<< 31-08-2020 >>
00:00:26leorize[m]disruptek: araq just dropped a brand new concepts implementation
00:00:43disruptekyeah, i felt a disturbance in the force.
00:02:24FromDiscord<Hearthstone> There's multiple types of forces, please specify-
00:06:40disruptekmaybe, but only one makes my nuts tingle.
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00:31:34FromDiscord<Hearthstone> Lmao
00:32:17FromDiscord<Hearthstone> If someone rewrites https://gitlab.com/litecord/litecord ***COMPLETELY*** in Nim, I'll be impressed-
00:32:27FromDiscord<Hearthstone> I might eventually do it but doubt it
00:48:29FromDiscord<exelotl> anyone know if there's an nicer way to pass a code block to a template as a named parameter? https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vK2
00:49:22disruptekuse do:
00:49:52FromDiscord<exelotl> does `do` let me name the parameters?
00:52:42disrupteki dunno.
00:54:51FromDiscord<exelotl> ideally I could e.g. specify blocks `a` and `c` and omit `b` and it would default to nothing
00:56:12disruptekhmm, i dunno how to achieve that.
00:57:58FromDiscord<exelotl> ah, guess it's the sort of thing I'd have to use a dsl macro for
00:58:31FromDiscord<exelotl> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vK7
01:01:09FromDiscord<exelotl> the thing is I'm already wrapping such a macro... don't want to wrap a dsl with a dsl 🤦
01:12:26FromDiscord<exelotl> welp looks like I'm writing the macro lol
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01:43:12FromDiscord<Varriount> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vKe
01:43:58FromDiscord<Varriount> The bash way of having to escape newlines using a backslash irks me.
01:45:42Prestigecan't load the paste?
01:48:22FromDiscord<Varriount> Hm
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01:48:52FromDiscord<Varriount> @Avahe Works for me
01:49:00Prestigeah weird
01:50:03FromDiscord<Varriount> Yardanico: Could the discord-irc bot split the code blocks from discord messages into their own link, but leave the non-code text alone?
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01:50:55FromDiscord<Varriount> Prestige: The message I wrote before the code paste was, "Hm. For a shell language that's meant to be run via files, would the following syntax make sense for multi-line commands?"
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01:51:48FromDiscord<Varriount> Are you still not able to access it? I know that there have been some internet disruptions lately
01:54:53PrestigeI can now, earlier it wasn't letting me
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02:01:36FromDiscord<Varriount> Prestige: What do you think?
02:03:53PrestigeI missed the first part of the convo: are you proposing a format or asking about bash?
02:06:10FromDiscord<Varriount> I'm proposing a format
02:06:24FromDiscord<Varriount> For a theoretical shell language
02:06:25Prestigelooks fine w/o the colons
02:08:35FromDiscord<Varriount> Yes, but for a multi-line command, you need some sort of marker to distinguish between a multi-line command and a number of single-line commands.
02:08:55Prestigecant use a tab?
02:10:14FromDiscord<Varriount> Oh, hm. I hadn't thought of that
02:10:44FromDiscord<Varriount> Yeah, a tab/multiple leading spaces would be a better indicator
02:11:47Prestigeif it's practical, I'd prefer it
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04:49:33FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> agreed
04:49:40FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> never understood the arguement for {}
04:49:46FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> because you do that + a tab
04:50:00FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> save yourself some debugging time hunting for which bracket you didn
04:50:05FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> (edit) 'didn' => 'didn't close'
04:50:24FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> and for simple commands you can oneline them anyway
04:50:37FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> eg while 1 + 1 == 2: echo "Hello World!"
04:50:49FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> works as a oneliner
04:50:53FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> `{}` are way less error prone than indent
04:51:02FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> in which way>
04:51:18FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> I've always found it harder to hunt errors with `{}`
04:51:40FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Indent level can change the logic, where as `{}` causes a compilation error and is impossible to move logic outside the enclosing
04:52:04FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> on the flipside, it's much easier to identify incorrect indents
04:52:28FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> much harder to skim over something and find a bracket you forgot to close somewhere
04:52:29FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Yea they both have benefits, i personally dont care which
04:52:45FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> Neither is a deal breaker for me, but tab is def preferred
04:52:56FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Well yes, but it's really hard to not close `{}`
04:53:01FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> It's not
04:53:04FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> Ah i also prefer tabs
04:53:11FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> I mean most IDEs auto close them
04:53:16FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> they do
04:53:26FromDiscord<Elegant Beef> So unless you're using a shitty editor it's really hard to fuck it up
04:53:28FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> issue mostly comes when you edit something, remove opener but forget to remove closer
04:53:47FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> I wrote a simple platformer game from scratch in java using notepad
04:54:13FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> I've since moved to VScode
04:54:17FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> thankfully
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04:54:27FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> but not closing {} would cause huge problems
04:55:07FromDiscord<iWonderAboutTuatara> eventually you do what the ide does but worse where when you open { you instinctually close it then go back a char and start writing
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05:08:25FromDiscord<impbox> the only advantage i see for {} blocks is the tools generally have nice support for jumping over blocks, i'm sure it's doable with indentation too but seems less editor support
05:09:52FromDiscord<impbox> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/896145/more-efficient-movements-editing-python-files-in-vim looks like vim has some support for it with python, though need to test if it works in nim
05:10:22FromDiscord<impbox> nope
05:22:13ZevvI used to have a first gen internet radio more then 10 years ago called the Imp Box
05:22:16Zevvit still runs
05:22:39FromDiscord<impbox> oh music radio?
05:23:18Zevvhttps://www.cnet.com/news/magicbox-imp-radio-goodness-internet-style/
05:23:29Zevvwow almst 15 years, thats like forever in internet time
05:23:41Zevvits in the kitchen playing bbc every day
05:24:18Zevvwell, not this model, but same family
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05:57:07voltistDoes anybody else feel that humans have kinda just done everything that could be done with moderate computing power? Like I can't think of any truly new paradigms, not just optimizations or applications, since deep learning
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05:59:15ZevvI guess one reason is that innovations in software cost next to nothing - you do not need to invest 3 billion dollars to research a new field or to make a proof of concept. High chance to make profit, low barriers for entry.
05:59:44ZevvNearly no regulations at all
06:00:29ZevvYou don't first neet to setup a lab with tons of equipment like you would when trying to make hip new stiff in medicine or genetics, for example
06:01:20Zevvotoh, your argument is kind of silly. There still *is* tons of innivation going on in software, it's just that *you* can not come up with anything right now.
06:01:30ZevvYou could have come up with any of the big software booms of the last decade
06:01:32Zevvbut you didn't
06:01:34ZevvI didn't
06:01:40Zevvsomething must be wrong with us!
06:03:05voltistThis isnt about me coming up with things. My point is that if there is innovation, I haven't heard about it, so it feels like everything has come to a stand still
06:03:38voltistMedia just goes on about new products/services, but none of it is actually *new*, just a better way to profit from existing technology
06:03:49voltistOr to apply it to new fields
06:04:00voltistBut the methods are pretty much the same
06:04:35Zevvso, when did that happen, in your opinion?
06:04:41ZevvWas it different, like, 10 years ago?
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06:05:40ZevvWhat might have changed is that computing is now about about *everywhere. If you apply it to everything in the world, then yes, in the end there is a stagnation because there is nothing more left to apply it to.
06:07:23Zevvand 99.9% of new stuff is not new. It's always just building on what was already there. True innovations are rarer than you think.
06:07:47voltistHonestly I can't think of any specific 'last' innovation, but that's probably just because I'm not good at remembering when things happened (especially seeing as I've only watched the space for the last few years)
06:08:13voltistMaybe I'm just feeling pessimistic today, so my brain refuses to believe that things were ever going on :)
06:08:27Zevvmy neighbour talks to her kitchen radio to order cheese
06:10:40Zevvthe university in my little town has gear to do arbriratry cut & pasting on DNA
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06:11:59Zevvbut yeah, looking at a 2007 or a 2021 iphone, you could wonder what the hell went wrong
06:14:10voltistI think a lot of things that look like innovations at first are just scaled up. Like GPT-3 is amazing, but its just a really big version of smaller language models in the end; the actual tech is the same, just with more compute. Makes you wonder when (if?) another innovation is going to come round and do everything better that deep learning for
06:14:10voltistless compute, or if that's the end of the road...
06:14:43voltistSame for other very general methods of solving problems
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06:28:52leorize[m]@impbox nim.nvim does implement section movements if you're interested
06:29:52FromDiscord<impbox> I'll have to try neovim
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07:10:51Araqyay now I'm concerned about GPT-3
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07:49:38FromDiscord<impbox> "OK GPT-3, create me a programming language better than Nim"
07:49:56FromDiscord<Rika> inb4 it says it cant
07:50:40FromDiscord<impbox> OK GPT-3, resolve all Nim github issues so that all parties are happy
07:52:46Zevvbut again voltist: what *are* the last of the "great innovations" then in your opinon?
07:53:44Zevvoh you answered that already, sorry :)
07:53:57Zevvmaybe you're just feeling pessimistic today
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08:20:41FromDiscord<Varriount> Araq: Regarding the serialization RFC, I think the annotations would be better if they were placed in a construct that indicated what format they are a part of (similar to go's annotations).
08:21:54FromDiscord<Varriount> For example, `fieldName {.json(name: "", ...).}: FieldType`
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08:53:22FromDiscord<Ricky Spanish> im a bit confused with interop, i can finally get it to build my wrapper but what am i supposed to output to make it usable as a regular library in nim? like ```nim c -d:release -d:headerDL thelib.nim``` using this command it produces a .exe, i can also get a .dll but really all i want is to have the wrapper available via nimble so do i just upload my wrapper to git and then somehow include it and it will automatically produce the w
09:07:54AraqVarriount: so reply to my RFC
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09:19:34Araqso ... my most basic Iterable concept works now.
09:20:43Araqtook me a day of work
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09:50:56FromDiscord<mratsim> Are there cases where dynamicBindSym is buggy? SHouldn't that be taken off of experimental?
09:51:26Araqis it used?
09:51:37AraqdynamicBindSym makes me nervous
09:53:02FromDiscord<lqdev> i feel like dynamicBindSym could've been a 1000x more useful if it could be used to resolve syms from the callsite
09:54:15AraqI don't fully understand the consequences of dynamicBindSym
09:54:20Araqcan't make it non-experimental
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09:55:14FromDiscord<lqdev> speaking of experimental features, why is the `do` notation experimental?
09:55:58Araqcause it sucks
09:56:24Araqthe only reason it remains is that we don't have anything better :-)
09:57:57FromDiscord<lqdev> so what _wouldn't_ suck in your opinion?
09:58:17AraqI don't know :-)
09:58:29Araqat least
09:58:40Araq'do' for anon procs should be removed
09:58:55Araq'do' for blocks with special cased precedence parsing rules seems unavoidable
09:59:15FromDiscord<lqdev> y'know, `do` for anon procs can actually be fully replaced with macros
09:59:19FromDiscord<lqdev> so there's that
10:00:08Araqwrite an RFC already ;-)
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10:22:46FromGitter<alehander92> hmm
10:22:53FromGitter<alehander92> new concepts?
10:23:16FromGitter<alehander92> is this only impl or also syntax change
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10:45:18the-oakshello
10:46:21FromDiscord<Rika> hello there
10:48:32the-oaksit is my first time using IRC, just testing thing out lol
10:49:10FromDiscord<Rika> what do you normally use?
10:49:58the-oaksgitter is probably easier to use
10:50:42FromDiscord<Rika> there's a gitter bridge here
10:51:14the-oaksyeah - I realised that, look like you are talking from Discord as well
10:59:38Araq<alehander92> see https://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/168
10:59:39disbot➥ Concepts and type-checking generics ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=23U8
11:02:17alehander92welcome the-oaks
11:02:20alehander92Araq thanks
11:02:37FromGitter<the-oaks> @alehander92 thanks :)
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11:02:59FromGitter<the-oaks> I am still pretty new, so just observe and learn :)
11:03:17alehander92ok
11:03:20alehander92ask if you need to!
11:03:21the-oaksand trying different way to chat lol
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11:04:29alehander92Araq what happened to proc/iterator/func etc
11:04:45alehander92would a type need to have exactly the same thing
11:04:49alehander92as in the concept
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11:10:09Araqjust read it
11:10:38leorize[m]are you gonna incorporate any aspects of https://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/168#issuecomment-593410686 in?
11:10:39disbot➥ Concepts and type-checking generics ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=23U8
11:11:45FromDiscord<Clyybber> this is alno
11:12:02FromDiscord<Clyybber> almost how concepts already work
11:12:26FromDiscord<Clyybber> imo the new syntax should be implemented as a macro
11:12:58FromDiscord<exelotl> Whatever replacement we end up with for `do`, would be nice if it could make multi-line arrow functions feel cleaner↵(See: https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/6399 )
11:13:37AraqI'm implementing what I outlined is necessary for marshalling
11:14:02leorize[m]@Clyybber isn't the big problem with the current system is that it's based on `compiles()`?
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11:16:11FromDiscord<Clyybber> not really a problem IMO
11:18:23leorize[m]compiles is slow
11:19:33krux02leorize[m], compiles hides reasones why something does or doesn't compile
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11:19:50leorize[m]that too
11:20:04FromDiscord<Clyybber> well thats why we have explain
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11:33:15PMunch@the-oak, yeah Nim has a lot of ways to chat :P
11:35:06FromDiscord<Rika> you pinged some poor lad
11:35:08FromDiscord<Rika> in discord
11:35:20alehander92<3
11:35:24alehander92Araq sorry
11:35:39alehander92i read some of it but i couldnt it
11:37:59PMunch@Rika, woops misspelled his name..
11:50:45FromDiscord<Clyybber> Araq: Wdyt about https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/15236#issuecomment-682956350
11:50:46disbot➥ fix #15035
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12:03:07shashlick@Ricky Spanish see nimarchive or nimgit2
12:04:06shashlickGittyup uses nimgit2, nimph uses gittyup
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12:12:20PMunchCan I force an integer to be non-static for a test?
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12:23:57FromDiscord<Clyybber> read it from a file :)
12:24:08FromDiscord<Clyybber> other than that I don't think so
12:24:20FromDiscord<exelotl> let a = 5 then use a?
12:26:23FromDiscord<exelotl> var five {.importc: "5", nodecl.}: int
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12:27:59PMunchOoh, that importc trick might work
12:28:47FromDiscord<Clyybber> even then the C compiler will have it be static
12:31:47PMunchThat doesn't matter too much for me
12:32:18PMunchI just want to ensure that the Nim compiler uses the procedure overload without `static`
12:38:54PMunchHmm, importc throws a weird IndexDefect in the compiler..
12:40:18Zevvhow do you mean "non static"
12:41:10PMunchI wanted to add a `to id`(val: SomeInteger) and `to id`(val: static[SomeFloat]) to fixedpoint, to match with the two versions of `set`
12:41:40PMunchI guess SomeFloat wouldn't match 5 anyways though..
12:42:05Zevvnope
12:43:05AraqClyybber: maybe we shouldn't have merged it but it looked like a good idea and still does
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12:44:11FromDiscord<Clyybber> but openarray is always a view right?
12:44:20FromDiscord<Clyybber> It doesn't make sense to take ownership of a view
12:44:25FromDiscord<Clyybber> it should be forbidden IMO
12:48:24PMunchZevv, did some cleaning up and added some constants to fixedpoint: https://github.com/zevv/fixedpoint
12:49:48PMunchAmongst other a step and amount of steps variables
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12:50:32Zevv\o/
12:51:01PMunchIt has worked very well for me by the way :)
12:51:22FromDiscord<Clyybber> Araq: Just like we forbid `sink lent` (or at least should)
12:51:49AraqClyybber: you can take ownership of the array/seq passed to it though
12:52:04Araqand if it's openarray to openarray we could produce a copy
12:53:39FromDiscord<Clyybber> Hmm, I guess? But I don't see the benefit
12:54:12FromDiscord<Clyybber> There won't be any copies anyways, so sink looses its benefit there IMO
12:55:50Araqthe point is to allow
12:56:11Araqfor i: dest[i] = move(src[i])
12:56:29Araqif you have a better idea how to allow that I'm all ears
12:57:33Araqsink openArray[T] is technically more like openArray[sink T]
12:58:33Araqbut type modifiers in not-head positions are a mess, see "let's add 'const' to Nim"
13:00:38FromDiscord<Clyybber> hmm, yeah that makes sense
13:02:42ZevvPMunch: good to hear
13:05:21FromDiscord<tomck> Does nim have 'output iterators' like c++, or an equivalent?
13:05:42FromDiscord<tomck> So, i have a function which will return a list of T, but that function is typically used in a context where you're concatenating many lists of T
13:06:13FromDiscord<tomck> so instead of having my function return a list of T, then concat later & have a billion allocations, can I have my function take an 'output iterator' which it puts Ts into, to provide a generic interface?
13:06:21Araquse a 'var T' parameter with append semantics and sugar.dup
13:06:24FromDiscord<tomck> Or i guess i just make my proc an iterator, and do the pushing in the parent func?
13:06:36FromDiscord<tomck> what're 'append semantics'
13:06:38FromDiscord<tomck> and sugar.dup
13:06:44FromDiscord<Rika> inplace semantics
13:07:10FromDiscord<tomck> is there an example / resource?
13:07:22FromDiscord<Rika> sugar.dup makes inplace functions outplace or whatever its called; aka instead of modifying input, it returns the modified as output
13:07:35FromDiscord<Rika> nim's sugar module contains the docs for `sugar.dup`
13:08:21Araqhttps://nim-lang.org/blog/2020/04/03/version-120-released.html scroll to the section "Dup"
13:08:35Araq(our blog should have more anchors... :-/ )
13:11:11FromDiscord<tomck> i see, so i just take a var seq[T], append to that, then use sugar.dup to generate the 'other version' of the function if needed that just returned the seq[T]?
13:11:33*the-oaks quit (Remote host closed the connection)
13:12:02FromDiscord<tomck> hooooooooooly shit, x => x * 2 is valid syntax? that's neat that you can do that with the macro system
13:12:30Prestigedup is pretty neat
13:16:16*disruptek curses third-world internet.
13:17:35PMunchHmm, I have a tricky problem
13:18:42PMunchI've integrated Nim into an application. It can run an "operate" procedure from any of the threads it has started. Now I want to add a cache to this setup, but it needs to run some updates on the cache in the background.
13:19:03PMunchSo I want to spin up a new thread and have the "operate" procedure communicate with this thread
13:19:37PMunchBut since I don't do the thread initialisation it's kinda hard to set up channels for communication for example..
13:20:24disruptekoperate should be able to do it, though.
13:21:05disruptekyou can have as many channels as you have threads, for example.
13:23:01PMunchBut I don't know how many threads I have
13:23:11disruptekis it important that you know?
13:24:01PMunchWhat do you mean?
13:24:24PMunchAs it is now every call to operate is so stand-alone that I haven't really cared about the fact that it runs on a thread
13:25:30PMunchI guess I could have one "request" channel where I put a data structure with what I'm requesting from the cache, and a pointer with where to put the result
13:25:45PMunchThen just have the thread busy-loop on a nil-check for the pointer until it goes non-nil
13:26:25PMunchAnd just make sure that the cache thread keeps the memory there alive
13:27:18disruptekmaybe i don't understand, but it seems like when you enter operate, you'll know which thread you are and you'll know whether you have a worker thread you can talk to.
13:27:49disrupteka spin loop sounds pretty lame.
13:30:45PMunchWell, the main program is the one that creates the threads. Operate is just called from one of these threads
13:31:21PMunchI can call the posix function to get the current thread id
13:31:48PMunchI also have a "setup" call
13:32:00PMunchThat's where I plan on spinning up the cache thread
13:32:28PMunchAnd then I need to communicate somehow back and forth between arbitrary threads and that thread
13:34:22disruptekright, but the communication can happen on the channel you create in setup.
13:34:38PMunchYeah, but I need a way to send the reply back
13:35:28PMunchI can push request objects onto a shared channel for the cache, but it needs a way to respond
13:36:06disrupteki guess you could have a buffer of responses with a lock on it.
13:39:04disruptekthe cache thread writes to a response channel and a semaphore on the buffer blocks a response read. if it's not the right response for the thread, it keeps reading. if the response is in the buffer, it doesn't block.
13:40:12zedeusjust checked nitter statistics, we're now getting ~7 million requests and 70k unique visitors per day, while still using less than 100 MB memory and ~50% CPU
13:40:55PMunchzedeus, damn, that's pretty impressive
13:41:57disruptekwhat's the average latency of a request?
13:43:48zedeusa few milliseconds or so
13:44:29disruptekso mostly cache reads.
13:45:36zedeusoh you mean how long requests take on average, dunno
13:46:08zedeususing a simple httpclient pool i was able to make everything a bit faster
13:47:39disruptekwhat happened with the google stuff?
13:49:27zedeusthats for the job im starting soon
13:49:33Araqzedeus, nice, can you write a guess blog post for us please?
13:50:07narimiran+1
13:53:14zedeushmm what should it cover? the numbers are cool but i'm not sure what story can be told, it's just jester with asynchttpserver
13:53:56disruptekproblems you ran into and the solutions you employed.
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14:00:00disrupteki'd like to get into writing but i dunno what people would want to read.
14:00:33disruptekwell, i know what araq wants to read.
14:00:38disrupteki dunno about the rest of you.
14:01:02FromDiscord<Ricky Spanish> not sure what im doing wrong here with nimterop : ``` Error: undeclared identifier: 'headerPath'``` i dont see where its meant to get header path from, it states that you can pass flags for it to evaluate the headerpath but none of them have worked for me, the header path i want is included from the extract zip file in ``` -d:headerDL``` also thanks @shashlick ill look into libgit and archive
14:01:29FromDiscord<Ricky Spanish> for this line ```cImport(headerPath, recurse = true)```
14:01:35disruptekhave you tried the simplified ui to nimterop?
14:01:50FromDiscord<Ricky Spanish> nope didnt know there was a ui id prefer that
14:02:12disruptekyeah, it usually produces a wrapper in just a few minutes.
14:02:35disruptekjust say, "shashlick shashlick va-va-va-voom."
14:02:37FromDiscord<Ricky Spanish> ok will give it a go, it jjust a flag i need to pass or another project?
14:02:53disruptekthen produce whatever material he asks for when he appears.
14:03:19disrupteka few minutes later, a gist will be pasted to irc with your wrapper in it.
14:04:20FromDiscord<Ricky Spanish> 😆 does sound preferable than trying to figure this out
14:04:52Araqand then somewhat later that Araq complains about how to write wrappers instead
14:07:02*PMunch quit (Quit: Leaving)
14:09:02disrupteki've used it numerous times. the araq part is kinda a bummer, but the shashlick part works really well.
14:09:25disrupteksee, #nim is all about bikeshedding software that doesn't exist.
14:11:00FromDiscord<Ricky Spanish> nvm it was my bad my brain is not functioning today my header obviously isnt called header.h so looking for headerPath wasnt going to work
14:13:17FromDiscord<flywind> https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vMn
14:13:46FromDiscord<flywind> Is this a known issue?
14:14:54Araqit works as it should, you cannot cast an object to a pointer
14:15:13disruptekwell, it's requires init that's the problem.
14:15:40Araqhow so?
14:16:05disruptekbecause no one would bother to include times and use Time if they weren't pointing to requires init.
14:16:45disrupteki mean, there's a proc which exists only to not-init an object.
14:16:56disruptekwhat does it all mean?
14:17:15disruptekwe're drowning in a sea of syntax.
14:17:22disrupteki can't feel my legs!
14:19:09Araqso init your Time objects, big deal
14:19:46Araqwhy is it that out of all mental activities *programming* must be accomplishable without a brain
14:21:59disruptekbecause the alternative is that i freeze to death when the snow flies.
14:22:25disruptekthis country is headed for a disasterous winter.
14:26:34Zevvall you need is winter. The disasters are already there
14:28:32AraqWinter is coming and along with it some dragons
14:29:07disruptekchurch.
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14:37:05FromDiscord<flywind> @Araq Thanks.
14:37:17FromDiscord<flywind> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vMu
14:37:26FromDiscord<flywind> I think I should use this.
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14:37:56FromDiscord<flywind> (edit) 'https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vMu' => 'https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vMv'
14:39:23disrupteki stand corrected.
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14:44:08Araqso. my concepts work
14:44:23disruptekverbosity ftw?
14:44:43Araqwriting a spec first ftw
14:45:01disruptek!rfc concepts author:araq
14:45:01disbothttps://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/168 -- 3Concepts and type-checking generics 7& 6 more...
14:52:44FromDiscord<Varriount> Zevv: Ouch. But you are correct. 😛
14:57:23shashlick@Ricky Spanish - what's up
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15:04:06FromDiscord<Ricky Spanish> sent a code paste, see https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vMJ
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15:13:48shashlickset outdir to an absolute path
15:13:53shashlickuse getProjectCacheDir()
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15:16:13Araqhi def-, thanks for merging my PR so quickly
15:17:20FromDiscord<Ricky Spanish> awesome thanks for the tips @shashlick
15:31:19FromDiscord<Varriount> Araq: Are these the concepts as outlined in RFC 168, or something different?
15:33:04AraqI follow my RFC
15:33:14disruptekyuk.
15:33:54Araqbut I'm not implementing 'each T' nor 'either orelse'
15:34:23disruptekso the impl is incomplete and poorly specified.
15:34:40AraqI'm only working on what https://github.com/nim-lang/RFCs/issues/247 needs
15:34:41disbot➥ Flexible serialization with a mild focus on JSON ; snippet at 12https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vhM
15:34:46disruptek/home/adavidoff/git/gram/gram/graph.nim(11, 53) Error: type expected
15:34:58disruptekGraph*[N, E; F: static[int]] = ref GraphObj[N, E, F] ##
15:36:26Araqdisruptek, maybe once I'm done I'll update the spec
15:36:32disruptekorder-sensitive type section ftw.
15:36:48disruptekAraq: writing the spec after the impl ftw?
15:36:54Araqit's an iterative process
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15:58:36FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Man if you try googling most innovative programming languages, easiest to learn, new and emerging, fun, etc... you can't find Nim almost anywhere. Only by using python like can you find it. This is quite sad.
16:00:15FromDiscord<Recruit_main707> a lot of us came looking for static python and found nim (i think)
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16:00:29FromDiscord<Kiloneie> that's how i found it too D:...
16:00:38PrestigeI was looking for a better C alternative
16:00:55FromDiscord<Kiloneie> before that, all i could find was D and the other already quite popular new ones.
16:01:33FromDiscord<Kiloneie> yeah it is here: https://alternativeto.net/software/c-programming-language-/
16:02:51FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Probably the only way people find Nim really, alternative to C and Python.
16:03:16PMunchOr word of mouth
16:03:32FromDiscord<Kiloneie> That as well, but it is a drop in the ocean...
16:03:43PMunchDon't underestimate HN articles, YouTube videos, presentations, or just talking to people about it
16:05:03FromDiscord<Kiloneie> I need to step up my game xD... if i can get enough views going, maybe the algorithm picks me up, then i might contribute there.
16:05:25FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Hmmm... shouldn't i add keywords such as alternative to C and Python to my video tags ?
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16:25:54FromGitter<Knaque> Is there a convenient way of getting a display's refresh rate?
16:27:20narimiranspeaking of HN, now on its frontpage is that nim 1.2.6 and 1.0.8 have been released. lol
16:28:00FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Whats HN ? hacker news ?...
16:28:05narimiranyep
16:28:14FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Thats good
16:28:44FromDiscord<Kiloneie> im finding quora questions of alternatives to C and python and adding Nim 😛
16:29:00FromDiscord<Kiloneie> #selfpromotion
16:29:13FromDiscord<Kiloneie> i might get banned D:
16:29:28narimiranprobably
16:32:44PMunchnarimiran, now? That's a bit late isn't it? :P
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16:33:01FromGitter<Knaque> I frequently promote Nim on r/programmerhumor, I even asked them to add a Nim flair but I don't think that ever got done.
16:34:02narimiranPMunch: hacker olds
16:34:12PMunchHaha :P
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16:52:10FromDiscord<Kiloneie> I should do this more often as by promoting Nim i promote myself, synergetic relationship D:
16:53:40FromDiscord<lqdev> did you mean symbiotic?
16:53:50FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Idk how to do it on reddit without getting banned, i can only do it once...
16:54:02FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Oh yeh that word
16:54:59FromDiscord<Kiloneie> You should hear my Slovenian, i know the words in english for things, but forget them in my own native language xD...
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17:11:07alehander92please be chill about it
17:11:08alehander92:D
17:11:42alehander92and yeah this happens with me as well i think :D
17:12:16FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Im not losing memory, i know how human brains work with memory
17:12:53FromDiscord<Kiloneie> im mostly on my computer and there everything is english, so it's only logical that my native starts to get replaced, removed.
17:13:37*ofelas joined #nim
17:18:18FromDiscord<lqdev> @Kiloneie same here
17:18:31FromDiscord<lqdev> sometimes i struggle to find an appropriate word or phrase
17:18:42FromDiscord<lqdev> because my brain is just so used to thinking in english
17:19:04FromDiscord<Kiloneie> I often just say it in english if i can't figure it out quick xD
17:21:45disrupteki have that problem, too.
17:23:07disruptekyou know what's worse, though?
17:23:20disruptek!repo fusion
17:23:20alehander92you know only russian
17:23:22disbothttps://github.com/nim-lang/fusion -- 9fusion: 11Fusion is for now an idea about how to grow Nim's ecosystem without the pain points of more traditional approaches. 15 57⭐ 4🍴 7& 1 more...
17:23:25FromDiscord<Kiloneie> I have integrated "like" into my vocabulary. At my previous job Bosnians had a really hard time understanding me xD...
17:23:36alehander92sorry this was fals
17:23:38alehander92e
17:23:59alehander92you do know english
17:24:57FromDiscord<Kiloneie> Has reddit been overtaken on google ? I tend to find it very rarely, gotta add reddit at the end to find disscusions on things...
17:25:16disruptekthen i guess google hasn't taken over.
17:25:42Zevv"Fusion aims to be an immutable code repository, once a module is included it stays". So we will make sure everything always keeps running with all future versions of Nim?
17:25:59disrupteknah.
17:26:22disruptekdon't believe everything you read on the internet, zevv.
17:26:28Zevvbut it's on the internet
17:26:47disruptekoh, good point.
17:27:27disruptektake the blue pill, wake up, and believe whatever you want to believe.
17:27:29FromDiscord<Kiloneie> My answers have been viewed quite a bit already... answers on quora. I might see a mount everest on my analytics tomorrow xD...
17:28:11FromGitter<Knaque> Why is this (https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vNQ) throwing a type mismatch?
17:29:29FromDiscord<Kiloneie> can't get traceback since the first traceback is from gradient...
17:30:43FromGitter<Knaque> You'll need to run it on your machine. `nimble install gradient`
17:30:48ZevvPMunch: these elifs should really be whens
17:31:04ZevvI don't want these branches ending up in the code, the types should enforce this
17:31:19Zevvoh dang
17:31:26Zevvit *is* whens. 'when' 'elif'
17:31:29Zevvthat's nasty
17:31:41ZevvI was looking for 'elwhen', but couldn't find it :)
17:32:19disrupteknoob.
17:32:23Zevvsoo noob
17:32:52Zevvso, let's take a bet. I want to make a generic type with 5 things in the brackets, of which 2 are actually *used* in the type, and the rest are ignored
17:33:04Zevvbut should be *part of* the type to make them unique
17:33:11Zevvwill that work? [ ] Yes [ ] Np
17:33:13ZevvNo
17:33:39disruptekyes.
17:33:59disruptekbut, they can't be completely ignored.
17:34:45Zevvhmm but I only need them to 'when' and dispatch on
17:34:51alehander92Yes
17:34:58disrupteki do this in gram.
17:35:04Zevvnow what's gram
17:35:12alehander92oh i remember
17:35:12Zevvhow many projects are you actually making up
17:35:14alehander92a stream about it
17:35:15Zevvand how many are real
17:35:17alehander92it was the graph right
17:35:21alehander92no i remember stuff
17:35:24disruptekmy graph types are composed with a set of flags that get baked into the type.
17:35:25alehander92finally i am relevant
17:35:46disruptek!repo gram
17:35:47disbothttps://github.com/disruptek/gram -- 9gram: 11Generic graphs in Nim 15 7⭐ 0🍴 7& 4 more...
17:35:49FromDiscord<Clyybber> hello relevant
17:35:52FromDiscord<Clyybber> I'm clyybber
17:36:05disruptekdad?
17:36:13FromDiscord<Clyybber> sup son
17:36:47Zevvso, can frosty serialize your gram graphs then
17:36:52disruptekyeah.
17:36:55Zevvgood boi
17:36:58zedeuslove the work you guys are doing, keep it up
17:37:11FromDiscord<Clyybber> "work"
17:37:14alehander92<3
17:37:16ZevvI shall now star gram
17:37:18FromDiscord<Clyybber> :p
17:37:23ZevvI have just starred gram
17:37:26alehander92guys i want to write a feature history app
17:37:32alehander92i'll ask questions
17:37:34ZevvI only write future history apps
17:37:39disruptekit's not special or fast, it's just supposed to be useful.
17:37:54disrupteki'm merging skiplists into it now.
17:38:06FromDiscord<Clyybber> are your skiplists finally skiplists?
17:38:15disruptekyeah.
17:38:18FromDiscord<Clyybber> nice
17:38:47disrupteki might make a clyybber version for you. it will force me to conceptualize everything, which will be good.
17:38:57FromDiscord<Clyybber> lol
17:38:59disruptekassuming araq's concepts don't suck, i mean.
17:39:11FromDiscord<Clyybber> I'm making a macro to have araqs concepts on the old ones
17:39:15alehander92hmm
17:39:19disruptekSimpLists ## clyybber version of skiplists
17:39:20FromDiscord<Clyybber> because apparently nobody did that yet
17:39:23alehander92oh new concepts
17:39:25alehander92i wonder
17:39:30alehander92can we just .. remove functons
17:39:34alehander92like guys
17:39:41alehander92can we simulate functions with macros
17:39:46alehander92and special case for recursion
17:39:48disruptekactually, we do need a featureset lib.
17:39:50alehander92with auto stack
17:40:05disruptekwe already have that in cps.
17:40:06alehander92and a loop
17:40:12alehander92if we need to use a concept less
17:40:25disruptekwut
17:40:34alehander92can we remove functions
17:40:37alehander92and have a normal language
17:40:39FromDiscord<Clyybber> no
17:40:40disruptekno.
17:40:45alehander92basically something like
17:40:49alehander92everything inline
17:40:50FromDiscord<Clyybber> well, you would just be implementing a inliner
17:40:52alehander92expand instead of call
17:40:55FromDiscord<Clyybber> yeah
17:41:02alehander92but without recursion
17:41:06alehander92what *is* the problem
17:41:10disruptekno goto.
17:41:12alehander92except of course size/speed and everything
17:41:21alehander92why no goto?
17:41:26FromDiscord<Clyybber> I don't understand how the new concepts are supposed to replace the old ones, but afaict they aren't?
17:41:33FromDiscord<Clyybber> but then, why do we call it concepts
17:41:34alehander92you can have goto
17:41:43disrupteki mean, you can if you want.
17:42:02alehander92but you don't need it
17:42:09alehander92as the control still can return
17:42:15alehander92if you have the right primitives
17:42:28disruptekit's a limitation to do it without functions.
17:42:40alehander92but isn't macros enough
17:42:42alehander92my point is
17:42:47disrupteknot really, no.
17:42:55alehander92can we have a language with macros + 1-2 niceties => instead of functions
17:43:05alehander92because functions only can't replace macros
17:43:08alehander92it seems
17:43:09disrupteklol
17:43:17disruptekwhat are these "niceties" of which you speak?
17:43:33alehander92a return
17:43:41alehander92which returns to the expr after the expansion
17:43:42disrupteka return from what?
17:43:42alehander92beginning
17:43:50alehander92you still have expand stack
17:43:53alehander92instead of call stack
17:43:56disrupteksounds like goto.
17:44:03alehander92return is goto
17:44:11alehander92almost
17:44:16alehander92like, nothing wrong with goto
17:44:30alehander92if it's not used direvtly
17:44:36alehander92but in an abstraction
17:44:48FromDiscord<Clyybber> alehander92: Sure you can
17:44:50disruptekwell, sure. you write it. it can be made in nim trivially.
17:45:03FromDiscord<Clyybber> You can have a lang without functions
17:45:09FromDiscord<Clyybber> only macros/templates
17:46:04Zevvwhy can't I shl with a negative amount
17:46:06Zevvthis is so silly
17:46:18Araqyou can shr it instead
17:46:24ZevvYeah but now I need a branch
17:46:31Zevvand two lines
17:46:51Araqnot sure what's silly about an explicit "I need a div, wait no, a mul"
17:46:58Zevv:)
17:46:59disrupteklol
17:47:16alehander92hm
17:47:21disruptekthat quote is a keeper.
17:47:29ZevvI need to shift left by (W1-W2) when W1 > W2, or shift right by (W2-W1) when W2 > W1
17:47:31alehander92but i suspect something might be not there
17:47:39alehander92like, it seems easy
17:47:41FromDiscord<Clyybber> Araq: How can the tests pass in your concept branch?
17:47:49FromDiscord<Clyybber> Do we not test the old concepts at all?
17:47:57Araqwe do
17:48:14AraqI figured out how to evolve Nim without breaking anybody's code ;-)
17:48:24disruptekeveryone is afraid to use them so they don't show up in any code.
17:48:30alehander92maybe the problem is that it's almost always lazy evaluation
17:48:57Araqdisruptek, tests/concepts, it's totally a thing
17:49:19disruptekclyybber: my skiplists exist for use in cps.
17:49:31disruptekwhat you may not appreciate is that every operation is atomic.
17:49:32FromDiscord<Clyybber> Araq: Why not do it with a macro though?
17:49:39Araqalehander92, removing functions is backwards even CPUs have quite a good idea about them
17:49:54disruptekit's very hard to break my impl with multiple threads accessing the same structure.
17:49:55alehander92i know , i am just wondering if it's possible for fun
17:49:59AraqClyybber: I don't see how we could
17:50:13alehander92like, how easy would it be to make a lang with only templates
17:50:19FromDiscord<Clyybber> Araq: I'm working on one, will see how it turns out
17:50:23alehander92which supports many concepts: generics/functions/templates
17:50:49Araqalehander92, it's always "possible" for some super hand wavy definition of "possible" that you seem to be happy with
17:50:57FromDiscord<Clyybber> Basically transforming proc cmp(a, b: self): bool into cmp(a, b) is bool
17:50:59Zevvgod I love this language so much, sometimes it makes me cry
17:51:06alehander92i am happy for "it doesn't seem impossible ?? "
17:51:12FromDiscord<Clyybber> Zevv: which one/
17:51:16Zevvfrench
17:51:18alehander92so it goes to "maybe try that one day"
17:51:19disrupteklol
17:51:27Araqwhen I tell you in which ways it's "impossible" you wouldn't listen anyway
17:51:35alehander92that's not true
17:51:43Araqyou don't care about "Impossible" ;-)
17:52:03alehander92sounds like a Nike ad :D :D :D
17:52:08FromDiscord<Clyybber> Araq: No, tell me :)
17:52:19alehander92"sashko trying to solve the halting problem"
17:52:25alehander92"NOTHING IMPOSSIBLE"
17:52:31Araqalright how about we start with the nasty detail that you don't know if it's recursive or not when you have function pointers in your language
17:52:47FromDiscord<Clyybber> Oh, I thought you were talking about the macro :D
17:53:19alehander92Araq well, i can just not support function pointers
17:53:24Zevvdisruptek: you're a generic man, think with my. I have a proc taking two ints of possible different size ('8, '16, etc), and I want the return type to be the largest of the two. Can that be genericized
17:53:44alehander92but it was mostly a thought experiment guys
17:53:51disruptekof course.
17:54:10Zevvhow does one express that then
17:54:20disruptekmeasure the size with sizeof in a when cond.
17:54:22FromDiscord<Clyybber> Zevv: When sizeof(T1) > sizeof(T2): T1 else: T2
17:54:30alehander92and i am not sure about mutual recursion
17:54:36alehander92if it's possible to easily simulate it
17:55:00ZevvBut I can't put a when cond in the return type, can I?
17:55:05Zevvcan I?
17:55:06FromDiscord<Clyybber> sure you can
17:55:08disrupteksure.
17:55:11Zevvdude
17:55:12Zevvdudes
17:55:12alehander92can we put a man on the spoon
17:55:27AraqClyybber: is my RFC not convincing?
17:55:42disruptekwho cares, i'm waiting for the impl to finish iterating.
17:55:45FromDiscord<Clyybber> Not for me :P
17:55:47Araqwhy would you want the old concepts when you can have the new ones?
17:55:54disruptekthe old ones are nicer to use.
17:55:58FromDiscord<Clyybber> Because the old ones are far more powerful
17:56:12alehander92why have functions dudes when you can have alehander92 lng design
17:56:23disruptekclyybber: that was one of the "non-goals."
17:56:42disrupteki guess i've just gotten attached to functions.
17:56:57FromDiscord<Clyybber> And sometimes its nicer to express stuff with the old ones, like in andreaferettis example
17:57:24alehander92we can autotranslate between them
17:57:27alehander92maybe
17:57:38disruptekthat's what he's working on.
17:57:41alehander92but this would fragment things more
17:57:55FromDiscord<Clyybber> no, a macro can support the new syntax
17:58:06alehander92yeah but then you have 2 syntaxes
17:58:17FromDiscord<Clyybber> so?
17:58:24Zevvdisruptek: I think you are lying to me. https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vNY
17:58:24FromDiscord<Clyybber> thats not a problem
17:58:25alehander92this is not cool in general imho
17:58:30FromDiscord<Clyybber> huh?
17:58:38FromDiscord<Clyybber> it is very cool in general
17:58:38alehander92like, imagine having a non-trivial language feature
17:58:41AraqI fail to see how the Monoids look worse with my syntax
17:58:41alehander92and 2 syntaxes for it
17:58:57disruptekhttps://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vNZ
17:59:07Zevvso noob
17:59:07alehander92well i mean it's not super desirablee, now with an existing language it's harder to change stuff
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17:59:21FromDiscord<Clyybber> alehander92: What are you talking about?
17:59:22alehander92but you have a "learning budget"
17:59:25FromDiscord<Clyybber> There would be one syntax
17:59:28FromDiscord<Clyybber> theres a macro
17:59:29disrupteki blew that budget years ago.
17:59:33alehander92so what happens with the old one
17:59:43FromDiscord<Clyybber> alehander92: Think about it concretely
17:59:47alehander92but i do
18:00:14alehander92if i have a feature, i prefer reading only one way in codebases how the people use it
18:00:24disruptekbummer.
18:00:35FromDiscord<Clyybber> `proc '+'(x, y: self): self` vs `x + y is T`
18:00:35alehander92templates and macros are different
18:00:44alehander92because macros are more general
18:00:49FromDiscord<Clyybber> sometimes its nicer to write the left one, sometimes the right one
18:00:50alehander92and expose more stuff
18:01:09alehander92clyybber and now a new nim user has to learn both
18:01:15FromDiscord<Clyybber> so what
18:01:16Araqyou're so quickly with everything
18:01:25alehander92i mean it's not a problem nvm
18:01:30Araqright now I see how far my idea can be taken
18:01:43Araqand already you talk about two ways to do things and shit
18:01:45disruptekthey should just learn the old way and we should just teach araq, a single nim user, to fix his spec.
18:02:06alehander92i have no problem with it
18:02:10disruptekgood.
18:02:12disruptekit's settled, then.
18:02:15alehander92sorry, just talking about possible confusion
18:02:20FromDiscord<Clyybber> alehander92: See, Nim has a lot of ways to write one thing
18:02:24FromDiscord<Clyybber> but it doesn't hurt it.
18:02:29alehander92but .. this is not the saME
18:02:36alehander92but let's not really discuss it
18:02:44FromDiscord<Clyybber> lets do ;)
18:02:44disruptekway ahead of you.
18:02:46alehander92too easy to leave the wrong impression
18:03:08FromDiscord<Clyybber> alehander92: Sorry, I didn't mean to be dismissive
18:03:14Araqhow can you type check generic code with the old concepts? I claim it's nearly impossible
18:03:27alehander92maybe, all i was saying was
18:03:28Araqnow fight over that instead
18:03:32FromDiscord<Clyybber> I say, we do it how we do it rn
18:03:37alehander92that even if the new concepts are super cool
18:03:46disrupteki claim that it's slow, and that's not the only problem.
18:03:49alehander92it would be a bit frustrating for some users to have both
18:03:53alehander92but no biggie
18:04:01AraqI say, the way we do it right now is embarrassing.
18:04:13disruptekyeah, it's not good enough.
18:04:16FromDiscord<Clyybber> I say its great
18:04:21FromDiscord<Clyybber> but it can be improved
18:04:22disruptekbut that doesn't mean it's a syntax issue.
18:04:31Araqit's a hack and the hack is in the spec
18:04:32alehander92i don't know enough
18:04:40alehander92so i should go the feature thing
18:04:51FromDiscord<Clyybber> Araq: What some people call a hack other people call a groundbreaking invention :D
18:04:54alehander92do the *
18:04:57Araqcan't "fix" the implementation for a hacky spec
18:05:07FromDiscord<Clyybber> Whats there to fix?
18:05:13disruptekhe just wants to remove compiles.
18:05:21FromDiscord<Clyybber> Yeah, but compiles is great
18:05:33Araqdisruptek, I don't mind 'compiles' but it's not a foundation for a type checker
18:05:35disruptekso you just want to make compiles faster.
18:05:50disruptekfair enough, so we need typeCompiles.
18:06:12disruptekthis is the concept of a conceptual type.
18:06:18FromDiscord<Clyybber> I don't see why it can't be a foundation for a type checker?
18:06:25FromDiscord<Clyybber> clearly it can
18:06:29disruptekit's too expensive, apparently.
18:06:31FromDiscord<Clyybber> even if it can be considered hacky
18:06:35FromDiscord<Clyybber> I would say its quite elegant
18:06:44Araqwell so write a spec for system.compiles
18:06:47disruptekalso, witness nimph, it doesn't work for even simple uses.
18:06:51Araqwe need one anyway
18:07:03FromDiscord<Clyybber> Yeah
18:07:05alehander92it's good to have more
18:07:11Araqbbl
18:07:11alehander92fine-grained primitives?
18:07:14alehander92is that the problem
18:07:18disruptekno.
18:07:26alehander92oh so close to being smart
18:07:40disruptekthe problem is that we're using a giant hammer to swat a fly.
18:07:44alehander92almost felt the rush from that 7th grade exam
18:07:51alehander92yes
18:07:53alehander92that's similar
18:08:03alehander92you can use some subfunctionality
18:08:06disruptekwhat the hell were they teaching in 7th grade?
18:08:07alehander92specific for this case
18:08:11alehander92math?
18:08:21disruptekmath?
18:08:30disruptekwhat does pest control have to do with math?
18:08:37alehander92aaaaah
18:08:52alehander92uhmm
18:09:13FromDiscord<Clyybber> disruptek: See, even typed params for macros can be considered hacky
18:09:25*thomasross quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
18:09:25FromDiscord<Clyybber> but they work now; and they are pretty fundamental
18:09:27alehander92can't we have macros for types
18:09:28FromDiscord<Clyybber> to what you are doing
18:09:36disruptekyou don't need to convince me.
18:09:37FromDiscord<Clyybber> alehander92: Guess what I'm doing :)
18:09:39Araqthey are *more* fundamental
18:09:45Araqthan untyped macros.
18:09:48disrupteki've wanted concepts for a long time and i finally gave up waiting.
18:09:50Araqwe got that one wrong.
18:09:57disrupteka month later, they are finally being rewritten.
18:10:08Araqdisruptek, yeah, be happy :-)
18:10:10Araqbbl
18:10:15Zevvand all within 1 day only
18:10:22alehander92disruptek quickly
18:10:28disruptekthey can't be that fundamental if no one ever runs into this shit but us.
18:10:33alehander92say you give up X
18:10:44FromDiscord<Clyybber> disruptek: Tell that to andreaferetti, mratsim, etc
18:10:46disrupteklike, what, mescaline?
18:10:51Zevvyes please
18:10:56alehander92give up all drugs
18:11:00FromDiscord<Clyybber> They are fundamental in the sense that they are incredibley powerful
18:11:24disruptekwell, it's the empty room problem.
18:11:34Zevvright
18:11:41disrupteki just don't understand it.
18:11:50disrupteki thought i bought a house with two bathrooms.
18:11:54disruptekthis is a fucking closet.
18:12:03FromDiscord<Clyybber> there is no problem, we gotta fix the bugs, one by one, or three by three
18:12:05disruptekthird time this week i'll have shit in a closet.
18:12:28FromDiscord<Clyybber> and you gotta report them :)
18:12:37disruptekc'mon man, i can't report everything.
18:12:41disruptekminimizing takes forever.
18:12:55FromDiscord<Clyybber> yeah, but if you want it to get fixed you gotta do it
18:12:57disruptekand the fucking compiler doesn't help me write code to minimize code faster.
18:12:59FromDiscord<Clyybber> thats the thing
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18:13:06FromDiscord<Clyybber> we can reinvent all features
18:13:10FromDiscord<Clyybber> and reimplement them
18:13:16disruptekthat just means new bugs.
18:13:21disruptekbugs i don't know about.
18:13:26FromDiscord<Clyybber> yeah
18:13:30FromDiscord<Clyybber> exactly
18:13:46FromDiscord<Clyybber> a new implementation often seems better because you didn't test it as much
18:14:27disrupteki need more people using testes.
18:14:35disruptekit's pretty good but it needs to get better.
18:14:41FromDiscord<Clyybber> it needs less typos
18:15:42disrupteki'm thinking of making blocks in continuations. then i can run a test and then rewind state.
18:20:30ZevvHow would I make this less repetitive: https://github.com/zevv/fixedpoint/blob/ico/src/fixedpoint.nim#L44
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18:21:23ZevvI tried `template T() = when sizeof(T1) > sizeof(T2): T1 else: T2` but no
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18:21:52disruptekuse a template.
18:22:21disruptekfirst you answer the question of which is larger, then you call the template with the arguments in a given order.
18:22:38Zevvaah dang my brain is porridge today
18:22:56disruptekit kinda seems like you want to case over the cmp.
18:23:35Zevvwut
18:23:55disruptekthere's no case when, right?
18:24:01Zevvnope
18:24:04disruptekthat's just what this looks like.
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18:24:32disruptekin skiplists i went to a lot of trouble to make my own comparison operator and result.
18:24:57disruptekjust because i want undefined comparisons to be a thing.
18:25:29Zevvmuch better: https://github.com/zevv/fixedpoint/blob/ico/src/fixedpoint.nim#L43
18:25:59disruptekremove the return.
18:27:02Zevvyeah just did that. Trying to templetize it further still
18:27:07ZevvI need that pattern in a lot of places
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18:27:48disruptekyou can template the insane proc signatures, too.
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18:32:11FromDiscord<Clyybber> https://play.nim-lang.org/#ix=2vOd
18:33:30Zevvwhat's that
18:33:30disruptekbut he wants to go the other way.
18:33:49*endragor quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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18:33:55disrupteki mean, he wants /us/ to.
18:34:14FromDiscord<Clyybber> Zevv: A macro for a different syntax for concepts
18:34:25FromDiscord<Clyybber> The one outlined in the concept redesign RFC
18:35:11disruptekbut the syntax isn't the part he's trying to address.
18:35:15Zevvno I see
18:35:28Zevvinterfaces on steroids
18:36:06FromGitter<ynfle> Is there any difference between `static: let` and `const`?
18:36:07*maier quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
18:36:25FromGitter<ynfle> Practically and under the hood
18:36:41FromDiscord<Clyybber> yeah
18:36:47FromDiscord<Clyybber> static: let introduces a scope
18:36:51*thomasross quit (Remote host closed the connection)
18:37:03FromDiscord<Clyybber> you can't access the symbol outside of the static block
18:37:08FromDiscord<Clyybber> its stays in static land
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18:38:07FromGitter<ynfle> Other than that? In terms of how the bindings work etc.
18:38:19disruptekthe better question is why compileTime vars are so stupid.
18:42:58FromDiscord<Clyybber> disruptek: It is.
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18:43:11FromDiscord<Clyybber> The syntax is different with the new ones
18:43:43FromDiscord<Clyybber> we can optimize the old ones too
18:43:48disrupteki might be confused.
18:43:59AraqtypeCompiles misses the point as much as 'compiles'
18:44:27Araqwhether it *compiles* or not is actually the less interesting question. the real question is "how to bind the type variables"
18:44:47disruptekwillItBlend()
18:44:51disruptekcall it whatever you want.
18:45:09Araqwhich is why I wrote my concepts in two days and the old ones took months to implement :P
18:45:37FromDiscord<Clyybber> did zah implement the old ones?
18:45:47disruptekit might have been the wrong approach, indeed, but the result wasn't perfect either.
18:45:52disruptekso it's not enough to pass the tests.
18:45:56disruptekthe tests are insufficient.
18:46:15Araqyeah, give me the example you struggled with
18:46:18FromDiscord<Clyybber> I wonder how long it took zah to get the first prototype
18:46:25FromDiscord<Clyybber> and if compiles existed at the time
18:46:31Araqit did
18:46:40disruptekmy current example is in nimph.
18:46:47Araqand to be fair, I don't know how long it took him
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18:47:42Araqbut I've seen the error messages and seen bug reports about exponential compile-times
18:47:51disruptekhttps://github.com/disruptek/nimph/blob/denimble/nimph/groups.nim
18:48:16disruptekhttps://github.com/disruptek/nimph/pull/140
18:48:17disbot➥ nimph 2.0
18:48:21*thomasross quit (Remote host closed the connection)
18:48:21disruptekno, i don't have a minimal repro.
18:48:31disruptekhttp://ix.io/2v3M
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18:48:50FromDiscord<Clyybber> yeah the exponential compile-times are interesting
18:49:23disruptekwhat's fun is when your compile-time isn't exponential but then you add .explain and now it never returns.
18:49:58alehander92but exp time was about caching instantiations
18:49:58alehander92iirc
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18:50:24disruptekhere's the current groups output: http://ix.io/2vOl
18:50:40alehander92my eyes
18:50:58disruptekcurl it.
18:52:02FromDiscord<Bo> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/503656912605151232/680052489990701100/ezgif.com-add-text_1.gif
18:52:13FromDiscord<Clyybber> lol
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18:53:15FromDiscord<Clyybber> disruptek: do you think its hard to minimize?
18:53:50*FromDiscord quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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18:55:31disrupteki dunno.
18:55:57disrupteki don't even really know how many bugs are inside there now.
18:56:12disruptekif you rearrange the order, for example, new ones are born.
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18:59:38ZevvI curled it. My eyes
19:01:38disruptekdust is too stupid about config files to minimize it.
19:01:52disruptekannoying.
19:05:15disrupteki guess nimble refuses to install a package that lacks a .nimble.
19:05:17disruptekannoying.
19:06:52*endragor joined #nim
19:08:33def-Araq: sure
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19:15:48Zevvdisruptek: euhm more noob. How would I templetize these `insane proc signatures`?
19:16:06Zevvbecause I think I have been underestimating templates over the last few years
19:18:27disruptekyou know, something where you can say genericOperator `+`: ... and have it write the generics for you.
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19:26:42Zevvoh yea sure that's what I do know
19:26:56ZevvI thought I could make a template X = [A, B, C, D] or something like that
19:32:58disrupteknah.
19:35:18Zevvit's becoming a strange thing
19:36:08disruptekoh yeah?
19:37:24Zevvyeah
19:38:28disruptekhuh.
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19:48:47*superbia1 is now known as superbia
19:49:00disruptekZevv: it's time for the moment of truth.
19:49:17disruptekfind out if skiplists are faster, and if so, by how much.
19:49:41disruptekand if not, by how much. 😁
19:49:41Araqskiplists?
19:49:49disruptek!repo skiplists
19:49:49disbothttps://github.com/disruptek/skiplists -- 9skiplists: 11generic skip list implementations💃 15 5⭐ 0🍴
19:50:04Araqwhy would they be faster than the more commonly used data structures?
19:50:07disruptekyou won't like them because they don't exploit cache locality.
19:50:19Araqyep
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19:51:01disruptekthat's okay.
19:51:04disruptekthey aren't /for/ you.
19:51:22Araqthe problem is that they are not for the CPU either
19:55:25*bung quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
19:55:33disruptekroughly 10x faster for adds.
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19:56:22Araqthan seqs?
19:56:32disruptekno, silly.
19:56:38disrupteknormal linked lists.
19:56:54Araqok well
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19:56:57disruptekthey aren't /for/ you.
19:58:41Zevvdisruptek: faster then what
19:58:54disruptekdoubly linked lists.
19:59:02Zevvwell no wonder
19:59:38disruptekyes.
19:59:45Araqlol
20:00:08Zevvdid you make a translation rom an existing C lib, or did you implement from scratch?
20:00:29disruptekscratch, i couldn't find a design i liked.
20:00:33Zevvsweet
20:00:41disruptekwhy do you think so?
20:00:52ZevvI implemented one once and it was more work then I expected it to be
20:01:35disrupteki haven't audited it properly, but these might be sufficiently atomic for multithread use.
20:02:07disruptekthat's the goal, anyway.
20:02:40disrupteknow i have to impl a new version for clyybber.
20:02:55Araqgood night guys
20:03:41Zevvsleep well araq
20:03:54disruptekpeace
20:08:13disruptekor we could overhaul golden finally.
20:08:32Zevvis nimph3 done yet
20:08:39disrupteki'm waiting for concepts.
20:08:58Zevvis cps5 done yet
20:09:19disruptekcps, where do i know that acronym from?
20:09:24disruptekare you thinking of csp?
20:09:26disruptek!repo csp
20:09:27disbothttps://github.com/jackvandrunen/nim-csprng -- 9nim-csprng: 11A fast cryptographically secure pseudo-random number generator in pure Nim, using the Salsa20 cipher. 15 1⭐ 0🍴
20:10:06Zevvchronic pain syndroem
20:10:06disruptekclyybber's patch is not merged yet, i guess.
20:11:00ZevvCPS = Clyybbers Patch Service
20:11:08disruptekpretty much, yeah.
20:11:24disruptekimagine if we had a decent language to work with.
20:12:54Zevvand no religion too
20:13:23disruptekyou may say that i'm a dreamer.
20:25:30ZevvPMunch: here still?
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20:39:40PMunchZevv, just got back :)
20:42:11Zevvmissed you *sooo* much
20:42:22PMunchHaha, missed you too
20:42:40ZevvI did stuff. The code is less readable now, but still better
20:42:41Zevvsomewhat
20:42:45PMunchHmm
20:42:55ZevvI'm hacking in the 'ico' branch, if you are bored, see if that still works for you
20:43:09Zevvone of these days
20:43:22gmaggiorHi. Do you know an article that can point out differences between Python and Nim code cause of dynamic typing vs static typing?
20:43:40PMunchZevv, ooh OverflowHandling
20:43:58PMunchgmaggior, hmm not off the top of my head
20:44:18gmaggiorPMunch, ok
20:44:27PMunchI wrote this a while back: https://peterme.net/nim-types-originally-a-reddit-reply.html
20:44:44PMunchMight help somewhat
20:44:52PMunchBut nothing that directly compares it against Python
20:45:09ZevvPMunch: not there yet, but put it in the type
20:45:18Zevvit's mostly about less repetition in the code
20:45:22Zevvlot of template magic
20:45:55PMunchAah right
20:45:58PMunchI'll check it out
20:46:07Zevvgmaggior: it's not really different from any dynamic vs any static language, you can as well compare javascript and Rust
20:46:12Zevvit's two different beasts
20:46:31Zevvbiggest difference is that Nim has generics, which can take you a long way giving you the *feel* of a dynamic language
20:46:40Zevvwhile still having the benefits of compilation and type checking
20:47:26gmaggiorPMunch, thanks for the link
20:48:11gmaggiorZevv, yeah thanks. Your words clarified a lot my mind about
20:49:23gmaggiorZevv, I want to see the thing from the other side: duck typing
20:51:00Zevvthat's where generics come in
20:51:41Zevvproc something[T](a, b: T): T = a + b
20:53:29gmaggior<nod> thx
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21:34:26disruptekone touch is just too much.
21:35:09PMunchUgh, I have to design a level for my game jam game..
21:35:44Zevvbwah poor man
21:39:30Zevvshow us some of your stuff
21:40:25Zevvtomorrow, because now it's time for a nap
21:41:39PMunchIt will all be open source and available by tonight :)
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21:52:11disruptekZevv you are such a sweetheart.
21:56:15PrestigePMunch: oh sweet. I need to see more nim games
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22:42:27PMunchHmm, this is weird
22:42:38PMunchWhen I pick up the 16th item it bugs out..
22:42:45PMunchAnd wont register it as picked up
22:43:11PMunchNo wait, the 17th
22:43:51PMunchMy items are stored as an array of positions, and the way they are registered as "taken" is by including the index in the array in a set
22:44:09PMunchThe set is defined as 0..items.len
22:44:53disruptekit's /defined/ that way?
22:45:07PMunchYeah
22:45:22PMunch"var takenBearFood: set[0..bearFoods.count]"
22:45:40disruptekokay.
22:46:05PMunchWhere bearFood is a "type PositionData[count, width: static[int]] = distinct array[count, uint16]"
22:46:27PMunchI think sets might be broken on AVR..
22:51:40PMunchHmm, indeed
22:51:53PMunchIncluding 15 works fine, but including 16 doesn't work
22:53:03disruptekthat makes very little sense.
22:53:09PMunchLike "takenBearFood.incl 17; if takenBearFood.contains 17" that if is false
23:00:36disruptekprobably better not to take so much food from a bear.
23:01:04PMunchWell I'm trying to let him pick them up
23:01:11PMunchBut now I have to take food away from the bear
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23:15:37bungdotOperator template can't use await ?
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23:25:41voidpisomeone have a reading suggestion for learning nim? I'm ok in python OOP but memory allocation, and stack and heap usage are kind of alien to me
23:37:24bungwell, that's not first thing you need to know
23:37:44disruptek~memory
23:37:44disbotmemory: 11The Nim memory model: https://zevv.nl/nim-memory/
23:38:01bungyou know object and ref that's fine
23:40:15voidpiI was just reading about that here: https://peterme.net/nim-types-originally-a-reddit-reply.html
23:40:36kinkinkijkingles2 wants the entire shader converted to an ascii cstringarray which you then have to convert into an array of arrays of GlByte apparently
23:40:59kinkinkijkinevery single error i run into with this thing.
23:42:05voidpithanks disruptek and bung
23:59:26PMunchGame's out, enjoy: https://community.arduboy.com/t/manbarschwein-game-jam-5/9229