<< 23-07-2015 >>
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05:49:19Araqhey filwit
05:49:27filwithey Araq
05:49:52filwitglad you're around, i was curious about how Nim's GC scans the stack
05:50:46filwitnamely, how it understands what is or isn't a GC reference.. or does it simply assume anything that looks like a reference into the heap is?
05:51:02Araqyup, the latter
05:51:16Araqit's called "conservative stack scanning"
05:51:35Araqbut the rest of the GC is not conservative and so it's workable
05:52:07filwitokay, cool.. that's was my best. thanks, that makes sense
05:52:15Araqit's not hard to make it precise. but it's hard to make it precise and keep it as efficient as it currently is.
05:53:12filwitmaking it percise would mean putting a bitvector (or something) on the front of the stack which represents GCref positions.. or something along those lines?
05:53:33Araqyeah that's one way to do it
05:54:35filwitk, just getting a grasp for these things. thanks for the insight.
05:56:13filwitbtw, do you already know about the bug with .pure. objects not working with object constructors (need to test this again with the latest compiler) or should I report it?
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05:59:13Araqquite sure they do work
05:59:53filwityeah it was failing for me the other day, but I'm testing it again now.
06:00:33filwitjust pulled and now my code is breaking on something else though :\
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06:01:14fowlIs Pure inheritance intended to work
06:01:27filwitoh, it's been awhile since I've been around and looks like a few things have changed (love the colors, btw).. what happened with 'unsigned'.. says it's depreciated.. that get moved into 'system' or something?
06:01:39filwitfowl: it works fine
06:01:58fowlfilwit except that it doesnt
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06:02:10fowlNo 'of', no methods
06:02:30Araqbut it errors at compile-time, right?
06:02:59Araqfowl: it's the nature of .pure to have no type information, so how would 'of' and methods work?
06:03:10fowlI dont know what tenuous definition youre using for works
06:03:42fowlAraq well what exactly works about the feature without of/methods
06:03:56filwitI'm still trying to fix the bug that just cropped up, then I'll test pure objects a bit.. before everything was working well (yes i'm pretty sure it gave compile-time errors with 'of')
06:04:36filwitfowl: you can still do 'of', but only "downwards" not "upwards"... if that makes sense
06:05:17Araqfowl: it works in that there is a subtyping relation. so wrappers can use .pure, inheritable and it works out nicely.
06:05:22filwitfowl: down the type chain.. not up it.. so you can't take a 'Animal' and check if it's 'of Dog' but you can check if 'Dog of Animal'
06:06:00Araqall of Urhonimo depends on this ...
06:06:51fowlfilwit sounds very useful lol
06:07:38Araqfowl: having a bad hair day? stop the trolling please and tell us what your problem is
06:08:11filwityeah it's really nice you can do that in Nim.. other languages (I know of) can only do full inheritance (with typedesc data) or non at all (structs, final/sealed classes)
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06:10:17filwityeah it's really nice you can do that in Nim.. other languages (I know of) can only do full inheritance (with typedesc data) or non at all (structs, final/sealed classes)
06:10:57filwitdammit I always do that when terminal and hexchat are open and I use alt-tab too fast...
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06:11:36Araqwe made him leave ... :-/
06:12:10filwiti didn't think his comment was 'trollish' but I just got here so didn't want to comment..
06:12:32Araqok, ok *I* made him leave
06:12:37filwitlol
06:13:08cazovyour moderator isn't here to smooth things over
06:13:13filwitanyways, how are things? I noticed the Nim forum is almost at 9k posts and 850 users (damn!)
06:14:00AraqI'm trying hard to convince people to use Nim in production here
06:16:57filwitwhat changed with unsigned? is that now part of 'system' or something?
06:17:04Araqfilwit: I'm at OSCON 2015 in Portland
06:17:12Araq(yes, it's part of system now)
06:17:29filwitreally? That's cool! (about OSCON)
06:17:39filwithow are you liking the great north west?
06:17:45filwitthis is where I grew up
06:17:52filwit(mostly)
06:18:02filwitportland/salem/eugene
06:18:25filwitit's too wet for most of the year here, but we have a lot of good outdoor places
06:18:38Araqit's great, I'm drunk most of the time (just kidding)
06:18:52cazovif you like sour beer, cascade brewing is pretty fantastic
06:19:47filwithow is the conference going? i saw your post about it on the forums a bit ago, but I can't make it, unfortunately (even thought it's very close to me right now)
06:20:00filwiti forgot the dates though..
06:20:17filwitokay, ends this friday
06:20:29Araqwell better hurry
06:20:33filwithave you given your presentation yet?
06:20:39Araqyeah
06:21:20Araqwent well
06:22:05filwitnice. had to have been tough doing a 3hr lecture..
06:23:12filwiti hope it was recorded so I can watch it at some point. are you scheduled to do any more? and when are you leaving? I don't have a ton of time but maybe we could meet up in portland for lunch or something.
06:23:32filwitwould be pretty cool
06:23:46Araqyeah was recorded, sure we can meet. let's see
06:25:11Araqoh yay, my flight back is at 22:00, so I actually have almost the full friday too
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06:28:23filwitawesome. I'm not sure what the best day for you is. My sister's husband's office is up in Portland (he does signs and 3d printed stuff) and I was planning on going up there to help him with a few things soon.. so let me talk to him first before we set a day.
06:29:44filwitanyways, I'll hang around here the next few days and we can figure it out
06:30:53filwitare you attending the rest of OSCON or are you pretty much free?
06:32:49AraqI'm attending but I can leave whenever I want to
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06:35:43filwitcool :) Okay, I'll just let you know when I'm heading up (probably friday). Will be fun to discuss Nim stuff in person, lol.
06:37:16Araqok
06:38:17veganskAraq, hi! About conviction: please merge https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/3137 , we really need it in production!
06:42:21Araqok but your test sucks ;-)
06:43:21r-kuAraq regarding stackMarkCosts and stackSize().. why should it return size of current stack? after all we scan all stacks so would it not make more sense return combined size of all stacks? (start-current_top on x86)
06:43:59Araqyeah you're right
06:45:10r-kuokie. have any idea if it will still behave correctly with lots of stacks?
06:46:27Araqit is only a heuristic anyway
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07:22:50baabelfishhttps://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/master/lib/pure/collections/lists.nim#L24 why isn't the type just SinglyLinkedNode[T]?
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07:29:47baabelfishsomeone should write a tutorial comparing reference/pointer usage in nim and c++
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07:54:11r-kuAraq should i also add coro support to whatever gc is in gc2.nim?
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08:47:37federico3do we need something like https://readthedocs.org/ for Nim?
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10:28:49dgellow> someone should write a tutorial comparing reference/pointer usage in nim and c++
10:28:50dgellowOh yes. It's totally something i'm looking for.
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10:45:25reactormonkdgellow, start writing, we'll correct technicalitites ;-)
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11:36:37federico3any Nim library comparable to pygame?
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11:39:38fowlfederico3 pygame is an interface to sdl
11:40:13federico3fowl: I mean a simple 2d game framework
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11:45:01fowlTheres nimgame, nimx has nice cocoa-like gui
11:46:32fowlI used pygame when i was younger and when i looked at it recently it really just a wrapper for SDL, theres no physics or many of the other things you need in a game
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11:54:25federico3nimgame looks unmaintained :-/
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12:05:10drewsremfowl, is entoody unmaintained? - are you still using it?
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12:12:06fowldrewsrem i dont use it currently, i can make fixes though if anybody reports any issues. I consider it to be done until someone finds a bug
12:12:26drewsremfowl, the bitbucket repo imports maybe_t which isn't part of it
12:13:29drewsremfowl, why don't you use it?
12:14:29fowlMaybe_t is in the nimlibs package
12:15:14fowldrewsrem it became the base of my programming language, im just not writing any games atm
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12:15:38drewsremfowl, your programming language?
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12:15:59drewsremfowl, it still can't find: "just" and "nothing"
12:16:31drewsremfowl, nvm, that's when isMainModule
12:16:36fowlOk i will fix it to use the new stdlib optional type
12:17:22drewsremfowl, thanks, you're working on your own programming language?
12:17:53drewsremfowl, you should have a blog so people can stalk your work :)
12:20:05fowldrewsrem nah everything is on my github. I hate writing
12:20:14drewsremfowl, gotcha
12:22:14fowlI put the language aside to work on gui stuff. Im trying to impress someone into hiring me
12:22:39drewsremfowl, makes sense
12:22:49drewsremfowl, gui stuff on Nim?
12:23:11drewsremI've seen your nanovg wrapper
12:23:26drewsremGUI stuff seems really painful
12:28:58fowlTrying to write it so its not required to position ui elements yourself
12:32:39drewsremnice, btw. t1/t2 in tests don't compile, essentially when it defines a proc with e.g. unicast pragma and then calls defMsg on that proc I get "undeclared identifier: MSG_proc" - where proc is some Message
12:35:45drewsremfowl, the example on bitbucket in the readme doesn't work either, same problem, e.g. "undeclared identifier: MSG_getposition"
12:36:54fowldrewsrem if you define debug does it print out the ast where msg_x is generated
12:38:29drewsremfowl, http://ix.io/jTo
12:38:47drewsremI actually didn't run it, just the error my IDE threw at me
12:40:44fowlthe way that nim calls macros as pragmas might have changed, ill look at it when im inside
12:41:30drewsremfowl, thanks, all I did was clone entoody then copy over the maybe_t.nim, comment out then when isMainModule stuff in it, then copy over the example in bitbuckets readme.md into example.nim and tried to run it
13:15:29avsejflaviu, without this patch tests for options.nim fail at the moment: https://gist.github.com/avsej/df0ab2e03eda94a3aca8
13:15:50fowldrewsrem, i fixed it but something changed with compiletime variables and there are new bugs
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13:16:54drewsremfowl, I see
13:17:30drewsremfowl, should I go look for them?
13:20:24fowldrewsrem, see if you can make this work or report it as a error https://gist.github.com/fowlmouth/104bf402de6ebd343b75
13:20:39fowlshould print 0 1
13:20:50Araqr-ku: don't mess with gc2, we should remove it
13:21:00drewsremfowl, outputs 0/n0
13:21:17drewsremah, I'm not on current commit however
13:21:28drewsremsec
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13:23:52fowlit fails for me on the latest version
13:24:47drewsremAraq, is there something like multiple-passes for macros? - I'm basically trying to have two macros foo and bar, where in the first pass, it runs through my module expanding all the calls to foo and then on a second pass expand all the calls to bar - does this make any sense?
13:24:51drewsremfowl, updating nim now
13:25:33drewsremAraq, essentially bar-calls want to know how many foo-calls in the module are made
13:25:53r-kuAraq thats what i suspected hehe. so i had to patch just gc.nim and gc_ms.nim? no others?
13:26:13drewsremfowl, mhm, updated to latest, still outputs 0 0
13:26:28Araqr-ku: yeah
13:27:01Araqdrewsrem: meh, I can give you macros.getImpl() to access the body of a proc. **if** available
13:27:48r-kuyou can skim through my gc.nim changes then https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/compare/devel...r-ku:coroutines#diff-cac4e534e62c32ea5e16c004b6401610R16
13:27:54r-kusee if i did anything retarded
13:28:38drewsremAraq, I'm not following you :|
13:28:58drewsremAraq, but I take there's no way to currently do this
13:29:41Araqdrewsrem: not sure. why doesn't it work?
13:29:55Araqr-ku: yay, gc_common!
13:30:56Araqr-ku: you should learn how to traverse lists though ;-)
13:31:19r-kuwell.. maybe i should have used lists from stdlib
13:31:24r-kubut they are not available for gc i bet
13:31:26Araqproc len(stack) is way more complicated than it needs to be
13:31:38r-kuand whats wrong w/ my lists?
13:31:39fowldrewsrem, there is
13:31:46Araqyeah plus you cannot use 'import' from system.nim
13:31:59drewsremAraq, essentially I was trying to have some kind of symbol-table, it's like the hoisting example in the manual, only that it remembers the result for every input, so say some module uses some regexes in its code, the behavior I want is to fill an array of fixed size with all the various inputs of the regex-calls at init and replace all the re"pattern" expressions in the code with expressions that take the corresponding result
13:31:59drewsremfrom the array
13:32:17fowldrewsrem, if this compile time var bug didnt exist i could show you easily
13:32:37drewsremfowl, oh nice, that'd be lovely
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13:33:52drewsremEssentially I'm trying to buffer proc-calls that have the same input at compile time
13:34:07drewsremnot quite actually, they're initialized at runtime
13:35:03drewsremIt's hard when you're not equipped with a vocabulary to adequately express the thoughts in your head
13:36:59fowlimagine a(b(...)) if a and b are macros, if a is eager (untyped) then it will receive b(...) but if a is typed it will receive the result of b(...)
13:38:01drewsremI'm following you
13:38:19Araqr-ku: "# identical fastcall calling convention on all x86 OS" er no, not for Borland, but we don't support Borland anymore anyway
13:44:32fowldrewsrem, this is how you can stack macro calls, another possibility is that b(...) returns some code wrapped in a call to a()
13:45:12Araqr-ku: isOnStack doesnt use the local stackTop
13:45:24fowldrewsrem, i do some of that here https://bitbucket.org/fowlsoft/interfaces/wiki/browse/
13:47:23r-kuAraq does it matter really? if p passed to isOnStack() is beyond current stack top then its essentially no longer used value
13:48:30Araqdepends on when you set the current stack top
13:49:02avsejAraq, without such patch options.nim does not compiles. https://gist.github.com/avsej/df0ab2e03eda94a3aca8 why it does not allow access specifier on inner templates?
13:49:20drewsremfowl, thanks I'll look into it
13:49:27r-kuerr not sure what that means
13:49:34r-kuoh didnt you say isOnStack() should check all stacks?
13:50:52Araqr-ku: yes but the currently active stack is special
13:51:27Araqavsej: oh good catch, didn't realize I broke unittest.nim
13:51:35r-kui dont know these secret details :|
13:51:37Araqbut it's fine without the stars, right?
13:52:00avsejyes
13:52:03avsejit works
13:52:04Araqr-ku: well I dunno, your solution could be fine
13:52:46*r-ku keeps fingers crossed it doesnt backfire
13:53:40Araqr-ku: to be able to merge your stuff you need to keep quite a few changes behind a 'when defined(nimcoroutines)'
13:55:12r-kuyou want that single stack functionality available too?
13:55:21Araqyeah
13:55:32Araqit's highly risky stuff
13:55:44r-kuyeah makes sense, will do it
13:55:54Araqyou introduce a dependency to fasm, for example
13:55:56drewsremfowl, example of what I'm thinking about: http://ix.io/jTt
13:56:25Araqavsej: can you please create a PR?
13:56:55r-kuill redo entire git history too, lots of garbage in there.. we dont want that in main repo ^_^
13:57:08drewsremfowl, just look at when isMainModule I guess :)
13:57:10r-kuwell not entire entire history, i menat only my commits
14:01:21avsejAraq, https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/3142/files
14:08:34fowldrewsrem the def macro would take the addOrGetfoo calls as a statement list that way the compiletime array is filled out before when defFoos() is called
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14:19:59drewsremfowl, I'm expressing my problem badly, but the addOrGetFoo macro should actually be just named foo, the idea is that the calls to foo are sprinkled all over the codebase
14:20:48drewsremfowl, think of compiling regexes, foo is basically compileRegex, so people use it normally not knowing that calls to it actually return the cached-version from an array
14:20:55drewsremfowl, I'm going to rethink this thing
14:21:11drewsremso that it's actually possible to understand
14:26:15avsejAraq, my builds are green again: https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/avsej/nim-devel/build/105290/ thank you
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16:18:00sparrkIf I'd like to solve this one here: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/3130 I can do so by just adding a simple explanation onto the end of this section here: http://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#types-reference-and-pointer-types is that the right place for it?
16:20:33sparrkI'm grabbing lunch now, but I log this IRC channel feel free to drop me an opinion
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17:00:58Demoscan we talk about header?
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18:31:51vbtthello
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18:32:08vbtti've seen a few mentions of coroutines in irc recently but don't know the whole story
18:32:28vbttanyone care to give a quick update on what it's about?
18:33:01vbtti'm quite interested in it personally but i thought async/await was it.
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19:11:35dom96vbtt: I believe r-ku is working on making Nim's closure iterators work more like traditional coroutines, but I don't know the full details.
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19:32:10vbttthanks dom96
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19:36:05flaviuooh, looks like lots of work has been going into turning tests green recently :)
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22:37:42vbttr-ku:are you around?
22:49:26dom96For anyone wanting to see Araq's tutorial at OSCON, keep a watch on this: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL055Epbe6d5YhDchEvY3O4nIuSLYyrx7K
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22:52:40Araqvbtt: hey
22:55:32Demoswhat time will it be up?
22:59:35dom96we have no idea
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23:24:18filwitdom96: thanks for the link
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23:32:15filwitrepr no longer works with typedesc...
23:32:33filwitis this a bug or did something change with 'repr' I should be aware of?
23:33:06filwiterr wait.. let me repull devel and make sure it didn't just get fixed (it just broke recently)
23:33:36Araqhrm? did it ever work?
23:33:44Araqmy fix got rid of the crashes
23:34:15filwityes.. i was relying on T.repr to get the specific name of a type passed to a generic proc
23:34:23filwitis there a better way to do that?
23:34:47Araqtypetraits.name ?
23:34:58filwitahh... of course..
23:36:48*Araq hates 'repr'
23:38:55filwitwell it's use is somewhat unclear, that's for sure
23:39:15filwitit should work with NimNode still though, right?
23:39:24Araqit has 2 or 3 totally different implementations
23:39:31Araqyeah
23:40:04AraqI wonder if we can deprecate 'repr'.
23:41:07filwitwell i've been using it a lot inside macros.. but am open to better alternatives
23:41:24Araq$ for NimNode should be it.
23:41:31filwitk
23:41:33Araqcurrently $ for NimNode sucks
23:41:44Araqbut it should really work like 'repr'
23:41:46filwityeah.. i think that's the reason i wasn't using it
23:42:16filwiti think i tried $ a few times and the result was not the same as repr
23:42:31Araqno it isn't.
23:42:44filwitk
23:44:41vbttAraq:hi
23:45:23Araqso ... soon only lambda lifting bugs are left :-/
23:46:36Araqand perhaps nasty GC bugs.
23:46:50filwithow many nasty GC bugs exist?
23:47:36Araq3
23:47:54*Araq is looking for a challenge
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23:55:38Araqok, time to get drunk. see you later.
23:55:50filwithaha, later
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