdd413578bb9e315f34a53369f111ed/compiler/scriptconfig.nim#L78
11:44:34flyxwell I just figured I could use nimscript's facilities to do what I want instead of bash voodoo
11:45:13FromGitter<dom96> federico3: let's start our own company, with blackjack and Nim :P
11:47:07federico3...and robots with lasers
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11:54:02*chemist69 uses Nim for (currently only) small projects at work: https://github.com/apahl/nim_labtools
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12:52:46krux02In code that already worked yesterday, I now get an error that says "result cannot be passed to a procvar"
12:52:50krux02what is a procvar?
12:53:43krux02I basically do result.data[i] = input.data[i] * x
12:53:57krux02and that worked, now it doesn't and I have no idea what whent wrong
12:54:48flyxa procvar is a variable which has a proc type.
12:55:59krux02that's weired
12:56:19krux02there is nothing that is supposed to have a proc type
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12:56:46krux02oh yea I now I created a procudure with the name result
12:56:53krux02that might cause the problem
12:56:59krux02I think I have to rename it
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13:09:32krux02I have another error message:
13:09:34krux02cannot instantiate Tensor
13:09:34krux02got: (Dimensions)
13:09:34krux02but expected: (Dimensions)
13:10:01krux02where dimensions is the generic parameter
13:10:39FromGitter<coffeepots> expecting var Dimensions?
13:10:57FromGitter<coffeepots> no wait, that's not right if it's generic lol
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13:25:56FromGitter<coffeepots> do we have an offtopic room on gitter? Couldn't see on on search
13:32:26BlaXpiritcoffeepots, nope https://gitter.im/nim-lang
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13:37:26FromGitter<coffeepots> fair do's, guess nim-offtopic is still available on webchat anyway
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16:50:06krux02I am writing macros, and it would be really helpful if I could create empty statement lists in `quote do` blocks
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16:50:36krux02currently I always have to put a discard in there, and that I need to kick out again with some post processing
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17:05:47krux02I thought NimNode was a reference, at least that's what it states in the documentation, but when I put a NimNode in a sequence to reference some parts of the AST I realized that they are not referencing at all
17:05:51krux02they secretly copy
17:05:57krux02args
17:08:51krux02Am I now forced to create pointers to ref types?
17:26:54libmanAnyone thinking of writing a C compiler in Nim? :P
17:27:47libmanIn every tragedy (LLVM relicense) there is opportunity.
17:29:45krux02what's the problem with the new license of LLVM?
17:31:34libmanIt is my life's mission to create an Lawyer-free OS, where all components don't threaten anyone with violence. See http://copyfree.org
17:32:05libmanApache License is not as harmful as GPL, but it still doesn't fit our definition of Free Software - copyfree.org/standard/rejected
17:32:38libmanThink of us Copyfree folks as vegans. We're a very small fraction of the population, and generally an annoyance to everybody else. ;)
17:34:18libmanI've been promoting Nim as the ideal language for our conceived endeavors, although Go is a very strong competitor.
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17:35:14libmanLLVM switching to AL2 marks the death (as far as we're concerned) of all languages / implementations that are married to LLVM - Rust, Julia, Emscripten, Clasp, Pony, etc - and anything that depends on them. (Uncopyfree LLVM projects like Swift, LDC, Pyston, Rubinius, Crystal, Scala Native, etc have been dead to us already.) The otherwise-Copyfree Redox OS project (in Rust), for which we had much hope, is now also dead...
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17:36:23libmanI am very biased toward Nim because Python has been my favorite language for most of my professional career.
17:38:48libmanSo I've been looking for ways to make the case that Nim is the "most libertarian language" in which the userland should be written (comparable to C# in the Microsoft ecosystem, Swift in Apple, or Java in Oracle / Android / etc).
17:39:35libmanThe LLVM license change now makes this "Nim more libertarian than Golang" argument MUCH more difficult.
17:43:47libmanGo offers a full Copyfree compiler stack, from the source code to machine language. In a Copyfree OS, Nim would now be tied to a stagnating version of Clang (the last version released under current license).
17:57:03libmanhttps://archive.is/V4HVY
18:00:14Calinoulibman: are you even knowing why LLVM is considering relicensing?
18:00:41libmanLawyers making work for themselves.
18:00:44Calinoupatent protection is important, I think Apache 2.0 is a good license for large projects that don't need GPLv2 compatibility (or are willing to add an exception)
18:00:55Calinouit has built-in CLA too
18:00:58Calinouand trademark clauses
18:01:11libmanThis is like supporting Hitler out of fear of Stalin.
18:01:49libmanThere are other licenses that achieve the desired patent waiver without the restrictions added by Apache 2.0
18:02:15krux02I have no idea about all those liceses
18:03:00krux02I just know GPL which is very aggressive to force every component of it to be GPL, too, and then there is BSD which means do whatever you want just don't claim it's yours
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18:03:38libmanGolang has a separate patent waiver beside the BSD license. Other alternatives are COIL and MS-PL. ##copyfree would be a better channel for an in-depth discussion on this. I'd like to keep my rants at least somewhat constructive for the Nim community. ;)
18:03:43krux02different versions of differnt liceses, no idea
18:04:30krux02ok
18:04:51krux02I just made a new issue on the nim languae, I would like to get some feedback: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/4821
18:04:53libmanIssues specific to Nim is increased need to support obscure ANSI C compilers.
18:05:15Calinoukrux02: GPL doesn't force components to be GPL, only GPL-compatible
18:05:22Calinouand in many cases you don't have to do anything special
18:05:31Calinoufor example, you can write GPL-incompatible programs that run on the Linux kernel
18:05:54libmanJust wait till GPL v4.
18:06:34Calinouheh
18:06:38krux02has there ever been a lawsuit from a GPL company to an open source company because the liceses were not compatible?
18:06:43Calinouthat's like Python 4, it'll taker a long time to happen
18:06:50Calinoukrux02: not sure
18:07:03Calinougenerally, you enforce the GPL only on grave violations, ie. proprietary derivative works
18:07:08Calinouand you still need money for that
18:07:40krux02I am more like, I can't take care of everything and take everything in that respect very naively
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18:08:43krux02I don't make a big difference between open source and free software, as long as the software is transparent to it's users everything is fine
18:09:07krux02and when someone points out that something is wrong I would fix it as an afterthought
18:09:16Calinouopen source and free software are essentially the same at this point
18:09:24Calinou(provided you follow OSI definition of open source, which ought to be the right one)
18:09:28libmanMy license position is more philosophical than practical. I've never closed-source-forked anything, and I don't see why I ever will.
18:10:21libmanI wanna use the term "Free Software" too. Who made Stallman the godemperor of Software Freedom? I don't agree with him.
18:10:43federico3there are other venues to discuss this topic - this channel is about Nim
18:11:29libmanI wanted to discuss Nim's Copyfreedom Score relative to Go. It depends on Nim being able to use a copyfree C compiler...
18:11:45krux02libman: I think it's weired that you like nim because of it's python syntax, because anatomically it's not like python at all, and the syntax is probably one of it's weakest parts, because it misses the expressivenes to build emty contructs like emty statement lists or emty initializer calls and stuff like that
18:12:01Calinoudom96: hi! what do you think about a tile-based design for the Community page, like this: https://godotengine.org/community
18:12:13Calinouhaving 4-6 tiles for every community resource sounds good to me
18:16:12krux02I build a lot of macros lately and try to use the quote contruct as much as possilble, but a majority of node types of the ast can't be created, because they need a context to be created.
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18:18:48libmanSimilar to Python or not, I still prefer Nim's syntax over Go (and don't even get me started on Haskell).
18:19:34libmanGodot's tiles aren't as zoom-responsive as I like.
18:20:53libmanIt just goes from 1 (mobile) to 3 (desktop), and if you zoom out further you still only get three ever-smaller tiles in the middle.
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18:21:34libmanI've long been inspired by https://www.eecs.mit.edu/
18:22:45libmanYou zoom out, the tiles resize. Perfect for high-IQ users with VR glasses.
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18:29:40krux02since I guess when I last posted it, my message drowned in a flood of other peoples messages, I would really like to get a tiny bit of feedback to my recent issue here: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/4821
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18:35:04krux02Araq: How do I create a list of NimNodes that are not copies of the nodes I put in there?
18:36:01krux02am I forced to use the ptr to the ref
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18:36:59dom96Calinou: sure, sounds good
18:37:42dom96that screenshot of xchat on ubuntu gave me flashbacks of my own IRC client
18:41:11flyxkrux02: I think you hit the problem that refs do not work well in the VM
18:42:36flyxkrux02: see also https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/1330
18:42:39krux02flyx: not only not well, I feel a but stuck here
18:44:11krux02it's good to see, that it has a High Priority tag, but that was two years ago
18:44:36krux02I guess my issue is then a duplicate of your issue
18:45:19krux02I am wondering how I can solve the problem, becaues I am now allowed to use pointers
18:45:25flyxnot sure. my issue is about global variables, while yours is about variables in a macro
18:46:03krux02it's the same problem that unwanted copies are created
18:46:39krux02the problem is that I have no idea how the vm works, the only interpreted language I use is bash
18:46:50krux02I have no idea what can cause this problem
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18:46:58flyxAraq commented in my issue that it works if a and b are local variables
18:47:49flyxso I guess your issue has a different source, but generates the same symptome
18:48:42krux02i show that it works with local variables
18:48:52krux02but in arrays in local variables it breaks
18:48:56krux02that's so weird
18:50:27Araqkrux02: what feedback do you want? the VM hates the pointer semantics, so hard to get it right
18:50:55Araqthere is a reason why Python et al don't have pointers at all.
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18:58:57krux02Araq: python has reference types, and pointers and references are not that different
19:00:17krux02flyx: I now tried lisp style lists, but same result:
19:00:17krux02type NodeList = object
19:00:17krux02 head: NimNode
19:00:17krux02 tail: ref NodeList
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19:09:45krux02Araq: what is so problematic with reference types on the VM? I never wrote a VM so I would never guess what could be the problem.
19:15:55krux02I am trying to implement a somewhat bigger DSL compiler that runs on the VM, so I would realld like to know more about the VM before I run into problems like this again
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19:40:20Araqdon't lecture me please. I happen to know how Python is implemented.
19:40:45Araqjust look at the bugs tagged with VM to see its limitations
19:41:01Araqthat particular bug of yours seems rather simple to fix though
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20:13:38hohlerdearaq: modula 3 had an higher impact on nim than ada?
20:15:20hohlerdei once read in the forum that nim is mainly ada with new syntax and garbage collector. I am just curious.
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20:17:16flyxNim is, in several places, conceptually very different from Ada.
20:17:39ldleworkAraq: why not make `x, y = z()` destructure items(z()) or raise an error if z doesn't return something that items() can be called on
20:17:49ldleworkinstead of calling z multiple times - just curious really
20:17:59hohlerdefrom the faq: The language borrows heavily from (in order of impact): Modula 3, Delphi, Ada, C++, Python, Lisp, Oberon.
20:18:19ldleworkotoh, `a, b, c = rand()` is a neat trick
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21:04:55flyxI have written up some things I do in NimYAML: https://flyx.org/2016/09/22/nimyaml/
21:05:15flyxit's quite shallow because I didn't want to write too much, but it might be nice to show people what Nim can do
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21:19:33hohlerdecool, that's nice
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21:34:23ldleworkflyx: thanks for writing that
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22:23:46dom96Sorry Irccloud users, you should now be able to join here
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22:36:55cheatfatedom96, do you made your checks about morning issue?
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23:05:23PMunchAnyone here knows if there is a way to show the entire error message in the Nim Atom plugin?
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