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| 09:12:44 | yglukhov | dom96: hey, how are your exams going? |
| 09:13:15 | yglukhov | could you please take a look at https://github.com/nim-lang/nimble/pull/232 |
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| 09:39:51 | dom96 | yglukhov: finished yesterday :) |
| 09:40:15 | dom96 | yglukhov: got a book deadline on Thursday though |
| 09:40:39 | yglukhov | cool, congratulations! |
| 09:41:57 | dom96 | thanks :) |
| 09:43:07 | yglukhov | so does that mean you cant merge the pr unitl thursday? %) |
| 09:44:06 | dom96 | nope. Just merged :) |
| 09:44:30 | yglukhov | oh great, thank you |
| 09:52:18 | cheatfate | this week thursday? |
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| 10:00:37 | dom96 | cheatfate: yep |
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| 10:01:36 | dom96 | cheatfate: please let me know what you think: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/4170 |
| 10:01:40 | wuehlmaus | dom96: congrats, great! |
| 10:01:42 | cheatfate | i thought you have like 60% completed... you are in troubles |
| 10:01:51 | dom96 | cheatfate: comment in that issue please |
| 10:02:06 | dom96 | cheatfate: I don't have to have the whole thing finished for Thursday |
| 10:02:14 | dom96 | just the next chapter |
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| 10:35:22 | cheatfate | i dont know why everybody thought that macos is intuitive |
| 10:35:30 | cheatfate | i have installed xcode and now i even can't find it |
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| 10:44:49 | euantor | cheatfate: it's not too bad once you get used to it. How did you install - via the App Store? |
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| 10:50:08 | wuehlmaus | cheatfate: try command-space, it pays off |
| 10:50:09 | cheatfate | euantor, its just not intuitive... you want to use git - install command line tools... |
| 10:51:28 | euantor | Or install homebrew and install git from there |
| 10:51:37 | euantor | Once you've got it setup, it's simple |
| 10:51:51 | cheatfate | and command line tools could not be installed from xcode, so you need to go and download it manually |
| 10:55:03 | euantor | It's meant to install from xcode, so that's odd |
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| 11:03:00 | cheatfate | dom96, so you dont like my waitForExit anymore? |
| 11:03:54 | dom96 | cheatfate: i'd rather keep osproc simple |
| 11:04:47 | cheatfate | dom96, then we need to kill timeout parameter... to be honest with our api :) |
| 11:05:07 | dom96 | indeed. |
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| 11:18:43 | federico3 | whaaat? |
| 11:19:23 | cheatfate | looks like federico3 is not agreed with our decisions :) |
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| 11:22:38 | Arrrr | haha |
| 11:24:34 | Arrrr | what is the nim way to auto reboot an aplication? |
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| 11:26:27 | cheatfate | Arrrr, is it not os specific? |
| 11:27:39 | Arrrr | mmm, i dont mind as long as it works on windows/unix |
| 11:28:40 | Araq_ | dom96: osproc is already very complex and a timeout parameter is desperately needed. |
| 11:29:15 | dom96 | Araq_: lol |
| 11:29:42 | dom96 | I don't think using "it's already complex" as an excuse for making it more complex is a good idea |
| 11:29:46 | Araq_ | Arrrr: use a parent process that can shutdown and restart a child process |
| 11:30:15 | Araq_ | yes, but it will never be simple, it solves a complex problem. |
| 11:30:36 | Araq_ | complex due to the OS's poor APIs. |
| 11:30:40 | dom96 | Araq_: we need an async implementation |
| 11:30:46 | dom96 | and keep osproc synchronous |
| 11:31:18 | Araq_ | sync + timeout is fine. |
| 11:31:33 | Araq_ | and seems way cheaper to implement. |
| 11:31:35 | dom96 | fixing timeout involves essentially embedding a lot of async things into osproc |
| 11:32:03 | dom96 | cheatfate's fix involves adding in kqueue and whatnot into osproc |
| 11:32:21 | dom96 | you may as well write a proper async implementation at that point |
| 11:32:34 | Araq_ | oh yes, that's true. |
| 11:32:49 | Araq_ | I didn't look at any patch. |
| 11:33:28 | dom96 | Yes, I would of course be happy if fixing timeout was easy |
| 11:33:36 | dom96 | but it looks like it's incredibly messy |
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| 11:39:53 | federico3 | could a polling-based timeout using peekExitCode be an acceptable workaround? |
| 11:40:26 | federico3 | (Assuming it's documented as such) |
| 11:43:53 | Araq_ | IMO yes. |
| 11:45:41 | cheatfate | dom96, for bsd systems its ok to use kqueue... |
| 11:45:55 | cheatfate | because there no other way |
| 11:46:18 | cheatfate | except manually polling process in cycle... |
| 11:47:41 | dom96 | cheatfate: I'm not saying it's not okay. |
| 11:48:02 | dom96 | But doing so just to get timeouts seems overkill. |
| 11:48:51 | dom96 | plus it ends up repeating a lot of code which the selectors module already implements |
| 11:49:33 | cheatfate | there no code which selectors implements... because selectors even dont have support of EVFILT_PROC |
| 11:50:16 | cheatfate | and this is not overkill to use one more file descriptor and very fast kernel mechanism... |
| 11:50:50 | cheatfate | whole linux staff is based on usage of file descriptor.... eventfd, signalfd, inotifyfd, timerfd.... |
| 11:51:41 | Araq_ | Tested in Linux, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD and Solaris. (and Mac OS X) |
| 11:51:49 | cheatfate | yep :) |
| 11:52:07 | Araq_ | that alone speaks for its quality. |
| 11:52:20 | Araq_ | but I gotta go. |
| 11:52:22 | Araq_ | bbl |
| 11:54:43 | cheatfate | dom96, and if you have some time (but you haven't) you can check how projects (python and others) trying to simulate sigtimedwait in their code :) |
| 11:55:27 | dom96 | cheatfate: is there no way to extend selectors to reduce code repetition at least a bit? |
| 11:57:01 | cheatfate | dom96, it doesn't help... because usage of EVFILT_PROC in context of selectors.nim is not so easy... |
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| 12:00:29 | cheatfate | Arrrr, i can make it in windows just because i can inject some code to parent process... but i dont know how to inject code in linux/bsd |
| 12:01:52 | Arrrr | Ok, don't worry. I'm following araq's suggestion and i got this, whic is working |
| 12:01:54 | Arrrr | http://pastebin.com/d6Bn43mq |
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| 12:03:59 | cheatfate | hmm this is not fair... just because you are running yourself before exiting, so you have 2 copies of yourself |
| 12:04:38 | cheatfate | to found proper way you need to modify executable :) |
| 12:04:59 | Arrrr | Yes, but you can add quit() just after |
| 12:05:48 | cheatfate | Arrrr, i think applications needs to autoreboot when they got upgrade or patch... |
| 12:06:05 | cheatfate | in your method you could not patch it |
| 12:06:31 | Arrrr | mmm |
| 12:07:12 | cheatfate | Arrrr, you can always use shell to help you |
| 12:07:43 | Arrrr | But why not?, do you mean you need to kill the binary and then start? |
| 12:08:21 | Arrrr | *delete the binary |
| 12:08:39 | cheatfate | Arrrr, is this just for experiment? |
| 12:08:53 | cheatfate | or you want to use it somewhere? |
| 12:10:03 | Arrrr | For my usecase it is good enough, but i have to handle sockets before starting the process again. |
| 12:10:25 | Arrrr | If i needed to update the exe, i think i would use an external program to do handle the process |
| 12:10:30 | cheatfate | Arrrr, also your method will get your second copy closed when you quit from parent... |
| 12:10:51 | cheatfate | it will works only on windows... |
| 12:10:56 | cheatfate | not on unix |
| 12:11:31 | Arrrr | Well, that's what happened on windows too before using the option 'poParentStreams' |
| 12:12:04 | Arrrr | I don't have unix to test it, but i expect it to work too |
| 12:12:59 | cheatfate | # poParentStreams causes problems on Posix, so we simply disable it: |
| 12:13:39 | cheatfate | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/lib/pure/osproc.nim#L270 |
| 12:17:31 | Arrrr | lol |
| 12:17:40 | Arrrr | Well i have to take lunch |
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| 13:36:47 | cheatfate | dom96, just want to ask you about now i'm in stage when i have made my selectors.nim compatible with asyncdispatch.nim, but i have made only epoll/kqueue |
| 13:37:21 | cheatfate | and now i'm thinking for 2 days how to adopt all features to simple windows/posix select() |
| 13:37:55 | cheatfate | or i can leave it with just handles/sockets working |
| 13:40:20 | cheatfate | pythoners support only sockets for simple windows select() |
| 13:41:57 | cheatfate | for posix systems i have some emulations but they looks not very nice, just because this is emulation |
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| 17:22:54 | Mat4 | hello |
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| 17:42:40 | Mat4 | I'm thinking about start working on a Nim inspired language with familiar syntax - Rim (for Reduced Nim). My intentional object would be to create a complete dynamic language, which is minimalistic, functional, embeddable, ressource efficient implementable (no compiler) ... and not a Lua environment ;) |
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| 17:45:17 | Arrrr | Cool project. You may learn a lot in the process and contribute to nim by the way |
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| 17:50:21 | Mat4 | i try to constantly learn, so yes. About the latter I'm not sure if such contribution would be inherent reasonable |
| 17:50:54 | elrood | however, now there's no way to success any more. you can either lose interest or hit some kind of roadblock, and having announced the project publicly here you can no longer just silently abandon the project and it'll count as a fail, or with a lot of determination you can really pull it off, create something mildly interesting and still end up with something less usable than lua or python ;P |
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| 17:53:21 | Mat4 | that's way to much fatalistic though for me, sorry ;) |
| 17:53:53 | Mat4 | I donÄt care about usefulness for other programmers as long as such project is of use for me |
| 17:53:58 | Mat4 | ^don't |
| 17:54:20 | Mat4 | so I do not waste my time |
| 17:54:29 | Araq_ | Mat4: hey |
| 17:54:48 | Mat4 | hi Araq |
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| 17:55:24 | Araq_ | "Rim" sounds cool. But I dislike the "dynamic" part of your description. |
| 17:55:54 | elrood | Mat4, just kidding ,) give it a shot, you'll gain valuable experience anyway and perhaps create something really fun. good luck |
| 17:56:56 | Araq_ | if you're after memory constrained devices you need static typing or you end up with either of these |
| 17:57:41 | Araq_ | a) "everything is an object" (aka indirection), that's quite wasteful |
| 17:58:03 | Araq_ | b) "everything is a word". Meh, hello forth. |
| 17:58:35 | Araq_ | c) "everything is some blob of bytes, variable sized" like in an assembler. Yay, also as error prone as assembler then. |
| 18:00:16 | Mat4 | Araq_: With dynamic I mean the identity of code and data -> self modifying code, runtime modifications of the compiler |
| 18:00:39 | Mat4 | that's possible with a static type system |
| 18:00:47 | Araq_ | indeed. |
| 18:01:59 | Mat4 | in fact, I think one weak point of languages like Lisp is the intrinsic lack of such type system |
| 18:07:46 | Mat4 | however, there exist always the possibility to prove program correctness though external applications (for example, I found SPARK equivalent program proving for ANSI Forth (commentary contracts) quite elegant and useful |
| 18:08:28 | Araq_ | interesting, any links handy? |
| 18:08:45 | Araq_ | never heard about proving a forth program correct |
| 18:12:42 | Mat4 | I'm try to find a link |
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| 18:25:35 | Mat4 | http://www.rigwit.co.uk/papers/formal2.html |
| 18:28:04 | Mat4 | the proving application is based on StrongForth (at current no active link) |
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| 18:32:50 | Mat4 | it implement the methods summarized in the link |
| 18:37:29 | zodiak_ | dom96: mind if I share a private paste with you regarding jester error ? |
| 18:37:42 | dom96 | zodiak_: go ahead |
| 18:37:45 | zodiak_ | (thumbsup) |
| 18:38:16 | def- | Mat4: You can also play around with proving C programs equivalent: http://formal.iti.kit.edu/improve/reve/ (Disclaimer: I used to work on that) |
| 18:38:43 | zodiak_ | I assume it's because I am doing something like; resp "I got some JSON: " & $result |
| 18:38:48 | zodiak_ | and that $result is nil |
| 18:39:06 | zodiak_ | jst wanting to make sure I am not nuts before going down that rabbithole |
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| 18:42:58 | Mat4 | def-: Nice project ! However, I'm curious how such tool prove the equivalence of implementation specific C constructs |
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| 18:43:38 | Mat4 | read implementation as processor and compiler dependent |
| 18:44:45 | def- | Mat4: good question and I don't know. back when I was involved with it we used a small C-like language instead of real C with it's undefined corners |
| 18:44:53 | def- | its* |
| 18:46:07 | def- | A guess would be that undefined values are assumed as unequal to everything else |
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| 19:38:04 | Araq_ | interesting, httpclient depends on a random number generator ... |
| 19:43:01 | Mat4 | I think that's a feature ? |
| 19:45:54 | Araq_ | indeed. a feature that I don't understand. |
| 19:46:00 | Araq_ | but that doesn't mean much. |
| 19:46:57 | Mat4 | probably a security related hack |
| 19:47:32 | Mat4 | if so I hope the random algorithm is a good one |
| 19:47:37 | Araq_ | surely looks lit it. |
| 19:47:51 | Araq_ | and no, our random algorithm is shit and we need to replace it. |
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| 19:51:43 | Mat4 | you will find a better and fast algorithm in Wirth's book: The oberon language |
| 19:51:56 | dom96 | So, who wants to write a Cryengine wrapper? https://github.com/CRYTEK-CRYENGINE/CRYENGINE |
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| 20:40:51 | federico3 | I vote for a prolog wrapper |
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| 20:49:44 | cheatfate | Araq_, httpclient needs to have random number generator when composing "multipart/formdata" POST requests... it needs to generate some kind of "123123123123----" :) |
| 20:52:00 | cheatfate | this "random numbers" used as block delimeters |
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| 21:14:54 | Araq_ | lol http is so shitty |
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| 21:19:29 | federico3 | the protocol? yep |
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| 21:44:56 | Mat4 | ciao |
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| 21:58:37 | gagagugu | hi there. any examples of nim that is being run in an on going setting? |
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| 22:03:18 | Araq_ | gagagugu: ask yglukhov when he's around |
| 22:03:28 | gagagugu | ok |
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| 22:12:04 | yglukhov | gagagugu: working on an unreleased game now. can't show a demo yet, but a lot of our work is opensource. |
| 22:14:02 | gagagugu | yglukhov, but is there any software or company currently using nim? |
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| 22:16:36 | yglukhov | gagagugu: like i said. my company is using nim. and we're probably not alone. |
| 22:16:47 | gagagugu | oh ok |
| 22:16:54 | gagagugu | do u know any that are released? |
| 22:17:55 | yglukhov | not that im aware of |
| 22:19:02 | gagagugu | oh ok |
| 22:19:03 | gagagugu | i'll look into it |
| 22:19:24 | yglukhov | enjoy :) |
| 22:19:32 | gmpreussner | cheatfate, i think API should allow developers to specify the delimiter string. i think you can reuse the same string in your application. it does not need to be generated each time |
| 22:19:50 | gmpreussner | *the API |
| 22:20:27 | cheatfate | gmpreussner, hmm, if you want to make http post request and post 2 files, do you care about how it will be performed? |
| 22:24:15 | cheatfate | gmpreussner, i'm agree with you, but i dont think there many developers which like this way... its why there so many java/c# programmers and they dont care how your http request will be performed, they just need to perform it |
| 22:27:20 | cheatfate | i like when people make libraries and allow developers to specify functions for memory read/write/alloc and socket read/write/alloc so developer can use any methods available... |
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| 22:52:02 | cheatfate | Araq_, could we make `hasThreadSupport` from system nim to be public |
| 22:52:11 | cheatfate | system.nim |
| 22:53:05 | cheatfate | so there no need any more to declare "const someMultithreadingConst = compileOption("threads")" |
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| 23:01:35 | Araq_ | cheatfate: hmm, I think you still misunderstand the point of someMultithreadingConst |
| 23:02:48 | cheatfate | https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/lib/system.nim#L1290 |
| 23:02:59 | cheatfate | i just want to make this const public |
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| 23:06:04 | cheatfate | why do you think, i not understanding it? |
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| 23:13:41 | Araq_ | cheatfate: compileOption("threads") is what should be used in general, though |
| 23:14:02 | cheatfate | i dont think nimscript will use my selectors |
| 23:14:12 | cheatfate | or even current selectors.nim |
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| 23:14:50 | cheatfate | but ok, if you dont like - forget it |
| 23:15:18 | Xe | i kinda agree |
| 23:15:34 | Xe | it makes it more explicit what is being done instead of making it lok like a magic keyword |
| 23:20:47 | Araq_ | cheatfate: most stuff doesn't work with nimscript |
| 23:21:07 | Araq_ | but that's documents so it's fine, you don't have to care about that. |
| 23:21:21 | Araq_ | same holds for the JS target |
| 23:21:27 | Araq_ | *that's documented |
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