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09:07:08 | Zevv | Good morning #nim! |
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09:20:59 | PMunch | Good morning Zevv |
09:38:05 | Zevv | @Araq: to bother you once more - I've made good progress on my peg stuff. If you file like taking a peek, I'd love to hear your opinon. You were right about the PEG DSL, this feels much nicer now. The PEG gets properly compile, has a very decent performance, supports all PEG constructs and can do captures as well. I've chosen to reuse the JSON stuff to store the captures instead of reinventing the wheel. This |
09:38:11 | Zevv | also takes care of my other wish to be able to parse into objects, this can now be done through the capured JSON tree. |
09:38:28 | Zevv | https://github.com/zevv/npeg, check the last section of the readme for a complete example. |
09:42:12 | narimiran | Zevv: i don't know much about that stuff, but the examples look quite nice |
09:43:29 | Zevv | I used to use PEGs all the time in Lua, I do prefer them over regexps for clarity and power. |
09:43:42 | Araq | Zevv: it's getting beautiful |
09:43:50 | Zevv | thanks :) |
09:44:11 | Araq | binary * for concat is an interesting choice |
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09:44:44 | Araq | never considered it, works surprisingly well |
09:44:52 | Zevv | Has the right precedence as well |
09:45:23 | Araq | yes |
09:45:25 | Zevv | I wish I had more things Nim would parse as identifier though. I'm out of symbols but would like to add some sugar |
09:45:47 | Zevv | [] is my 'any', but should be the empty set |
09:45:59 | Araq | use _ |
09:46:09 | Zevv | Used that, but doesn't work for me visually |
09:46:28 | Araq | sets should use {} anyway |
09:46:50 | Zevv | I changed that around a few times, still not sure. I'm going back and forth between PEG and Nim syntax |
09:47:00 | Zevv | I used 'x'-'y' for ranges, then 'x'..'y', then 'x'-'y' again |
09:47:02 | Zevv | Now I support both :) |
09:47:21 | Araq | well you use Nim's parser so adhere to Nim's conventions |
09:47:26 | Zevv | same for sets. I switched back to [] because the curlies are used for ranges {} |
09:48:01 | Zevv | and I like ['a'..'z']{0..3} better then {'a'..z'}{0..3} - a better distinction |
09:48:19 | Araq | I've argued to put the grammar inside """ """ |
09:48:34 | Araq | so that you can use PEG's syntax without caring about Nim's syntax |
09:48:47 | Araq | but then you need to write a parser for your parser generator :P |
09:49:05 | Zevv | True - but I like Nim to take care of the PEG parsing for me. |
09:49:09 | Araq | still very easy to do though. You can also support *both* |
09:49:16 | Araq | """Peg syntax""" |
09:49:25 | Zevv | sure, and I can still support my old way with constructing pegs dynamically |
09:49:35 | Araq | {'a'..'z'} # Nim syntax. |
09:49:38 | Zevv | the underlying model has not changed: it is still converted to a list of instructions, but the VM is out now |
09:50:08 | Araq | interesting so you do have a custom IR |
09:50:18 | Araq | makes sense. |
09:50:49 | Araq | {'a'..z'}{0..3} doesn't come up often but you can also use {'a'..z'}[0..3] |
09:50:58 | Araq | which would be Nim'ish |
09:51:33 | Zevv | Yeah. I can't choose, and technically I can just support all permutations. Use curlies or brackets, dots or hyphens, I can simply allow all |
09:52:08 | Araq | more importantly is that you can attach *actions* to rules |
09:52:20 | Zevv | Cp() is a proc-capture |
09:52:20 | Araq | "capturing" is the weaker idea and doesn't scale |
09:52:42 | Zevv | Cp(foo, "abc") calls foo("abc") at match time |
09:53:03 | Zevv | or "abc" % foo, but I need to get used to that syntax :) |
09:53:15 | Zevv | "->" does not parse well, precedence wise |
09:53:23 | Araq | can you use this mechanism to construct an AST? |
09:53:46 | Araq | and without a JSON intermediate step :P |
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09:54:36 | Zevv | I guess that should work just fine. |
09:54:41 | Araq | but please use {'a'..z'}[0..3], makes most sense, you are in Nim land, play by its idioms |
09:55:27 | Zevv | Well, I'm stuck in customs between Nimland and Pegland. The rules are not very clear here :) |
09:55:58 | Araq | I would also use the tilde over '-' |
09:56:02 | Zevv | But since I can not choose myself, I'll adopt to your opinion here. |
09:56:14 | Zevv | oh where is '-' still mentioned? I changed that to '!' |
09:56:23 | Araq | for Pegland use """ ... """. |
09:56:39 | Araq | otherwise you're clearly in Nimland with its precedence rules. |
09:56:44 | Zevv | do you mean prefix - or infix -? |
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09:56:59 | Araq | prefix. infix - should be .. |
09:57:14 | Zevv | Now this is the subtraction infix |
09:57:37 | Araq | oh ok, I meant - for ranges should be .. |
09:57:40 | Zevv | P1 - P2, which is basically !P2 * P1 |
09:58:20 | Araq | you also need a buffer abstraction |
09:58:55 | Zevv | Yeah, that's on the list. Ideally it should be able to operate on streams as well, but that requires some bookkeeping for backtracking |
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09:59:21 | Araq | base it on lexbase.nim |
09:59:31 | Zevv | will look into that, thanks |
09:59:51 | Araq | it only allows backtracking within the same text line but that's usually all you need. |
10:00:39 | Araq | but no, base on the 'nxt', 'atom' templates that strscans uses |
10:01:36 | Araq | meh, ideally you want to use PEGs for the lexer and then PEGs on the token stream |
10:01:43 | Zevv | hehe |
10:02:05 | Araq | and so constructs like {'A'..'Z'} are a bit misguided |
10:02:30 | Zevv | so I use ['A'-'Z'] :) |
10:02:44 | Araq | ha ha, funny |
10:03:11 | Zevv | Not being able to choose I kept changing the syntax all the time, so I just stopped caring |
10:03:32 | Araq | I'm talking about that tokens don't span ranges and not single letters |
10:03:41 | Araq | *and are not |
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10:04:09 | Zevv | I'm not following, sorry, elaborate? |
10:04:55 | Araq | ifExpr = ifKeyword <expr> colon <expr> elseKeyword <expr> |
10:05:14 | Araq | parser rules don't operate on characters, lexer rules do. |
10:05:53 | Araq | and PEGs can handle both but pretend you only want to write lexers. |
10:06:36 | Zevv | Hmm, that is a different problem. I'm concentrationg on PEGs for now. But it would be easy to provide another interface to define your lexer and have it generate a PEG to do that |
10:07:18 | Araq | PEGs cover recursive proc calls, repetition and optionals, that's all it takes for LL(1) parsing |
10:07:50 | Zevv | Yes, but I still do not understand what problem you are describing, sorry |
10:08:13 | Araq | with the right design you can write the PEGs and generate a lexer and then you can write PEGs to generate the parser that works on top of the lexer |
10:09:03 | Zevv | aaah, yes. I tried that but I ran into a practical Nim problem and did not give it much though after that |
10:09:17 | Zevv | I'm not able to compile my peg into a proc I can call at compile time |
10:16:32 | Araq | that's not required all it takes is 'nxt' and 'atom' templates that you assume exist |
10:16:42 | Araq | works for scanp. |
10:17:11 | Araq | scanp is ugly but it got parts of puzzle right. |
10:18:07 | Zevv | ok, I'll have to figure out how that works then |
10:18:55 | Zevv | For now I'll concentrate on the captures and 'actions' for now, and try to finialize the syntax. |
10:19:21 | Zevv | So you choose then: prefix not '!', '-' or '~' |
10:19:58 | Araq | '~' |
10:20:09 | Zevv | and why? I never considered that |
10:20:28 | Zevv | it's neither Nim nor peg, right? |
10:20:59 | Araq | I thought it's what Pegs use, probably I misremember |
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10:31:18 | PMunch | Zevv, npeg looks very interesting |
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10:31:37 | PMunch | Does it run on compile-time? |
10:32:42 | Zevv | well, not 'run', I have a problem there. |
10:32:52 | Zevv | The PEG is compiled to a Nim proc at compile time. |
10:33:01 | Zevv | But I can't use this generated proc at compile time :) |
10:33:22 | Zevv | not sure how deep into the matrix Nim go, compiletime-wise |
10:34:26 | PMunch | Hmm |
10:34:29 | PMunch | That's a shame |
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10:34:49 | Zevv | It might be some obvious technicality i'm missing, I just didn't look into it much further yet |
10:34:51 | PMunch | There are very few good parsers than run on compile-time, which is why I wrote combparser |
10:35:00 | PMunch | Which, to be fair, isn't a very good parser :P |
10:35:12 | PMunch | Zevv, some data structured behaves differently on compile-time |
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10:36:51 | Zevv | I'll put it on my todo, it would be very nice to be able to parse compile time. Also just as araq mused a few minutes ago: it would be nice to have the PEG syntax parsed by itself |
10:36:59 | PMunch | Oh wait, some of that might've been fixed: github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/9418 |
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10:43:03 | endragor | https://paste.ofcode.org/35DbNTGqwLnpurAGQU4AYDF how is this supposed to work? I know how it works at the moment (obj.s is not shallow), but it seems to contradict expectations even in the stdlib. So what is `shallow` expected to do? The documentation is shallow. |
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11:09:56 | Zevv | PMunch, Araq: Here is the problem that prevents me from using generated pegs at compile time: http://paste.debian.net/plain/1073229 |
11:10:06 | Zevv | main.nim(22, 14) Error: invalid indentation |
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11:39:30 | shashlick | I have an importcpp in a file, overall project is compiled with Nim c. Why is the file not compiled with the cpp code gen? |
11:40:29 | shashlick | .compile. works fine for cpp files in this mixed mode |
11:40:53 | shashlick | Why not Nim files? |
11:49:29 | PMunch | Zevv, huh are indentation rules different on compile-time? |
11:50:20 | Zevv | funny, eh |
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11:59:28 | Araq | endragor: it marks the string as 'shallow' so that when you copy it around, only pointers are copied |
11:59:54 | Araq | so # Is obj.s shallow? the answer to this question should be 'yes' |
12:00:08 | endragor | Araq: see https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/10845 |
12:01:28 | Araq | huh, interesting. |
12:02:41 | Araq | the upcoming solution for this is: obj.s = move(str), but I don't know whether it already works nor whether it's applicable for your case |
12:04:33 | endragor | I'm stuck with old Nim anyway, just filed this since I checked it on the devel. Thought if the fix is simple, I could cherry-pick it. |
12:12:51 | Araq | endragor: I think I have a fix |
12:19:26 | Araq | endragor: https://gist.github.com/Araq/4249e3719eb6e0ff293ed5180646378a if it's urgent use this for lib/system/sysstr.nim |
12:20:17 | endragor | Araq: I found workaround for my case, but thank you for the quick fix |
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13:14:34 | shashlick | Araq any thoughts on my question above on importcpp and nim c? Thanks in advance. |
13:18:28 | shashlick | The manual states this: the compiler needs to be told to generate C++ (command cpp) for this to work. |
13:19:02 | shashlick | But any reason why this cannot be deciphered from the pragma? |
13:19:36 | shashlick | Like the compile pragma knows to use g++ for cpp files |
13:20:30 | leorize | because it's not implemented? :P |
13:20:44 | PMunch | Hmm, somethings wrong here http://ix.io/1DAs/Nim |
13:22:18 | shashlick | Also, there isn't a pragma available to instruct Nim to use cpp for a specific Nim file so the only option is to bump the entire project to cpp |
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13:23:00 | shashlick | And I tried that but ran into various other crashes in code that worked just fine in c mode |
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13:29:00 | Araq | shashlick: we did implement this for the same reasons you outlined |
13:29:39 | Araq | but it's tricky and full of edge cases so the new strategy is to simply test C++ mode much better |
13:35:35 | shashlick | When you say "we did implement this", what do you mean? What was implemented? |
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13:56:53 | Araq | that .importcpp in a nim file triggers "compile to C++" for this file even when 'nim c' was used |
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14:17:59 | shashlick | Well it doesn't work |
14:18:39 | shashlick | I'll try a minimal test and get back |
14:18:42 | Araq | it's not tested, so not surprising |
14:19:06 | Araq | we should remove it again and make people write 'nim cpp' |
14:19:19 | shashlick | If I remember correctly, the link needs to happen with g++ or you get unresolved symbols |
14:19:19 | Araq | and if 'nim cpp' breaks, then that's a bug we will fix. |
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14:19:42 | Araq | in the compiler code it's called "mixed mode" |
14:19:59 | Araq | I don't want to support this mode, we already have enough feature interactions |
14:20:10 | Araq | so we need to remove it. |
14:21:22 | shashlick | Ok let me come back with some real info |
14:21:57 | shashlick | I think the change needed is to use g++ for link if a Nim file has importcpp in it |
14:23:33 | shashlick | You will still need to support it since there will always be projects wrapping C and C++ libs |
14:24:29 | Araq | well {.compile: "foo.c".} still calls the C compiler |
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16:42:33 | narimiran | we're at 14,999 commits. who will be the lucky one? :) |
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16:52:33 | Araq | me |
17:03:11 | clyybber | \o/ |
17:07:58 | FromGitter | <alehander42> yeah irc |
17:08:05 | FromGitter | <alehander42> no prob @bdhb |
17:23:57 | Zevv | Ah, integer literals for matching Any. 0 matches always, 1 is the any, and 8 matches exactly 8 characters. How sweet |
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18:21:32 | FromGitter | <liquid600pgm> dear God, rod's FFI is so crap at this point it induces pain when you look at it |
18:22:18 | FromGitter | <liquid600pgm> in the end I hope to have a *much* more simple solution, probably something along the lines of sol2 |
18:22:46 | FromGitter | <liquid600pgm> but I'll implement rod's std in the low-level FFI for better performance |
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18:28:08 | Zevv | FFI to C or to Nim? |
18:33:13 | FromGitter | <Varriount> Zevv: Assembly >:D |
18:35:07 | FromGitter | <liquid600pgm> Zevv: the FFI from Nim to rod |
18:38:18 | Zevv | ah, the other way around :) |
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18:50:32 | clyybber | liquid600pgm: So you can technically do rod -> nim -> C? |
18:51:42 | sealmove | what does rod stands for? |
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18:55:59 | sealmove | by rod you mean nimrod (old nim?) |
18:57:36 | clyybber | sealmove: He made his own language implemented in nim called rod |
18:57:48 | sealmove | who? |
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18:58:36 | sealmove | hum? I'd swear I saw "rod" in a comment in nim codebase. Does it stand for something else too? |
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19:13:08 | clyybber | sealmove: Yeah it still appears in some files of the nim compiler, but its referring to nim. |
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19:19:50 | vivus | what chat-bridge software is being used between here and gitter.im? |
19:21:16 | clyybber | I think its matrix? |
19:21:20 | clyybber | Not sure tho |
19:21:41 | narimiran | vivus: i think it is some bot written in nim, but not sure |
19:21:45 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Matrix is a whole different chat service. |
19:21:53 | clyybber | Oh, nevermind then |
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19:22:13 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> They have a bridge to connect IRC with Matrix, but I don't believe they have a bot to connect Gitter. |
19:22:47 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> My assumption would be matterbridge or something custom. |
19:26:52 | shashlick | vivus: @oprypin runs the FromGitter matterbridge instance for many channels |
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19:56:47 | FromGitter | <liquid600pgm> sealmove: the name was *sort of* derived from Nim's old name |
19:57:47 | FromGitter | <liquid600pgm> but at the same time I thought `r` was a good first letter because a) I wanted a Rust-inspired syntax b) my other project also starts with an `r` |
19:58:51 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Talking about Rod? |
19:58:53 | FromGitter | <kayabaNerve> Respect |
20:01:45 | clyybber | c ya bbl |
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20:26:50 | FromDiscord | <moerm> Araq - Good to see you. **Compliments** to you and the Nim team! |
20:27:30 | FromDiscord | <moerm> I've just finished porting a hasing algorith (something like xxHash) and Nim is within 0.5% of C speed! |
20:28:38 | FromDiscord | <moerm> I'm extremely excited and pleased because speed is often an issue in my field and I'm very happy to see how performant Nim has become |
20:31:54 | FromDiscord | <moerm> (Yes, I know, stupid me. When I entered I saw Araq. Must be something with discord that absent persons seem to be present. Maybe Araq sees it later. He really deserves that compliment) |
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20:45:24 | FromGitter | <liquid600pgm> what kind of binding API would you like to see for rod? I was imagining something like this: ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c8c0ee4fa5b721a1f95f7c8] |
20:47:05 | narimiran | moerm: write a blog post about it ;) |
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21:00:52 | shashlick | A-raq is on irc so will see your message |
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21:08:58 | FromDiscord | <moerm> narimiran I mentioned it in the forum |
21:09:11 | oprypin | shashlick, it's not matterbridge :o, it's https://github.com/oprypin/critter |
21:09:21 | oprypin | (and yes, it was down today, sorry about that) |
21:09:26 | FromDiscord | <moerm> shashlick Nice. He and the team deserve the compliment. |
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21:10:05 | narimiran | moerm: yeah, i've seen it. but we would like to hear more, i'm sure it would be an interesting read |
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21:19:26 | FromDiscord | <moerm> mariman I don't know what you mean ... what would you like to know more? (Plus: It'd probably be useless for people new to Nim) |
21:19:33 | shashlick | @oprypin: good to know, thanks! |
21:20:40 | narimiran | we generally need more "high performance nim" kind of stuff, and based on your forum post, what you did sounds like a good candidate |
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21:23:54 | FromDiscord | <moerm> Hmmm ... I'm not sure it would be wise to use my example because I used quite some tricks (e.g. emits) and rearranged parts of the algorithm to better fit Nim |
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21:51:15 | FromDiscord | <citycide> repl.it (online repl / code playground for baby languages) has added Nim 😀 |
21:51:20 | FromDiscord | <citycide> https://repl.it/talk/announcements/Two-new-languages-Nim-and-Crystal/11886 |
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21:52:01 | FromDiscord | <citycide> heh not "baby languages"... I meant "many languages" |
21:52:56 | FromDiscord | <citycide> looks like it's running 0.17.2 though |
22:11:20 | solitudesf | yikes |
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22:19:54 | FromDiscord | <moerm> Bye, see you soon |
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