<< 30-11-2016 >>
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06:53:00Varriount|PhoneAraq: Do you know of a master list of pubic Windows SDK header files? The ones that are meant to be directly included by programs?
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07:43:02chemist69pubic windows? LOL :D
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08:15:56Varriount|Phonechemist69: public in the programming sense
08:16:43Varriount|Phonechemist69: I have a script which processes the entire Windows sdk to make it relatively suitable for c2nim
08:17:29Varriount|PhoneHowever if I use c2nim, I need to know which modules should be exposed
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08:22:55cheatfateVarriount|Phone, i know its a tough work, but why you are doing it?
08:23:56cheatfatenobody uses so hard platform sdk
08:24:13cheatfatesome guids, some structure declarations
08:26:15Varriount|Phonecheatfate: "so hard platform sdk"?
08:27:11cheatfatei mean if you don't plan to make MFC you don't need whole windows sdk
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08:32:55Varriount|Phonecheatfate: I'm not including the foundation classes
08:33:12Varriount|PhoneI still need a sane module structure though
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09:27:55chemist69Varriount|Phone: I know you meant public, but you wrote `pubic`. Sorry, lame joke.
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09:53:22ibkit seems the only way to add query params to http request is modify the url string directly, CMIIW
10:03:02FromGitter<vegansk> Hi to all. It was a long road back to Nim :-) I have a question about generic-concepts branch (https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/tree/generic-concepts). Is it dead? GitHub says "836 commits behind devel".
10:04:00AraqI reviewed it once and it seemed merge-able
10:04:28AraqI know zahary never stops developing nim, so it's not dead either
10:04:42Araqbut progress is SLOW ;-)
10:05:36ArrrrWelcome my friend.
10:08:49AraqArrrr: fixed your ModuleName bug
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10:09:47ArrrrReally? but that's great! I'll confirm it to you next week, i don't have linux right now
10:10:30Araqit's a Windows specific bug
10:10:46Araqif you have a Linux issue, then it's perhaps some different bug?
10:11:03Araqhttps://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/5076
10:13:11ArrrrWell, lowecasing everything would have been more convenient, but i guess it would lead to less issues if it is strict with the path
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10:19:30ArrrrBut i think this will break a lot of stuff. If someone else like me uses the same name for module and type, nim will complain. I don't know how popular this convention is.
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10:20:18Arrrr"Expected type, got module". Can't nim discern when you actually need one over the other?
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10:20:41Araqcan do that, yes
10:20:49Araqbut that's a feature request, not a bugfix
10:20:56Araqhi javax welcome
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10:23:28ArrrrI says this because, coming from java and c#, you get used to name file and type the same. And i think that's good but in case it isn't, there should be a note on module naming convention, because i think there isn't
10:23:35Arrrr*say
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10:36:36FromGitter<vegansk> Arrrr, https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/3333
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14:33:37vktecWhat's the best way to raise a compile time error? I'd like to raise an error if someone tries to compile something on an unsupported OS, for example
14:35:55Araq{.error: "your computer lacks a CPU and your GPU cannot run the OS".}
14:37:16vktec:D
14:38:23vktecHmm.. what's the difference between that and the fatal pragma? ie, when would compilation _not_ abort?
14:39:19Araq"nim check" doesn't stop after the first error
14:42:00vktecAh, of course
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15:26:00vktecI've noticed there aren't many Nim video tutorials. If I were to make some, would it be possible to add them to the "Standards & Guides" section on the documentation page? Or perhaps a new category should be created for unofficial tutorials and guides
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15:35:05PMunchvktec, not speaking on behalf of Araq but if they were good enough I guess he'd add them
15:36:24vktecCool! I'm working on a preliminary plan. Anything I should include?
15:37:04PMunchHmm, you could always start of with a basic introduction/primer video?
15:37:15vktecYeah, I was thinking of doing that
15:37:34Varriount|PhoneMake sure to explain how sequences and strings copy on assignment
15:37:42vktecI might separate metaprogramming into a separate series, since that's a whole other topic
15:37:46vktecVarriount|Phone: Will do
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15:43:43yglukhovAraq, dom96: pls review https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/5069
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15:43:50chemist69vktec: very good initiative! If I might add: explain the difference between object and ref object and between newObject() and initObject()
15:44:26vktecchemist69: Gotcha. Any good resources to just check my own understanding of it?
15:44:43vktecI'm pretty sure I understand it, but I'm not 100% sure
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16:04:24chemist69well, nothing special, the two tutorials on the site and dom96's book, if you have it.
16:11:01Araqyglukhov: looks clean enough, I can merge it if you need it today
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16:23:31yglukhovAraq: would be cool. but why only if i need? any concerns?
16:24:02Araqno, but it's dom96's business
16:27:05yglukhovAraq: ok, i can wait for him. hopefully it wont take long =)
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16:38:02athiehmm... getting out of memory error when using a property assignment style proc together with a Table... https://gist.github.com/Athaudia/c74ce48487152a6763dc298fc6e28f69
16:43:03athienot sure if misunderstanding from my side, or compiler error
16:49:35yglukhovathie: that should definitely go to the issue tracker.
16:50:05athienods will do so (just wanted to pre check if i missed something obvious)
16:51:29AraqI get illegal storage access instead
16:52:43yglukhovi suspect stringcopy tries to copy the string from some wrong address, so its more of an undefined behavior
16:54:02yglukhovi'm getting a long alloc+zeromem, and then SIGSEGV
16:54:52Araqthis is the most puzzling bug I've ever seen
16:55:13Araqno sys assertions trigger
16:55:31athieposted on the issue tracker
16:56:34Araq`test=`(t, a["b"]) # works
16:56:37athiei'm highly confused myself, it took an hour or so to even find what it was that causes this bug in my system... was burried in some macros before i made it a small test case :P
16:56:51Araqt.test = a["b"] # fails
16:57:06athiehmm, aren't those two supposed to be equivalent?
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16:57:45Araqthey are but the semcheck misses a pointer deref
16:57:50AraqI think.
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17:04:46Araqyup, codegen bug, LOC2 instead of *LOC2 and C cannot be bothered to do any kind of reasonable type checking
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17:06:03athie*shudders* this is exactly the kinda stuff why i'm moving from c to nim ^^
17:06:45dom96yglukhov: awesome, you fixed the extraInternalIndex problem. I don't how I missed this solution, I hope I'm not forgetting something here...
17:06:47Araqcompilation to C++ would have prevented this, I think :-)
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17:08:41dom96yglukhov: I probably don't know how dynlibOverride works, but in https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/5069/files#diff-09ce05d4800aaaa6014de76809a63957R193
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17:09:13dom96yglukhov: (see logs if you missed my message) ... you are using the dynlib pragma
17:09:16dom96Is this correct? Araq?
17:10:47dom96In any case, I'm happy to merge.
17:10:50dom96Just curious about this
17:12:09Araqhmm? what's up with today that I don't understand anything
17:12:19Araqwhat does your question mean?
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17:13:28dom96Araq: Take a look at the code I linked
17:13:34dom96Does it make sense?
17:14:17Araqhow is that line different from all the other lines?
17:14:19dom96okay, I looked at the docs for dynlibOverride and I think it does
17:14:33Araqthe lnie
17:14:35Araqwhen compileOption("dynlibOverride", "ssl"):
17:14:38dom96I mean that whole code block in general
17:14:48dom96and yes, linking to that would have been more sensible (sorry)
17:14:51Araqactually requires a compiler patch that is included in this PR
17:15:33dom96I was just confused why the 'dynlib' pragma is necessary when we are statically linking, but now I understand that the dynlibOverride switch just gets rid of that pragma
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17:17:58Araqyeah that's weird
17:18:28Araqbut otherwise it would require a 'nodecl' which is weirder, so I think it's fine
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17:22:34vktecWhat would be a good project to use for a tutorial series? It should use a good proportion of Nim's features, and have some dependencies so I can show off nimble, but still be simple enough for a new Nim programmer
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17:23:58dom96vktec: Awesome that you're doing this! I was considering (maybe I'll still do it if I get the time :)) creating a video series based on my book as like an additional resource for it.
17:24:06vktec:)
17:24:52dom96For your videos, one idea might be creating a snake game clone in Nim
17:24:57vktecOoh, good idea
17:25:22dom96You could even show off the JavaScript backend for that
17:25:29vktecThat'd be cool
17:25:55dom96Start off by using SDL and after implementing that make some (hopefully small) changes to get it working in an HTML canvas
17:26:16vktecIf I structure it using a renderer module, I can just swap it out for the JS backend
17:26:21dom96yeah :D
17:26:39vktecThanks for the idea dom96
17:26:47dom96It's definitely possible (i've created a little game using the JS backend)
17:26:58dom96I've got a wrapper for canvas too if you want it
17:27:07dom96I should really put it into a nimble package
17:27:21dom96or you can show how to wrap canvas too
17:27:24dom96so many possibilities :)
17:28:07vktecShowing how to wrap canvas would be good, as it shows off Nim's FFI, and how it works across backends
17:28:28dom96I showed that in my book :)
17:28:38dom96but feel free to do the same
17:29:22vktecWell, some people find video tutorials useful for learning a language, whereas the book can be used as more of a reference
17:29:33vktecI found that when I was new to programming
17:30:13vktecNow that I've been programming for a while, I can pick up new languages quite easily, but when you're new to it, a bit more hand holding can be useful
17:30:40dom96Agreed completely. That's how I started programming.
17:30:52dom96By watching VB.NET videos :)
17:31:28vktec:)
17:31:31dom96Which is why I want to create videos based on my book as well.
17:31:58vktecThe more the better, I'd say. I'm sure we'll show different things anyway
17:32:17dom96Yep, definitely. You can never have too many videos.
17:32:26vktecI agree
17:32:37dom96And right now I'm pretty sure there are no videos at all :)
17:33:08vktecYeah, I couldn't find anything other than talks made by Araq
17:33:28vktec(Which are very good, by the way. I watched one today)
17:35:05vktecHmm... why the two SDL2 packages? sdl2 looks like the way to go, since it's official, but I thought I'd check
17:38:03FromGitter<nikolay-turpitko> dom96, where can I find your book?
17:38:41vktecNow reading the README of sdl2_nim (in elinks, because my browser broke). It seems to say that sdl2 is less well documented
17:39:26dom96nikolay-turpitko: https://manning.com/books/nim-in-action?a_aid=niminaction&a_bid=78a27e81
17:41:50dom96vktec: good question
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17:50:53PMunchvktec, I'm using the sdl2 package and it is pretty simple to work with
17:51:09PMunchWritten a small cross platform game library with it :)
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18:08:29vktecPMunch: Cool, I'll go with that then
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18:20:28PMunchAraq, given any more thought to the auto-bracketing thing from L.B. Stanza?
18:20:52PMunchhttp://lbstanza.org/chapter2.html#anchor15 <- that to be precise
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18:23:47AraqPMunch: it doesn't solve the 'head' problem, unfortunately
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18:23:56Araqwhich is the hardest problem iirc
18:25:05PMunchHead problem?
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18:25:42Araqfoo:
18:25:44Araq bar
18:25:46Araqfoo2:
18:25:48Araq baz
18:25:50Araqvs
18:25:53Araqif x:
18:25:55Araq bar
18:25:56Araqelse:
18:25:58Araq baz
18:26:17Araqfoo2 introduces a new "block", 'else' does not
18:27:35PMunchAnd the problem?
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18:32:27PMunchOh right, you can't introduce a new block for every :\n as lbstanza does.. That means that it won't work for how Nim works right now..
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18:34:10Araqwell I can certainly insert () like lbstanza does
18:34:19Araqbut 'else' needs to stay a keyword
18:34:26Araqsince it needs a special parsing rule
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18:57:37wuehlmausproc square(inSeq: seq[float]): seq[float] = (
18:57:37wuehlmaus result = newSeq[float](len(inSeq));
18:57:37wuehlmaus for i, v in inSeq: (
18:57:37wuehlmaus result[i] = v*v;
18:57:37wuehlmaus )
18:57:39wuehlmaus)
18:57:46wuehlmausthis is very coo, Araq
18:57:46PMunchHi wuehlmaus
18:58:07wuehlmausi think this should have revolutionized python
18:58:18wuehlmausPMunch: hi, my friend
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19:05:05yglukhovdom96: you're right, dynlibOverride should be ignored in that branch of code.
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19:08:40Varriount|PhoneRegarding the restructuring of the dll import mechanisms, I think that is probably big enough to warrant some sort of write-up (Enhancement proposal) before implementation.
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19:29:26AraqVarriount|Phone: yeah, I don't think it will happen anytime soon
19:29:43Araqit could break lots of stuff for minor gains
19:33:49PMunchWhy are you thinking of changing the DLL system?
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19:41:21yglukhovVarriount|Phone, Araq: the initiative can be started by doing a nimble lib that will cover existing dynlib functionality + will add some more. until this library is done and works good theres nothing to discuss
19:41:39yglukhovimo =)
19:43:33Araqyglukhov: I think dynlib should support taking a DLL handle
19:44:03Araq--> better interaction with dynlib module
19:44:13Araq--> simple, non breaking change
19:44:23yglukhovAraq: i think so too, but my main accent is the userland lib instead of compiler magic
19:44:35Araqbut I don't know about the implementation problems
19:44:48Araqso it could still mean a day of work :P
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19:47:21yglukhovno way im doing that inside the compiler. unless another critical issue strikes me and it will be the fastest hack =)
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19:55:03Araqyglukhov: I'm slowly rewriting the C backend and once complete, it should be easier to hack
19:55:22Araqinstead of ropes I generate an AST
19:55:43Araqbut boy, it takes time to rewrite 5000 lines of code
19:58:17yglukhovAraq: dont get me wrong, i dont want to do dynlink in nim not because its not easy to hack. but because of my confidence that everything that can be done in userland should be done there. compiler should be extended with only low-level intrinsics. high-level magic such as current dynlib should be gone.
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20:00:13yglukhovand nim has already got enough low level stuff to support dynlib in userland
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20:01:19yglukhovthat simplifies maintanance for you btw, so you should welcome that ;)
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20:01:46Araqyglukhov: I'm always concerned about compile times
20:01:56Araqbuiltin is always faster than userland
20:02:26Araqand the average Nim user doesn't care that Nim is so awesome that .dynlib was implemented as a macro
20:07:50yglukhovwell, i have almost no arguments against that. but since CT is where nim shines you should expect users to go really crazy with it (like transpiling nim to glsl shaders or what not). and you should be concerned about general-purpose ct performance.
20:08:45yglukhovso it can easily handle such primitive use-cases like dynlib-as-a-macro :P
20:09:03AraqI replaced the AST based interpreter by a bytecode VM to speed up ct
20:11:33wuehlmausAraq: how long did it take you?
20:11:42wuehlmaushmm, might be german english
20:12:33yglukhovand thats awesome. but its not the end i suppose? e.g. we might cache the bytecode so its not regenerated on every run. or we might use real code instead of bytecode and some jit or smth.
20:15:23Araqathie: fixed.
20:15:58Araqyglukhov: in retrospect I would generate C code and cache it
20:16:11Araqbut that has its own problems, as usual
20:16:33Araqwuehlmaus: the VM took 2 weeks to write and then months to fix the most serious bugs
20:18:34athieAraq: yay :) updated nim, removed workaround in my codebase, and works fine now
20:18:57Araqwas too embarrassing. :-)
20:20:50athiethe one thing that's embarrassing to me is how much smaller my codebase is in nim after porting from C... barely 3500 lines so far xD
20:22:15athie(down from about 10k)
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20:38:04Varriount|Phoneathie: And performance?
20:38:57athieVarriount|Phone: so far about same'ish, close enough that it's fine for me ^^
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20:42:19Varriount|Phoneathie: You can try enabling Link time optimization
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20:42:57Varriount|PhoneIf nothing else it will lower the code size
20:43:59athieas said, performance isn't an issue right now(and that includes custom SW blitters xD) just getting used to nim and porting my personal libraries ^^
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20:47:55krux02is there a simple way to delay the init of a library into an init function call?
20:49:33Varriount|Phonekrux02: I know the VCC compiler supports delay-load libraries
20:49:35krux02I have several global variables in a package, now I realized, that I can't initialize a single one of them, because to do that I need to wait until I have an opengl context
20:50:18krux02Varriount: it's not about loading, it is about initializing all variables in global scope
20:50:26krux02I need to prevent that from happening
20:50:46krux02until after I call explicitly an init proc (for example)
20:51:19krux02lazy would also work (as soon as I access the first procedure)
20:51:23Varriount|Phonekrux02: Do what would happen if the variables were accessed before initialization?
20:51:45krux02segfault and crash
20:51:51krux02but that's not really a problem
20:52:39krux02or invalid operations from Opengl
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21:03:09Varriount|Phonekrux02: I mean, if a delay load mechanism were being used
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21:15:57krux02Varriount: the delay is important, because certan variables I initialize with opengl calls. The problem is just, that I do not have opengl calls from the beginning of the program. If I call into opengl before creating a context, and loading the function pointers, the opengl call will just be a segfault, because it will try to execute a nil function pointer
21:19:12Varriount|Phonekrux02: sounds like you need to do away with global state and have a context object
21:19:37Varriount|Phonekrux02: Perhaps you could post a link to the code (or a snippet)?
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21:22:04krux02Varriount: I just refactored my code to use an object instead of global variables
21:22:39krux02that means all my functions got an object as an additional parameter
21:22:57Araqthat means you appreciate {.this: self.} :-)
21:23:08Araqhappens to me all the time when I refactor in the compiler
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21:23:40krux02Araq: ok when that pragma does what I think, then I really would appreciate that.
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21:30:16Araqkrux02: my perlish blog post explains how it works :P
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21:40:23Varriount|PhoneI find it confusing, but then again, I'm used to python
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23:33:38Varriount|MobileAnyone here running KDE?
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23:40:09FromGitter<konqoro> me!
23:41:06FromGitter<konqoro> <Varriount|Mobile> : do you use kate?
23:41:40Varriount|Mobilekonqoro: No, I use Windows.
23:42:16Varriount|Mobilekonqoro: I just wanted to know, how much memory is KDe and its associated processes currently using?
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23:45:58FromGitter<konqoro> well plasmashell (the Desktop) 156MB total, kwin (the window manager) 89MB total
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23:46:55FromGitter<konqoro> and krunner (the search thing) 80MB
23:47:24Varriount|Mobilekonqoro: I assume you have some windows open?
23:47:47FromGitter<konqoro> a few
23:49:53Varriount|MobileHm, interesting
23:50:16Varriount|MobileI wanted to compare memory usage of KDE and Windows Explorer
23:50:24FromGitter<konqoro> why are you asking?
23:50:32Varriount|Mobile(Or rather, the Windows shell)
23:51:14FromGitter<konqoro> so how match does the Windows shell uses?
23:51:39Varriount|MobileOn my laptop, Explorer is using 64, and the window manager 73
23:52:07Varriount|MobileLet me look at the memory map though, I don't know how much is paged out
23:55:22Varriount|MobileThe total working set (all memory including shared) for Explorer is 112 MB, and the window manager is 84
23:56:34Varriount|MobileKonqoro: I just find it interesting how similarly featured programs, one open source, the other private, both use similar amounts of memory