<< 23-02-2016 >>
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01:07:40ldleworkI still haven't figured out how to change the doc styles
01:07:49ldleworkBut I have to say nim documentation generation is pretty nice
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01:10:12ldleworkI love that it automatically documents what exceptions a proc raises
01:10:34ldleworkI have to wonder if the compiler deduces that recursively? Or just from the given proc.
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01:17:14ldleworkIs there anyway to get the compiler to yell at me for not handling the exceptions that can be raised by procs that are called?
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02:07:22def-ldlework: sure https://gist.github.com/def-/4ca66849c41042788906
02:08:17ldleworkdef-: I don't understand you'd have to manually mark every single proc as not raising anything?
02:08:28def-ldlework: and btw with "nim doc2" you can see which proc raises what
02:08:38ldleworkdef-: that's what I'm doing
02:08:52def-yeah, if you want no proc to be able to raise anything then you should specify that
02:08:53ldleworkI already said "I love that it automatically documents what exceptions a proc raises"
02:08:55ldlework...
02:09:09def-well, i didn't read that far back, just saw your unanswered question. sorry
02:09:28ldleworkdef-: I don't want no proc to be able to raise anything ... I want to know where I'm not properly handling exceptions.
02:09:51ldlework17:17:14 ldlework | Is there anyway to get the compiler to yell at me for not handling the exceptions that can be raised by procs that
02:09:53ldlework | are called?
02:10:38ldleworkif I was smart enough to know to add a pragma to g, I wouldn't need that compiler option in the first place :)
02:10:44def-not sure why the compiler should tell you that though, sounds good enough that the doc does.
02:11:03ldlework...
02:11:14def-if you care that much about exceptions it sounds like a smart idea to document in your code which exceptions are intentional
02:11:14ldleworkbecause computers are automatic computation machines
02:11:30ldleworkvs using the documentation to audit all the callers of a function manually?
02:11:32ldleworkI mean .. what
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02:12:18ldleworkMaybe the compiler should not have to tell me when I'm misusing types too
02:12:23ldleworkbecause the documentation does
02:12:26ldleworkseriously?
02:13:02def-but you write down the types in your code, why not write down the possible exceptions instead of having them automatically derived?
02:13:19ldlework1) the compiler is ALREADY derriving what exceptions are raised
02:13:48ldlework2) just tell me when callers of such functions with non-empty derrived exceptional effects don't handle those effects
02:13:51ldleworkas warnings
02:13:57ldleworkso I can slowly eliminate all unhandled exceptions
02:14:10def-but maybe it is intentional that the exception is not caught, so that it can be handled at a higher level
02:14:29ldleworkYes for it to be useful it would have to be recursive no doubt
02:16:28ldleworkIts a hard thing for a human to reason about whether all the exceptions in a codebase a properly or at least eventually handled.
02:16:50ldleworkIt would also be probably very hard for a computer to do the same, but if it could be done it'd be of a lot more utility than the documentation.
02:19:02def-I think the reasoning becomes easier by annotating what exceptions a proc can raise
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02:19:19def-I guess that's the best Nim can offer. Not sure what other languages have in this area
02:22:59ldleworkI don't think I've ever heard of a program providing global exception handling audit :)
02:23:07ldleworkprogramming language*
02:23:24ldleworkjust saying it'd be useful!
02:23:25ldlework:)
02:24:29Varriount_ldlework: Java and checked exceptions.
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02:24:52VarriountOf course, you can see how well *that* worked out.
02:25:19ldleworkI don't know anything about it
02:25:58Varriountldlework: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Java_Programming/Checked_Exceptions
02:25:59ldleworkThat only checks the function from which it is thrown though
02:26:13ldleworkWe're talking about global exception checking
02:26:25ldleworkVarriount: also this page doesn't explain why this is poison
02:26:35ldleworkI could see how it is useless at a single level
02:26:42ldleworksince that's not how exceptions are used...
02:27:04VarriountI don't understand what you mean by 'global exceptions', unless you mean something like OOM errors.
02:28:19ldleworkVarriount: I didn't say "global exceptions"
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03:10:38lxdong_@dom96 I've emailed Manning agency in Asia with no reply
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04:10:39ldleworkdef-: do you think it'd be possible for the marshal lib to have a proc that takes a json node?
04:10:54ldleworkoh I just realized I can serialize then unmarshal
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07:04:31Varriountonionhammer: Ok, I've pulled the modal dialogues, although it's increased the code somewhat (a check has to be made for each subprocess call)
07:05:31Varriountonionhammer: Unfortunately, without Nim-like templates, I can't think of a good way to shrink any of the existing commands.
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07:23:02lxdong_ZZZzzz…
07:27:26lxdong_you work on Nim full-time or part-time?
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08:11:57gokrMorning
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08:17:52lxdong_hi
08:18:49lxdong_you said your daughter come from GuangDong?
08:22:55gokrYeah
08:23:00gokrBoth in fact
08:33:19lxdong_come to #nim-in-China, Iet's talk
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08:57:43lxdong_Arrrr
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09:23:00ArrrrHello there
09:23:12Arrrrkonichiwa
09:24:05lxdong_你好，I checked konichiwa means hello, Good morning say o ha you
09:24:49ArrrrYes, im greeting you
09:25:26r-kuisnt that japanese?
09:25:46lxdong_it is japanese
09:26:59lxdong_we talked about multi-culture benefits yesterday.
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09:29:39lxdong_I'm ready to get off work, you just get up
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09:31:47ArrrrNo, actually i was asleep for 2 hours, but i joined recently
09:31:53ArrrrIt is 10 am here
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09:35:32lxdong_from my aspect ,you are absent for a long time :)
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09:36:25ArrrrYes, we live in opposite worlds, my dearest nim-friend
09:40:23lxdong_I'm now living in Xi'an City, which is the Chinese Food original, if you travel here I can take you to eat Pita Bread Soaked in Lamb Soup,Chinese hamburger,Cold noddle with sesame etc.
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09:41:25lxdong_teach you Tai Chi too
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09:47:16ArrrrAh, that sounds like a good plan, food and philosophy. You can teach me chinese too.
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09:49:23lxdong_hope you are strong enough to learn chinese : )as I know it is the hardest without one of
09:50:05lxdong_Tai Chi is Kungfu as well as philosophy
09:52:34ArrrrAh, you want to teach me how to fight? Jesus, chinese people are really hospitable. In my home we give some beer and olives.
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10:24:33lxdong_share is the spirit of open source
10:25:43lxdong_you have beer and olives ,we have food ,Kungfu, eastern culture.
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10:33:17mat4lxdong_: Chinese is for sure a very different language to learn for people which speak a germanic or romanic language. However it seem to me easier to learn Chinese (which?) than Bask for example
10:35:53lxdong_https://www.facebook.com/shaw.d.liu
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10:37:41mat4thanks for the link
10:41:57lxdong_colleagues all leave, I'm off work, talking with you is my honor. see you later
10:43:22ArrrrSee you, and good luck.
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11:06:35coffeepotrandom question: why is string uninitialised by default when we have the {.noinit.} pragma? Is initialising strings a huge performance drop? Why would you declare a string and not initialise it - does the stdlib rely on checking for nil strings much? Just curious.
11:09:44coffeepotI would have assumed uninitialised strings would be in the minority of code, is this assumption wrong?
11:17:12flyxcoffeepot: I'd guess it *is* a performance drop as strings are heap object that need to be allocated if they're initialized
11:19:18coffeepothow common is it to declare a string then leave it nil, considering this means exceptions on access barring constantly checking for nil
11:19:58flyxI'd guess it's rather uncommon
11:20:36coffeepoti dunno, it's just a common pitfall for new ppl coming to Nim, and afaics there aren't many cases where you'd want to leave a declared string as nil. And we have {.noinit.} for those, rare cases (if it is in fact rare)
11:20:59flyxmost of my declarations are 'var foo = "value"' rather than 'var foo: string', and as long as you do that, you have an initialized string
11:21:40flyxbut yeah, it's an issue for strings in objects
11:23:22coffeepotI wonder if it's because var s = "" would double initialise, if a string is initialised on declare?
11:24:10coffeepotit's strange to me, as most other variables are initialised in Nim
11:24:23coffeepotbut I'm sure there is a reason
11:28:21coffeepotI mean, I appreciate it is a performance hit, as you say, if the string was never used (or double initialised), but not sure why you'd declare a var and not use it, or even why you'd rely on checking for a nil string when a bool might be better?
11:31:06coffeepotthen again, I suppose the same thing could be said for seq, but somehow that doesn't seem as bad, though I can't explain why XD
11:31:51mat4coffeepot: I remember a discussion here some time ago after asking the same question. This behaviour was justified for performance reasons and implementation effort (which I doubt is a problem)
11:32:58coffeepotcan definitely see why willy-nilly init of strings would be a performance hit, but then again, why would you declare a string and expect it to remain nil because of performance?
11:33:27mat4to be said, personally such behaviour do not make sense
11:33:31mat4for me
11:33:59mat4so I agree to see this as problematic
11:34:21ArrrrIt works as expected for a ref type i suppose
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11:35:34coffeepotI can see some examples where it might be useful as is, for example; strings/seq in objects, say if you have an error string that only gets set when there's an error or message. Then again, {.noinit.} remains and even in that scenario - barring some kind of hot loop generating such objects, it doesn't seem like the hit would be significant compared
11:35:34coffeepot to crashing due to a nil str
11:36:06coffeepotArrrr: works for ref type? As in ref types are nil by default?
11:37:00coffeepotthat seems a bit different, as it's more useful to be able to have a pointer to an object that might not be set. I think it's much rarer for strings to be kept as nil
11:37:06ArrrrYes, ref types are nil by default, the same with strings and seqs
11:37:46ArrrrYes, is not common, but people think about strings like refs types
11:37:56ArrrrWell, i do
11:38:07coffeepotmany data structures rely on being able to have nil refs, but do many rely on nil strings? Like I say just curious here.
11:40:01coffeepotyou're right it does fit with what's expected of a ref type. I think that's why I wouldn't extend it to seq. String though, somehow seems like a weird fit in a way. Perhaps it is just a combination of performance and consistency
11:43:22*coffeepot scratches head
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11:49:43mat4well, taking a side look at languages such as Vala or Genie, there exist a strict non-null mode in which every type defination is not nullable by default. Nullable definations must be explicitly declared as such
11:50:57coffeepotI think nim is moving in that direction
11:51:14mat4I hope so
11:51:15coffeepotit was mentioned that not nil would be the new default
11:51:25coffeepoti think it's just a case of working out the kinks
11:51:56coffeepotI guess in that scenario strings would be initialised. However, perhaps this would break existing code that relies on this propery
11:52:00coffeepotproperty
11:52:34coffeepotthere's a question on the forum actually asking why not nil didn't work
11:53:10coffeepotin an object variant
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12:04:09jubalhhello
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12:07:31coffeepothi jubalh :)
12:08:58jubalh:-)
12:09:16jubalhi have wanted to take a look at nim some months ago. and today it popped up again. today i will take the time :-)
12:09:30jubalhjust reading stuff and looking for a way in right now
12:10:14coffeepotenjoy! It's a great language. When you're familiar with the basics, I recommend checking out some of the metaprogramming capabilities and let your imagination run wild ;)
12:12:13jubalhi read an blog post from 2015 and would like to have your opinion if its still valid: https://gradha.github.io/articles/2015/02/goodbye-nim-and-good-luck.html
12:17:02lxdonglet your imagination run wild is a good phrase
12:21:20jubalhi saw that nim has channels now, so i guess that blogpost is not true anymore?
12:23:06coffeepotI was just going to say but was pulled away, yes this blog post is basically saying "nim hasn't got good enough concurrency primatives"
12:23:20coffeepotI haven't used channels, but I hear they are good enough right now
12:23:52coffeepotalso, check out the parallel construct: http://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#parallel-spawn
12:24:57coffeepotIMHO, having thread local GC is a really good way of doing things. There's no contention from the GC if running multiple threads, and I'd argue that data sharing should be as minimal as possible to keep thread performance up
12:26:24coffeepotwhere you need to share information, you can use channels, lock primatives in locks.nim, the parallel construct (which doesn't require locking at all IIRC), or use pointers and manage it yourself
12:27:32coffeepotif you're sharing stuff between threads, either you need to lock it, or copy it, basically (barring lockless data structures which afaik no one has written for nim yet)
12:28:00jubalhi see
12:28:43jubalhi have written some small programs in Go recently. And really liked the language. I havent had so much fun programming since a long time. Lets see how it will be with nim
12:31:23lxdongI'm using Go now, Nim seems will be better
12:32:53coffeepotI've not used Go, but Nim goes in the opposite direction in some ways. Whereas Go tries to give you as simple as possible framework (from what I've seen), Nim lets you do things like metaprogramming to create your own sub-languages such as DSLs for example
12:33:23coffeepothaving said that, Nim feels very 'simple' to use IMHO
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12:34:38coffeepotalso personally, I really, really love the way you can call procs using myProc(params) or params.myProc
12:37:02coffeepotso for example if you write a procedure 'doStuff' to take a string as a parameter, you can then do myString.doStuff, so it eliminates a lot of the need for binding methods to objects or having to create custom objects to attach your methods to
12:37:13coffeepotNim is also FAST :D
12:43:01coffeepotthere's loads of examples in http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Nim if you want to check out how Nim looks.
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12:45:56lxdongHalf a year ago I convinced CTO to transfer from Python to Golang mainly because the GIL which can't take advantage of modern cpu. Now I'm trying thought infiltration.
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12:48:42lxdongunfortunately, the environment of IT in China is still insular, far behind state-of-the art
12:51:03toddprattthey make everything and ship it out
12:52:33lxdongso-called world factory
12:53:44mat4lxdong: What's state-of-the-art at moment ?
12:54:35lxdongyou define
12:55:16lxdonglike why we are here
13:03:38jubalhlxdong: and now you are using go in your company?
13:04:04lxdongdefinitely.
13:04:48lxdongI brought Golang to my company.
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13:10:50lxdongNever will one language be perfect, dig deep.
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13:13:58dom96lxdong: now it's time to bring Nim into your company ;)
13:14:06dom96lxdong: How did you get in contact with Manning?
13:14:13dom96it may take them a while to reply
13:14:17lxdongno response
13:14:51lxdongI emailed three different department.
13:15:41dom96when did you email them?
13:17:16lxdongone yesterday afternoon,two today morning GTM+8
13:18:38dom96Give them time
13:18:57dom96You can't expect them to reply that quickly
13:20:08lxdongso be it
13:20:59lxdong96 is your birth year?
13:23:14dom96no
13:23:22dom96But it's close :P
13:24:18BitPuffinit's the 96th iteration of Dominik
13:24:19lxdongHeros come from the youth .for you
13:26:06mat4ciao
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13:26:47lxdongwhat does ciao mean?
13:26:53BitPuffinit means good bye
13:26:59BitPuffinin italian I think
13:27:06lxdongfrench?
13:27:19BitPuffinisn't that lik au revoir (butchered spelling)
13:27:31BitPuffinmy italian friend says ciao
13:27:36BitPuffinso I'd bet on italian :P
13:29:12lxdongit is the exact PinYin of a dirty word in Chinese like fuck...
13:29:23BitPuffinhaha
13:30:16lxdongI thought mat4 was unhappy.
13:30:40BitPuffinwell now you know
13:30:47BitPuffinwell
13:30:49BitPuffinmaybe he is
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13:38:29lxdongit remind me of a Golang test example in which appears ciao, at that time I thought what a cynical man to write this in an example.
13:39:07Arrrrlol
13:39:17Arrrrlxdong: are there any tutorials of nim in chinese?
13:39:50lxdongnot at all, I think I will be the first
13:41:31ArrrrIf you need any help, we are here waitting for the signal.
13:43:36lxdongI can handle as long as in my country,still thanks for your kindness.
13:44:42coffeepotis python popular in China?
13:45:34lxdongit is popular in my company at least.
13:46:21coffeepotI think Nim would appeal to many python devs :)
13:49:20lxdongnaturally it should be , unfortunately, the environment of IT in China is still insular,even the so-called CTO, I'm kind of torn.
13:51:55lxdongwe are out of date,we are happy, we call ourselves the leader of IoT intellectual parking.
13:53:39coffeepothey I still use Delphi at work so I can't complain :)
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13:54:56coffeepotofftopic, but I hear today that allen bauer has left now, so not sure how much longer Delphi will last :/
13:55:42coffeepotthere's not really anything that can replace it yet, unfortunately. C# I guess...
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13:59:04dom96coffeepot: that's very interesting. What does your company use it for?
13:59:57coffeepotdatabase stuff, desktop apps and web apps
14:02:44coffeepotfor writing windows apps, delphi is still the best choice IMO, plus you don't have to worry about huge .net redistributables. Having said that free pascal is pretty good these days
14:02:59coffeepotideally I'd be writing stuff in Nim tho ;)
14:10:38dom96You might need to worry about .net on older Windows machines, newer Windows bundles .net now doesn't it?
14:11:01dom96It would be cool to get Lazarus for Nim.
14:11:08dom96Araq would definitely love to see that
14:13:02coffeepotdom96 sure, but when you're supporting wide and varied clients, especially when they have their computers locked down, installing another framework is just more hassle. AIUI, different version of c# have different .net libraries that are not compatible so at some stage some installing would need to be done. If they truly are, however, installed wit
14:13:02coffeepoth all versions of windows past and including windows 7 then I guess it isn't a concern.
14:13:37coffeepotI do hear good things about c# though so you know, maybe I'm just being awkward about it!
14:14:00coffeepotlazarus for nim - as in pascal running in nim or visa versa?
14:14:16gokrC# is not all that bad. It's better than Java.
14:14:22dom96The reason I originally left .NET is because of no support for platforms other than Windows.
14:14:26dom96But boy has that changed...
14:14:40coffeepotyeah right! Kudos to MS for opening it up
14:14:51gokrAnd mono is quite impressive.
14:14:55coffeepotto be fair I never hear much bad said against c#
14:15:01flyxMono is a pain in the ass
14:15:17flyxI used it for my diploma thesis
14:15:27coffeepotflyx: how so?
14:15:34gokryeah?
14:16:04dom96That was my impression with Mono as well, but I haven't used it much (and its been almost 5 years since I've used it)
14:16:32flyxwell, their IDE tends to crash a lot and is awkward when it doesn't. Mono doesn't provide everything .NET provides, but instead provides other things which are not there in .NET
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14:16:49flyxporting between Mono and .NET is a lot of work
14:17:40flyxit got better on OSX shortly before I stopped using it, so some of these things may not be valid now
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14:18:04gokrBut.. that depends I guess what you expect it to be. If you expect it to be compatible, then I understand. But you can use Mono only, right?
14:18:15flyxbut as far as I know, WPF is still not available for Mono, Windows Forms is just ugly, and don't let me get started about Gtk#
14:20:16flyxyou can probably use only Mono, I guess. but if you want the software to run on Windows, you should target .NET, because no Windows user wants to install Mono
14:20:45flyxI guess Xamarin's focus is more on mobile development nowadays
14:21:16coffeepotapparently the next verison of delphi allows cross compilation to linux servers, woo! XD
14:21:59coffeepothopefully it'll be more successful that kylix
14:23:10coffeepotthat's another thing that put me off c#, they had WPF then depreciated it for win forms (or the other way round). That'd pee me right off if I was developing windows apps
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14:24:01coffeepotit's a shame it's not easy to make a desktop gui designer for Nim. I think it'd be hard NOT to use it in that case :)
14:24:19coffeepoteven if it were just gtk
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14:26:20coffeepothaving said that, i'm sure I saw something on the forums where someone was making a dsl for gtx in nim
14:33:25dom96I feel like nowadays desktop GUI designers would not be in as much of a demand, everything revolves around the web now. Many new desktop applications just embed webkit and call it a day.
14:34:26federico3Urgh
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14:39:20Varriountcoffeepot: Well, the crowning achievment would be a real Qt library for Nim.
14:39:43VarriountThat way we could just use Qt designer.
14:44:01VarriountAlthough.. Didn't Araq make a WxWidgets wrapper?
14:48:55coffeepotVarriount if I could use qt designer with Nim, that would be very interesting and I'd probably start writing random desktop apps at home! dom96: I'm not a fan of embedding web stuff for GUIs, personally. Although I am a fan of the idea of having a module you can include that allows web based debugging. Saw an interesting article on that (which I ca
14:48:55coffeepotn't find now). The idea was your program runs as normal but you can access exposed fields in a local web page. Seemed pretty cool and I'm sure Nim would work well with that kind of thing.
14:50:00Varriountcoffeepot: The problem with Qt is that in addition to the general non-interoperability of C++, you also have the special tooling required.
14:50:38coffeepotVarriount nothing's ever simple when it comes to computers, is it! XD
14:51:06Varriountcoffeepot: Yeah, but making a wrapper for Qt - How would you start?
14:51:13dom96coffeepot: Yeah, i'm not a fan of it either. But someday there will be an OS which will just provide a GUI API based on HTML/CSS/JS.
14:51:30dom96Maybe that would make this mess a bit more efficient :P
14:51:36coffeepotvarriount: I have no idea, I've not even used Qt
14:51:37Varriountdom96: Already done. Windows allows native html scripts and such.
14:51:48coffeepotdom96: I think that's what they planned with windows 10
14:51:54dom96I'm currently running Slack, Spotify and Steam which are all running their own instance of webkit IIRC.
14:52:13coffeepotI remember there being a lot of talk about desktop programs all being written in html5 o_O
14:52:39coffeepotI think atom uses a web interface. It's a bit slow and clunky (IMO)
14:53:04coffeepothaving said that, I still use it!
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14:57:05Varriount<3 Sublime Text
14:58:24coffeepotI'm thinking of moving to VSCode, which I think is based on sublime
14:58:27coffeepotvery fast
14:58:42coffeepotcurious if I can get debugging working with it. That'd be so sweet
14:59:25coffeepotthe differences between sublime and atom are a good example of why native > web for desktop
15:04:12flyxVSCode is actually based on Electron, which is also the base for Atom
15:04:36flyxit's basically a headless Chrome, just like Atom
15:04:40coffeepotHa! Well that completely goes against what I assumed then! XD
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15:04:52coffeepotWeb is ready for desktop! Web is ready for desktop! XD
15:07:09coffeepoti wonder what makes the huge difference in speed between the two
15:07:49flyxone is developed by folks who normally write ruby?
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15:07:50flyxscnr
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15:11:15coffeepotis it me or is ruby very slow?
15:13:02coffeepotanyway, I guess this is moving way off topic here.
15:14:21coffeepotI wonder if it'd be practical to write a gui framework using opengl or vulkan for nim
15:14:51coffeepoteven mobiles support opengl these days
15:17:08coffeepotflyx: Ha I just realised what you meant by scnr :P
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15:38:07yglukhovcoffeepot: nimx is opengl ui. i wonder if its practical too...
15:40:45coffeepotyglukhov wow that's really cool! :D
15:41:17coffeepothave you used it for any apps yet?
15:45:27coffeepotbtw your live demo isn't working
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15:51:00coffeepothmm I wonder how easy it'd be to have a nimx window displaying controls, and allow a user to drag them about, producing a creation script with live feedback
15:51:21coffeepot'cos I mean, that's the crux of why delphi is so fast at prototyping
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15:59:06yglukhovcoffeepot, yeah, live demo went offline with recent build scripts update. will look into it.
16:01:24yglukhovthere is no visual editor yet. so its not like delphi yet. layout system is based on autoresizing masks, like in Apple Appkit/UIKit prior to Cocoa autolayout. The system is pretty simple and not that flexible, but it works in 95% cases =)
16:02:26yglukhovwe use it for our internal tooling for a game we do. and the game itself is partially based on nimx as well.
16:03:04yglukhovthe other big part is rod engine, which is a scene graph graphics engine.
16:03:29yglukhovwe're now struggling to implement some batching, because fps sucks on mobiles.
16:04:49yglukhovbtw i would welcome some help from a game engine expert to have a glance at what were doing wrong ;)
16:08:37federico3coffeepot: why exposing the internals through web instead of debugging console?
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16:11:34ArrrrAre you hosting the project on github yglukhov ?
16:12:10yglukhovsome of them, yes =)
16:12:51yglukhovrod and nimx specifically. also the sound lib is in nimble packages. it provides simplistic sound mixer api for all the platforms including js
16:14:36ArrrrYour live demo is not working http://yglukhov.github.io/nimx/livedemo/main.html
16:14:47Arrrrbtw the new nimble tags are great
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16:20:16yglukhovthats thanks to dom96 =)
16:20:29yglukhovfixing live demo now
16:22:07coffeepotyglukhov: Well this sounds really very interesting indeed! You mention there is no live designed "yet", does this mean there might be? :3
16:24:13coffeepotfederico3: Exposing internals through web vs debugging: Read a great article on this ages ago, wish I could find it. The basic benefits over console are that you can easily configure watches and view locals as the program is running in a structured format, draw graphs, highlight things easily. It also means you can allow visibility over the net for
16:24:13coffeepot live debugging with clients (assuming ssl or something). It is a huge improvement over the console imo
16:24:18yglukhovyup. it should be pretty easy to implement the basic designer functionality, however thats not a priority right now. also like i said i havent made up my mind if im happy with the layout system.
16:24:45gokryglukhov: Are we talking 3D?
16:24:56federico3coffeepot: why putting the graph drawing stuff inside the application instead of using an external tool?
16:25:25federico3the client can be remote and talk to the console
16:25:30coffeepotyglukhov: Are you planning/does it support embedding controls inside each other?
16:26:53coffeepotfederico3: You can use external tools of course, I use one at work for this very reason. But I feel that you have way more options/control for displaying data and interacting with it with a web interface.
16:27:03yglukhovgokr: hmm... both, i guess.. nimx is more of a ui lib, so its 2d views hierarchy. but the rendering context supports 3d transforms as well. rod on the other hand is a 3d scene graph engine. but it may be intermixed with nimx, by attaching nimx views to ui_component of a rod node.
16:27:26gokryglukhov: I am just wondering if/how it would contrast with Urho3D.
16:28:20yglukhovurho is much more mature i would say =).
16:28:32gokrMe and Andreas worked quite some bit with Urho3D last year and it is a damn fine engine. Also runs via SDL2 and also runs on mobile etc.
16:28:33coffeepotfederico3 I'd expect that the program would just expose relevant data and the web interface would be the one that did the graphing, similar to an external tool
16:29:11gokrI also know that the Urho3D guys are working on a new UI kit that is integrated in the regular scene graph.
16:29:26federico3coffeepot: sounds like a debugging console + a webapp running on the same host :)
16:30:04coffeepotfederico3 yep, pretty much!
16:30:33coffeepotprobably not ideal for some applications, but it'd be nice to be able to switch on and stream results if there's an issue at a client's.
16:31:15yglukhovok, but there's one serious flaw in urho. its not nim :D and by that i mean that dependency management is a pain. compiling to webgl gets trickier. did i mention its not nim?
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16:34:18gokrIt's not nim, but we wrapped it.
16:35:26gokrDependency management? Urho3D is fully set up for you out-of-the-box with CMake, so... that was not a problem we experienced.
16:35:42gokrWe have some examples in the Urhonimo repo.
16:37:15gokrThe wrapper could always be improved of course, but I think Andreas (and me too) can help if people start using it. And ... IMHO that kind of engine... it's a HUGE amount of work to duplicate such a beast. And you end up wanting Bullet or Assimp anyway in order to reap all that work.
16:37:34gokrJust my 2 cents of course, doing cool stuff in pure Nim is also fun! ;)
16:37:58coffeepotdoes urho32 support bullet?
16:38:05gokrIt's all integrated.
16:38:05coffeepotand voxels?
16:38:39gokrVoxels... well... there are experiments in that direction, but Urho3D is not a voxel engine out-of-the box so to speak.
16:39:02gokrBut I do recall one of the devs experimenting in that direction - there is some video somewhere...
16:39:09coffeepotsounds promising :)
16:39:27gokrWhen we used Urho3D we used the physics engine in full.
16:39:28coffeepoti've wanted to write a voxel engine for a while but failed to get it running properly
16:39:37gokrLet me find that stuff, one sec
16:42:01gokrhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkQVUcNouno
16:42:21yglukhovgokr, well, you know how it starts. initially we were not planning to do an engine at all. started with 2d sprites in almost pure opengl. eventually we figured that it would be nice to export scenes from after effects automatically. and thats where nodes came in. then added some effects. thats where components appeared. then we figured its time to factor this stuff to a separate repo on github. also we run in webgl using nim js backend
16:42:21yglukhov. i guess its too late to reconsider :D
16:42:43gokrOne of my silly movies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-L48odBBCE
16:43:04gokrAlthough the avatar there is actually faulty - it looked better later on when we used the proper format.
16:43:26gokrHehe, yeah.
16:43:34gokrThe Urho3D examples are online btw via emscripten
16:43:35coffeepotgokr that looks promising, can you easily 'destroy' and create voxels?
16:43:53coffeepotI want to make a game that involves lots of dynamic voxel stuff
16:44:03gokrNo idea, but join #urho3d and... talk to...
16:44:37gokrhmmm, he is not there, but chrisman IIRC. Chris Friesen.
16:44:49coffeepotawesome :)
16:44:51*gokr noting that Araq hangs there too still :)
16:45:12gokrThe guys at #urho3d are really nice and sharp guys.
16:45:34gokrThe engine is quite advanced and very nice to work with - since it is a "library" and not a "framework" so to speak.
16:46:33gokrAnd do take Urhonimo for a spin - the Nim examples are fairly advanced: https://github.com/3dicc/Urhonimo/tree/master/examples
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16:46:57coffeepotI've got some stuff I'm working on atm but will definitely look into it. I'm kind of just learning the basics of shaders atm so that's a few projects away
16:47:16gokrcoffeepot: Urho3D has tons of cool shader stuff in it.
16:47:33gokrReally good AA, bloom etc
16:48:04gokrAnd it supports both OpenGL and DirectX which was a great thing for us - since being OpenGL only is a PITA for Windows users.
16:48:05coffeepotI'm thinking more procedural shaders, but tbh I bet urho3d does it better than me lol
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16:48:40gokrYou can always search their forum, lots of nice info there.
16:49:23gokrAnd although Urho3D has so many moving parts - it was always trivial to build.
16:49:36gokrBecause they have it all included in the box.
16:49:54r-kuwrapper wasnt updated in almost a year. you guys use old version of urho too?
16:50:26gokrI know, it hasn't been updated - because 3DICC isn't working on that stuff anymore. Hopefully sometime in the future it may get picked up again. BUT...
16:50:41gokr...Araq could probably help out in regenerating it for current version.
16:50:48gokrIt was almost fully automated.
16:50:53r-kui see
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17:12:01gokrHmmm, my laptop did a spontaneous hard reset. Spooky.
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19:20:31ldleworkI'm getting the following when using doc2, atlases.nim(9, 1) Error: grid table is not implemented
19:20:57ldleworkthis is the start of the file, https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/2f3de46faf1c66bfd37b
19:22:17def-so grid table should be implemented in rst.nim
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19:43:30ldleworkAnyone know where fowl's interface implementation is? I can't seem to locate it.
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20:57:49bbl_It's a bit odd that typedesc parameter can't be used for type conversion
20:58:42ldleworkbbl_: I guess typedesc as a thing itself is kind of a hack in the compiler
20:59:03bbl_ldlework: oh :P
20:59:12bbl_was able to work around that with a helper function
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21:41:28federico3how can I get nimvim to compile a file?
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22:35:43Varriount_Araq: I'm trying to compile the wxnim examples, and the compiler is throwing a segfault. Where should I report this?
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23:31:10Varriountldlework: How are things going?
23:31:22ldleworkVarriount: pretty good
23:31:31ldleworkbeen documenting
23:31:37ldleworkwriting a few unit tests
23:31:59Varriountldlework: Do you think your engine will support isometric tiles?
23:32:09ldleworkVarriount: I don't know anything about it
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