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01:38:31 | vktec | If someone has a moment, could they take a look at one or both of the PRs I've got on the packages repo (one to correct a mistake with my previous package, one to add a new package)? |
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02:14:47 | Varriount|Mobile | vktec: I assume you mean the nimble package repository? |
02:14:52 | vktec | Yes |
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10:51:30 | wuehlmaus | good morning, today i looked at the roadmap. Does this suggest we are not far away from 1.0 ? many issues seem to have been resolved. |
10:51:55 | wuehlmaus | this would make my joy complete :) |
10:54:42 | wuehlmaus | i don't hold my breath :) |
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11:01:01 | dom96 | AFAIK the roadmap isn't up to date. |
11:08:26 | wuehlmaus | dom96: i bet you should know :) |
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11:09:16 | wuehlmaus | i only saw 'after 1.0' issues so i imagined the best :) |
11:09:27 | wuehlmaus | i wish you guys all the best!!! |
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11:33:27 | Varriount|Mobile | Hm |
11:35:04 | Varriount|Mobile | I was reading http://www.drdobbs.com/avoiding-the-visual-c-runtime-library/184416623 and https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20140411-00/?p=1273 , and have been wondering |
11:35:38 | Varriount|Mobile | How feasible would it be to dynamically load the C runtime? |
11:36:58 | Varriount|Mobile | If you create your own C runtime entry point, then dynamically load msvcrtXXX and call it's entry point, would there be any problems? |
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11:54:47 | federico3 | a multiplatform tray icon lib would be nice |
11:56:24 | Varriount|Mobile | federico3: Not quite what I was talking about, but a good thing to wish for nevertheless. |
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11:56:49 | federico3 | Varriount|Mobile: that wasn't in reply to your question, just another thought |
11:57:09 | Varriount|Mobile | Oh, sorry. |
11:58:04 | Varriount|Mobile | federico3: The problem with a cross-platform tray library is that the concept of a "tray" doesn't necessarily translate very well across desktop environments |
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11:59:59 | Varriount|Mobile | About the only thing most of them have in common (if they have a tray at all) is that an icon is present, is sometimes animated/visible, and can be clicked with mouse buttons. |
12:00:16 | federico3 | Varriount|Mobile: if it's only a matter of creating a little icon and maybe running one command when it' clicked it might be portable enough |
12:00:37 | federico3 | isn't that enough for most use cases? :) |
12:01:39 | Varriount|Mobile | Hm. Most of my tray icons show a menu on right click |
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12:03:08 | Varriount|Mobile | federico3: I wonder if (on Windows) an application needs a window in order to show a tray icon. |
12:03:35 | federico3 | a visible window? probably not |
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12:08:07 | Varriount|Mobile | federico3: Looks like you need a window though, visible or not |
12:08:26 | Varriount|Mobile | Which means message pumping, etc |
12:08:37 | Varriount|Mobile | Blech |
12:11:24 | Varriount|Mobile | Araq: Yay! Common sense comes at last: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2014/06/10/the-great-c-runtime-crt-refactoring/ |
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12:13:07 | federico3 | Varriount|Mobile: eg. this Python lib does the trick https://github.com/moses-palmer/pystray/tree/master/lib/pystray |
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12:25:42 | Varriount|Mobile | federico3: You could probably translate that library fairly easily, at least for Windows |
12:28:41 | elrood | how useful would that be, though? setting up a tray icon only involves a few api calls. you'd be doing a lot of abstraction work for different desktop environments for fairly little gain |
12:29:56 | elrood | might make sense for a high-level interpreted language like python, for something compiled with access to low-level interfaces like nim, not so much |
12:30:55 | elrood | don't want to spoil the fun though, if you feel like it would be worth the hassle, go for it |
12:32:49 | federico3 | libui will do the trick, once ready |
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12:40:53 | Araq | Varriount|Mobile: dunno about common sense, I prefer static linking |
12:44:18 | Varriount|Mobile | Araq: Generally, so do I, especially on Windows |
12:46:11 | Varriount|Mobile | Since WinSxS has been something of a failure, everyone bundles their dlls work their applications anyway |
12:50:47 | Varriount|Mobile | Araq: It just irks me that Mingw-compiled executables (ab)use the presence of msvcrt.dll, which is ancient. |
12:51:53 | Araq | Varriount|Mobile: agreed and Nim should directly target the Win API and get rid of this FILE* nonsense |
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13:11:15 | Varriount|Mobile | Araq: I think a good solution might be to stick with exposing FILE through the file handle type, and using _get_osfhandle behind the scenes |
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13:14:29 | Varriount|Mobile | I wonder how common it odd for cross-platform libraries to use Windows file handles rather than C file descriptors |
13:14:39 | FromGitter | <tekjar> Hi. I'm trying to use if else condition as an expression --> https://glot.io/snippets/ekpek92m04 |
13:14:52 | FromGitter | <tekjar> What's the mistake in that example? |
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13:15:50 | FromGitter | <tekjar> It works if I remove 'var' in if condition |
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13:22:10 | Varriount|Mobile | tekjar: I believe that's a bug |
13:22:36 | Varriount|Mobile | Although assignments aren't usually of that form. |
13:26:42 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, there many problems which `msvcrt.dll` handles for Nim, and FILE handles maybe simpliest |
13:27:13 | cheatfate | `setjmp`,`longjmp` is most problematic |
13:28:05 | Varriount|Mobile | cheatfate: I'm not talking about abandoning the C library, just writing a mechanism to load an official version |
13:29:11 | Varriount|Mobile | Although I'm fairly sure setjmp and longjmp are intrinsics |
13:29:41 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, not available for public |
13:29:59 | Varriount|Mobile | What? |
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13:31:34 | Varriount|Mobile | cheatfate: What's not available for public? |
13:33:01 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, intrinsics |
13:33:20 | cheatfate | intrinsics is something compiler inserts to your code without importing libraries |
13:33:28 | Varriount|Mobile | Yes |
13:33:54 | cheatfate | look at the exports of `msvcrt.dll` |
13:34:04 | cheatfate | number 710 |
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13:35:12 | cheatfate | 1159, 1201 |
13:35:17 | Varriount|Mobile | cheatfate: That doesn't necessarily mean that they are always used. |
13:35:41 | cheatfate | ok look at the imports of any windows nim executable |
13:35:57 | Varriount|Mobile | Anyway, how would using different versions of msvcrt complicate using setjmp/longjmp? |
13:36:04 | Varriount|Mobile | I'm on my phone |
13:37:43 | cheatfate | while you are using `msvcrt.dll` your code will run on any windows version... i think even NT4 can run nim executable |
13:38:21 | cheatfate | if you make it linkable to most modern `crt` you will need to bring this annoying `vcruntime` distros with nim executable |
13:43:26 | Varriount|Mobile | cheatfate: Which is why I proposed writing a loader stub to seek out an official version of the C runtime library |
13:45:07 | Varriount|Mobile | The problem with msvcrt.dll is that's it's A) Unsupported/unofficial , and B) Not optimized for modern systems |
13:45:52 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, what does it mean unsupported/unofficial it comes with every windows |
13:46:49 | Varriount|Mobile | cheatfate: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20140411-00/?p=1273 |
13:47:32 | Varriount|Mobile | It was originally meant to be used only by the *system* libraries, not external applications. |
13:49:21 | elrood | what benefits would you expect from using more recent version of the windows runtime, if the one you can reliably expect to be present will still only be the old msvcrt? |
13:50:05 | Varriount|Mobile | elrood: Bug fixes and C99 support, for one. |
13:50:24 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, this link you give me, dont call msvcrt.dll unofficial or unsupported and not optimized for modern systems |
13:50:32 | Varriount|Mobile | As one comment from that post put it: |
13:50:45 | Varriount|Mobile | "The horror of MinGW piggybacking on MSVCRT instead of implementing its own Windows-compatible CRT is the reason one can't printf a long double in MinGW: MinGW uses 80-bit long doubles, while the CRT considers a long double the same as a double…" |
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13:51:43 | elrood | Varriount|Mobile, sure, but still one can only confidently rely on what msvcrt provides, right? more modern implementations of memory allocators alone would be worth it probably, but apart from that, what's the motivation? |
13:51:56 | Varriount|Mobile | cheatfate: It's unsupported for use by non-system applications |
13:52:19 | Varriount|Mobile | https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2014/06/10/the-great-c-runtime-crt-refactoring/ |
13:53:16 | Varriount|Mobile | " In many parts of the code, optimization techniques that were valid and useful decades ago not only obfuscated the code and made it difficult to maintain, but also hampered the modern compiler’s ability to optimize the code." |
13:54:54 | elrood | no one is questioning the usefulness of a modernized runtime. the important point is whether you can count on it being present on the system you are expecting your code to run on |
13:55:40 | Varriount|Mobile | elrood: Which is why I was contemplating the possibility of writing a C runtime loader |
13:56:15 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, so you want to add something which will looks for appropriate crt runtime dll? |
13:56:28 | Varriount|Mobile | Yes. |
13:56:58 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, and i want to remove this dependency at all |
13:57:42 | Varriount|Mobile | You mean, no CRT dependency at all? |
13:57:48 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, yep |
13:58:43 | Varriount|Mobile | Sounds a bit hard to do, especially considering the fact that any other C libraries used by Nim will most certainly require it anyway |
13:59:07 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, most of Nim code for windows don't use C libraries |
13:59:31 | cheatfate | i think 99% of windows nim code do not use C libraries |
13:59:53 | Varriount|Mobile | cheatfate: But C wrappers (pcre, sqlite) still do. |
14:00:14 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, but i dont think its Nim problem |
14:01:12 | cheatfate | Varriount|Mobile, if your nim executable don't use `msvcrXXX` but `pcre.dll` uses it, it will be loaded in memory anyway |
14:01:32 | cheatfate | so there no problems with wrapper libraries |
14:01:56 | cheatfate | the only problem is to write stub code which will not use c runtime |
14:02:46 | cheatfate | almost all functions of runtime has appropriate alternatives inside of `kernel32.dll`, `ntdll.dll`, `user32.dll`, `advapi32.dll` |
14:04:05 | cheatfate | but main problem for me to rewrite stub is how to compile `setjmp`/`longjmp` which can be implemented only via assembler |
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14:05:57 | Varriount|Mobile | By the way, here's another piece of hope for the future: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2014/n4028.pdf |
14:06:54 | cheatfate | yeah and C++ is also becomes a problem |
14:07:11 | cheatfate | because it handles exceptions in some other way |
14:10:49 | cheatfate | ehh, but nobody cares about windows here :) |
14:11:09 | cheatfate | to help me with windows stub library |
14:26:53 | cheatfate | its funny windows headers has _setjmp instrinsic but didn't have _longjmp, mingw has both intrinsics |
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14:28:33 | stisa | looks like enums with holes do not work in js? This: https://glot.io/snippets/ekpgg1ns4l works with c, but gives an error with js. |
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14:53:07 | dom96 | stisa: bug report please |
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15:08:29 | stisa | dom96: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/5062 |
15:08:59 | dom96 | stisa: thanks! |
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16:07:46 | deech | Hi all, I'm testing out a small snippet using the compiler as a dependency and when I build I get 'Error: cannot open 'rstast''. It's using the config file:'/home/deech/Downloads/nim-0.15.2/config/nim.cfg' since I built Noim from Github. |
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16:15:35 | Araq | add lib/packages/docutils to your Nim search --path |
16:15:42 | deech | nm, had to add 'path="$lib/packages/docutils"' to nim.cfg. |
16:16:00 | deech | Thanks! |
16:18:33 | Araq | use the Nim from github for this, the compiler API changed |
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16:44:16 | deech | Is there a version of Nim syntax that isn't indentation sensitive for codegen purposes? Thanks! |
16:52:13 | Araq | codegen is better done by generating the AST and using the AST to text renderer |
16:52:18 | Araq | like c2nim does it. |
16:54:13 | Araq | or you use a macro. |
16:57:45 | deech | Thanks! |
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19:29:11 | Varriount|Mobile | Araq: You mean we shouldn't be parsing and generating code using regexes? |
19:30:01 | Varriount|Mobile | :p |
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21:35:24 | libman | Hope y'all help me share, share, and downright push Nim news on social media - ex see my post in http://forum.nim-lang.org/t/2631/2 ;) |
21:36:23 | libman | If Facebook/Google is not making you do CAPTCHA yet, then you're not sharing as hard as I am. :P |
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21:57:59 | Varriount|Phone | Araq: I'll be pushing up a new version of the scripts I developed to convert Windows header files into forms suitable for c2nim |
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21:59:28 | Varriount|Phone | While the resulting files still need some hand editing, it's nowhere near the amount the unprocessed ones require. |
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23:39:55 | FromGitter | <ephja> is it possible to do s[x] *= y where `[]` is overloaded? |
23:40:31 | cheatfate | ephja i think it possible if `[]` is returns `var type` |
23:41:16 | cheatfate | because `*=` takes first argument by reference as `a: var type` |
23:50:04 | Varriount|Phone | Might also be possible with a ref type too |
23:51:12 | FromGitter | <ephja> nope. `s[x] = y` won't work either unless []= is defined |
23:56:23 | FromGitter | <ephja> would this be the best solution if it had worked? |
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