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| 12:20:28 | dom96_ | Some nice nim benchmarks here https://github.com/kostya/benchmarks |
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| 13:04:15 | gokr1 | kostya: Nice benchmarks |
| 13:04:48 | kostya | :) |
| 13:05:32 | gokr1 | Sidenote: We were talking about hosting the other day, and we are hunting for an alternative to Cloudsigma - and Upcloud.com seems very nice, I think we will start using them. |
| 13:05:53 | gokr1 | Nothing particularly wrong with Cloudsigma, but they are a tad expensive. |
| 13:06:20 | gokr1 | kostya: There was one or two that "stood out" as not so competitive in Nim. |
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| 13:09:20 | kostya | im not good at nim, may be implement not so efficient |
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| 13:18:49 | EXetoC | try profiling it |
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| 15:25:57 | mastodon_agha | hello guys |
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| 15:40:56 | Araq0 | hi mastodon_agha welcome |
| 15:41:07 | mastodon_agha | thanks |
| 15:42:23 | mastodon_agha | thanks for welcoming me. there is stuff I like about nimrod (especially syntax, macros and static typing) but I am very concerned about general lack of notability (too few people in it). |
| 15:43:16 | mastodon_agha | Basically it looks like the language I would absolutely love to program in if it were more notable. But it isn't |
| 15:44:49 | Araq0 | well don't worry. I got a Nim-related job now and 1.0 is not too much away |
| 15:45:00 | Araq0 | the future looks bright |
| 15:45:21 | EXetoC | yeah? that's nice |
| 15:45:48 | Araq0 | *too far away |
| 15:46:47 | mastodon_agha | My recommendation is to port it to net. Net framework was recently open sourced and made available to *nix operating systems. Then you would have the power of full net framework library. |
| 15:46:59 | mastodon_agha | seems like the best move |
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| 15:48:45 | mastodon_agha | it would improve marketing positioning considerably. People would think of Nimrod as C# with friendlier syntax and standalone compiler more as a welcoming bonus (I know it isn't but that's how it would be seen). That's my suggestion, anyway :) |
| 15:49:17 | Araq0 | no, targetting .NET is completely unrealistic |
| 15:50:02 | mastodon_agha | I think I saw that net target is planned on the website somewhere ... |
| 15:50:14 | mastodon_agha | but okay. that's just my suggestion :) |
| 15:50:15 | EXetoC | I much prefer more portable targets, but it would it be possible for some to write such a generator? |
| 15:51:39 | Araq0 | mastodon_agha: we'll get better c++ interop instead |
| 15:51:42 | mastodon_agha | it would probably mean losing control over garbage control which isn't good |
| 15:51:51 | mastodon_agha | *I mean for net |
| 15:52:14 | Araq0 | not many languages offer that and there are lots of libraries in c++ |
| 15:52:17 | mastodon_agha | Araq0: better c++ interop sounds great, but I think it is freakisly hard to do |
| 15:53:08 | Araq0 | it's much less work than targeting .NET |
| 15:53:33 | EXetoC | doesn't C have plenty of libs too? |
| 15:54:03 | Araq0 | EXetoC: 3d engines and UI libraries are mostly in c++, not C |
| 15:54:36 | mastodon_agha | agreed. Ability to use stuff like bullet3d and Ogre would be welcome |
| 15:56:29 | mastodon_agha | Rust aslo has some nice things in it, but its syntax is ugly as sin and "no GC at all" smells like fanaticism in my opinion. |
| 15:57:20 | EXetoC | they have no GC now? |
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| 15:57:48 | Araq0 | they have one in the stdlib iirc, but the stdlib must not use it |
| 15:57:56 | Araq0 | kind of like D these days |
| 15:58:23 | mastodon_agha | well apparently it is available as a library or something (I don't use Rust) and is undersirable. Also it has super painful compile lifetime checking. |
| 16:00:12 | Araq0 | I'm not sure it's super painful, but I'm not convinced it's necessary since it promotes coding patterns where explicit 'free' is perfectly tractable |
| 16:00:44 | EXetoC | I think I'd like to focus on promoting portability for libs, but one man can only do so much |
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| 16:01:39 | mastodon_agha | Well I haven't tried to be honest (and I am generally more php/ruby/python guy than system language guy), but from what I saw in tutorials it is very convoluted. |
| 16:02:38 | EXetoC | I'm currently working on an EO (object system) parser (for binding EFL and Elementary, and hopefully other libs in the future) |
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| 16:07:10 | mastodon_agha | Where is nimrod used now? What are best projects? |
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| 16:08:54 | EXetoC | I wonder if a similar API can be made that would allow for people to parse Nim and then generate bindings for other languages |
| 16:09:08 | EXetoC | -for |
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| 16:11:30 | EXetoC | mastodon_agha: There doesn't seem to be much else other than the official tools |
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| 16:12:46 | EXetoC | many of which contain a lot of code |
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| 16:14:54 | mastodon_agha | bummer. I am rooting for you guys... but I can't help you much. |
| 16:16:26 | EXetoC | they are real world projects, but quantity is also an important factor |
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| 16:18:26 | Araq0 | I know of a few projects who use it in a commercial setting but won't talk about them |
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| 16:19:05 | mastodon_agha | they are hiding because language is too obscure? Well at least they are using it... |
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| 16:20:48 | Araq0 | mastodon_agha: closed source development is very much a real thing and we don't even have a "powered by Nim" offer |
| 16:21:16 | Araq0 | where companies could donate money and will be listed on the homepage |
| 16:21:29 | mastodon_agha | I see |
| 16:23:52 | Araq0 | that said, it surely is annoying that people cannot even be bothered to fix simple bugs or improve the documentation |
| 16:24:31 | Araq0 | there are 300 open issues and yet people come here and ask "oooh how can I help?" |
| 16:25:06 | Araq0 | here is a hint guys: this issue list can be seen as a huge todo list |
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| 16:38:30 | Araq0 | mastodon_agha: there are also design mistakes in .NET that are essentially unfixable |
| 16:39:23 | Araq0 | my favourite example: DLLs are resolved when the first method of it is actually called |
| 16:41:12 | Araq0 | this is super annoying for long running processes when the DLL is rarely invoked |
| 16:44:23 | mastodon_agha | okay. Don't take me wrong, I was just saying things that seemed to be helpful. I will take a look at 300 open issues when I have time. |
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| 17:01:28 | Araq0 | mastodon_agha: well most of these are feature requests |
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| 17:38:47 | gokr1 | mastodon_agha: Nim has very good interoperability and performance through the C ecosystem. |
| 17:39:30 | gokr1 | As Araq says, supporting C++ through more advanced wrapper tools will open up even more libraries. |
| 17:41:59 | mastodon_agha | right, opening up as many libraries as possible (in some way) is the only way. |
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| 18:26:32 | gokr | mastodon_agha: We are going all in on Nim for our product development. |
| 18:27:05 | mastodon_agha | gokr: nice to hear. What product? |
| 18:27:25 | gokr | www.3dicc.com |
| 18:27:45 | gokr | Collaborative virtual reality |
| 18:28:42 | ldlework | huh |
| 18:28:51 | gokr | I have also written several articles on Nim recently |
| 18:29:46 | gokr | I am on my phone and battery is running out |
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| 18:30:28 | gokr | but check goran.krampe.se/category/nim |
| 18:32:47 | gokr | yeah, our website is ugly. But the system is pretty cool. |
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| 18:58:47 | ldlework | gokr: virtual offices are holding back the metaverse |
| 18:58:48 | ldlework | there I said it |
| 18:59:00 | ldlework | I still love you though gokr :) |
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| 19:16:45 | Araq | ping Varriount |
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| 19:31:04 | wan | Araq: awesome to read that you got a Nim-related job! Is it still at k*****a or were you hired elsewhere? |
| 19:31:28 | Araq | elsewhere |
| 19:31:40 | wan | (I want a Nim job too) |
| 19:32:22 | wan | I'll have to as gokr when he comes back |
| 19:32:26 | wan | ask* |
| 19:33:59 | EXetoC | me too |
| 19:36:37 | wan | Araq: Is it a video-game company? I wonder if big studios will ever switch away from C++... |
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| 20:19:43 | Matthias247 | Araq: cool thing, congratulations! Finally got away from Java? ;) |
| 20:21:40 | Araq | I used Java only tangentially anyway |
| 20:22:26 | Araq | it's amazing how bad the language / ecosystem still is though |
| 20:23:38 | Araq | the endless directory structures drive me insane |
| 20:23:38 | Matthias247 | he, that's one thing I'm always wondering. People say they want JVM because of the ecosystem, but I find event the standard libaries much worse than .NET |
| 20:24:09 | Araq | Classpath hell, endless directories, crappy build systems |
| 20:24:28 | Araq | frameworks instead of libraries |
| 20:24:38 | Araq | it's a never ending clusterfuck |
| 20:24:55 | Araq | and nothing ever changes |
| 20:25:24 | Araq | you still install eclipse plugins via the "help" menu |
| 20:26:34 | * | gour jsut read backlog.. |
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| 20:27:10 | gour | Araq: congrats for the job!! i'm very happy about it...now nim will sweep the floor with competition ;) |
| 20:27:40 | Araq | er thanks |
| 20:27:46 | Matthias247 | but honestly, I would use pretty much any language if I could trade that in for zero useless meetings and proccess bullshit and intelligent colleagues (that work with use instead of asking only stupid things and then letting all the actual work to you) |
| 20:28:07 | Araq | it wasn't my intention to announce anything here really |
| 20:28:13 | * | gour switched today to suse |
| 20:28:19 | * | Araq needs to be more careful |
| 20:28:36 | EXetoC | quick, remove the logs and spam the channel |
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| 20:28:48 | Matthias247 | don't worry, someone will put in on hackernews soon ;) |
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| 20:30:55 | Araq | Matthias247: hey, useless meetings are cool |
| 20:31:41 | Matthias247 | I was in a 9hour sprint review and planning meeting with 25 people on monday |
| 20:32:05 | Matthias247 | where nearly everbody was only some kind of project manager and had no clue what he was talking about |
| 20:32:16 | Matthias247 | absolute waste of time |
| 20:32:28 | EXetoC | -.- |
| 20:34:30 | Araq | often everybody has a laptop in these meetings |
| 20:34:39 | Araq | that helps tremendously |
| 20:35:50 | Araq | you can then work on Nim instead of listening ... *cough* |
| 20:36:50 | Matthias247 | yeah, that makes them even more effective :) |
| 20:37:22 | Matthias247 | I'm now quite good at ignoring what everyone around me is talking and only staring at the screen |
| 20:37:42 | Matthias247 | then you get out a few hours later and think: What have they talked about?!? |
| 20:41:46 | EXetoC | Araq: what do you think about having an API for generating library bindings to various languages? it might require some thought when it comes to generics for example |
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| 20:42:20 | EXetoC | The idea is to generate C libs for example, with the convenience of writing them in Nim |
| 20:43:36 | Araq | EXetoC: well there are people who do exactly that via --header |
| 20:44:06 | Araq | we have an API to parse Nim, compiler/parser.nim |
| 20:44:21 | Araq | it just needs to be cleaned up |
| 20:44:22 | EXetoC | oh |
| 20:44:34 | EXetoC | other things will be needed, but I'll have to try that out first |
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| 20:54:25 | EXetoC | the procs don't appear in the header |
| 20:54:53 | EXetoC | but there are many things that need to be dealt with. the nimbase dependency for example |
| 20:56:14 | EXetoC | and garbage collection and so on |
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| 21:01:49 | Araq | well you have to exportc so that are put into the header |
| 21:02:18 | EXetoC | yep. used the wrong pragma |
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| 21:03:08 | EXetoC | I got the inspiration from this https://phab.enlightenment.org/w/eolian/, which I mentioned before. it might be necessary to include similar metadata, but not as much of it I think, if macro/pragma-based for example |
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| 21:20:10 | EXetoC | will the new forum be used soon? |
| 21:20:58 | EXetoC | I'll just create a temporary account. it's fine |
| 21:21:13 | ldlework | EXetoC: hello! |
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| 21:26:12 | EXetoC | ldlework: hi |
| 21:26:30 | ldlework | EXetoC: do you have any idea how I can easily pay you? |
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| 21:41:11 | gokr1 | ldlework: Our system is a direct descendant of the Croquet system, which indeed was born as a metaverse system (linking persistent distributed 3D worlds together using portals). |
| 21:41:34 | gokr1 | The architecture has several interesting characteristics. |
| 21:41:40 | ldlework | gokr1: I know we talked, remember |
| 21:41:46 | gokr1 | yeah |
| 21:41:56 | gokr1 | Sorry :) |
| 21:42:00 | ldlework | I was just making a joke |
| 22:02:21 | Araq | Varriount: just fyi I'm holding back patches because I have no "diff" view ... :P |
| 22:03:00 | Araq | you can show it per machine as a first step |
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