<< 11-04-2016 >>
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03:26:45InfinityBearSo
03:26:50InfinityBearNim compiles without needing a .dll
03:26:52InfinityBearcorrect?
03:27:13InfinityBearAnd they're not fuckhuge.
03:53:17chrishellerYes, you can build standalone binaries
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07:51:44veganskI have an issue with nimble: get http://irclogs.nim-lang.org/packages.json produces http error 502.
07:53:58veganskjester returns error: An error has occured in one of your routes.
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08:25:37veganskbtw, http://nim-lang.org/nimble/packages.json is old and can't be used as a mirror
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10:05:06dom96vegansk: there is some odd issue happening with nim's base64 module
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11:51:11endragorare typedesc specifiers expected to work with procs? Changing typedesc to typedesc[int] in the manual's example makes it not compile: https://gist.github.com/endragor/272220f49e8fae8e5307484283f23b9f
11:52:35ArrrrI suppose it doesn't know what 'T' in ref T is
11:53:28endragorthe same example works if you remove "[int]" in the argument
11:53:29yglukhovdom96, any progress with packages.json? it seems like nimble cannot work at all because of this.
11:54:07endragorArrrr: it's basically taken from here: http://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#special-types-typedesc
12:01:15nivdom96: also downloading the package list over http doesn't seem the best deal to get
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12:10:39couven92In nim.cfg can I specify environment variables in e.g. vcc.path?
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12:20:14ArrrrInteresting, maybe typedesc alone implicitly defines [T]
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12:49:35nivwhat does "illegal capture: <param>" mean in the context of a async proc?
12:50:13nivoh, guess i cant keep refs/openarrays
12:50:47couven92Ah, nvm, I just found the comment in the top of the config file :P
13:00:17yglukhovwhat is the type of nil? can i define an overload that accepts nil, if i have other overloads that accept strings or refs?
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13:03:38yglukhove.g. if i do: proc `%`*(n: type(nil)): JsonNode = newJNull() i'll get an error: invalid type: 'nil' in this context
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13:48:17yglukhovdom96, and anyone who knows how base64 works. please review: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/pull/4074
13:57:12couven92is there a possibility to define pre-compile actions in the nim.cfg? E.g. the Visual Studio compiler requires that vcvarsall.bat is invoked prior to compilation with cl.exe
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14:13:57yglukhovAraq, dom96, please say smth, this packages.json error is a blocker because build machines fail trying to checkout nimble packages for the first time.
14:14:15Araqyglukhov: I can accept it for now.
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14:14:43yglukhovok, but also the server needs to be rebuilt
14:15:08Araqwhich server?
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14:17:20yglukhovhttp://irclogs.nim-lang.org/packages.json
14:17:22yglukhovthis one
14:22:29yglukhovAraq, ping.
14:23:24Araqhu? what?
14:23:49Araqnimble doesn't use the packages.json from github?
14:24:04Araqbut depends on the Nim forum?
14:26:19federico3it tries http://irclogs.nim-lang.org/packages.json , fails and then tries http://nim-lang.org/nimble/packages.json
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14:26:52Araqwhy does it do that?
14:27:20Araqand what has irclogs to do with anything?
14:27:25federico3https://github.com/nim-lang/nimble/issues/210
14:29:34Araqfederico3: ah for the github one we need SSL ?
14:29:53Araqand so nimble tries our website first ...
14:30:14federico3github is HTTPS only
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14:48:19yglukhovI think there is some bug in nimble, because it tries to download index infinitely. Please try "nimble install -y nimongo" to reproduce it.
14:49:10federico3yglukhov: it's not finding nimongo anywhere. Try without -y
14:49:40yglukhov-y is the same except it will prompt infinitely
14:50:25yglukhovbut nimongo has been already working for us for a while, until the irclogs server went donw
14:52:29federico3yglukhov: the problem is with nimble and the server, not nimongo itself
14:52:38federico3dom96: why moving away from SSL?
14:53:19yglukhovfederico3, i know, thats what im saying ;)
14:54:53dom96sorry guys, didn't realise that this would have such far reaching consequences
14:56:11dom96federico3: Because a dependency on OpenSSL sucks
14:56:39federico3dom96: is there an alternative to implement HTTPS?
14:56:47dom96federico3: no
14:56:55federico3...
14:57:10Araqfederico3: sure there is, but it's lots of work.
14:57:33dom96yglukhov: thank you for the base64 patch
14:57:35Araqdom96: for now, let's re-enable SSL for nimble as default.
14:57:36federico3(e.g. fixing the issues around libsodium)
14:57:51dom96Araq: why?
14:57:54federico3dom96: what's the problem with depending on SSL?
14:58:24yglukhovdom96: can you restart the server please?
14:58:27Araqdom96: because Nimble should not depend on the server which also serves irclogs ... (omg!)
14:58:43dom96yglukhov: working on it
14:58:51yglukhovok
14:59:15dom96Araq: it doesn't. There is a fallback, it's just out of date.
14:59:51Araqwell it needs to ask github for the packages.json
15:00:06Araqnot some shitty outdated mirror which is far less reliable than github.
15:00:13dom96Take a look at the Github issues, https://github.com/nim-lang/nimble/search?q=openssl&type=Issues&utf8=%E2%9C%93
15:00:21dom96And the amount of people who had problems with the openssl dependency
15:00:43dom96You can easily configure Nimble to grab packages.json from Github if you wish
15:00:55Araqdom96: yes, but defaults matter.
15:01:36dom96Araq: Indeed. There is no reason we can't depend on our server to serve the latest packages.json file.
15:01:55Araqthere are lots and lots of reasons.
15:01:57dom96Making Nimble as easy to use for new users is much more important IMO.
15:02:17nivis there some kind of signing/auth going on? is there a reason why ssl isnt enforced?
15:02:41Araqdom96: lots of possibilities:
15:02:43federico3given that Nimble is not required to crawl thousands of URL, an option could be to fork out to a downloader tool
15:02:54federico3(where available)
15:03:01federico3niv: nothing :(
15:03:20Araq* make Nimble use curl or similiar
15:03:51dom96Araq: so your solution is to include a different dependency?
15:03:52Araq* patch the stdlib so that OpenSSL comes with C code, not depending on any DLL
15:04:43federico3dom96: better depending on a reliable tool that does SSL than having to deal with more bugs
15:05:02dom96This was a bug in the standard library.
15:05:11dom96It's (hopefully) been fixed.
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15:05:33dom96This has a benefit for us all.
15:05:42Araqdom96: yes, but Nimble downloads a packages.json via 'http', not 'https'
15:05:48dom96Araq: so?
15:05:53Araqhardly acceptable anymore.
15:06:22Araqin fact, many would consider it downright broken, amateurish and -insert swear-word here-
15:06:39federico3also, the sources of packages hosted on GH can be downloaded using HTTPS as well, as recommended by GH
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15:07:47Araqdom96: download via curl/wget should be available as a config fallback
15:08:05Araqfor the people having had issues with some SSL DLL
15:08:16GangstaCat(we could say the same for the Nim's forum, plain http for the transmission of the account password when auth visibly s:)
15:08:30dom96what GangstaCat said
15:08:35federico3GangstaCat: yep but Nimble is downloading software
15:08:35AraqGangstaCat: it has been argued for the full Nim website.
15:08:42Araqand I agree.
15:08:52federico3same problem for the release zip/tarball files
15:08:56Araqthe Nim website should use https everywhere.
15:09:07niveven something like letsencrypt (it being experimental/beta and all) would be better than not having https at all
15:09:09Araqfederico3: yup.
15:09:43federico3https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/3841 there's a bug for that one
15:09:46dom96So what are you worried about? That somebody will MITM your download of packages.json?
15:09:53federico3*yes*
15:09:59nivthat's the idea of it, yes
15:10:12dom96If you're so worried about that then compile Nimble with SSL support
15:11:05Araqthat doesn't solve it, Nimble will continue to download something from a HTTP site (ours)
15:11:30nivaraq is right in that in todays times, serving anything over http is considered legacy at best
15:12:28federico3enabling special security features manually requires time and effort, this stuff should be the default
15:14:02nivone could reasonably argue it should be the only option, not the default. :p but as i gather it there's some problems with having -d:ssl on everywhere?
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15:14:49dom96Fixed
15:15:23Araqdom96: and just to be clear, in the past I was against https for these 'non-critical' things, but I changed my mind.
15:17:46dom96Okay. How about we make openssl DLL loading on-demand then?
15:17:54dom96Surely that can be achieved
15:19:24yglukhovdom96, thanks for getting the server up
15:19:26Araqyes but that's horrible.
15:19:50dom96Araq: why?
15:20:03Araq"new users enters https address into formular" -> Nim program loads "SSL on demand and crashes"
15:20:17yglukhovAraq: what is the type of nil? can i define an overload that accepts nil, if i have other overloads that accept strings or refs?
15:20:24yglukhove.g. if i do: proc `%`*(n: type(nil)): JsonNode = newJNull() i'll get an error: invalid type: 'nil' in this context
15:20:34Araqwell yes, the compiler is correct.
15:20:50Araqwrite string(nil) to disambiguate
15:21:32dom96Araq: Could we make it an exception?
15:21:50dom96yglukhov: np, sorry about the wait.
15:22:52Araqdom96: hmmmm
15:23:25yglukhovAraq: thats a bit unfortunate. I'm trying to prettify json api a bit. Wanted to make %nil work.
15:23:57AraqI think https is becoming so common that soon enough any solution that loads "SSL on demand" is not worth implementing.
15:25:10dom96Araq: I disagree.
15:25:36yglukhovwhat do you think of NilType, that cannot be spelled except like type(nil) and can be used as an arg type?
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15:29:54federico3if the concern is around openssl (native or Nim's) bugs, an alternative would be to use a different library
15:31:04dom96federico3: that's not the concern. The concern is the additional external dependency.
15:31:18dom96Which acts as a barrier to entry for new users.
15:32:06ArrrrCan't you distribute the library with the installer of nim?
15:32:28federico3dom96: ...on windows?
15:32:47dom96yes
15:33:58reactormonkdom96, no native ssl implementation on windows?
15:34:10federico3I wonder what other languages do
15:34:25dom96but not even on Windows, it's a problem everywhere. One example issue: https://github.com/nim-lang/nimble/issues/142
15:34:32Araqthey ship libSSL.dll or something.
15:36:23Araqwhich we do too, fwiw
15:36:53dom96Also this... https://github.com/nim-lang/nimble/issues/83
15:37:21dom96and this... https://github.com/nim-lang/nimble/issues/99
15:37:33federico3yet this problem impacts the whole Nim ecosystem, not just Nimble: do we expect people to install Nim and don't have an easy way to talk to any HTTPS API or website ?
15:37:35dom96Seriously. It IS an issue.
15:38:56AraqIt WAS an issue. we renamed the DLLs so that 32 vs 64 bit distinction is made
15:39:12AraqSSL v2 can safely be removed from everywhere
15:39:22reactormonkisn't ssl v2 deprecated?
15:39:37Araqand other upcoming issues will be dealt with the curl/wget download option
15:40:06dom96Yeah, because if user's don't have openssl they surely will have curl or wget
15:40:20Araqgetting rid of -d:ssl was an understandable over-reaction and I would have done the same.
15:40:37Araqbut now we have sorted out most issues with it.
15:40:44Araqand we need to bring it back.
15:41:25federico3curl was meant to work around the *bugs*, of course the dependency problem remains
15:41:50Araqand don't be against it because it means some work for you. Yuriy or myself can patch Nimble as soon as you agree.
15:43:13Araqfederico3: curl/wget is only a last resort anyway and installing a program as a dependency tends to work better than installing a library (better error messages, 32 vs 64 bit is no issue, etc)
15:43:14dom96so where are these 64bit windows openssl DLLs?
15:43:23dom96IIRC there were none available
15:43:35Araqaren't they in my dlls.zip package?
15:43:40yglukhovAraq: so... do you think nil_t is a good itea?
15:44:22Araqyglukhov: no, I hate these meta-types everywhere. introduce json.null for constructions
15:44:35Araqor something similar.
15:44:54dom96Don't know where this dlls.zip package is.
15:45:21Araqhttp://nim-lang.org/downloads/dlls.zip
15:45:22yglukhovbut that is just not nifty as it could be :P
15:45:36dom96404
15:45:48Araqhttp://nim-lang.org/download/dlls.zip
15:46:19Araqbbs
15:51:55dom96I got a better idea
15:52:00dom96Let's use git to download packages.json
15:52:21dom96It's already a dependency so it's perfect.
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15:53:18nivdom96: if you have a recent git install, git-archive can fetch a single file without cloning the repo
15:53:35dom96Just read this: http://stackoverflow.com/a/18331440/492186 :)
15:53:47nivheh, okay
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15:54:02dom96And in Nimble's readme we have "If the version is less recent than 1.9.0 then Nimble may have trouble using it."
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15:54:18dom96(that is talking about the Git version)
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15:54:38federico3does git on windows comes with HTTPS support and/or GPG?
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15:55:01dom96it must do
15:55:09reactormonkfederico3, probably https at least. git doesn't have transport layer security, right?
15:55:19dom96since you can clone a https:// url
15:55:40federico3reactormonk: not natively - but maybe the windows version could support only the git protocol
15:56:55dom96Can anybody foresee any cons?
15:57:06federico3dom96: how is git being installed?
15:57:26dom96federico3: by the user. Nimble already requires git to function.
15:58:22federico3then ideally they could use that even to fetch the installer straight from GH (instead of the HTTP website)
16:04:17dom96Ideally, yes. But most users don't care enough to do that in practice.
16:04:32dom96But we do need to set up SSL on the website anyway.
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16:04:55dom96So, who's up for creating a PR to implement this in Nimble? Araq? :P
16:06:45dom96Meh, I might just do it. Seems simple enough.
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16:29:31Araqdom96: yeah, great idea. so the external download tool is git. pretty obvious in hindsight.
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16:32:19nivas to setting up ssl on the website, i can recommend caddy. it does automagic letsencrypt handling and is generally a joy to work with
16:33:01dom96Ahh, so you thought that Nimble also downloaded packages over http.
16:34:00dom96I still think that pulling off a MITM attack would be too difficult to do practically.
16:34:06Araqdom96: no, I thought it downloads packages.json via http from github
16:34:20Araqnot from our server.
16:34:39Araqdidn't really think about it being impossible :P
16:35:14nivdom96: if you want practical reasons, you have to keep in mind the current situation too, where in some countries ISPs do traffic inspection/rewriting as they please. its not just about the nerd with ettercap sitting in a starbucks
16:35:15federico3doing local MITM is possible on many networks
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16:36:45federico3should packages.json be updated to use HTTPS for pulling GitHub repos?
16:36:48nivideally you'd sign the json too, so things like dns redirect attacks and compromised CAs dont work
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16:37:03federico3+1 niv
16:37:12dom96yes, and sign the packages too
16:37:34nivsigning the packages would also mean signing versioned releases, and that's up to the developer of each package
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16:37:45federico3but the GPG libs might no be available in the Git for windows package
16:37:50ephjasign the signs
16:37:51dom96But the rewards from these things need to outweigh the effort needed to implement/maintain them
16:38:21nivi dont like gpg much. its unwieldly and the api is horrible. i've had some very good experience with https://github.com/jedisct1/minisign, which is basically a reimpl of openbsds signify
16:38:29Araqdom96: no need for signing, we can store the git commit hashes
16:38:31federico3See https://github.com/nim-lang/packages/pull/340/files
16:38:31dom96That's all that matters here. I simply disagree that this is the case for SSL everwhere.
16:38:34dom96*everywhere
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16:39:35nivsigning the json will also prevent another attack that open source projects have been hit with in the past: compromised source/listing servers
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16:41:48dom96A bigger problem is somebody sticking something malicious in their Nimble package
16:42:05dom96But I have no ideas how that can be prevented
16:42:06nivyes, but thats not something you can deal with
16:42:13nivunless you introduce a vetting process
16:42:42nivi think the current process of requiring github is okay. everyone can check the sources before doing the install thing
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16:48:22federico3a vetting process would do. Users could install non-vetted packages after being presented a warning, but it's probably very early for this
16:48:37federico3niv: packages can be in other places other than GH
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16:49:15nivfederico3: they can? i thought they're gh only at the moment, judging from the install process
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16:53:08federico3niv: https://github.com/nim-lang/packages/blob/master/packages.json
16:54:05federico3some are on bitbucket for example
16:54:08nivfair enough
16:54:18federico3and they use https :D
16:54:19nivright now though even a vetting process doesnt help
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16:54:58nivbadactor could just publish a benign v1, then after being merged, v2 comes that silently uploads your collection of cat pictures
16:55:49nivand i dont think a vetting process for packages works at all. see the ruby/gem ecosystem, or npm .. with hundreds of thousands of packages. who is supposed to do that?
16:58:03federico3niv: some distributions do that (some since 20+ years)
16:58:40nivi guess you could automate it in large parts by scanning for dangerous stuff. but it sounds like a lot of work with many traps
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17:25:42ephjaniv: yeah, unless you implement some kind of safe environment
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17:41:24CcxCZYou can't really prevent package maintainers from "accidentally" slipping in security holes, without doing full audit on each release. But that's between the PM and it's user. OTOH unverified index allows any middleman to just slip in and is really embarrassing thing to have.
17:42:56CcxCZNow, if one does not want to wrestle the whole SSL/TLS monster (which is understandable), there are quite a few ways to provide verification without that. As a bonus points, it's easy to mirror.
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17:46:54CcxCZhttp://nacl.cr.yp.to/auth.html or https://github.com/recsrv/signify would be some options if one doesn't want the whole PGP stack either
17:48:07federico3CcxCZ: NaCl/libsodium is not wrapped for Nim
17:50:58CcxCZhmm and I actually wanted to link /sign.html for NaCl, either way, the API is as trivial as it gets (which is the point of NaCl)
18:01:46cheatfatehttps://github.com/recsrv/signify - 404
18:05:57CcxCZI typoed, sorry. Anyway, there seems to be a few of implementations/ports out there just on github: https://github.com/search?q=signify
18:07:47nivi linked minisign earlier, which is a port of signify too
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19:09:38fredrik92hmm... while executing `nimle install nimongo`: Evaluating as NimScript file failed with:
19:09:39fredrik92 Cannot find nimscriptapi.nim.
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19:30:58fredrik92ah... appearently I need to setup NimScript... How do I do that?
19:32:05Araqfredrik92: use 'nim e install_nimble.nims' to install nimble
19:32:19Araqdunno if the other "official" installation works.
19:32:37fredrik92Araq, ok, will do
19:34:48fredrik92Araq, worked like a charm!!!! THX! :D
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20:12:14nivis newString(32) a c-buffer with 32 and null, or just a char* of 32?
20:20:13Araqa string of length 32
20:20:54nivwhat if i pass it to a c library?
20:21:56nivas a buffer that is filled by the c code
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21:05:28Araqniv: then you better use newStringOfCap
21:05:42Araqand call setlen() afterwards to tell Nim how long it really is
21:07:08nivi've gone for a fixed length byte array, since my buffers are always the same length
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