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01:23:41 | fowl | what happened to the gb emulator in tests/manyloc? |
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02:15:30 | reactormonk | Araq, so no JS fixing :-( |
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03:52:24 | reactormonk | Araq, and if you want that coin, gimme a wallet id |
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10:40:00 | dom96 | fowl: I deleted it. |
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12:14:26 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod db88c4c Araq [+2 ±3 -0]: fixes #376 |
12:14:26 | NimBot | Araq/Nimrod a93a252 Araq [+0 ±4 -5]: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:Araq/Nimrod |
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14:18:22 | exhu | omg, http://suckless.org/sucks |
14:23:14 | exhu | "Write the most useful unix userland commands in the new Go language created by Google to form a robust base for future Unix-like userlands that do not suffer from the vulnerabilities that are common in C or C++ code.", the go language got so much hype already? |
14:24:31 | dom96 | yep, it's irritating isn't it? |
14:24:32 | gour | go { hype: overflow; } |
14:31:22 | gour | erlang is not at all, afaict, speed daemon, but it has wx bindings :-/ |
14:35:02 | exhu | i still can't make myself finish writing that damn macros in nimrod... |
14:35:58 | exhu | procrastination is the root of all evil -) |
14:44:05 | gour | exhu: from which language(s) you've arrived to nimrod? |
14:44:18 | exhu | i get "Error: invalid visibility: '*'" for type |
14:44:18 | exhu | TDirEntryDesc* = tuple inside dumpTree |
14:44:48 | exhu | gour, i earn my living as c++ progrm |
14:45:19 | gour | exhu: ohh, so lookingo for adequate replacement ;) |
14:46:01 | exhu | gour, yes, at least for hobby projects and tools |
14:46:33 | gour | exhu: does your hobby projects/tools involve gui? |
14:49:10 | exhu | gour, i used fltk for gui once for a quick and dirty game level editor -) |
14:49:41 | gour | exhu: what would you use in nimrod? |
14:50:01 | exhu | after finishing db app in nimrod i plan to write a gui using opengl, i like allegro5 c library, probably would write some binding for nimrod to use it. |
14:50:28 | gour | exhu: have you considered D? |
14:50:36 | exhu | gour, it seems there's no better alternative than gtk for nimrod now |
14:51:17 | exhu | gour, i tried D several times, it changed rapidly and i become bored. |
14:51:24 | gour | yep, and gtk is seemingly becoming linux-only lib |
14:52:44 | exhu | gour, there's no good gui library for all needs available, you either link to a monster qt or tiny fltk, and they're all c++ |
14:53:29 | gour | exhu: heh..problem is they're c++ and i do not want to return to it |
14:53:51 | exhu | it's all about hardware acceleration nowadays, so i don't feel like writing a common gui library. |
14:54:25 | exhu | fltk's c++ is minimalistic |
14:55:26 | exhu | but fltk is rather limited too |
14:55:35 | gour | if there would be nimrod bindings for ir and/or some interest...it seems that desktop apps is not nimrod's niche |
14:56:30 | exhu | c++ bindings are painfully depressing to write |
14:56:50 | * | gour nods...even with swig |
14:57:35 | exhu | i'd better write gui part in c++ |
14:57:54 | exhu | and the logic in nimrod |
14:58:15 | gour | but by glueing the two, one loses nimrod's type-safety |
14:59:23 | gour | in that case i could use python's gui + nimrod or some other lang as well...majority of development is going towards web these days :-( |
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15:01:42 | exhu | what gui do you need FOR? |
15:04:46 | exhu | gour, the thing is that our team started developing their own opengl gui, then they thought that what they have written sucks and prevents the team from writing a good visual tool. they decided to rewrite it using Qt. And know what, the gui they designed still sucks, the app crashes and now |
15:05:10 | exhu | it required a kingsize bloated gui library, the qt, which takes a day to compile... |
15:07:19 | exhu | gour, and what more, qt uses native widgets and so the app looks different on win and mac, and on win there's some problems with default listbox control that they cannot fix, because they use Qt and qt uses system controls -) |
15:08:43 | Trixar_za | And here I was going to learn C++ just so I could use Qt |
15:08:59 | exhu | Trixar_za, don't use qt -) |
15:09:36 | Trixar_za | Yeah, they have the typical Nokia mentality |
15:09:42 | gour | exhu: i thought that wx is the only one using native widgets...does qt use native on mac as well? |
15:09:48 | Trixar_za | As in, shoot ourselves in the financial foot mentality |
15:09:57 | exhu | Trixar_za, there're a lot of c++ toolkits around, try FOX, FLTK, wx |
15:10:26 | exhu | Trixar_za, FLTK is the least pita to use and learn. |
15:10:28 | Trixar_za | I just need something that ports lightly to Windows or Linux (maybe MacOs) |
15:11:21 | gour | exhu: have you ever worked a bit with Tk? newer versions seems to look better |
15:11:49 | gour | in C-arena, there is EFL... |
15:12:04 | exhu | gour, i used Tk in python, at some moment it became painful and slow, and i abandoned |
15:12:30 | exhu | gour, EFL is toooo modular, i could not figure it out how to use and from what to start |
15:12:40 | gour | i see |
15:13:10 | Trixar_za | Mostly to port https://github.com/Trixarian/pywse away from python. Webkit is heavy enough without python adding to that :/ |
15:13:18 | Trixar_za | Not to even mention GTK... |
15:13:48 | gour | IUP is not i18n ready... |
15:14:20 | gour | this really sucks...it looks as we'd have to use html5 |
15:16:15 | exhu | gour, i'm sick and tired of html5 era, where even high-end cpus get overloaded on sites. |
15:17:40 | exhu | gour, fltk is utf8-friendly |
15:18:01 | exhu | gour, but not with right-to-left languages. |
15:18:02 | gour | i agree...otoh, the other option could be to use lazarus/fpc despite all of its shortcomings |
15:18:35 | gour | exhu: fltk might be nice, but i do not want to code in c++ :-) |
15:18:47 | exhu | gour, what is the project you need gui for? |
15:19:21 | gour | exhu: something like http://saravali.de/screenshots.html |
15:19:49 | exhu | Trixar_za, i don't understand, you still need to retain webkit? |
15:20:55 | exhu | gour, be brave, use opengl and write your own gui ;) |
15:21:46 | gour | exhu: well, time-factor...i hardly have time to woron on this project, so expect to have infrastructure ready...no time for pioneering work |
15:21:56 | gour | *work on |
15:22:43 | exhu | gour, use Allegro5 (need some bindings, because it in C) to create window and draw using the 2d facilities (2d primitives, ttf fonts) it provides. |
15:22:46 | Trixar_za | exhu: Actually, I just need a way to wrap the web function - like a HTML5 container app |
15:23:23 | dom96 | gour: Ever considered using whatever Windows/Linux/Mac OS X provides for UI's? |
15:23:46 | gour | exhu: but that would be quite low-level, no common ui elements, menus, tree-list, button etc., right? |
15:23:47 | dom96 | Will probably be lots of work too. But advantage would be no dependencies, and a tailored look to each system. |
15:24:22 | gour | dom96: what do you mean? native controls for each OS? |
15:24:27 | dom96 | gour: yes. |
15:24:44 | gour | dom96: it looks as writing 3 apps instead of one :-) |
15:25:04 | dom96 | For Linux you would be using GTK anyway, so you could start with that and have a temporary cross platform UI. You could then slowly use native widgets on other OSs |
15:25:27 | gour | i'd prefer multi-platform kit so that other can chime in and tailor to mac/win if they want |
15:25:39 | exhu | gour, http://lw-gui.sourceforge.net/misc/a5-gui-addon.html |
15:28:25 | gour | otexit's pre-alpha and looks quite dead |
15:28:33 | gour | exhu: ^^ |
15:30:08 | gour | dom96: you'll continue working on nimrod's gtk(2)? |
15:30:23 | dom96 | gour: of course. Aporia depends on it. |
15:30:39 | gour | what about gtk3? |
15:30:52 | dom96 | someday maybe. |
15:30:57 | gour | ok |
15:31:40 | dom96 | gour: You should join GIMPNet/#gtk+ and tell them to start releasing Windows binaries again :P |
15:31:43 | gour | dom96: you're the only nimrod user working on gui app, atm? |
15:31:54 | dom96 | As far as I know, yes. |
15:32:08 | exhu | gour, sorry, i'm discovering this topic right now on, so i didn't knew it's dead |
15:32:24 | gour | dom96: heh, mac port is also not in the best shape |
15:32:31 | gour | (man-wise) |
15:32:32 | exhu | gour, this looks more interesting http://chinbilly.blogspot.com/2011/10/ui-for-allegro-5.html |
15:33:26 | gour | yeah, that looks better |
15:33:48 | exhu | gour, but it's in c++ :-/ |
15:34:30 | gour | ahh... |
15:35:35 | gour | all major toolkits (except gtk) are in C++, so any language aiming as potential replacement should take this into consideratiom, imho |
15:36:05 | gour | without 'batteries', not many people will migrate |
15:37:10 | dom96 | I doubt Ruby/Python/Rust/Go/D have any better ways to create C++ bindings. |
15:38:15 | gour | well, python has everything... |
15:38:47 | dom96 | Maybe because people simply write the bindings instead of discussing these issues to death :P |
15:38:50 | gour | rust is too immature...ruby guis mostly sucks...D is only gtk, no idea about Go |
15:39:55 | gour | dom96: there are devs writing 'cause people write gui apps in python |
15:40:30 | exhu | someone has to pioneer gui in nimrod |
15:40:48 | gour | wxpython was done via swig and now both wx&qtpython have SIP |
15:41:08 | gour | exhu: yes, but it seems that nimrod is not targetting/attracting such users |
15:41:49 | dom96 | I seem to be the only one actually trying to let people know about the language. At least on reddit. |
15:42:40 | * | gour cannot advertise it much without actually using it |
15:42:43 | exhu | gour, i've written gui libraries in the time of ms-dos, then wrapping win32 api, so i'm full of this stuff -) |
15:43:04 | gour | exhu: heh, another candidate for web/cloud :-) |
15:43:32 | gour | ms-dos gui tiems were nice |
15:43:37 | gour | *times |
15:43:56 | gour | turbopascal, turboC...zortech c++... |
15:44:29 | exhu | gour, what makes me unwilling to write a traditional gui lib is the diversity of platforms i work on, i.e. win32, mac, linux. |
15:44:47 | gour | exhu: anything wrong with e.g. wx? |
15:45:07 | exhu | gour, in times of win98 it was a piece of cake -- wrap win32 api and that's it. |
15:45:17 | Araq | gour: it's as if you regularly clear all of your memory |
15:45:23 | * | gour was using os2 at that time |
15:45:24 | Araq | stop doing that please |
15:45:32 | Araq | and once again: |
15:45:46 | Araq | a) Nimrod already binds better to C++ than almost anything else |
15:46:04 | Araq | b) we have "claro" that somebody could help with |
15:46:18 | Araq | c) etc. etc. etc. this has all been discussed to death! |
15:46:41 | exhu | Araq, procrastination is the root of that kind of evil :) |
15:47:25 | gour | Araq: only me? |
15:48:04 | exhu | it's seems as we are too old here =) |
15:48:28 | gour | exhu: maybe...time to go elsewhere |
15:49:04 | Araq | it's only you who spreads FUD like "it seems that desktop apps is not nimrod's niche" |
15:49:26 | gour | ok. thanks |
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15:49:36 | Araq | and I've yet to receive a single bug report from you ... |
15:50:48 | dom96 | And now the channel will go back to its silence. |
15:51:54 | Araq | I won't apogolize |
15:52:26 | exhu | Araq, there's a problem i need your help to solve, http://forum.nimrod-code.org/t/137 |
15:55:57 | Araq | exhu: edit macros.nim:289 |
15:56:10 | Araq | add an {.immediate.} to the macro |
15:56:22 | Araq | and try again please |
15:56:58 | exhu | "expectKind" proc? |
15:57:11 | Araq | sorry, typo |
15:57:17 | Araq | line 389 |
15:58:14 | exhu | Araq, now it works, thanks |
15:58:41 | Araq | well we need an immediate and a non-immediate version of this macro ... |
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16:03:19 | Araq | and we need some naming convention to distinguish them ... |
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16:07:21 | Araq | exhu: procrastination is one thing; constantly talking about the same (and only talking!) is another |
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16:24:37 | Araq | so ... how about dumpTreeImm() for the immediate version? |
16:26:28 | exhu | Araq, dumpTreeImm would be fine |
16:26:54 | Araq | dunno, 'Imm' as a suffix is a bit ugly |
16:27:28 | Araq | but then we already have lots of pre- and suffixes in the language ... |
16:28:03 | exhu | dumpTreeImmediate would be fine too with autocompletion turned on -) |
16:28:50 | Araq | maybe but many people still try to program with notepad |
16:28:52 | exhu | it's still no "org.nimrod.core.macros.dumpTreeImmediateMacro" =) |
16:35:46 | Araq | dom96: the compiler itself uses 'recvLine' ... is the new 'readLine' ready? |
16:35:56 | dom96 | Araq: yes |
16:36:04 | dom96 | I think. |
16:36:11 | dom96 | 80% sure. :P |
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18:23:05 | Araq | exhu: what should we answer the new guy on the forum? :-) |
18:23:40 | Araq | "it's easy to build lua as a static library and patch the stdlib to use that instead of a DLL?" |
18:26:23 | dom96 | Mention embedding. |
18:26:47 | exhu | Araq, nimrod macros and templates would potentially simplify writing bindings for lua |
18:27:04 | Araq | exhu: we already have bindings for lua ... |
18:27:06 | exhu | i mean export nimrod functions to lua |
18:27:26 | Araq | ah yeah |
18:28:25 | exhu | writing a native function to lua script engine is such a huge pile of code, checks etc per every function, that having a template feature is a must. |
18:28:47 | Araq | damn I should have finished my attempts to export the Nimrod interpreter that's napping in the compiler ... |
18:29:49 | exhu | Araq, current lua bindings work only with lua as a dll, this guy wants static linking. |
18:30:10 | Araq | yeah I noticed :P |
18:30:57 | Araq | it's pretty easy to change though |
18:31:17 | exhu | Araq, btw i criticized that from the start -))) i prefer to link against libs so that dependencies are clear when you type "ldd myprogram" |
18:31:54 | Araq | exhu: dynamic linking via dlym seemed like a good idea back in those days :P |
18:32:05 | Araq | *dlsym |
18:32:52 | Araq | I agree we need to do something about it |
18:32:54 | dom96 | Wouldn't it be possible for all wrappers to support a -d:static, or something like that? |
18:33:12 | Araq | yeah that was my plan too |
18:33:21 | dom96 | of course you might want to keep some dynamically linked and some not |
18:33:23 | Araq | but now maybe the compiler should support that |
18:33:44 | Araq | the dynlib stuff is very declarative so it's not hard to change |
18:33:48 | dom96 | import wrapper {.static.} :P |
18:34:25 | Araq | oh and for opengl you of course what the crazy dynamic binding |
18:34:30 | Araq | *want |
18:34:31 | exhu | Araq, you should not take it as static only, some libs require tons of other dynamic libs and it's just easier to write some binding functions and let pkg-config pass all the libraries. |
18:35:42 | Araq | well we need a per module switch that affects dynlib's semantics |
18:35:57 | Araq | er no |
18:36:26 | Araq | a per project configuration option that can affect dynlib in *some* modules ... |
18:36:31 | dom96 | The choice should be made during compilation |
18:36:38 | dom96 | yes |
18:36:39 | Araq | dom96: yeah |
18:37:34 | exhu | Araq, opengl can be painful to use when i link against a c game framework that already loaded extensions and opengl dlls |
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18:37:57 | Araq | exhu: how so? :-( |
18:38:14 | Araq | the compiler already has hacks just for the opengl wrapper ... |
18:38:30 | Araq | and I'm very proud of my solution :P |
18:38:38 | Araq | so don't tell me it doesn't work |
18:38:45 | exhu | Araq, i have not studied yet how the bindings look like now, so will speak about it some months later when i touch allegro5 -) |
18:40:00 | exhu | Araq, i mean if the allegro library initializes opengl for me, we can have several copies of opengl loaded per single application. maybe i'm wrong. |
18:41:04 | Araq | maybe you are, maybe you're not |
18:41:18 | Araq | I would guess that it works just fine :P |
18:42:52 | Araq | so ... a per project override option for dynlib ... sounds easy to do |
18:43:01 | * | Araq adds it to his todo.txt |
18:43:35 | exhu | Araq, that way of bindings separation between "load library dynamically" (current implementation) vs "load library by passing its name to the linker" (it can be static or dynamic) should be stated somewhere |
18:44:08 | Araq | it's documented in nimrodc.html iirc |
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20:51:13 | gradha | nimforum needs a logo, maybe two talking crowns exchanging asm codes? |
20:52:06 | Araq | oh hi gradha |
20:52:23 | gradha | hi Araq |
20:53:05 | gradha | I believe two sunsets exchanging code would be too subtle |
20:53:43 | Araq | two anythings exchanging something sounds pervasive |
20:54:04 | Araq | *perverted |
20:54:22 | gradha | to reflect realistically the current status of nimrod's popularity a crown talking to a wall could do |
20:54:45 | dom96 | I think what the forum needs is a tour feature, where an image of a floating Araq's head will guide you through the website :P |
20:55:17 | gradha | that's crazy talk, we don't even know if Araq has a head at all, it's just an AI bot |
20:55:36 | dom96 | True, how rude of me to assume such things. |
20:55:50 | gradha | surely implemented in like 85% C |
20:56:10 | Araq | actually I'm only an enormous brain |
20:56:27 | dom96 | gradha: Its only goal to reprogram itself in a language it creates. |
20:56:50 | dom96 | Hrm, this would make a good sci-fi story. |
20:57:32 | Araq | that revitalizes unless killed by dark templar's psionic energies |
20:58:20 | gradha | oh, yeah, SC2, have you played it? I tried it twice and haven't touched it since, I don't like it |
21:00:31 | Araq | yeah I played it through, it's not bad |
21:03:08 | gradha | I'm sure it's fun and enjoyable, but I didn't like you are being treated as a moron: "hey, we know it's 99% likely you played the previous SC, but look, if you click this thingy called a mouse, stuff happens!" |
21:03:56 | gradha | to me it's the perfect example of poor documentation since it misses the target user base and wastes resources on silly stuff |
21:10:40 | Araq | yeah that's quite absurd but it's no reason to stop playing :P |
21:12:53 | gradha | I'll try again drunk, that seems to smooth things out for nearly everything |
21:21:04 | Araq | gradha: turns out the "procvar" checking is quite annoying to get right in the compiler ... |
21:21:55 | gradha | what's this procvar checking? |
21:22:21 | Araq | your favorite feature: 'xyz' cannot be passed to a procvar |
21:22:57 | gradha | can't even remember creating a github issue for that |
21:23:35 | Araq | yeah well it's not a bug |
21:23:50 | Araq | it turns out the implementation is buggy |
21:28:29 | gradha | talking about bugs, I was meaning to bug zahary about stuff |
21:28:29 | gradha | compiling nimforum is cool to serve pages until you realize you need to recompile all to change a .tmpl file |
21:28:29 | Araq | it never was a problem for me when developing it |
21:28:54 | gradha | it's slow for retouching HTML and seeing how it works, of course the proper way would be to do all prototyping in pure html and then apply changes to source code |
21:29:33 | Araq | I dunno you can also easily reload most parts of the template at runtime |
21:29:46 | gradha | oh, can you? |
21:29:51 | Araq | yeah sure |
21:30:15 | gradha | I thought you need to "nimrod c forum.nim" to see changes made in included .tmpl files |
21:30:15 | Araq | you have to do it yourself though |
21:31:01 | Araq | yeah but I can imagine $htmlbody variables that are passed to the generator and that you readFile() |
21:32:01 | Araq | it's mostly irrelevant though as playing with the CSS for instance does not require recompilations if you keep it separately |
21:32:34 | gradha | it's all your fault, spoiling people by providing a fast compiler |
21:32:50 | Araq | thanks :-) |
21:33:24 | gradha | will you put a sleep(100) somewhere in the compiler for v1.0? |
21:33:50 | Araq | the real problem is that you have no control flow in (strutils|strtabs).% |
21:34:01 | Araq | and so the .tmpl solution is necessary |
21:34:21 | Araq | but that doesn't mean you can't combine these things easily :P |
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21:46:19 | dom96 | hrm, there seems to be a lot of new languages mentioned in r/programming |
21:48:24 | gradha | any mentions about boxer? |
21:51:42 | dom96 | never heard of it |
21:53:42 | gradha | neither did I http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4695 |
21:55:51 | gradha | it's visual so it can't be a "real men" programming language either http://dewey.soe.berkeley.edu/boxer/ |
22:00:17 | gradha | that reminds me, how did the donglegate end up? any more heads did roll? |
22:01:28 | dom96 | That girl lost her job. |
22:01:37 | dom96 | That's about all i've heard. |
22:01:46 | gradha | you mean, she can't troll any more on the internet? |
22:03:05 | gradha | I remember some ancient times were people would apologize and would not be fired over stupid things |
22:04:05 | dom96 | I really wonder where she's going to work now. |
22:05:32 | Araq | dom96: why? the world is full of jobs for the easily offended ... |
22:06:13 | dom96 | Well her job title was "Developer Evangelist" |
22:06:26 | dom96 | That means she's meant to bring developers together, or something. |
22:08:15 | gradha | careful dom96, that's starting to sound like some sexual thing, a ban is on its way |
22:13:21 | dom96 | But... Nimrod is my life! |
22:15:47 | gradha | hmm... bringing developers together... never imagined stackoverflow is an online dating site under the disguise of some support forum |
22:25:57 | gradha | awesome youtube description: THIS VIDEO IS NOT INTENDED FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT |
22:26:35 | Araq | http://areyouabrogrammer.com/ |
22:26:54 | Araq | my score: -30 |
22:27:04 | Araq | so it should be pretty easy to beat :P |
22:27:43 | gradha | ahaha, "hairy", I'm chewbacca |
22:30:03 | gradha | meh, no kpop for music? |
22:30:17 | gradha | I'll go with emo then |
22:30:18 | Araq | what's wrong with "metal"? |
22:30:31 | gradha | hahaha, "You gotta be kidding" |
22:31:00 | gradha | metal is sometimes too noisy |
22:31:46 | gradha | BQ -175, I'm an epic nerd |
22:32:18 | dom96 | -70 |
22:32:32 | Araq | well he didn't believe me I can do algorithms too |
22:38:15 | Araq | ping reactormonk |
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22:52:14 | reactormonk | Araq, pong |
22:52:56 | Araq | reactormonk: tried the latest JS codegen? |
22:53:07 | reactormonk | Araq, nope |
22:53:17 | Araq | reactormonk: please do it |
22:55:19 | reactormonk | Araq, it still works, what should I see? |
22:56:56 | Araq | well the first part of closure support is done |
22:57:04 | Araq | aka the nested procs |
22:57:08 | reactormonk | cool |
22:57:39 | Araq | the capturing is still not by-copy |
22:57:46 | Araq | but otherwise it should work |
22:58:15 | reactormonk | revert the compiler file in https://github.com/Tass/Nimrod/commit/a09bea1cd88f2cb0aedcea47d9535256e9213868 and see if it works |
22:58:30 | reactormonk | Need to write some scala as homework. :-/ |
23:00:00 | Araq | reactormonk: ugh don't |
23:00:07 | Araq | that's a closure at compiletime |
23:00:16 | Araq | still not implemented properly |
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23:23:27 | reactormonk | Araq, you marked the issue as fixed |
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23:26:02 | Araq | reactormonk: yeah ... because it is :P |
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23:28:18 | reactormonk | so not implemented properly but marked as fixed? |
23:29:04 | Araq | it's no JS specific bug :P |
23:29:20 | Araq | and the example code works as expected |
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23:36:04 | reactormonk | cool |
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