<< 24-11-2014 >>
00:01:35EXetoCan emitted Qt hello world is not very useful, but it's a start
00:03:14EXetoCa little bit of fun spanning 500 hours is all that's needed really
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00:11:04Joe_knockEXetoC: Share the link to the code? I will attempt to contrib there
00:12:25EXetoCJoe_knock: it's just code in an emit string, but ok
00:15:15Joe_knockaah, was hoping this was a start to something :P
00:17:15EXetoCmaybe
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00:30:16bouliiiiAre macros always evaluated with pre-order traversal?
00:30:34bouliiiiMy first experiment says yes. But is it something that is ensured?
00:31:36bouliiiistmt macro inside a stmt macro has a weird AST. This is a call actually
00:33:41bouliiiiOh sorry actually. my question is confusing. When a macro A is used inside a macro B, macro A is always expended after macro B expansion?
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00:34:39bouliiii(here macro A and B are both stmt macros)
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01:44:44steaksandwichhello
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09:29:16gokr1Would be cool to see how a port of PetitParser would look in Nim
09:29:55gokr1PetitParser is a really slick parser construction library originating from Smalltalk by Lukas Renggli.
09:30:15gokr1He works at Google now and has ported it to both Java and Dart. And js I think.
09:51:51gourmorning
09:56:17gouri know that nim is using reST for docs, I've decided to use AsciiDoc(tor) which i finf more suitable. however, it's interesting to note that AsciiDoctor implementation is (here) 20-25x quicker than the default/original implementation in Python, so it would be an interesting project for someone coming from Ruby to try Asciidoc in Nim? there is also one in Go...however, ruby implementation is used by Github
09:56:19gour(http://asciidoctor.org/news/tag/github/) something to advertise Nim further
10:01:18kokozedmanhey guys
10:01:45kokozedmanhow do I use Tables with array[0..11, char] ?
10:02:21kokozedmanseems to only add 1 entry, and the rest of the key is ignored, and it just keeps updating what's already in the hash table
10:10:31kokozedmansorry... there was a mistake I made
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12:18:40EXetoCcan case sensitivity be queried at compile time? that would be useful for dealing with the collisions in the opengl module
12:21:58reactormonkEXetoC, you could export it from the compiler I'd say
12:30:17EXetoCthe var seems to have been introduced just 2 months ago
12:30:47EXetoCI'll deprecate the symbols in 1.0 or something
12:33:36EXetoCbut it shouldn't be hard to add a conditional symbol, assuming there isn't one
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12:42:26Araq0EXetoC: you can use when declared(NimVersion)
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12:43:06Araq0since Nim defaults to --cs:partial, nimrod to --cs:none
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12:44:47Araq0note that version checking of NimMajor, NimMinor etc is not a good idea, especially since verything < 0.9.6 returns 0 for all of these (NICE bug ... :-/ )
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13:03:48Stefan_SalewskiHello -- trying to finish latest glib 2.40.2 ...
13:06:28Stefan_SalewskiAs Araq suggested I wrote a script for replacing leading/trailing underscores with nothing -- seems to have no name conflicts. Revoved the export markers * for that symbols, _ indicates privat I think.
13:07:52Stefan_SalewskiNext issue: glib.h uses type gsize. see http://developer.gimp.org/api/2.0/glib/glib-Basic-Types.html#gsize
13:07:57EXetoCwith #private I assume
13:09:06Araq0so what just use int for gsize
13:09:23EXetoCyou mean cuint?
13:09:41EXetoCStefan_Salewski: the C types are available in the system module
13:09:44Araq0no, I mean "int"
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13:10:25Stefan_SalewskiCurrent old glib.nim has gsize* = int32 -- I am not really happy with that? guint64* = int64 from current old glib may be fine, bit size is fixed and ok, but gsize?
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13:11:52EXetoCI don't know how it can be int because of the size difference in most cases
13:12:39Araq0EXetoC: well I read the spec of gsize and concluded Nim's int is what you want for it
13:13:28Araq0Stefan_Salewski: old glib.nim is perhaps wrong for this, but I guess we should really check glib's C code
13:13:57EXetoCconfusing
13:15:27Stefan_SalewskiThanks, have to leave now, will scan the irclogs tonight.
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13:34:41EXetoCas always I can't find
13:34:45EXetoCit
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13:37:47EXetoCright, build scripts
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13:44:13EXetoCI think it should be an alias of csize, except it's unsigned according to cplusplus.com, and in nim it's signed
13:47:23EXetoCbut we did discuss the improbability of having such large byte buffers
14:00:17Araq0yes.
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14:11:28EXetoCso alias it to csize (size_t), Stefan_Salewski
14:14:23Araq0csize is just int too
14:14:27Araq0iirc
14:15:01Araq0I should have rejected the PR that introduced "csize"
14:18:42EXetoCyou don't think it's worth having an alias in case it won't be 'int' some time in the future? and sometimes you don't have an alias like gsize
14:23:53Araq0these aliases cause more harm than anything
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14:33:02Araq0somebody with a hacker news account should reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8652071 that his comment has nothing to do with reality
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14:43:14kokozedmanI'm getting a lot of Warning: not GC-safe: on my project ... what's all these about, and should I be worried?
14:46:20Araq0kokozedman: do you use --threads:on ?
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14:50:56Araq0but yes, in general you should be worried
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14:51:59kokozedmanAraq0: yes, I do
14:52:33kokozedmanI spawn a thread that I pass data to via TChannel
14:52:47Araq0you should treat it like an error then
14:52:50kokozedmanand that's the only path I communicate to that thread
14:53:19Araq0well you need to annotate your code then with .gcsafe or .noSideEffect at strategic places
14:53:34Araq0usually forward declarations
14:53:43Araq0and proc types
14:55:32kokozedmanAraq0: in terms of safety and correctness, there doesn't seem to be any race in the program and I completely adhere to the data separation between threads, no GCed data shared between threads and comms done via TChannel ... so, the warnings are not obvious to me. But I'll try .gcsafe.
14:56:43Araq0kokozedman: well the compiler tells you what it considers GC unsafe
14:57:00Araq0but unfortunately not really *why*
14:57:14Araq0also these warnings currently cascade
14:57:28Araq0so the first warning is likely the most insightful
14:59:06kokozedmanyeah, I see so many of them
15:00:06Araq0--warning[gcUnsafe]:off can help
15:00:27Araq0or maybe it's warning[gcSafety]:off I can never remember
15:01:30kokozedmanthey are mostly on closures
15:02:03kokozedmanAraq0: I'm not sure of how do I approach that, because I have no understanding how the GC handles them
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15:02:54Araq0kokozedman: so mark your callback types .closure, gcsafe
15:02:56kokozedmanI have a object, and one of its member is a closure .. use of that closure causes the warning
15:06:17kokozedmanAraq0: now ... Error: ':anonymous' is not GC-safe
15:06:29kokozedmanthat's when I try to feed a closure to it
15:07:12Araq0well your anon proc is not gcsafe then
15:07:52kokozedmanthat's the problem .. it is guaranteed to be used in a single thread
15:09:46kokozedmanAraq0: I mean, I designed it so that only the main thread is using it, main thread also generating it
15:10:48Araq0why is it called then in some client thread context?
15:11:40kokozedmanI'm not following you...
15:12:12kokozedmanthere is a section of the code that only the main thread is concerned
15:12:37kokozedmanand I use a thread, which covers only a very small section of the whole program
15:13:30Araq0ok, well, at this point, please create a bug report or at least gist it
15:13:51kokozedmanok, so, let me try to reproduce it
15:14:42Araq0do not waste too much time to reduce the bug to some tiny program
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15:42:56kokozedmanAraq0: here you go, may be there is some bad practice with what I'm doing and I get the warnings ... https://gist.github.com/eliezedeck/112d92ae108f06c4ebc6
15:45:00Araq0kokozedman: well you need to declare onCalled as gcsafe
15:45:21Araq0otherwise the compiler assumes the worst since it's an indirect call
15:46:40Araq0also your global 't' itself is not gcsafe
15:46:53Araq0since it contains a closure
15:47:13Araq0when you use that in a different thread, it's not gcsafe
15:48:05kokozedmanAraq0: so, generally speaking, closures are not gcsafe, right?
15:48:20kokozedman(even adding gcsafe doesn't suppress the warning)
15:48:43Araq0no, globals that contain GC'ed memory are not gcsafe
15:48:58Araq0closures are not the problem here really
15:49:12Araq0give your 't' instead a string field and you get the same problem
15:50:05kokozedmanI see
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15:50:18kokozedmanthat's something to think about
15:50:31kokozedmanso, it's not a bug then
15:51:11Araq0no, but we need more user friendliness
15:52:25kokozedmanuser friendlines, like?
15:53:35Araq0"run with --explain to make the compiler explain its reasonings wrt the effect system"
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19:05:33Varriountgokr1: It would also be neat for a nim port of codetalker (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/CodeTalker/0.5 )
19:06:33VarriountAraq: Under what circumstances would you *not* want explanatory errors?
19:09:53EXetoCfowl: so you haven't used EFL? Windows is supported, so I might actually port it
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19:24:23Mat4hello
19:30:05Araqhi Mat4
19:30:24Mat4hi Araq
19:31:00AraqVarriount: verbose error messages can get annoying for the people who have a deep experience with the language
19:32:23VarriountAraq: So perhaps explanatory messages should be the default, with terse messages being enabled with '--terse', or something.
19:32:33Araq"unknown identifier: foo" is already quite technical, depending on the audience something like "I do not know what 'foo' means here. Did you mean 'fox'?" is more appropriate
19:33:37AraqVarriount: yes but the idea is that --explain would trigger a much more expensive semantic checking pass
19:33:59Araqthat breaks the modularity of the analysis
19:35:26VarriountWe have modular analysis? I was under the impression that the entire semantic pass was one big mechanism.
19:36:15perturbationam I confused about how memory allocation works (https://github.com/fowlmouth/nimrod-sfml/pull/5) here? Trying to update the sfml library post-bigbreak and I noticed that the -=/+= operators call an external library function which returns a new object
19:36:47perturbationso I think that there would be leaked memory when doing something like a -= b or similar
19:40:49*gour_ is now known as gour
19:43:05AraqVarriount: firstly, the entire semantic pass is actually 2-4 passes depending on how you count them
19:43:23Araqsecondly that is not what I mean when I say "modular"
19:43:53Araq"modular" here means that you can type-check every module on its own
19:47:47Araqperturbation: no because SFML's Time class is a pure value type allocated on the stack
19:47:58Araqit simply wraps an int64 afaict
19:49:44perturbationI guess what I'm wondering about is that the TTime objects in Nim are pure so they're fine
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19:51:00perturbationbut when you assign a value from a function from the SFML lib, that should alloc something new behind-the-scenes (leaving the old version still unfreed)
19:51:12gourdoes this http://www.greghendershott.com/2014/11/github-dropped-pygments.html affect nim?
19:51:34gour(reddit linK http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2n8e9o/github_dropped_pygments/)
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19:53:45Araqgour: I don't know
19:55:12Mat4Araq: http://vimeo.com/108094559
19:55:42AraqMat4: lol, I wanted to send you the same link ... ;-)
19:56:21Mat4*g* :)
19:57:23perturbationagh, sorry, missed what you were saying (yes, should be fine since SFML doesn't heap allocate) no worries
19:59:14perturbationthanks Araq
20:00:21Araqhe he, perturbation ... maybe we should add "read twice what Araq says" to the topic :P
20:01:31AraqVarriount: how's the test result rendering progressing?
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20:37:57bouliiiiAre macros always expanded with a pre-order traversal when they are nested?
20:38:49Araqbouliiii: that's hard to say
20:39:26bouliiiiI have simd: bla... (then nested->) unmasked:....
20:39:47bouliiiiRight now, I see unmasked when parsing expanding simd
20:40:39Araqyes, that's how it should be
20:40:57bouliiiiAraq: I can take this behaviour as guaranteed?
20:41:23Araqif your simd is immediate, then yes
20:41:29bouliiiiGreat! Thanks!
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21:05:21gourevening
21:07:40gouri would like to move to root-under-subvolume setup and created new subvolume of the original install (suse-13.2) by snapshotting original ones including root. here is the list of my subvolumes: http://pastebin.com/fpkHwGZ2 - the new ones are denoted with '@' in front, but now have problem rm-ing the old ones. is there some way to delete snapshot by its id?
21:08:35gouroops wrong channel. excuse me
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21:27:46Joe_knockIs there a very detailed Introduction to Nimrod written by anyone?
21:28:23AraqJoe_knock: there is flaviu's introduction
21:28:37Araqand there is the tutorials
21:30:21Joe_knockI'd like to introduce Nim to a small group of individuals, looking for a detailed tutorial to follow
21:31:56Mat4Take a look at Araq's talk slides
21:32:21Araqer ... that's not introductionary stuff
21:33:58Mat4no ?
21:37:59Joe_knockI found doms stuff on his blog. I can use that too (hopefully)
21:38:10Araq"how can I learn about Nim? -- Here listen to this dude who shows how to do partial evaluation at compile-time"
21:38:21Araqnah, I don't think so
21:44:06Mat4ok, than some basic introduction is obviously needed
21:45:05Mat4I would write one, if I found free time for it (the compiler need to be finished first anyhow)
21:45:19AraqMat4: well the tutorial exists and is not that bad
21:45:44Mat4Joe_knock: Is it sufficient for you ?
21:45:59Araqalso the manual is quite good IMHO
21:46:34gourtutorials are up-to-date?
21:47:02Araqwe're trying, gour
21:47:50Joe_knockMat4: Araq: I am going to use these 2: http://picheta.me/articles/2013/10/about-nimrods-features.html && http://web.mit.edu/nimrod-lang/arch/amd64_ubuntu1204/doc/tutorial.html
21:48:04gourAraq: what is the final stanza in regard to case-(in)sensitivity?
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21:49:43Araqgour: Nim now uses the eccentric "partial case sensitivity" rules which means first letter is sensitive and the rest is not
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21:50:30gourAraq: interesting. bte, Go also has sensitivity at the first letter :-)
21:50:50AraqIMO it works out quite well but we'll see how people react when we finally release Nim
21:51:42Araqgour: Go uses it for visibility, we use it for types vs anything else
21:52:18gourAraq: i know, just joking about 'coincidence' of 1st letter for different purposes
21:53:17gouri bet you know Dmitry from Ada-world. he seems to alway has a point about something...and never happy in his search for Holy Grail. maybe i should tell him about Nim ;)
21:59:08Araqmaybe
21:59:23Araqand no, I don't know him
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22:04:05gour "Dmitry A. Kazakov"...maybe you left earlier, although it seems he is long time with Ada...
22:04:41Araqwhat's his nick?
22:04:47Mat4reads he is a well educated personality
22:05:41gourAraq: i'm no longer in #ada, but, iirc, he is only on c.l.a, not on irc
22:06:34gokr1Joe_knock: You might find some stuff in my articles too, perhaps the OO articles.
22:07:02gokr1But they are... not tutorials per se.
22:07:23Joe_knockgokr1: Link?
22:07:36gokr1http://goran.krampe.se/category/nim
22:08:12Joe_knockthanks gokr1 . Looks like there is a lot of relevant stuff there too
22:08:34gokr1Well, they are all fresh. :)
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22:08:44gokr1Feel free to pillage.
22:08:58Stefan_SalewskiOK, so I will use csize for glib's gsize -- thanks.
22:09:08Stefan_SalewskiAnd I will disable (remove) these few procs with va_list arguments.
22:09:18Stefan_SalewskiI think we do not need them, they seems to be missing in current old glib too.
22:09:28Stefan_SalewskiFor old glib we have guint32* = int32
22:09:43Stefan_SalewskiShould be not too bad, guint is not used much in glib, and of course bitsize is ok.
22:09:51Stefan_SalewskiThere are very few glib functions like
22:10:00Stefan_Salewskiguint32 g_date_get_julian (const GDate *date);
22:10:11Stefan_Salewskiwhich returns an guint. Maybe it is not the best solution to regard the result
22:10:21Stefan_Salewskias int32 and maybe do wrong arithmetic. So my current intension is to use now
22:10:32Stefan_Salewskiguint32* = uint32 -- I think uintxx is available now for Nim, and so we can avoid wrong arithmetics?
22:11:05Stefan_SalewskiIf arithmetics are required, user has to import a module, guess that is fine. Do you agree?
22:15:37Araq"wrong arithmetics" is relative
22:16:06Araqbut sure use uint32 I stopped caring years ago
22:17:49Stefan_SalewskiOK thanks -- I do not care much about this issue too, but it's good to use the best solution which is available. Bye.
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22:20:58Araqthe best solution is not to use a type where arithmetic is fundamentally broken
22:22:20Araqno matter if C programmers disagree, C programmers caring about correctness is a staircase wit anyway
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22:30:45VarriountAraq: I'm fighting off globs of sql with the help of a Very Large Stick (tm)
22:36:21AraqVarriount: need some help?
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22:41:25VarriountAraq: I think I'm fine. The main problem is combining multiple databases and altering the machine and commit ID's
22:41:44VarriountAraq: If you have a simpler way, that would make me happy.
22:49:12Araqattach database database1.db as a;
22:49:14Araqattach database database2.db as b;
22:49:15Araqinsert into a.Commit ac from b.Commit bc
22:49:17Araqwhere bc.hash not in (select hash from ac)
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22:56:36Araqinsert into a.TestResult at from b.TestResult bt where (bt.name || bt.category || bt.commit || (select name from Machine where bt.machine = Machine.id)) ) not in (select ... )
22:56:44Araqadmittedly that's rather ugly
22:56:54Araq|| is string concatenation here
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