<< 16-03-2019 >>
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01:04:41FromDiscord<citycide> amasad of repl.it says they'll upgrade Nim, so I bet it'll be running 0.19.4 soon
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04:11:11FromDiscord<slymilano> What do you guys think is missing before Nim goes mainstream?
04:11:26FromDiscord<slymilano> Ruby was super unknown before Rails - is this the case with Nim?
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04:41:30FromGitter<deech> I really hope to see it take off on resource constrained platforms that can afford some GC like mobile, tablet etc. It's possible some kind of Flutter competitor is it's killer app.
04:45:49FromGitter<deech> The C/C++ interop is the best I've seen so far. It would be nice if it was able to encode some of the ownership semantics into bindings. Not full on Rust but enough to use C++ somewhat safely.
04:45:50FromDiscord<slymilano> Can you imagine how liberating it'll be when we can use this for our day jobs?
04:48:49FromGitter<deech> Idk, depends. Haskell for me is still the best choice for a majority of use cases but it fails miserably on low power platforms and the FFI is pretty impoverished in comparison.
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04:50:20FromDiscord<slymilano> Hey quick question: Are there any caveats to building cross-platform static binaries? Like, you can't use this library if you want static binaries and such
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05:03:53shashlickif you can do it with C/C++, you can do it with nim
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08:16:15FromDiscord<thulahn> Are there any corporate sponsors of Nim? Or companies that use Nim?
08:25:44FromDiscord<tango> Hey, does anyone here know what Hydrus is?
08:26:02FromDiscord<tango> http://hydrusnetwork.github.io/hydrus/
08:28:19FromGitter<SolitudeSF> it literally explains it on the site
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09:29:55FromDiscord<tango> It is written in Python, and some parts are slow... do you guys think it is possible to make it faster using Nim?
09:34:20Araqyup and interop with Python/C++ will become even easier not that the "new runtime" is getting into shape
09:35:37FromDiscord<tango> Araq ?
09:36:07FromDiscord<tango> Nim has its own runtime?
09:36:34Araqit always had, but it's getting a new one, trimmed down.
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09:37:07FromDiscord<tango> Mmm, so it will be faster than Go and easier to use like Python?
09:38:26FromDiscord<tango> Are we "to the moon"ing this programming language, because I am slightly un-hyped by all the packages that Python has with Conda https://docs.anaconda.com/anaconda/packages/py3.7_linux-64/
09:38:46Araq"to the moon"?
09:39:15FromDiscord<tango> 650 packages... "to the moon" as in crypto slang for "mass adoption"
09:41:46clyybbermass-adaption isn't necessarily good IMO. Adaption by the right people is where it's at; for example status
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09:46:44Araqwell I hope 0.20 will have some impact. Lots of problems are addressed.
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09:51:02FromDiscord<tango> clyybber Python is good as an educational and stats language, and I think Go is competing in the same space of "easy" languages
09:51:35FromDiscord<tango> Nim could easily get some mind share in the youth, I hope that people can go hard on this
09:57:37clyybberI just hope that they won't ask for equivalents of "setup.py" or "__init__.py" or the likes. Otherwise I agree.
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09:58:52clyybberIMO Nim hit's the sweet spot between "easy for simple projects" (fast to write, non-intrusive type system) vs "easy for complex projects" (memory-safety, debugging)
10:01:49clyybberAraq: What do I do to test if my code works with the new runtime? Do I use "--newruntime" or "-d:newruntime" ?
10:04:44Araq--newruntime but don't use it yet, it's not even vaporware
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10:05:34Araqbut hey, just today I made "hello world" work
10:06:56Zevv\o/ congrats araq!
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10:16:15FromDiscord<tango> clybber wait until your library is as mature as Python/Anaconda's, then you will see wonders. Also what do you mean by "init.py" ?
10:16:35FromDiscord<tango> You are not referring to library imports right?
10:21:40clyybberAraq: \o/
10:23:53clyybbertango: I'm referring to subpackages, and generally the weird conventions some languages develop when they get "mainstream"
10:26:03FromDiscord<tango> In order to stop that you need a very large "standard package library" that conform to those rules
10:26:18FromDiscord<tango> think about Machine Learning libs for example
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11:14:29FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> Since IoT is developing very fast, I think we should work to make it easy to program an Arduino or ESP8266 board with Nim. It is already possible but not very straight-forward. We could create a library with some built-in Arduino functions, an extension for an editor (VSCode seems to be the most used) which compiles Nim programs with the right config and uploads the compiled program to the selected board.
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11:19:27FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> It is already available an extension for VSCode that builds and uploads a .ino program to Arduino-compatible boards. Link: https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode-arduino
11:21:42FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> Nim on ESP8266 experiment: https://github.com/TomCrypto/caret
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11:43:34federico3BaldEagleX02: please comment/vote https://github.com/nim-lang/needed-libraries/issues/84
11:48:23federico3BaldEagleX02: I ran Nim on different micros. The problem is reaching a critical mass of contributors to maintain a library
11:48:25dom96yes, please create a library
11:48:49dom96I've promised my book readers that I would write an article about embedded dev in Nim. A library would help out a lot
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12:17:15FromDiscord<tango> https://github.com/nim-lang/needed-libraries/issues/65
12:17:20FromDiscord<tango> We nee magic
12:17:24FromDiscord<tango> We need magic
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12:53:41clyybberHow can I make:
12:53:53clyybberfor i in 0..10:
12:53:59clyybber i -= 1
12:54:02clyybberwork?
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12:54:38clyybberimagine the "i -= 1" being in some if case, so the loop will terminate
12:55:36clyybbers/case/block
12:58:30clyybberI guess a while loop works, but I wonder if theres a more "beautiful" way of doing this...
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13:19:08Araqmutating the iteration variable inside the loop in a non-standard pattern should be ugly.
13:19:28Araqnothing beautiful to see here, it screams for a refactoring
13:23:29clyybberYeah, I agree. Thats what you get for porting dart code ugh.
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13:45:26FromGitter<danielecook> How do I define an iterator type?
13:45:41FromGitter<danielecook> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c8cfe04dfc69a1454a36616]
13:45:50FromGitter<liquid600pgm> https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#iterators-and-the-for-statement
13:46:21FromGitter<danielecook> I'm working with the `hts-nim` library and want to use it as an iterator, but conditionally allow the user to query the region.
13:47:17FromGitter<danielecook> Heres the full code: ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c8cfe648aa66959b61d84fe]
13:47:39FromGitter<danielecook> I'm not sure what to set `var records: ` type to
13:47:53FromGitter<danielecook> But it's an iterator of the same time in both cases
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13:57:08FromGitter<liquid600pgm> you can use an `if` expression in that case
13:57:46FromGitter<liquid600pgm> ```var records = ⏎ if region.len > 0: ⏎ v.query(region) ⏎ else: ⏎ v``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c8d00dadfc69a1454a378b7]
14:03:30FromGitter<danielecook> oh cool
14:03:51FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> @dom96, @federico3
14:04:52FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> I created a repository to work on the Arduino library https://github.com/BaldEagleX02/Arduino-Nim
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14:06:01FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> I am going to add to my repo anyone interested and willing to help
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14:17:23solitudesfdid you check this out? https://github.com/gokr/ardunimo
14:21:57FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> @SolitudeSF Thank you!
14:23:07FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> I made the first commit to the repo. I copied TomCrypto’s caret repo as a starting point for our work
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14:31:15ephjahow's it going?
14:31:24FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> Is anyone interested in contributing to that project?
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14:36:39ephjaforgot I was a moderator on discord. barely needs moderatin' though
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16:31:11FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> I think we should port this libraru
16:31:55FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> I think we should port this library: ArduinoCore-avr (https://github.com/arduino/ArduinoCore-avr)
16:32:13FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> It contains the standard Arduino library
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16:34:35shashlickIt's all c++, why not just wrap it
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16:55:51clyybberYeah wrapping this https://github.com/arduino/ArduinoCore-API should do
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17:07:58FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> That’s exactly what I thought when I saw it
17:08:37FromDiscord<moerm> Hello everyone
17:08:44FromGitter<liquid600pgm> hello!
17:08:50FromDiscord<moerm> Guys, I want to tell you right away here:
17:09:04FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> > *<shashlick>* It's all c++, why not just wrap it <
17:09:15FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> Exactly what I thought
17:09:35FromDiscord<moerm> I polished my code (both C and Nim) and compiled again - but this time with --opt:speed (yesterday was a simple -d:release build)
17:10:04FromDiscord<moerm> And BANG: **Nim code is 2-3% FASTER than the C implementation!
17:10:18FromDiscord<moerm> **
17:10:23leorizeactually -d:release is better than --opt:speed :P
17:10:31FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> @Clyybber How do we wrap all that code?
17:10:48FromDiscord<moerm> leorize No. opt:speed is better
17:10:49FromGitter<liquid600pgm> does anyone have an answer to this? https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/4720#29460
17:11:21FromDiscord<moerm> I'm looking forward to the next "smart guy" telling us how Nim is slow ...
17:11:32leorizemoerm: here's my scientific proof https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/blob/devel/config/nim.cfg#L55
17:11:35leorize:P
17:12:43FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> @leorize is right
17:13:15FromDiscord<moerm> I don't care. I see the numbers, I see the effective result
17:13:34FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> the flag -d:release includes —opt:speed and other optimisations
17:13:40FromDiscord<moerm> Plus: I know my code but I'm not a guru in Nim compiler settings
17:14:09FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> How could —opt:speed be faster than -d:release?
17:14:21FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> `@if release: ⏎ opt:speed ⏎ @end`
17:14:46FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> Plus: `@if release or quick: ⏎ obj_checks:off ⏎ field_checks:off ⏎ range_checks:off ⏎ bound_checks:off ... [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c8d2f06dfc69a1454a4b6fc]
17:15:11FromDiscord<moerm> Funny. I'm joyfully telling you that some very performance sensitive Code (a hashing algo) is FASTER IN NIM THAN IN C ... and all you have to comment is Nim compiler parameter details ...
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17:16:17FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> Does anyone know how to wrap an entire C++ library in Nim quickly?
17:16:18solitudesfthis is epic
17:18:00clyybberBaldEagleX02: You can try https://github.com/nimterop/nimterop, https://github.com/nim-lang/c2nim or https://github.com/fragcolor-xyz/nimline
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17:19:00clyybbermoerm: What hashing algorithm?
17:19:25FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> @Clyybber Thank you!
17:19:34FromDiscord<moerm> something similar to xxHash
17:22:55FromDiscord<moerm> One that also does >1GB/s in *small* input (8 Bytes). Because the impressive numbers in the well known comparisons are often treacherous
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17:24:07FromDiscord<moerm> (and doing that also on 10+ years old processors)
17:24:24clyybbermoerm: Based on xxh3?
17:24:50clyybbermoerm: No vector instructons?
17:25:15FromDiscord<moerm> * laughing* I did, of course, read about xxh3 but, no, it's not xxh3 which I consider still immature
17:25:34FromDiscord<moerm> Nope, no vector instructions. No avx
17:25:42clyybberNo SSE either?
17:26:20FromDiscord<moerm> In my field I need *mature* algorithms that provide good performance on 32 bit and old processors, too
17:26:40FromDiscord<moerm> (Nope, no sse either, although that wouldn't be a problem)
17:26:45clyybberWhat means mature in this case? Battle-tested?
17:27:24FromDiscord<moerm> Yes, that. And smhasher surviving (not the old appleby one but the newer one)
17:27:43clyybberHuh, do you have a link to the newer smhasher fork?
17:28:40FromDiscord<moerm> https://github.com/rurban/smhasher that's what we consider the one to pass today
17:30:03FromDiscord<moerm> But I also needed low latency. That's something many "cool" current hashes don't offer.
17:30:25clyybberThanks, this is the one demerphq's fork is based on, which seperates initializing and actual hashing, but it seems that rurban's fork is at least still maintained
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17:30:37FromDiscord<moerm> Latency is the one factor that makes or brakes your day wehen [D]DOSed
17:32:15FromDiscord<moerm> As little as 6 months ago I was still used to Nim implementation being about 10% (and sometimes even 15%) slower than C implementations.
17:33:01FromDiscord<moerm> So having something like a modern very fast hashing algo implementation in Nim being actually faster than in C is very significant in my eyes
17:33:51clyybbermoerm: Is it on github?
17:34:44FromDiscord<moerm> Nope. a) most of my work is payed closed source, b) the open source that I do is not on github. I dislike github and I don't trust it
17:35:18FromDiscord<moerm> (I use fossil whenever I can)
17:35:45clyybberI don't like github either... was on the verge of writing "git hosting service"
17:36:21clyybberthough I guess even then fossil doesn't count :P
17:37:35FromDiscord<moerm> I won't detail it as it's considered uncool and even politically incorrect but (seen from my field, security) I think what I call the "american software culture/approach) has failed us big time.
17:38:16FromDiscord<moerm> E.g. I don't care about "fun". software dev. must not be "fun". It must be proper engineering and execution
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17:39:13FromDiscord<moerm> Btw, one of the major reason I IMMENSLY value Araqs work is because Nim makes it quite comfortable to write *good (as in quality/reliability) code*
17:39:25clyybberI agree
17:39:55FromDiscord<moerm> IMO Araqs work is by far more significant than that of 1 thousand big mouthed "cool" "gurus" (usually american)
17:40:33clyybberI don't think though, that nationality plays a big role there, though I am also not informed enough to say that with confidence.
17:40:52FromDiscord<moerm> IMO Araq has designed and built an almost perfect sweet spot between Ada and C/C++/Rust and all the other derivatives and wannabees
17:41:44FromDiscord<moerm> Yes, nationality (socialization, education, "culture", etc) sems to play a major role based on what I've seen
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17:42:38FromDiscord<moerm> There *are*, of course, a few excellent american software engineers but generally speaking ... oh well
17:42:39FromGitter<Varriount> moerm: in the (admittedly small) number of companies I've worked for in the US, being a programmer is largely just another job.
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17:43:31FromGitter<Varriount> It's only at big silicon valley places (like Microsoft and Google) where you get a ton of miscellaneous perks.
17:43:32FromDiscord<moerm> Varriount I have some concrete experience myself. Yes, developer is just another job (and usually brutally driven by product manament)
17:45:34FromDiscord<moerm> Varriount I'd put it like this: even in the silicon valley the ratio of *really* good devs to bla bla gurus is unpleasant
17:45:51FromGitter<Varriount> Huh.
17:46:09FromDiscord<moerm> ?
17:46:14FromGitter<Varriount> (I wonder if I'm a bla-bla guru)
17:46:55FromDiscord<moerm> Oh, the corridors at google, etc, are filled with bla bla "gurus"
17:47:26FromDiscord<moerm> You? I don't think so. The bla bla gurus tend to be interested in Nim (or any other *real* alternative)
17:47:44FromDiscord<moerm> sorry, "tend NOT to be ..."
17:50:28FromDiscord<moerm> (and: There is a reason that Microsoft sunk big money into INRIA cooperation ...)
17:51:28FromDiscord<moerm> And btw, the man who gave us sublime editor support can't be a bla bla guru. He must be a good guy 😉
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17:58:09FromGitter<BaldEagleX02> @moerm I agree, @Araq has done a really good work. Nim is an excellent programming language in terms of speed and readability!
18:06:26FromDiscord<moerm> More importantly, it is a *well reflected* work.
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18:22:31FromDiscord<moerm> See you soon
18:23:19I_Right_IHi all, I am new to nim. I have been looking for a simple Synchronous UDP peer to peer example. Something like -> var socket = newSocket(AF_INET, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_UDP)
18:23:20I_Right_Isocket.recv()
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18:25:11I_Right_Iusing UDP doing you just start using socket.recv() and all is good
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18:34:44clyybbermoerm C ya
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19:12:08shashlickI'm not a fan of generalizations
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20:20:01FromGitter<arnetheduck> @shashlick, btw, in terms of creating wrapper libraries, have you thought about naming? ie it's often useful to split wrappers into two parts: one that takes care of the ABI only, and another that provides a pleasant Nim experience on top
20:20:25dom96I_Right_I: I don't think one exists, but you can look up one in C and pretty easily translate that to Nim
20:22:18solitudesfI_Right_I, https://github.com/treeform/netpipe/blob/master/src/netpipe.nim#L128 something like this?
20:25:40dom96That's a cool library, but I wonder: isn't this almost a complete reimplementation of TCP? treeform? :)
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20:47:34I_Right_IActually I figured out how to use UDP in the standard library "net module". It's quite simply. As of now it might be better for me to bind enet. But I am going to research this further.
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21:01:42dom96I believe enet is already bound
21:01:50dom96But you should really use the stdlib if you can
21:10:00I_Right_Idom96: I agree. Even if it's just for the fact of keeping portability simple.
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21:15:30federico3without congestion control? meeh
21:22:36shashlick@arnetheduck: I've always wanted to but considering I don't use these libs, never gotten that far
21:22:58shashlickBut both scintilla and nng were super easy to use as is
21:23:17shashlickI only look at their docs
21:25:58federico3t
21:27:07shashlickI'm hoping to add as much into nimterop to make most standard stuff seamless, reducing the need for lib specific stuff
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21:28:15FromGitter<arnetheduck> mm.. did you manage to get nimterop to output a nim file?
21:28:48FromGitter<arnetheduck> ie so you don't have to reparse the c file and reconstruct it ever time?
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21:34:09shashlickYa it is cached using gorge
21:34:21shashlickOr you could just redirect to a file
21:48:29FromGitter<arnetheduck> @shashlick ⏎ ⏎ ```code paste, see link``` ⏎ ⏎ :/ that's sqlite, as downloaded from their home page.. bug or wrong usage? [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c8d6f2d9d9cc8114ad0b4e2]
21:50:34FromGitter<arnetheduck> which is funny, because that part shouldn't even be parsed:
21:50:47FromGitter<arnetheduck> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/nim-lang/Nim?at=5c8d6fb72f6ded0abbf48c71]
22:15:50shashlickYou need to specify the right cDefines
22:15:58shashlickHaven't looked in detail
22:16:45FromGitter<arnetheduck> well, I didn't specify any, specifically not *MSC*VER or *BORLAND* so it shouldn't go into that branch
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22:16:54shashlickAlso can use cPlugin to override those names
22:17:34shashlickI'll check in an hour, but it might be pulling some standard lib stuff
22:17:37shashlickDid you pull the latest
22:17:46FromGitter<arnetheduck> fresh install
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22:21:56shashlickOk I'll check in a bit
22:22:10shashlickSee the tests for how to fix the _ issues
22:22:11FromGitter<arnetheduck> well, it does include `stdarg.h` which might contain more of those ints etc
22:22:17shashlickWith cPlugin
22:22:35shashlickYa I had fixed that on Linux in last push, which os are you on
22:23:53FromGitter<arnetheduck> linux :)
22:24:17FromGitter<arnetheduck> commit 295e838bc18aa52c5213ed2172f615511bf7a906 (HEAD -> master, origin/master, origin/HEAD)
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22:38:35FromGitter<viell> hay guys..how can i plugin nim to my visual studio?
22:45:17FromGitter<viell> no one knows?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:49:52I_Right_Iviell: When I installed Visual code on linux I believe it just a plugin to intergrade it.
22:50:24FromGitter<viell> no I'm working with Windows vers.
22:52:48I_Right_Iviell: try https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=kosz78.nim
22:55:03I_Right_Iviell: I don't know how up to date this pages links are -> https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/Editor-Support
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23:07:13shashlickVisual studio code has one of the best integrations
23:07:41shashlickBut your question sounded like the full fledged visual studio
23:09:34FromGitter<genotrance> @arnetheduck you might want to pass the preprocess flag to toast so that all the preprocessing is done before the Nim conversion
23:10:02FromGitter<genotrance> Otherwise all the code will get converted as is
23:11:04FromGitter<genotrance> That's why the __int64 is getting pulled in
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23:14:54shashlick-p or --preprocess
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23:21:51FromGitter<arnetheduck> -p worked!
23:22:10shashlickPeace
23:22:39shashlicksqlite3.h doesn't seem to have any procs in it
23:22:48shashlickAt least looking on my phone
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