<<15-03-2019>>

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09:07:08ZevvGood morning #nim!
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09:20:59PMunchGood morning Zevv
09:38:05Zevv@Araq: to bother you once more - I've made good progress on my peg stuff. If you file like taking a peek, I'd love to hear your opinon. You were right about the PEG DSL, this feels much nicer now. The PEG gets properly compile, has a very decent performance, supports all PEG constructs and can do captures as well. I've chosen to reuse the JSON stuff to store the captures instead of reinventing the wheel. This
09:38:11Zevvalso takes care of my other wish to be able to parse into objects, this can now be done through the capured JSON tree.
09:38:28Zevvhttps://github.com/zevv/npeg, check the last section of the readme for a complete example.
09:42:12narimiranZevv: i don't know much about that stuff, but the examples look quite nice
09:43:29ZevvI used to use PEGs all the time in Lua, I do prefer them over regexps for clarity and power.
09:43:42AraqZevv: it's getting beautiful
09:43:50Zevvthanks :)
09:44:11Araqbinary * for concat is an interesting choice
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09:44:44Araqnever considered it, works surprisingly well
09:44:52ZevvHas the right precedence as well
09:45:23Araqyes
09:45:25ZevvI wish I had more things Nim would parse as identifier though. I'm out of symbols but would like to add some sugar
09:45:47Zevv[] is my 'any', but should be the empty set
09:45:59Araquse _
09:46:09ZevvUsed that, but doesn't work for me visually
09:46:28Araqsets should use {} anyway
09:46:50ZevvI changed that around a few times, still not sure. I'm going back and forth between PEG and Nim syntax
09:47:00ZevvI used 'x'-'y' for ranges, then 'x'..'y', then 'x'-'y' again
09:47:02ZevvNow I support both :)
09:47:21Araqwell you use Nim's parser so adhere to Nim's conventions
09:47:26Zevvsame for sets. I switched back to [] because the curlies are used for ranges {}
09:48:01Zevvand I like ['a'..'z']{0..3} better then {'a'..z'}{0..3} - a better distinction
09:48:19AraqI've argued to put the grammar inside """ """
09:48:34Araqso that you can use PEG's syntax without caring about Nim's syntax
09:48:47Araqbut then you need to write a parser for your parser generator :P
09:49:05ZevvTrue - but I like Nim to take care of the PEG parsing for me.
09:49:09Araqstill very easy to do though. You can also support *both*
09:49:16Araq"""Peg syntax"""
09:49:25Zevvsure, and I can still support my old way with constructing pegs dynamically
09:49:35Araq{'a'..'z'} # Nim syntax.
09:49:38Zevvthe underlying model has not changed: it is still converted to a list of instructions, but the VM is out now
09:50:08Araqinteresting so you do have a custom IR
09:50:18Araqmakes sense.
09:50:49Araq {'a'..z'}{0..3} doesn't come up often but you can also use {'a'..z'}[0..3]
09:50:58Araqwhich would be Nim'ish
09:51:33ZevvYeah. I can't choose, and technically I can just support all permutations. Use curlies or brackets, dots or hyphens, I can simply allow all
09:52:08Araqmore importantly is that you can attach *actions* to rules
09:52:20ZevvCp() is a proc-capture
09:52:20Araq"capturing" is the weaker idea and doesn't scale
09:52:42ZevvCp(foo, "abc") calls foo("abc") at match time
09:53:03Zevvor "abc" % foo, but I need to get used to that syntax :)
09:53:15Zevv"->" does not parse well, precedence wise
09:53:23Araqcan you use this mechanism to construct an AST?
09:53:46Araqand without a JSON intermediate step :P
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09:54:36ZevvI guess that should work just fine.
09:54:41Araqbut please use {'a'..z'}[0..3], makes most sense, you are in Nim land, play by its idioms
09:55:27ZevvWell, I'm stuck in customs between Nimland and Pegland. The rules are not very clear here :)
09:55:58AraqI would also use the tilde over '-'
09:56:02ZevvBut since I can not choose myself, I'll adopt to your opinion here.
09:56:14Zevvoh where is '-' still mentioned? I changed that to '!'
09:56:23Araqfor Pegland use """ ... """.
09:56:39Araqotherwise you're clearly in Nimland with its precedence rules.
09:56:44Zevvdo you mean prefix - or infix -?
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09:56:59Araqprefix. infix - should be ..
09:57:14ZevvNow this is the subtraction infix
09:57:37Araqoh ok, I meant - for ranges should be ..
09:57:40ZevvP1 - P2, which is basically !P2 * P1
09:58:20Araqyou also need a buffer abstraction
09:58:55ZevvYeah, that's on the list. Ideally it should be able to operate on streams as well, but that requires some bookkeeping for backtracking
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09:59:21Araqbase it on lexbase.nim
09:59:31Zevvwill look into that, thanks
09:59:51Araqit only allows backtracking within the same text line but that's usually all you need.
10:00:39Araqbut no, base on the 'nxt', 'atom' templates that strscans uses
10:01:36Araqmeh, ideally you want to use PEGs for the lexer and then PEGs on the token stream
10:01:43Zevvhehe
10:02:05Araqand so constructs like {'A'..'Z'} are a bit misguided
10:02:30Zevvso I use ['A'-'Z'] :)
10:02:44Araqha ha, funny
10:03:11ZevvNot being able to choose I kept changing the syntax all the time, so I just stopped caring
10:03:32AraqI'm talking about that tokens don't span ranges and not single letters
10:03:41Araq*and are not
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10:04:09ZevvI'm not following, sorry, elaborate?
10:04:55AraqifExpr = ifKeyword <expr> colon <expr> elseKeyword <expr>
10:05:14Araqparser rules don't operate on characters, lexer rules do.
10:05:53Araqand PEGs can handle both but pretend you only want to write lexers.
10:06:36ZevvHmm, that is a different problem. I'm concentrationg on PEGs for now. But it would be easy to provide another interface to define your lexer and have it generate a PEG to do that
10:07:18AraqPEGs cover recursive proc calls, repetition and optionals, that's all it takes for LL(1) parsing
10:07:50ZevvYes, but I still do not understand what problem you are describing, sorry
10:08:13Araqwith the right design you can write the PEGs and generate a lexer and then you can write PEGs to generate the parser that works on top of the lexer
10:09:03Zevvaaah, yes. I tried that but I ran into a practical Nim problem and did not give it much though after that
10:09:17ZevvI'm not able to compile my peg into a proc I can call at compile time
10:16:32Araqthat's not required all it takes is 'nxt' and 'atom' templates that you assume exist
10:16:42Araqworks for scanp.
10:17:11Araqscanp is ugly but it got parts of puzzle right.
10:18:07Zevvok, I'll have to figure out how that works then
10:18:55ZevvFor now I'll concentrate on the captures and 'actions' for now, and try to finialize the syntax.
10:19:21ZevvSo you choose then: prefix not '!', '-' or '~'
10:19:58Araq'~'
10:20:09Zevvand why? I never considered that
10:20:28Zevvit's neither Nim nor peg, right?
10:20:59AraqI thought it's what Pegs use, probably I misremember
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10:31:18PMunchZevv, npeg looks very interesting
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10:31:37PMunchDoes it run on compile-time?
10:32:42Zevvwell, not 'run', I have a problem there.
10:32:52ZevvThe PEG is compiled to a Nim proc at compile time.
10:33:01ZevvBut I can't use this generated proc at compile time :)
10:33:22Zevvnot sure how deep into the matrix Nim go, compiletime-wise
10:34:26PMunchHmm
10:34:29PMunchThat's a shame
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10:34:49ZevvIt might be some obvious technicality i'm missing, I just didn't look into it much further yet
10:34:51PMunchThere are very few good parsers than run on compile-time, which is why I wrote combparser
10:35:00PMunchWhich, to be fair, isn't a very good parser :P
10:35:12PMunchZevv, some data structured behaves differently on compile-time
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10:36:51ZevvI'll put it on my todo, it would be very nice to be able to parse compile time. Also just as araq mused a few minutes ago: it would be nice to have the PEG syntax parsed by itself
10:36:59PMunchOh wait, some of that might've been fixed: github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/9418
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10:43:03endragorhttps://paste.ofcode.org/35DbNTGqwLnpurAGQU4AYDF how is this supposed to work? I know how it works at the moment (obj.s is not shallow), but it seems to contradict expectations even in the stdlib. So what is `shallow` expected to do? The documentation is shallow.
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11:09:56ZevvPMunch, Araq: Here is the problem that prevents me from using generated pegs at compile time: http://paste.debian.net/plain/1073229
11:10:06Zevvmain.nim(22, 14) Error: invalid indentation
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11:39:30shashlickI have an importcpp in a file, overall project is compiled with Nim c. Why is the file not compiled with the cpp code gen?
11:40:29shashlick.compile. works fine for cpp files in this mixed mode
11:40:53shashlickWhy not Nim files?
11:49:29PMunchZevv, huh are indentation rules different on compile-time?
11:50:20Zevvfunny, eh
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11:59:28Araqendragor: it marks the string as 'shallow' so that when you copy it around, only pointers are copied
11:59:54Araqso # Is obj.s shallow? the answer to this question should be 'yes'
12:00:08endragorAraq: see https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/10845
12:01:28Araqhuh, interesting.
12:02:41Araqthe upcoming solution for this is: obj.s = move(str), but I don't know whether it already works nor whether it's applicable for your case
12:04:33endragorI'm stuck with old Nim anyway, just filed this since I checked it on the devel. Thought if the fix is simple, I could cherry-pick it.
12:12:51Araqendragor: I think I have a fix
12:19:26Araqendragor: https://gist.github.com/Araq/4249e3719eb6e0ff293ed5180646378a if it's urgent use this for lib/system/sysstr.nim
12:20:17endragorAraq: I found workaround for my case, but thank you for the quick fix
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13:14:34shashlickAraq any thoughts on my question above on importcpp and nim c? Thanks in advance.
13:18:28shashlickThe manual states this: the compiler needs to be told to generate C++ (command cpp) for this to work.
13:19:02shashlickBut any reason why this cannot be deciphered from the pragma?
13:19:36shashlickLike the compile pragma knows to use g++ for cpp files
13:20:30leorizebecause it's not implemented? :P
13:20:44PMunchHmm, somethings wrong here http://ix.io/1DAs/Nim
13:22:18shashlickAlso, there isn't a pragma available to instruct Nim to use cpp for a specific Nim file so the only option is to bump the entire project to cpp
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13:23:00shashlickAnd I tried that but ran into various other crashes in code that worked just fine in c mode
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13:29:00Araqshashlick: we did implement this for the same reasons you outlined
13:29:39Araqbut it's tricky and full of edge cases so the new strategy is to simply test C++ mode much better
13:35:35shashlickWhen you say "we did implement this", what do you mean? What was implemented?
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13:56:53Araqthat .importcpp in a nim file triggers "compile to C++" for this file even when 'nim c' was used
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14:17:59shashlickWell it doesn't work
14:18:39shashlickI'll try a minimal test and get back
14:18:42Araqit's not tested, so not surprising
14:19:06Araqwe should remove it again and make people write 'nim cpp'
14:19:19shashlickIf I remember correctly, the link needs to happen with g++ or you get unresolved symbols
14:19:19Araqand if 'nim cpp' breaks, then that's a bug we will fix.
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14:19:42Araqin the compiler code it's called "mixed mode"
14:19:59AraqI don't want to support this mode, we already have enough feature interactions
14:20:10Araqso we need to remove it.
14:21:22shashlickOk let me come back with some real info
14:21:57shashlickI think the change needed is to use g++ for link if a Nim file has importcpp in it
14:23:33shashlickYou will still need to support it since there will always be projects wrapping C and C++ libs
14:24:29Araqwell {.compile: "foo.c".} still calls the C compiler
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16:42:33narimiranwe're at 14,999 commits. who will be the lucky one? :)
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16:52:33Araqme
17:03:11clyybber\o/
17:07:58FromGitter<alehander42> yeah irc
17:08:05FromGitter<alehander42> no prob @bdhb
17:23:57ZevvAh, integer literals for matching Any. 0 matches always, 1 is the any, and 8 matches exactly 8 characters. How sweet
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18:21:32FromGitter<liquid600pgm> dear God, rod's FFI is so crap at this point it induces pain when you look at it
18:22:18FromGitter<liquid600pgm> in the end I hope to have a *much* more simple solution, probably something along the lines of sol2
18:22:46FromGitter<liquid600pgm> but I'll implement rod's std in the low-level FFI for better performance
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18:28:08ZevvFFI to C or to Nim?
18:33:13FromGitter<Varriount> Zevv: Assembly >:D
18:35:07FromGitter<liquid600pgm> Zevv: the FFI from Nim to rod
18:38:18Zevvah, the other way around :)
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18:50:32clyybberliquid600pgm: So you can technically do rod -> nim -> C?
18:51:42sealmovewhat does rod stands for?
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18:55:59sealmoveby rod you mean nimrod (old nim?)
18:57:36clyybbersealmove: He made his own language implemented in nim called rod
18:57:48sealmovewho?
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18:58:36sealmovehum? I'd swear I saw "rod" in a comment in nim codebase. Does it stand for something else too?
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19:13:08clyybbersealmove: Yeah it still appears in some files of the nim compiler, but its referring to nim.
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19:19:50vivuswhat chat-bridge software is being used between here and gitter.im?
19:21:16clyybberI think its matrix?
19:21:20clyybberNot sure tho
19:21:41narimiranvivus: i think it is some bot written in nim, but not sure
19:21:45FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Matrix is a whole different chat service.
19:21:53clyybberOh, nevermind then
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19:22:13FromGitter<kayabaNerve> They have a bridge to connect IRC with Matrix, but I don't believe they have a bot to connect Gitter.
19:22:47FromGitter<kayabaNerve> My assumption would be matterbridge or something custom.
19:26:52shashlickvivus: @oprypin runs the FromGitter matterbridge instance for many channels
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19:56:47FromGitter<liquid600pgm> sealmove: the name was *sort of* derived from Nim's old name
19:57:47FromGitter<liquid600pgm> but at the same time I thought `r` was a good first letter because a) I wanted a Rust-inspired syntax b) my other project also starts with an `r`
19:58:51FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Talking about Rod?
19:58:53FromGitter<kayabaNerve> Respect
20:01:45clyybberc ya bbl
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20:26:50FromDiscord<moerm> Araq - Good to see you. **Compliments** to you and the Nim team!
20:27:30FromDiscord<moerm> I've just finished porting a hasing algorith (something like xxHash) and Nim is within 0.5% of C speed!
20:28:38FromDiscord<moerm> I'm extremely excited and pleased because speed is often an issue in my field and I'm very happy to see how performant Nim has become
20:31:54FromDiscord<moerm> (Yes, I know, stupid me. When I entered I saw Araq. Must be something with discord that absent persons seem to be present. Maybe Araq sees it later. He really deserves that compliment)
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20:45:24FromGitter<liquid600pgm> what kind of binding API would you like to see for rod? I was imagining something like this: ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c8c0ee4fa5b721a1f95f7c8]
20:47:05narimiranmoerm: write a blog post about it ;)
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21:00:52shashlickA-raq is on irc so will see your message
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21:08:58FromDiscord<moerm> narimiran I mentioned it in the forum
21:09:11oprypinshashlick, it's not matterbridge :o, it's https://github.com/oprypin/critter
21:09:21oprypin(and yes, it was down today, sorry about that)
21:09:26FromDiscord<moerm> shashlick Nice. He and the team deserve the compliment.
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21:10:05narimiranmoerm: yeah, i've seen it. but we would like to hear more, i'm sure it would be an interesting read
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21:19:26FromDiscord<moerm> mariman I don't know what you mean ... what would you like to know more? (Plus: It'd probably be useless for people new to Nim)
21:19:33shashlick@oprypin: good to know, thanks!
21:20:40narimiranwe generally need more "high performance nim" kind of stuff, and based on your forum post, what you did sounds like a good candidate
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21:23:54FromDiscord<moerm> Hmmm ... I'm not sure it would be wise to use my example because I used quite some tricks (e.g. emits) and rearranged parts of the algorithm to better fit Nim
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21:51:15FromDiscord<citycide> repl.it (online repl / code playground for baby languages) has added Nim 😀
21:51:20FromDiscord<citycide> https://repl.it/talk/announcements/Two-new-languages-Nim-and-Crystal/11886
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21:52:01FromDiscord<citycide> heh not "baby languages"... I meant "many languages"
21:52:56FromDiscord<citycide> looks like it's running 0.17.2 though
22:11:20solitudesfyikes
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22:19:54FromDiscord<moerm> Bye, see you soon
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