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| 00:57:43 | girvo | Hey all :) |
| 00:58:04 | girvo | BlaXpirit: well done on your Chipmunk and SFML bindings btw, they've been a massive help! |
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| 01:03:15 | nchambers | what is chipmunk? |
| 01:07:11 | girvo | 2d physics engine, C-based |
| 01:07:26 | nchambers | ahh |
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| 06:23:33 | nicktick | Is there only one file 'nim' in bin/ after I ran build.sh? |
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| 10:21:40 | gokr | Hmmm, is there an easy way to see why ... nim tries to include nimprof when I compile? |
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| 11:11:26 | Araq | look for --profiler:on |
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| 11:44:45 | dom96 | http://danluu.com/butler-lampson-1999/ |
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| 11:46:57 | coffepot | man, I so wish RISC took off instead of CISC |
| 11:48:47 | dom96 | Also found what Guido wrote about case insensitivity in Python in 2000 quite interesting: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2000-May/037102.html |
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| 11:54:14 | gokr | Silly question: How do I test for js with "when"? |
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| 11:55:59 | reactormonk | gokr, defined(js) ? |
| 11:56:07 | gokr | Ah, cool, thanks |
| 11:56:14 | * | gokr trying to compile Ni to js |
| 11:58:48 | gokr | Ok, so it compiled. |
| 11:58:52 | gokr | But... how do I run it? :) |
| 11:59:22 | gokr | Ok, found info... |
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| 12:08:28 | coffepot | on case sensitivity, it's such a weird argument. I've had people recoil in horror at the thought of case insensitivity in a language. "This will clearly cause bugs because you can mix up variable names!" Of course, that only applies if your variable names are only distinguished by case, which seems like a cause of bugs in itself imho |
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| 12:10:13 | coffepot | for me Nim definitely hits the sweet spot, where you only have to worry about the first letter, meaning you can have types and variables with the same text if you want but still differentiated |
| 12:10:52 | gokr | Muaha, Ni just calculated factorial in nodejs. |
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| 12:11:05 | coffepot | grats gokr :D |
| 12:11:15 | gokr | That's pretty sick :) |
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| 12:17:45 | gokr | But its slooow :) |
| 12:18:06 | coffepot | Ni is interpretted isn't it? |
| 12:18:12 | gokr | Yup |
| 12:18:25 | gokr | So its an interpreter written in Nim, compiled to js and run in nodejs. |
| 12:19:10 | gokr | It seems to be... 60x slower than when compiled to C. |
| 12:19:37 | coffepot | What are you using it for btw, or just for fun? |
| 12:19:49 | gokr | Just for fun, I just wondered if it could be done :) |
| 12:20:22 | coffepot | Nice one :D Well sounds like it can be done! |
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| 12:21:24 | coffepot | factorial seems like a good marker to show capabilities for something like this :) |
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| 12:28:34 | reactormonk | coffepot, meh, depends on the implementation. If you're doing it stack-based... |
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| 12:56:14 | gokr | Araq: Discovered that I had to ... explicitly change "Node" (my own type) to "niparser.Node" all over the place in my Ni interpreter - or I got some name clash when compiling to js! |
| 12:57:54 | gokr | But apart from that, and removing all "import os", it actually works. |
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| 13:25:58 | Araq | well |
| 13:26:09 | Araq | import system except Node |
| 13:26:17 | gokr | Aha ;) |
| 13:26:27 | Araq | would solve it, but isn't implemented |
| 13:26:33 | Araq | -.- |
| 13:26:48 | Araq | though I suppose we can move this out of system.nim altogether. |
| 13:26:51 | Araq | yglukhov: ping |
| 13:27:35 | gokr | I got another funky error that I can try to report later when I have time - when using "echo". |
| 13:27:52 | gokr | But otherwise all my Ni tests are green in nodejs, kinda funky. |
| 13:28:07 | Araq | yeah the JS backend is really usuable these days |
| 13:28:17 | Araq | *usable |
| 13:28:32 | gokr | I will try to make a REPL going on a webpage or so, would be neat. |
| 13:31:31 | Araq | cool |
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| 14:00:58 | yglukhov | Araq: pong |
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| 14:01:52 | yglukhov | mind pulling https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/3580 and https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/3573? |
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| 14:03:23 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 0d5b9af Yuriy Glukhov [+0 ±1 -0]: Fixed JS codegen for distinct types |
| 14:03:23 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel cfe4e78 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #3580 from yglukhov/js-distinct-type... 2 more lines |
| 14:03:46 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel 3c70a2e Yuriy Glukhov [+0 ±1 -0]: doc fix |
| 14:03:46 | NimBot | nim-lang/Nim devel eaed360 Andreas Rumpf [+0 ±1 -0]: Merge pull request #3573 from yglukhov/doc-fix... 2 more lines |
| 14:04:21 | Araq | yglukhov: done. now let's do something about 'Node' being part of system.nim |
| 14:06:09 | yglukhov | thanx =) |
| 14:06:12 | yglukhov | ok, will do. |
| 14:06:16 | yglukhov | breaking change? |
| 14:06:48 | Araq | yeah. |
| 14:06:58 | yglukhov | ok |
| 14:07:03 | Araq | and make it use importcpp while we're at it please |
| 14:07:20 | Araq | you surely remember the issue we had with this old stuff at NimCon |
| 14:09:22 | yglukhov | yep, but i'm not planning to touch dom.nim now |
| 14:09:28 | yglukhov | i mean it may be a separate pr |
| 14:10:02 | Araq | ok |
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| 14:51:15 | dom96 | Wish I had more time to do this https://medium.com/@kentcdodds/first-timers-only-78281ea47455#.g7rb1bhpy |
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| 16:05:45 | federico3 | strcmp1: we still have to organize a meetup :) |
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| 16:27:07 | ephja | do we have any plugins for free editors that can generate symbol trees? |
| 16:29:51 | Araq | ephja: what are editors that can generate symbol trees? |
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| 16:43:04 | ephja | Araq: I meant a plugin which can do that (generate a tree of the top-level symbols) |
| 16:44:26 | ephja | is this outside the scope of nimsuggest? is it difficult to achieve with the compiler interface? |
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| 16:46:10 | reactormonk | ephja, what information would you need? |
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| 16:52:14 | Jehan_ | ephja: ntags (https://bitbucket.org/nimcontrib/ntags) already does something similar, though it dumps the result as tags, not as a tree. |
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| 17:01:03 | ephja | Jehan`: do you know why it doesn't rely on the compiler? |
| 17:01:21 | Jehan` | ephja: Because it was in the end simpler to write and maintain this way. |
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| 17:03:07 | ephja | reactormonk: a symbol tree. people were proposing an improved documentation generator that would group procs based on the type of the first argument. did anyone ever attempt to implement that? |
| 17:03:10 | ephja | Jehan`: ok |
| 17:04:48 | reactormonk | ephja, what's a symbol tree? |
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| 17:06:23 | Araq | ephja: IME nimsuggest integration simply provides a better inferface anyway |
| 17:06:42 | Araq | foo <dot> -- looking at list of available options |
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| 17:09:45 | Araq | much better than the browser based solutions. |
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| 17:21:34 | ephja | reactormonk: a tree of types and so on, whose children would be the fields in this case |
| 17:22:16 | ephja | Araq: they are orthogonal? what if I need to look up the type(s) that the first parameter might assume for example? |
| 17:23:04 | Araq | are they? how do you do a type based search in the browser that takes subtyping etc. into account? |
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| 17:27:43 | ephja | no, I thought you implied that they were because of your comparison |
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| 17:30:31 | Araq | I cannot follow you. you can have a much better search feature for the generated documentation but then why bother if you don't have to use the documentation in the first place because your editor can tell you the same |
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| 17:51:42 | ephja | well it hasn't been implemented yet, so that's why I either wanted to use an editor plugin or use some really simple API. I just got lost before when I tried to apply some change to the compiler before, and I can't be bothered to have another go at it |
| 17:57:08 | ephja | Araq: did I understand *you* though? :p anyway, I could have a quick look, but I must have missed some essential debugging solutions before |
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| 17:58:36 | ephja | such as printing only when in a certain part of the AST |
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| 18:17:06 | Araq | ephja: latest versions of nimsuggest indeed support that, I think |
| 18:17:20 | Araq | I mean it can give you a list of all declarations in a module |
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| 18:31:10 | flaviu | Whoa, unsigned became part of system? |
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| 18:31:47 | flaviu | Anyway, congratulations on the release! I've been really busy in real life and haven't been keeping up with Nim. |
| 18:33:36 | ephja | when will the unsigned types be moved to the 'unsigned' module? 2.0? :-P |
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| 18:34:40 | ephja | nah I'm sure integer ranges will be common |
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| 18:39:20 | flaviu | "The type auto is now a "multi-bind" metatype" Nice! |
| 18:39:39 | flaviu | `macros.getImpl` also looks fun! |
| 18:41:46 | ephja | I know I wanted to use getType for *something* |
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| 18:42:23 | ephja | right, serialization |
| 18:43:44 | Araq | flaviu: and at NimCon we figured out we can make 'not nil' pointers the default. |
| 18:44:10 | Araq | I have a migration plan ready for that now. |
| 18:44:24 | flaviu | Araq: Has anyone published a blog post or something about that? It sounds exciting. |
| 18:44:50 | Araq | ha, yeah, that would be a good idea ... |
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| 18:49:43 | ephja | were the 'not nil' rules going to be relaxed? |
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| 18:50:06 | Araq | ephja: no, but I'm pretty sure I figured out the details and they will be expanded |
| 18:54:12 | ephja | ok. what about an "assert foo != nil" shortcut? |
| 18:54:29 | ephja | anyway, time to throw some 'not nil' into my code |
| 19:00:17 | ephja | but is it possible to have it omit warnings instead? |
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| 19:14:08 | Araq | no no no, not time for you to do anything. |
| 19:14:24 | Araq | time for me to clean up my changes and write some docs |
| 19:14:39 | Araq | and yeah, we need such an assert |
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| 19:22:21 | ephja | I was only referring to my personal code, but I'll wait |
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| 19:34:12 | theduke | would anyone have use for a websocket client / server? i'm writing a nim implementation right now |
| 19:34:48 | Araq | theduke: yeah, lots of people had interest for this |
| 19:35:54 | ephja | that's nice. will it be async? |
| 19:37:28 | flaviu | Did "nim i" go away? |
| 19:38:27 | def- | flaviu: nim secret |
| 19:38:41 | theduke | ephja: yep. i have server and client basically working now (the protocol is quite simple) just need to iron out the edges, make it perform well and test extensively |
| 19:38:42 | theduke | luckily, there is a great test suite: http://autobahn.ws/testsuite/ |
| 19:39:07 | flaviu | def-: thanks! |
| 19:39:17 | ephja | that's always nice to have |
| 19:43:24 | ephja | there are a few issues with async, but the ones I've encountered have been easy to work around |
| 19:44:04 | Matthias247 | the protocol is simple - as long as you don't try to implement everything that is in the spec. There are some really nasty things |
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| 19:45:22 | ephja | dom96: have you ever needed to apply async to generic procs? |
| 19:45:50 | Matthias247 | the close handshake is ugly. And on the open handshake you have to be careful that you don't consume parts of websocket messages while reading the header |
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| 19:55:24 | theduke | Matthias247: yeah, the close reason + payload is a bit ugly |
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| 19:57:22 | Matthias247 | theduke: and you have to handle cases where you and the other peer both send closes, and therefore shouldn't respond to each close with a close. And after close you need to wait for a clean FIN from the other side. And if this doesn't happen you always need a backup strategy (timer) that force closes the connection |
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| 20:02:46 | dom96 | ephja: Not that I recall. Does it not work at all? |
| 20:02:47 | theduke | all true. i started with the assumption that other endpoints might not behave well, so hopefully this is all handled. We'll see when i test a bit more |
| 20:05:54 | ephja | dom96: no, but it's easy to work around |
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| 20:06:13 | dom96 | ephja: what's the workaround? |
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| 20:06:35 | mat4 | hi all |
| 20:08:25 | ephja | dom96: the workaround is simply to define concrete procs instead, and the boilerplate can be minimized with a template |
| 20:11:43 | dom96 | hrm. |
| 20:11:48 | dom96 | Let me look into it now |
| 20:13:03 | ephja | but none of the issues are a problem for me anymore |
| 20:16:27 | yglukhov | hey guys, where can i get boehmgc.dll? |
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| 20:19:53 | yglukhov | Araq: is it shipped with nim somehow? |
| 20:21:03 | * | mat4 guess not |
| 20:21:45 | ephja | dom96: what should happen when I do waitFor(asyncsocket.recv(...)) on a closed socket? |
| 20:22:43 | dom96 | ephja: Exception IIRC |
| 20:23:05 | dom96 | That is if by "closed socket" you mean you called `close()` on it. |
| 20:23:28 | ephja | ok. it's an unbuffered socket btw. I'll create another test case |
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| 20:24:18 | ephja | dom96: no, just a new socket that has never connected to anything in this case. it's basically the same thing, right? |
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| 20:26:50 | dom96 | ephja: Then it depends on what the OS does. |
| 20:31:01 | dom96 | My guess it is a compiler bug. Araq? https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/3568#issuecomment-159722438 |
| 20:31:25 | ephja | isn't it better for these high level interfaces to provide platform-agnostic defaults unless specified otherwise? |
| 20:32:37 | ephja | do people ever want to rely on platform-specific defaults for applications that are cross-platform anyway? |
| 20:34:38 | dom96 | Yes, but the problem is you can't plan for every single scenario. |
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| 20:36:01 | ephja | I didn't know there were that many corner cases |
| 20:36:29 | ephja | but my socket is unbuffered. does it still apply? any idea if this is correct for linux then? |
| 20:37:23 | dom96 | buffered vs. unbuffered shouldn't matter in this case. |
| 20:37:41 | dom96 | what happens when you do it on your OS? |
| 20:37:45 | dom96 | (What is your OS?) |
| 20:38:22 | ephja | waitFor(newAsyncSocket(buffered = false).recv(n)) basically |
| 20:38:26 | ephja | linux |
| 20:38:42 | dom96 | right, and what happens when you do that? |
| 20:40:12 | ephja | dom96: it appears to get stuck somewhere in that proc |
| 20:41:59 | dom96 | Same on Mac OS X for me. |
| 20:43:49 | dom96 | Synchronous sockets give an error |
| 20:45:46 | ephja | but it's not considered a bug? I'll just go ahead and check if it has been closed then |
| 20:46:23 | ephja | which I should in any case, but I forgot about it at first |
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| 20:48:56 | dom96 | It is, i'm investigating now |
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| 21:06:06 | ephja | ok I reported it |
| 21:06:46 | ephja | should asyncnet export anything, you think? |
| 21:06:55 | dom96 | ephja: Thanks! |
| 21:08:16 | dom96 | Will need to go back to this I'm afraid. |
| 21:09:21 | ephja | or what's the policy? only export types in parameters? |
| 21:11:21 | dom96 | what do you mean? |
| 21:22:18 | ephja | should 'export' be limited to symbols that are used in the public interface of a module? SOBool for example |
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| 21:24:42 | ephja | It's a good approach I think. C-like "import" behavior is terrible |
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| 21:44:52 | dom96 | ephja: I'm sorry I still don't know what you mean. What 'export' are you referring to? |
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| 21:47:09 | mat4 | ephja: I think you should only export public interface members (if I understand your question right) |
| 21:47:49 | ephja | mat4: yeah |
| 21:48:37 | dom96 | You only export things you want to be public |
| 21:48:46 | dom96 | I'm not sure what you're asking |
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| 22:02:19 | mat4 | hi gokr |
| 22:02:35 | gokr | mat4: hey! |
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| 22:07:51 | mat4 | Congrats for your nice language, it's enjoyable to use |
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| 22:16:15 | mat4 | (specially its dynamic nature) |
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| 22:28:14 | ldlework | mat4: what are you referring to |
| 22:29:25 | mat4 | https://github.com/gokr/ni |
| 22:30:08 | ephja | dom96: why aren't instances of AsyncSocket considered closed when no connections have been established previously? because it's not open at that point |
| 22:31:36 | ephja | it would make more sense had it not been possible to create an instance without connecting |
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| 22:42:03 | Araq | http://forum.nim-lang.org/t/1805/1 |
| 22:42:33 | Araq | apparently it's "obvious" how to construct a real example from this. Any takers? |
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| 23:20:37 | yglukhov | Araq, can you say anything about boehmgc.dll? Where do i get it on windows? |
| 23:21:00 | Araq | I wish I knew. couldn't find it either |
| 23:21:22 | yglukhov | %) |
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| 23:26:48 | dom96 | ephja: It hasn't really been explicitly closed though, it's just not open yet. |
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| 23:30:46 | ephja | ok now I'm sure of the fact that we did discuss this before |
| 23:33:23 | ephja | I remember saying that "hasClosed" would make more sense then, but the current behavior seems less intuitive in any case |
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| 23:40:05 | dom96 | It depends how you define the "closed" state |
| 23:40:16 | dom96 | when you `close` a socket you can't do anything else with it |
| 23:40:27 | dom96 | before you `connect` a socket you can still do something with it |
| 23:40:54 | dom96 | So saying that a brand new socket is "closed" doesn't seem to make sense. |
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